The Old Neverending PublishAmerica Thread (Publish America)

writerjenn · May 1, 2005

Wow. That's about all I can say right now.

Jenn

reph · May 1, 2005

MartyKay said:
Is the "PA as underdog" motive exceptional or does this occur more often?

I have no information about its frequency. Amateur psychologizing follows.

PA presents itself as the rescuer of put-upon little people in the big, scary, unfair world of publishing. Its advertising carries a David and Goliath motif that appeals to those who feel helpless and unrecognized. For instance, PA says it specializes in books by writers who have endured excessive suffering and triumphed against long odds. It promotes the idea that relying on POD technology (note: small press runs) puts PA in a minority now, but someday that technology will become very big. People with whom this theme strikes a chord would easily identify with PA as a struggling underdog itself.

It wouldn't surprise me if grown-up abused children who still feel like victims were overrepresented among PA authors.

PixelFish · May 1, 2005

I think that in the United States in particular, the "underdog" motif, or the "Horatio Alger" or "Maverick" appeal will (pardon me, I can't help myself) resonate with a certain audience. My public schooling leads me to believe that Americans prize ingenuity and alternative approaches... Thus such an appeal to emotion is probably quite common in successful MLMs and other scams. You want to be risking something, feel like you are running with the big boys, etc. etc. You may be assuming and trusting that the people who say they are investing in YOU are also willing to risk. You just didn't realise that running with the wolves would be quite so literal.

MacAllister · May 1, 2005

*sigh*
One of the things I shall never forgive them for is the annihilation of "resonate"--which was once a perfectly good word.

I keep thinking about the dollar advance. It's pretty clever and completely despicable: the dollar symbolizes publishing, to people who've never been published--so assumes an importance completely out of proportion to reality.

I see the PA authors refer to it again and again. Without that measily buck to metaphorically wave around, I wonder what they'd fall back on for the "traditional publisher" claims?

JennaGlatzer · May 2, 2005

MacAllister said:
*sigh*
One of the things I shall never forgive them for is the annihilation of "resonate"--which was once a perfectly good word.

Know what's funny? Couple of months ago, I reread a book review I wrote (on Amazon, maybe), and I was actually embarrassed because I used the word resonate. I felt like a hack. I was humiliated. How could I have writte such a stipid thing? Then I remembered, wait, there's nothing wrong with the word! It's not poor resonate's fault that it got abused.

We could start a shelter for mistreated resonates.

needles · May 2, 2005

MacAllister said:
I keep thinking about the dollar advance. It's pretty clever and completely despicable: the dollar symbolizes publishing, to people who've never been published--so assumes an importance completely out of proportion to reality.

But wouldn't the $1 advance suggest that PA doesn't expect most of their authors' books to earn much in royalties against that advance? Why isn't this gesture considered somewhat of an insult?

Especially since when there's accounting for sales to friends and family members, PA should fully expect to recover that $1 investment.

I know that most PA authors consider that dollar as merely token. But bizness transactions conducted with token dollar amounts seem kind of intrinsically shady (like the time I paid $4000 for a good first car from my friend's dad, at less-than-blue-book-value, who then transferred the title as a $500 car). I'm sure there are better examples.

cwgranny · May 2, 2005

JennaGlatzer said:
Point is, I'm not out to offend or humiliate anyone, and I don't think anyone else here is, either. But there have been a few times when some of us have crossed the line unintentionally, saying something that could offend people we didn't mean to offend. In those cases, rather than starting a debate about it here or calling anyone out on it, please send a PM to Victoria.

Personally, I'm not one of the folks who has a huge problem with trotting out a "looser" or a "sells" and giggling about it or flogging the poor jammie-wearing lady to death for it (okay, obviously I do have a teensy problem with that one.) But I think I do have a noticable problem with saying, "It's okay to make public remarks about things said on the PA message board by the PA authors if you think the PA author's remark was out of line -- but it's not okay to make public remarks HERE about things said HERE on this message board by our fellows and even gently questioning whether the remark was fair -- that really needs to be done privately."

Doesn't that seem...oh, I dunno...kind of unfair? (Unfair was chosen to be nice and really, I'm not that nice. What I really thought was hypocritical.)
Maybe it's just me... cause for me, it just doesn't resonate.

