The Old Neverending PublishAmerica Thread (Publish America)

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Jean Marie

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AHHH

Is David not dotting the 'i?' Having the flu really sucks, especially when you see something like that
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now I really feel like cr**. And not to mention, I already spent a bunch of money on a new computer; my VISA's broken as a result. Thank God!!

I was at Borders earlier and they're ordering more of my books. Again, thank God, I can't afford it. Never have bought any of my own books and won't. Also, I didn't get that email yet
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Patricia

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Memphis Ed said:
BTW...Changling's book is terrific.

Yes it is.

Ed there are many of our books that are terrific. Too bad, we lost them to PA.

The poor "editing" and "business model" precedes us to the bookstores.

I have forgiven myself for being an idiot -- my next one will go to Lulu before it goes to PA. (But I fully expect it to be picked up by one of the legitimate houses).
 
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And I raise you one so what.

NicoleJLeBoeuf said:
And so what. So what?

So PA lied. They commit false advertising. They bear false witness. They lie, they lie, they lie.

Mreddin was responding to the suggestion that maybe PA is an OK choice for those who just want a cheap vanity press to give them a couple copies. Mreddin's point is that, just because what PA actually do may be a good fit for some, PA is not less culpable for their egregious acts of false advertising.

Thank you for attempting to clear up what Mr. Reddin had to say. I'm sure he appreciates you speaking up on his behalf.

But again I say, so what to your so what. Unless a court of law or Ebay says the man selling fake gold was a scam, those people who bought into his lies, lies, lies, were suckers. Legally, PA has not been declared culpable for their egregious acts of false advertising or, for that matter, anything else yet. Morally, now that may be a different issue, but case closed till there is a case against them.

If you are a former PA author, suckered in by PA, why do you want to continue to beat yourself and others up over a poor choice you've made? The harshest lessons in life are the most valuable, they teach us what to avoid when certain situations present themselves again. So let it go and move on, all the more wiser having had the experience.

Sorry to be so mouthy here, got your fingers on that ignore button yet?
 

MartyKay

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The CrookBook would be interesting to read, just to see what Curlem has to say about the "Bashers". Like, anything actionable... :)

And its almost a perfect resource for an "Anti" book... I'm sure there is tons of material in it to contradict and show to be blantantly false.

Unfortunately, to buy one you'd have to pay PA money. :(

Dolan said:
BTW, it doesn't mean diddly to have your book chosen as the PA book of the month. Totally useless. It is really quite stipid.

Gee.. I wonder when the CrookBook is #1!!
 
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CJWilkes

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Truce

There was no intention of offending anyone. I enjoy all three places because I can learn from all three and visit with good friends. I just think that AW is not any worse than CB in the anger that is being vented about PA. I can fully understand and appreciate the feelings, and I hope you understand that it was just my opinion. After all, the creativity here does not center around making up songs about PA. That, again, is just my opinion and feelings on the matter. Both places have much to offer and it is neat to visit with friends.

It is just sad to see labels being thrown everywhere. I don't think that AW is a PA bashing site. It is a forum that is designed, much like CB is, to educate and meet new individuals. This particular thread is a make aware or see what has happened to other unsuspecting, and very innocent authors.

I hope you can accept my appologies if I have offended you in anyway, but I see things differently and am not neccessarily sorry for that. :) Truce :)

C.J.

Passionate N.Y. Lady said:
Wow! Me thinks thou does protest too much! Why would anyone want to attack Boob for speaking their mind if there isn’t truth in what they are saying? I know this is a private message board; owned and operated by a select few, who have the right to run their board anyway they see fit, and for whatever purpose, but to sit there and deny this in NOT a board, or at least a post to bash PA, is just wrong. This is a post to trash PA, annihilate it, if possible, and, though, maybe not intentionally, indirectly insult the authors who have books with them. There are many here who have come together to do PA in. I, personally, could care less. I signed on the dotted line, I’ll live with it, tough sh**, I’ll move on. Though I am not a lawyer, PA’s contract is ironclad. They have the legal loopholes in place, the law on their side, and they have the funds; made off their authors, to back them up in a court of law. Others in the past have tried to do PA in, and they are still on the merry go round of trying to get out from under. Even various media have tried taking on PA, but to no avail, as the number of authors submitting manuscripts to them has risen sharply. And, where is PA during all this? They still thriving and doing what they have always done, publishing books, good and bad. Having said that, I truly wish those of you taking on this endeavor; to bring PA to their knees, much luck.

