Archetypes Discussion (split from Haunted character)

I think instead of long books, I will point instead to two magazines who are available on-line for free who consistently do great, unconventional things over and over again.

Strange Horizons (www.strangehorizons.com)
Clarkesworld Magazine (http://clarkesworldmagazine.com/)

Also, these are two great places to find some of the best writers working in our field. John Scalzi, Jeff VanderMeer, Cat Rambo, Hal Duncan, etc., etc... (our own Sharon Mock...)

If you want to know what's happening on the tip of the spear in literature, read the magazines. These two magazines are free, and pull in some of the best over and over again.

Shweta said:

Yes, but the problem is, that's not enough to keep an author in the business. If you don't sell enough according to the number tallies, you're out of the game. One book does not a career make. Small presses might save us.
Might.
Probably not.

I can't find the link I read before, but this one will do. Warning: depressing as hell.

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I am sorry, but am I the only one who considers this kind of crying over making 240k for three books (and a prospect of making another 50k) and still earning royalties as a bit over the top. Not to mention inability to capitalize on the previous success.
She mentions she knows she is lucky to be even published, yet she doesn't sound like it.

Shweta said:

Yes, but the problem is, that's not enough to keep an author in the business. If you don't sell enough according to the number tallies, you're out of the game. One book does not a career make. Small presses might save us.
Might.
Probably not.

I can't find the link I read before, but this one will do. Warning: depressing as hell.



Of course. But the number of people on the planet now -- the number of literate people, even -- would make those authors drop dead of shock.
It's not about absolute numbers. It's about how many copies need to exist for us to find The Perfect Inspiring Book on the shelves of our bookstores, and for That Inspiring Author to have a chance to sell another book.

And that side of the issue is looking really quite grim.

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Your link didn't work for me.

How odd. I don't have an account, and was able to find it.



Obviously none of us are even looking at advances like this person was -- midlist pays differently in different genres -- but the story's still the same. If you aren't earning out (and that could be for a variety of reasons, including a publicist disappearing), it's difficult to get published the next time.

And I know the link I read was a spec fic person's blog, and it's much more worrying. Grr.

Shweta said:

Yes, but the problem is, that's not enough to keep an author in the business. If you don't sell enough according to the number tallies, you're out of the game. One book does not a career make. Small presses might save us.
Might.
Probably not.

I can't find the link I read before, but this one will do. Warning: depressing as hell.

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Okay, I got the link to work, and found out I had actually read this more than a year ago.

One thing that struck me is that this full time author wrote 4 original books in 12 years, plus a ghostwriting affair. Assuming 120,000 words per book, that's 40,000 words a year, or roughly 130 words a day. That's not a very impressive work ethic.

Some writers hit the jackpot, they write the miracle first book that is exactly what everybody wants to read that month or year. The odds are worse than 1 in a million, and many of them are one hit wonders. The way most writers become successful is they write. A lot. If you look at the advice the author of the diatribe got from her agents, they frequently said "Write another book." They meant, immediately. It's easier to sell a book if people remember your name because they just read something of yours that they liked, or if you have books currently in print. Being in print proves you are successful (even if it's an illusion at times).

By keeping fresh books coming out, they reach more people. If they are a good writer, tell good stories, people will seek out their other books. A good writer who keeps writing will build a following. When you have a following your books, all your books, stay in print. This is how most successful writers get out of the midlist into the category of well-known.

The second thing to consider is what kind of books you write. There are two types of books, really, those that are entertaining and the other kind. Entertaining books must compete against television (which is free), movies, music, going out with friends, playing video games, and surfing the internet (porn)(which is mostly free). To be successful you need to be pretty entertaining.

If you write the other kind, and they aren't the most informative books on subjects that everybody wants to know about, they don't sell very well (read at all). If you want to write serious books, then you damn well better be a good entertainer.

chroniclemaster1 said:

I think this is why you see a lot of writers putting their "careers" into fan fiction writing. You also have the online self-publishers, including the magazines that badducky mentioned.