Our whole argument for it being okay to post about things said there is that it's a public board therefore it's open to public remark (which is actually something I rather agree with -- after all, if we scared the folks into using a spell checker before posting we haven't exactly harmed their career, ya know?) But I do think it kind of needs to fly both ways or else it really makes us look bad.

gran
(I tell ya, if I could spell, I'd be dangerous)

Memphis Ed · May 2, 2005

From Amo

Amo at PA board said:
When you confront your adversaries with honest dialog you defuse their argument.

Amo-

Here's an invitation.....call 888-433-3215 any Sunday between noon and 2:00 CST. We'll let listeners in Memphis and Atlanta and over the Internet listen to some honest dialog. Feel free to bring some others along if you like...we have plenty of phone lines.

spacejock2 · May 2, 2005

cwgranny said:
Doesn't that seem...oh, I dunno...kind of unfair? (Unfair was chosen to be nice and really, I'm not that nice. What I really thought was hypocritical.)
Maybe it's just me... cause for me, it just doesn't resonate.

This is what I understood: if you see a post on AW you don't agree with, PM Victoria about it instead of posting 'you can't say that here or the mods will get upset with you'.

In other words, let the mods mod.

DaveKuzminski · May 2, 2005

NancyMehl said:
On the PA Board

From Argile Stox:

Regarding the e-mail evidence against you - The e-mails will be distributed ON - DEMAND to anyone who requests them.
_______________________________

Dave,

I think a request needs to be made.

Nancy

Yes, I agree. I don't have his email address. If anyone else does, feel free to either ask him on my behalf to send me the evidence or provide me with the email address and I'll ask him.

Aconite · May 2, 2005

underthecity said:
He said that they WILL carry a POD book as long as it has a no-return policy. If not, the answer is NO. He said he gets calls "all the time" from authors wanting them to carry their books (vanity, self-pub, POD), and as long as the books can be returned, they will take a couple of copies, no problem.

UTC, the rest of your post makes it clear what you meant, but you might want to fix the "no-return policy" typo for clarity.

M. Story · May 2, 2005

Huhcorp.com--too funny!

You have got to check this out. I swear, it's so similar to PA's way of doing things. The difference is that this is for fun (I think), and PA's is supposed to be serious!

Here's a sample from their site: www.huhcorp.com/

Our marketing and consultant clients are numerous and prestigious. Far too numerous and prestigious to name, in fact. You'll just have to take our word on this. There's a lot of them. And they're all really big, successful companies. All of our clients are very powerful and have lots and lots of money. That's why we charge so much for our design and marketing services. Because we can.

Click to expand...

Our clients are always satisfied with our service. If you knew who any of them were, you could confirm this for yourself, but, since you don't, you'll just have to take our word on this one too. Client satisfaction is always our first priority. Well...actually...maybe something like third or fourth. But we really do take care of our clients. More or less, anyway.

©2004 huhcorp.com | All Rights Reserved.

M. Story · May 2, 2005

Here's another sample from their site: www.huhcorp.com/
Now doesn't this sound like similar to PA's way of doing things?

Our office is really modern and we've got nice computers and stuff. If you ever saw it, you'd say "Wow, cool office. These guys are legit."

and another...

When we deliver your new designs and business strategies to you, they'll be in really snazzy binders that look nice sitting on big, round meeting tables, so you'll think you got your money's worth. When your project has been completed, we'll give you several follow-up phone calls to give the appearance that we even remember who you are or what we sold you.

Nahhh, maybe not. PA would never give you a follow-up phone call.

realitychuck · May 2, 2005

needles said:
But wouldn't the $1 advance suggest that PA doesn't expect most of their authors' books to earn much in royalties against that advance? Why isn't this gesture considered somewhat of an insult?

It boils down to not knowing how publishing works. In real publishing, the advance is an estimate of how well the book will sell.

Going under that, PA certainly doesn't have any faith in their authors.

But PA authors have bought into the idea that the gesture is important, that PA is giving them the dollar because they believe in the book. And being a PUBLISHED AUTHOR is a big attraction for anyone who writes, so they want to believe it means something.

DreamWeaver · May 2, 2005

Originally Posted by Amo at PA board When you confront your adversaries with honest dialog you defuse their argument.

Much as I would like this basic premise to be correct, it isn't. In the end, words are words and they have incredible power, true or not. If there is no proof to back up one's argument, dialogue is just an exercise in who has the strongest rhetoric.