CJ Wilkes, I know you. I like you and I admire your writing, but you mentioned The Corner Bar. Well, let me make something perfectly clear. The Corner Bar was not created to bash PA. It was solely created to assist, not insult or destroy the hopes and dreams of authors who are disappointed by PA and tied to their name for years to come. It was designed as a meeting place for them to openly express their concerns, get support, and put their creative heads and their hearts together to try to overcome all the negativity that surrounds them as PA authors because of posts such as this one, whose negative web sites flood the internet anytime someone puts in the PublishAmerica name. For those stuck in the middle, where do they go? To the PA boards for support? Nope, because those who are willing to address their concerns; honestly, are most likely to have their posts deleted and get banned. So, they come to AW seeking help. Do they get it? Yes and no, as many come away more confused. You know what happens to them? They shut down, go away from all of it, and deal with their shame and pain in solitude. The Corner Bar allows them to come in, anonymously, and share their feelings with other authors who can understand what they are going through. Authors who are teeter-tottering on the fence of indecision in their decision to sigh with PA. Unlike this particular AW post, The Corner Bar at least attempts to show the pros and cons of PA. If you haven’t been there in awhile, go and look again. There are support groups, forums to come up with ideas on how to get around the bad publicity, if that is possible, writing exercises, and forums where you just can unwind with friends.

Look, who knows what is going to happen to PA. In the meantime, what is the point of sitting around and wallowing in our own self pity for having made a mistake, for those who think that way? What the people here are trying to do, may take years and years, and for those on the sidelines, it’s time to move on. The folks at the Corner Bar are trying to make the best of a bad situation, that is all, nothing more or nothing less. There is no ulterior motive to bring PA down, or for that matter, elevate to something it is not.

Jena, if this post makes it, thank you. I fully appreciate you allowing me to speak up. I know it is not easy for you to play nurse maid to those of us who come here from PA to vent and express our thoughts on their policies. You have a wonderful site, full of useful information for up and coming authors, and I salute you for your efforts and your graciousness.
 

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Ed Williams

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Ah, morning time in the Land of Poz....

...where the "Crook Book's" sales are giving Wee Willie the blahs...

Ah, well, one thing about all this Meiner's stuff, and it's a very comforting thought. Meiners is releasing his pro-PA diatribe to a very limited audience, that of his own authors. What are they claiming now, 13,000 or so? On the other hand, our take on PA and its business practices has seen the pages of the Washington Post, the LA Times, the Associated Press, and more. Kind of a bigger pond. In true terms, what Meiners is doing is like kicking an elephant right in its big toe - might sting a little, but really, in the end, who cares?

Also, for those interested, I have an email from our friend Shemp/BJO which pretty much reveals this guy for the loser/mental giant that he is. Those of you interested can find the juicy parts over on the Shemp thread. (I just took this down, putting it up would expose a fine person to some needless harassment, so there's no point in it. It's just the same old HB rant, anyway).

Uncle Jim, why don't we work together on an anti-PA book, just think, we could use a pic of ourselves enjoying a hamdog as the cover art. Meiner's book could be our napkins!
 
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CJ, no truce required.

Jeff, thank you for not ignoring my post, seeing as you read it to the very end.

CJ, there is no apology needed, nor a truce required. I was not taken aback by your comment, just wanted to set the record straight for those here who have not visited the CB. You are always welcomed at The Corner Bar.
Don't be mislead by the intent and purpose of this thread, it is hard core PA bashing. Jena herself said, "I don't think anyone was denying that we are anti-PA. The vast majority here do indeed want PA to straighten up and tell the truth or go out of business."

I have a great respect for Jena, and I am appreciative of AW and all I have learned here, and I applaud them for what they are trying to do with PA. I even highly recommend this site for all the good it has to offer new authors, it is a wealth of information. I hadn't a clue about the real "traditional" publishing industry prior to coming here, but it bothers me to see PA authors continually being-indirectly-the brunt of jokes, called non-authors, sheep, dreamers, and stooge followers. We are just regular people who made a decision, right or wrong, and no one should be ridiculed-indirectly-for the choices they make in life.

I feel I have worn out my welcome here, I will not post again. Once again, Jena, thank you for your hospitality. Good luck to all of you with your angst and actions against PA, and with your books. I wish you luck. I am Georgie Girl Moderator at The Corner Bar. (Otherwise known as g.l. parker author of 'SADIE' 180 pages for $16.95, $20.00 with shipping and handling. A dull, overpriced, poorly edited little book about my Irish family and the building of Manhattan and my ancestors connection to it! ) There, now you don't have to go look it up for yourselves, and I've already critiqued it for you. I'll even throw in my website. www.freewebs.com/sadiebook1 Please feel free to have a laugh, uh, a look. Oh, and don't forget to sign my guest book. You can undo the ignore buttons now...
 