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Uhhh what? The magazines that badducky mentioned are not in any way shape or form self-publishers.

They are places you submit work to, and normally get a rejection from.


...About the Salon article, I don't have a lot of sympathy for the author either. It is however a similar story to what I've heard from other people who do write a lot and don't expect too much, and it's the best link I found.
Grmbl.
I'm gonna try to find that blog already

ETA: Heeeere we go. Much better article. Finally remembered the right keywords to find it.

This has been covered in the 'Learn Writing with Uncle Jim' thread. Look for a 'death spiral' reference.
There are ways to fight it, though. Like trying to make the stores order your other books with the current one. This has two advantages -- the buyers see more of your work on the shelf and thus have more chance to buy it; and the net the store buys each time is larger than the previous time, not smaller (because it is for more books)

If you can make them do that, of course.

Dear Chroniclemaster1,

Strange Horizons and Clarkesworld are two of the better-respected magazines to crop up in the last few years, and I'm glad you've decided to come around these parts so you could learn about what's going on in your chosen field of writing.

I do hope you spend some time reading around the forums lest you accidentally refer to 'Asimov's' as a fan fiction magazine. (Clarkesworld actually pays better than Asimov's most of the time, btw.)

I also strongly urge you to peruse the Learn Writing with Uncle Jim thread.

Welcome to the Cooler, and best of luck with your writing.

I'm pretty sure that the Mentor archetype is very important to a story. Most fantasy stories follow about the same outline anyway. I've always thought that the Mentor is a must to introduce the reader to a world that is unfamilar and maybe even unfamilar to the main character. However, I do think that the Mentor's image has grown stagnant. It's always some bearded, old guy (Gandalf and Merlin carbon copies) and the Mentor is always powerful, but is either indifferent or "doesn't want to get involved". I believe that the image of the Mentor should be refreshed.

I'm pretty sure that Malaz Book of the Fallen doesn't have any Mentors. Everyone in that universe seems pretty familar with their surroundings and I haven't spotted a single farm boy in the series.

Darkness Rising said:

Most fantasy stories follow about the same outline anyway.

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I don't think this is true. And honestly, I mostly hear it from people who read 20 or fewer fantasy authors.

Certainly if you think all or most fantasy stories have a wise old mentor figure, I can name several dozen that don't off the bat.

Shweta said:

I mostly hear it from people who read 20 or fewer fantasy authors.

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Shweta is so correct, I felt the need to quote this just to make sure it's emphasized.

Shweta said:

If you can make them do that, of course.

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I agree. I don't want to derail this thread too much, so I'll only make a quick comment.
I have a big problem with writers crying about the problems of publishing business. After all, this is a business. And the writer has two choices -- either accept the realities of the business and try and live by those realities, or to cry about it, feel miserable and in the end fulfil the self-fulfilling prophecies.
Despite the 'death spiral' and the rest of hardships of the midlist authors, there are those who manage to do relatively well.

Crying or not, I think it's worth being aware of, and I think it's a bad aspect of the business.

Back to archetypes, what about the ones we get from fairy tales? Do they work in non-fairy-tale fantasy? The youngest child succeeding where the first two don't; the magical being who demands something and gives you aid if you do what they ask; the self-fulfilling prophecy...

Shweta said:

How odd. I don't have an account, and was able to find it.



Obviously none of us are even looking at advances like this person was -- midlist pays differently in different genres -- but the story's still the same. If you aren't earning out (and that could be for a variety of reasons, including a publicist disappearing), it's difficult to get published the next time.

And I know the link I read was a spec fic person's blog, and it's much more worrying. Grr.

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I just got it to work...took me forever to get the Salon link on the ad page. My apologies...

Shweta said:

Crying or not, I think it's worth being aware of, and I think it's a bad aspect of the business.

Back to archetypes, what about the ones we get from fairy tales? Do they work in non-fairy-tale fantasy? The youngest child succeeding where the first two don't; the magical being who demands something and gives you aid if you do what they ask; the self-fulfilling prophecy...