When you confront your adversaries with proof, you may have a chance of defusing their arguments, if your adversaries are willing to be open-minded. Dialogue, honest or not, will generally only change the minds of those who have seen some proof, have some suspicion that all is not as they have believed.

Therefore, AW folks have a chance of defusing PA's arguments, because AW folks have gathered lots and lots of evidence to prove their points.

PA folks have little chance of defusing AW's arguments, because they have little or no evidence to back their claims.

Dialogue is just a way to present the evidence in an orderly manner. Dialogue of itself does little. There has to be proof.

Kris

zizban · May 2, 2005

M. Story said:
You have got to check this out. I swear, it's so similar to PA's way of doing things. The difference is that this is for fun (I think), and PA's is supposed to be serious!

Here's a sample from their site: www.huhcorp.com/

Ha ha, awesome!

underthecity · May 2, 2005

Aconite said:
UTC, the rest of your post makes it clear what you meant, but you might want to fix the "no-return policy" typo for clarity.

Aconite, thanks for the heads-up. I went back and fixed the typo.

Forgot to mention that the asst manager at this B&N hadn't heard of Atlanta Nights, and the store did not have it in stock. Of course I told him a little about it. He thought it was a riot.

underthecity

cwgranny · May 2, 2005

Right, Spacejock...correct folks who post here privately by mentioning it to the moderators and trusting that they will do something if they agree, correct folks from over there publically on this board whether they like it or not since you know full well that neither the PA poster nor the PA space cops would agree.

I didn't really have trouble understanding it...just swallowing it. I still think if we are comfortable with correcting SOME of the folks over there by our own personal judgement whether they like it or not (since NOT is most likely)...that we sure as shooting ought to be open to the same scrutiny from our fellow posters who we KNOW are likely to be hesitant to speak up.

But, heck, I'm a old Southern woman -- I've lived with double standards all my life.
I can live with it here, too, I reckon.

gran

ResearchGuy · May 2, 2005

ResearchGuy said:
This is another similarity to behavior I have seen on stock message boards ...

Let me add that I have also seen shills and enforcers (company-sponsored and/or freelance cranks) on those boards, sometimes carrying on their roles for years. Sound familiar?

--Ken (*with* the hyphens)

DreamWeaver · May 2, 2005

cwgranny said:
...correct folks who post here privately by mentioning it to the moderators and trusting that they will do something if they agree, correct folks from over there publically on this board whether they like it or not...
I didn't really have trouble understanding it...we sure as shooting ought to be open to the same scrutiny from our fellow posters who we KNOW are likely to be hesitant to speak up.

I didn't read the original request as anything like that. I didn't read it as a request not to publicly correct anyone on this board for any reason. I read it as a request not to publicly correct someone here for using bad manners in correcting someone else.

IOW, if you think somone has used bad manners in making a correction, take the bad manners up with the moderator. I don't think that's an outrageous or hypocritical request. It's simply an attempt to avoid a daisy-chain of manners-related posts that lead us away from the main topic.

There has to be some way to keep discussion on topic. Making manners policing a moderator function is one way of doing that.

Kris
--hoping that wasn't a correcting-manners post...if so, I'll take my time in the penalty box, coach.

Christine N. · May 2, 2005

Ugh, now they're reaching...

Message:
This may sound dumb but, isn't B&N owned and operated by one company? Same with the others? I have read about authors being told that "It is against company policy" and it got my mind working. If it truly is against "Company Policy" why is it that there are B&N's out there willing to carry and sell our books? Could it be that certain managers only want contact with the famous? Could it be that they feel they are above reproach from new authors? Could it be they feel we are beneath them? Could it be that they are on a power trip? Hmmmm......something to think about. Next time an author is told that it is against "Company Policy" maybe it should be brought to the persons attention that apparently that term has a different meaning to different people.

Sigh. I don't remember any B&N placements of PA books, only Borders. But I don't remember so well nowadays. LOL.

James D. Macdonald · May 2, 2005

Faust: Did not my conjuring speeches raise thee? Speak.

Mephistopheles: That was the cause, but yet per accidens....
-- Dr. Faustus (Marlowe)

Last night I heard of the brangle on the PA boards, more fully described in the Death of Shemp topic below. What can I say? I was weak. I went to look. I was, and am, astounded. But, while looking at that, I saw the next thread over, which has the title To The PA Bashers That Lurk Here.