Sparhawk

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Ed Williams said:
...where the "Crook Book's" sales are giving Wee Willie the blahs...

Ah, well, one thing about all this Meiner's stuff, and it's a very comforting thought. Meiners is releasing his pro-PA diatribe to a very limited audience, that of his own authors. What are they claiming now, 13,000 or so? On the other hand, our take on PA and its business practices has seen the pages of the Washington Post, the LA Times, the Associated Press, and more. Kind of a bigger pond. In true terms, what Meiners is doing is like kicking an elephant right in its big toe - might sting a little, but really, in the end, who cares?

Also, for those interested, I have an email from our friend Shemp/BJO which pretty much reveals this guy for the loser/mental giant that he is. Those of you interested can find the juicy parts over on the Shemp thread. (I just took this down, putting it up would expose a fine person to some needless harassment, and I just can't do that, I esteem her too much).

Uncle Jim, why don't we work together on an anti-PA book, just think, we could use a pic of ourselves enjoying a hamdog as the cover art. Meiner's book could be our napkins!

OH.. Brother Ed.. can I have in on this action too?? I just found all my hand written notes from the re-editing I had to do after PA went through my book. I had forgetten what a nightmare it was fixing all the PA "corrections".

IMO what Meiners is attempting to accomplish with this literary poo poo is a practice called "Reaffirming ones base". When I did political consulting we used this to jazz up our hard support and cater to the loylalists after a case of bad press or usually a poor debate performance. This is used only to reaffirm votes and appeal to the voters already casting a ballot for "Our" candidate.

This book came out at this particular point in time for a reason. That reason is us.. well AW and all the bad publicity that has hit PA along with the massive author defections. This $9.95 drivel and diatribe is nothing more then a sleazy effort to keep a firmer grasp on those freshly annointed newbies whom have yet to order thier 75 - 100 copies and assure that the "New" newbies, who have just signed their contracts, jump in the lava pit up to thier eyeballs and light up thier Visa and Mastercards till the digits glow. As we have seen in some of the PA posts, the ploy is effective and the newbies are planning on ordering his lies... I mean prose. The price should be an insult to those forced to market a 24.95 novel of equal length, but it won't be.

Ed.. I have the hamdog recipe and will be preparing a few for a neighborhood cookout this weekend. You are, of course, invited up North for a Yankee hamdog experience. The Icees will be replaced with Strawberry Diaqieries though, but there's a Store 24 right down the road if you really need one. Tums will be available and I'll be confined to the deck during the hamdog digestion process.
 

Susan Gable

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Passionate N.Y. Lady said:
But again I say, so what to your so what. Unless a court of law or Ebay says the man selling fake gold was a scam, those people who bought into his lies, lies, lies, were suckers. Legally, PA has not been declared culpable for their egregious acts of false advertising or, for that matter, anything else yet. Morally, now that may be a different issue, but case closed till there is a case against them.

If you are a former PA author, suckered in by PA, why do you want to continue to beat yourself and others up over a poor choice you've made? The harshest lessons in life are the most valuable, they teach us what to avoid when certain situations present themselves again. So let it go and move on, all the more wiser having had the experience.

So, basically you're advocating letting every other potential PA author learn the fire is hot the same way you did, by letting them get burned? Because then they'll learn "their lessons" much better?

Gosh, with that attitude, I hope you're not supervising small children in the kitchen.

I guess you wouldn't put up warning signs, either, like the ones that say: "Warning, Bridge Out Ahead!" Hey, let them learn the hard way.

You say what PA has done/is doing is morally wrong, but that until there is a legal case against them, the case is closed. So, if something is wrong, but not technically illegal, no one should point this out?

<longsufferingsigh>

To trot out a well-used (for good reason) saying: "All it takes for evil to prosper is for good people to do (say) nothing."

There will never be a legal case against PA unless their former authors make enough noise about it. Someone has to point out that what they're doing is wrong.

Susan G.
 

TracySutterer & GaryRogers

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Option 1 or 2....

As everyone knows by now, PA wouldn't let me out of my contract for my poetry book.

Well....I received an email from PA yesterday offering me either option 1 with editing or option 2 without editing for my poetry book. I chose option 1 just to see what it's really like. It sounded like the same procedure as the last two times. My 'editor' will check for spelling and the like in option 1. Option 2 sounds like no spell check at all.....

Everyone knows that they don't edit. It should be interesting to see what they do with it. I'll let you know if the process is any different.

Tracy
 

aka eraser

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Jim, isn't it likely that Willem went to an offset printer to run off a few hundred copies of his opus? That would net him a lot more bang for his authors' 10 bucks.