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Don't forget the ever popular evil stepmother. I will definitely have to reread some of my science fiction in a more studious manner to figure out archetypal characters and such.

"Moving Mars" by Greg Bear has a mentor in it. It's the mother-in-law of the main character and only helps her in one aspect of the novel. I think it was very well done.

Shweta said:

Back to archetypes, what about the ones we get from fairy tales? Do they work in non-fairy-tale fantasy? The youngest child succeeding where the first two don't; the magical being who demands something and gives you aid if you do what they ask; the self-fulfilling prophecy...

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I'd say the third child is more an archetypal plot device than character. I can't say that I've seen it used in anything other than fairytale/myth/fable. I think it's a very moral archetype, normally the first two fail because of flaws in their presonality/attitude, with the third youngest child exempliyfying all that is good and often succeding with or because of the help of that magical being (normally a talking animal) that the third child helps (selflessly) unlike his siblings who ignored or were even cruel to the animal.

I think this type of story works works well (in fable) structurally because of the whole power/rule of three thing, which lends a strong rythmic sense or 'rightness' to the stories. I think this might be because most of these stories have their roots in oral traditions rather than the written. The three repetitions make it easier for the storyteller to memorise, and make it more memorable for the audience (I would think).

A couple of other archetypal characters are The Trickster and my favourite The Fool (who usually isn't actually a fool).

A recent example of the latter being The Fool in Robin Hobb's Farseer and Tawnyman trilogies. Tyrion from George RR Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire I think is a good example of the Trickster. Possibly trickster and fool combined?

PenDragon said:

I'd say the third child is more an archetypal plot device than character. I can't say that I've seen it used in anything other than fairytale/myth/fable.

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Well, it's been played with in stories like Howl's Moving Castle. But I'd agree with you. I was thinking sort of generally and fuzzily.

A couple of other archetypal characters are The Trickster and my favourite The Fool (who usually isn't actually a fool).

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You might like The Coyote Road, then

So we have:
Mentor
Trickster

There's also the Animal Companion, the Maiden/Mother/Crone trio, the Knight and the King, of couse...

Carl Jung in his archetypal criticism says the mentor is a representation of the human perception of old age. This "character" appears in literature from all over the world. I'm pretty sure it can be seen in the old and new bible, Greek drama, Greek philosophy, Latin literature, Classical Italian literature (Virgil in the Divine Comedy), Shakespeare (Friar Lawrence, Prospero to some extent), Moliere used some variations of it, etc. etc.

Archetypes are in all forms of literature. The hero and the hero's assistant, Gilgamesh and Enkidu, Arthur and Kay, Sebastian and Antonio from Twelfth Night (Shakespeare uses this archetype quite frequently), Don Quixote and Sancho Panza, Achilles and Patroclus, etc.

Jung describes archetypes as representations of the human condition, and the human life cycle. The journey construct of a story requires archetypes in order to relate to the reader, who, like the character, is on a journey from birth to death. The wise old man is a representation of the final stage, where life experience is passed on to the new adventurer as he embarks on his journey. That is why, in fantasy literature, the "wise old man" usually has some journey experience of his own, such as Gandalf's immense life's story, Belgarath's relationship with his daughters and wife, and his backstory with the creation of the Orb, Dumbledore already had an established career as a great wizard before Harry Potter, or even Voldemort were born.

That being said, don't just create a character called Grandorf who makes the same boring, lame jokes as Gandalf. You can still innovate, since time always alters the role of these characters in society slightly.

MargueriteMing said:

Okay, I got the link to work, and found out I had actually read this more than a year ago.

One thing that struck me is that this full time author wrote 4 original books in 12 years, plus a ghostwriting affair. Assuming 120,000 words per book, that's 40,000 words a year, or roughly 130 words a day. That's not a very impressive work ethic.

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There's more to writing a book than the words that end up on the pages. Especially a fantasy/SF book.

Just saying.