I believe that's addressed to me, so I feel that it's okay to comment on that thread. If someone who has access to the PA boards wants to tell the folks there that their prayers, and their posts, have been answered, well ... go ahead.

My Nice-O-Matic is still in the shop.

I was laying in bed tonight thinking about those that bash PA. You know what I'm not going t let you people rain on my parade.

I sure hope you meant "lying," because when I'm in bed laying usually my mind is on other things than messageboards and publishing. That aside, "bash" isn't the right word either. The term you're looking for is "tell the truth about." And you know something else? No one is trying to rain on your parade. Reality will do that all by itself without any help from anyone. Your book isn't out yet. It isn't even scheduled. Have you ever noticed how many of the "boosters" are folks whose books only recently came out or aren't yet published, while the "bashers" are people who started where you're standing now, but have walked a bit farther down the road?

You say that PA will publish anything, well I know for a fact that that's not true.

I know for a fact it is. Eli Smith and the Purple Pony. Atlanta Nights. Dee's sting manuscript. And, hate to bring this back up, but Night Travels of the Elven Vampire. You want me to tell you what happened to your manuscript the first time you submitted it? It came in after they'd already reached their quota for that day. It's that simple.

I sent the same ms to another company and guess what for a lot of money they were willing to take the ms.

If you're sending your work to people who ask you for money to publish you're sending it to the wrong people.

PA didn't ask and hasn't asked for any money as a matter of fact they gave me a doolar advance.

Fair enough. Now take the pledge: I swear or affirm that I will never pay any money to PublishAmerica for any reason.

That dollar advance: Out in the world of publishing the advance is generally set to be about what the publisher expects your royalties to be.

...to me that was showing that they have faith in my work.

Not a whole lot of faith. Actually, they have no faith in your work whatever. What they have faith in is that you'll buy multiple copies of your own book.

Also I have read where the PA bashers talk about how sentences aren't always right or words aren't speeled right, guess what I'm reading a book by a well known author and not all of his things are done right and he paid someone to look his work over.

If he was with a real publisher, no, he didn't pay anyone to look his work over. The publisher paid the editor. And the publisher paid the author, too, an amount that didn't limit him to the Dollar Menu at Wendy's.

No one is perfect and everyone makes mistakes but I don't feel that I made a mistake using PA.

Come back a year after your book comes out and repeat that.

-------------

Well said. I agree completely.

Your book came out in February. Come back in September and tell us again.

------------

I don't know if quality control is the real issue with PA or not. Print anything? Well if they do that they will bring about their own demise.

Quality control is a problem with PA in three ways: First, they accept anything that folks send. Second, their covers are cheesy and their interior design is cheap. Third, their editing is poor-to-nonexistent. Yes, this will bring about their demise.

Being the only financial investor in the project,why would they accept anything they receive?

They have confidence that you, the author, will "invest" in around 35 copies of your own book, and you'll be able to lean on your friends and family to buy another 35-40 copies.

They (PA) claim that they reject 80 to 90 percent of all the manuscripts they receive, so they must be prudent.

You're aware that the second half of your sentence doesn't follow from the first half?

If someone doesn't like what you are doing, there is no limit to how stupid they will get in their accusations.

Entirely agree!

I see your book came out last July. Tell me -- how are sales? How many did you buy yourself? Isn't it true that every copy that sold so far has gone to someone you know by name, or you were looking in the eye at the moment money changed hands? How's it feel to be an unpaid salesman?

----------------

I went through the route of self publishing, before I came to PA and there is a difference in that and what PA does.
I just cannot get why it cannot be seen, by those who put down this company?

I'm sorry you went the self-publish/vanity-publish route. The question should be, why are you comparing PA with self-publishing? Isn't PA supposed to be "traditional" publishing?

I do not have to buy any of my books, unless I want to.

But you will want to, eh? That's what PA is betting on.

Family members don't have to buy my books either, if they don't want to.

They don't have to, but they will, right?

So, that sort of shoot's, that bashing comment in the rump.(bang, bang)

No, not at all. It's observable fact that authors do buy their own books, and their family and friends do buy their books, in predictable numbers. PA knows that, and is banking on it.

I see your book is coming out in July of this year. PA will use their 90 Day Excuse for why you don't have any royalties in September. Tell you what -- come back in February and tell us how you feel about PA then.

However, there are no guarantees that your book will sell through any other publisher, or by going self-published.