Passionate NY Lady: You seem to equate disagreement with a hostile atmosphere. I'm sorry you feel that way. This is a forum where all opinions are welcome but there is certainly no guarantee that all will be hailed and none challenged.
 

Sheryl Nantus

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Susan Gable said:
So, basically you're advocating letting every other potential PA author learn the fire is hot the same way you did, by letting them get burned? Because then they'll learn "their lessons" much better?

Gosh, with that attitude, I hope you're not supervising small children in the kitchen.

I guess you wouldn't put up warning signs, either, like the ones that say: "Warning, Bridge Out Ahead!" Hey, let them learn the hard way.

You say what PA has done/is doing is morally wrong, but that until there is a legal case against them, the case is closed. So, if something is wrong, but not technically illegal, no one should point this out?

<longsufferingsigh>

To trot out a well-used (for good reason) saying: "All it takes for evil to prosper is for good people to do (say) nothing."

There will never be a legal case against PA unless their former authors make enough noise about it. Someone has to point out that what they're doing is wrong.

Susan G.

amen.

it doesn't take a smart person to see that this is EXACTLY what PublishAmerica is counting on - that each author who gets burnt will just shrug it off and move along, letting another take his/her place.

and the righteous "well, I must have somehow deserved it, so let others find out the same way I did" doesn't fly in other areas of life - so why should it here?

ask the PA authors who have lost so much if they'd have appreciated someone telling them beforehand that this was a bad deal. Ask them how they'd feel knowing that another PA author who had gotten burnt was just sitting there on the sidelines and watching them, shaking their heads but not willing to intevene.

that sort of morality is what PA counts on - and creates accomplices, be they unwilling ones.

'nuff said.
 

James D. Macdonald

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aka eraser said:
Jim, isn't it likely that Willem went to an offset printer to run off a few hundred copies of his opus?

Who the hey knows what goes on in his weasely little mind? They don't have anyone on staff, certainly not him, who can estimate print runs.

It would be kinda funny thinking about him sitting there with his garage filled with books,though....
 

Ed Williams

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We all know...

...that many people are helped by the comments posted in this thread. I've not yet had a prospective author that didn't sign with PA on account of the information provided here tell me that it was too harsh or belittling in some way. It's the truth, and it's like Harry Truman said, "I didn't give them hell. I just told them the truth and they thought it was hell." What I don't understand is why people who continue to support PA to some degree find any surprise with what's posted here. Perhaps the problem is they didn't realize how terrible this scam is, or how negatively it has affected people. That doesn't get posted up over on the PA boards, pray tell.

This is not a closed society like PA, opinions can be expressed, and yes, opposition to those opinions can be voiced. Opinions can even be ignored, in fact, it's no different than the choices you make every day with your own television. If you turn it on and something is there that you don't want to watch, you simply change it to another channel. Here is no different. Maybe that's one of the most horrible things PA does to its writers, it bathes them in this surreal cocoon which suggests that everyone's books are wonderful and that no one can do any wrong. Well, no one until Shemp, Moe-randa, Larry, or Curlem designates them to be an evil doer or a basher, and then they are maligned in ways that make anything that's ever been posted here look like Sunday School.

One more thing - just my opinion, but I fail to see anything noble about being "middle ground" in the PA situation. Other than someone just wanting two free copies of their manuscript bound, PA is a horrible choice for anyone to make. And then some.
 

Liam Jackson

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James D. Macdonald said:
Who the hey knows what goes on in his weasely little mind? They don't have anyone on staff, certainly not him, who can estimate print runs.

It would be kinda funny thinking about him sitting there with his garage filled with books,though....

Must be time for another PA convention. Not sure what other outlet would mess with his "success story." (read "success story" as hellaciously effective scam)
 

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I was ready to come out swinging....

but others have done it much better. Dear PNYL, the walls of Jericho did not come down because of a few horns (since we are talking bible talk here with a gnat upending Goliath). If everybody had just walked away, it would have been a very different story. You may be a realist, but you are also a "victim" as am I, and thousands more very good people who did not ask for the treatment they got, just because they signed PA's "weasel-wording" contract. PA lied to me and cheated me and then sent me "tone" letters about it, after they had admitted the truth. They did the same to many other innocent people. Was this is in our contracts? They play games with royalties. Was this is our contracts? Are you advocating that we take that from the small schoolyard bully, or better still "the sheep in wolf's clothing"?

Now to add insult to injury, our porcine friend writes a book about how they are revolutionizing the publishing world. We have news for you, Willem, the only people who know or care about your book are your authors and most of us recognize it for what it is - yet another attempt to convince 11,000 more fools. Hopefully, the walls of Jericho will come down before that happens and not all of us are just going to walk away and disappear into the mist.

Sean, you have my sympathy, but Argile is 100% right.
You have to stand up to bullies. Also a spot of advice - do not post anything about what your future plans are regarding your book on this website. Most of the people here are honest and above board, but PA has eyes and ears everywhere - only say what you want them to hear.

Dolan, hurrah for you!. I have lots of documented evidence if you ever need any. Please keep posting, I like your fighting attitude.

O.K. I took a few punches anyway - just being a realist.

postshy/Roberta
 

James D. Macdonald

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PNYL --

Just in case you're reading here.

You've asked elsewhere about how to boost your current PA book -- what to do about sales. You're there for seven years ... how do you make the best of 'em?

This is the answer:

But first I digress.

The number one reason anyone buys a book is they've read and enjoyed another book by that same author.

The number two reason is that the book was recommended to them by someone they trust.

The number three reason is someone spotted it in a bookstore.
----------------------

From this you can derive that taking out ads in consumer publications isn't going to do you much good, even if it wasn't expensive as hand-made sin.

----------------------

Let's assume that your book is well written, well edited, and all things wonderful. (We know that many PA books must be.)

You have to get wide bookstore shelving to get the ball rolling. You won't be able to do that with PA. You already know the reasons:

a) high cover price
b) short discount
c) no returns

But still your book is with PA. That means that special order and on-line sales are where your sales will come from.

----------------------

Every kind of marketing that's known to man and is within the capabilities of individuals has been tried. 13,000 authors, and no successes. That should tell you something.

=================

Starting your own bookstore is

a) expensive, and
b) has failed every time it's been tried.

==================

Starting your own distribution system will be expensive, will become someone's full-time job, and will leave you holding the non-returnable bag. The high prices are still killers. You can't expect to sell five-dollar bills for a dollar each and stay in business long.

You'll also need to ask why bookstores who already have contracts with established distributors will suddenly want to do business with yours.

=================

While bookstores stock by publisher, and reviewers review by publisher, readers don't read by publisher. (Exception: Harlequin.)

Can you tell me without looking who published James Patterson's latest? How about Stephen King's? Tom Clancy's? John Grisham's? Nora Roberts'?

Readers read by author. A best seller for a given publisher does nothing for that publisher's other authors (other than allow them to keep the doors open and pay advances to lesser-known writers).

If, somehow, miraculously, a PA author became a best seller, it would do nothing for you.

Did you run out and buy an iUniverse book because Amy Fisher published with iUniverse? Neither did I.
-----------------------

You are a writer. You aren't a lecturer, not a salesperson, not a marketer, not a PR specialist. What you do is write.
==================


This brings us to the suggestion:

Write and sell another book to another publisher. A publisher that can get books onto bookstore shelves.

Some percentage of the bookstore browsers will buy your new book.
Some percentage of them will tell their friends.
Some percentage of their friends will seek out your new book.

And some percentage of those who read and loved your more recent book will seek out other books by you, and will buy them at the special order desk or on line.

You will improve your PA book's sales by making it an "other book by" you.

(Having more books out through legitimate publishers will also make it more likely that your PA book will find a house that will reprint it after it reverts seven years from now.)

==================

So: bottom line. To maximize your PA book's sales sell a book to a different publisher and make sure your PA book is listed in the "Other books by" section in the frontmatter.

That's it. That's the secret.
 
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Boob

Passionate NYL wrote: Sorry to be so mouthy here, got your fingers on that ignore button yet?
PNYL, I know how you feel. I get ignored here too.

Ponder of the day: If a tree falls in the middle of a forest, and all the other trees have ignore buttons, can they still hear it?

Boob. :ROFL:
 

Jeff

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The number one reason anyone buys a book is they've read and enjoyed another book by that same author.

The number two reason is that the book was recommended to them by someone they trust.

Ancedotal evidence here: I recently discovered the novels in the Song of Fire and Ice series by George RR Martin. After reading all three I went back to my local bookstore and bought the first in another series by the same author. I also have ordered a comic whose story is based on the first series I've mentioned.

But there is more.

Since a new Song of Fire and Ice novel is not due until July, I have also broadened my search for more of the same kind of thing. This has led me to a few other authors whom I had never read before. Reading the first author has stoked my hunger for more and other authors have benefitted from the opening of my wallet. I have bought no less than 10 novels in the last two weeks (he's addicted, someone stop him!)

But I only bought them if I have had a strong positive reccomendation or have been able to peruse them on the shelf of my local bookstores.
 
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