Self-publishing is a hard road. I don't recommend it to anyone. (Standard exceptions: Niche fiction, specialized non-fiction, poetry, and you're one heck of a salesperson.) Tell you what, when you hear authors with real publishers complaining about how their books had "no sales," what they mean is that they had sales that would make any PA author think he'd died and gone to heaven.

So, is it that you (the basher's) are loosing out on an income, because I'm not using your printing services that cost me at the least 200 bucks to have my book printed and then I pay my copyright, ISBN #, I'll have to then market this book myself, if I go through you. (bashers)

I don't know where this idea that the truth-tellers represent vanity presses comes from. Listen, I'm telling you right now: If someone asks you to pay to publish your book, don't do it. Get out of there.

I'm not losing any income to you (except the time I'm wasting posting here that I could spend writing). You aren't competing with me.

When you figure up your costs with the two, its pretty much a no brainier.
Dang! I didn't even hurt my brain, figuring that one out!!!!!

Comparing PA with self-publishing again? Maybe you should have hurt your brain a bit. Not only is PA just acting as a printer, they're an expensive one, with a horrible seven-year contract attached.

------------------

The comment about PA isn't any good check with our work. I did that on purpose also to make a point.

Perhaps so. But ... what's the point of the misspellings on your web page? Would you please fix them? It's ... embarrassing.

What they haven't figured out is all that they are doing is making us more determined to show them wrong.

Yeah. Let me know how that works out for you.

-------------------

There are also many people who enter a situation with unrealistic expectations.

Those expectations come from the false and misleading advertising on PA's web page, don't they?

PA provides a method for people to have their writings published in book form and available to order, with very little upfront investment ($30.00) from the aspiring author. This is a good thing.

It isn't the upfront investment you should worry about. It's the down back investment that's the killer.

Try not to be discouraged when literary professionals thumb their nose at you.

Not so much thumb their nose at you. Most don't even know you exist. The others -- some turn away, covering their eyes and muttering "Oh, the humanity!" and some try to throw you life lines. A few may laugh at you, but those are a distinct minority.

Wasn't it Larry who said that y'all were thumbing your noses at us?

Book sales, especially in fiction genres, have dwindled substantially in the last few decades.

This would be even more impressive it if were true.

Have fun with it. If you're not having fun with it, what's the point?

Couldn't agree more.

Your book just came out in March. Drop by and let's revisit these issues in September, okay?

-------------------

They wont print anything, hell I am angry that they wont print my genealogy!!

Does your genealogy have a lot of tables? They reject those because it takes a lot of time to format, and their business plan revolves around getting a lot of titles through the pipeline as fast as possible. Either that, or your book hit them after they'd already reached that day's quota. Just resubmit it.

-------------------

If someone out there feels like I am such a threat as to cut and paste my words then they are worried I will make something of myself.

No, I'm worried that you won't make something of yourself. I'm afraid that you wrote a good book, and no one will read it. That's my worry.

Your book is coming out in May. Check back in six or nine months and tell me how you feel about PA then.

-------------------

Bashers and smashers
And slammers all rot
Notice they are
Often anonymous
Are they not

That's my real name over there to the left.

Want my guess about the initials of at least one anonymous slammer/slimer? Do the letters "HB" mean anything to you?

Tell you what -- your books have been out three and four years. You know how many you sold, and through what route. Take copies of your books down to a local printer and ask 'em how much it would cost for you to print the same number as you bought from PA. Then figure out how much more money you would have earned by selling books you'd had printed yourself.

NancyMehl · May 2, 2005

Dave...

You have mail.

Nancy

victoriastrauss · May 2, 2005

Dawno said:
Victoria or Jenna are going to come here and chide us, I can feel it in my aurora. IMO, we should take this over to the Shemp thread.

Here I am, the chiding one (though I have to admit I am glued to that eye-popping thread as eagerly as anyone else). Thanks, everyone, for being your own moderators, and taking discussion to the Shemp thread.

For the record, I'd like to say that ANY PA author is welcome at AW, whether they're a PA refugee or a PA advocate, whether they've been a lurker on the PA message boards or an active "basher" basher. I can't say I've forgotten the people who participated in attacks on me and other advocates--that kind of thing leaves indelible memories--or that I wouldn't appreciate an apology; but I don't hold grudges. If you need help, it's here, no strings attached.

Ugh, now I've gone all Pollyanna-ish. I promise my next post will be cynical.

- Victoria

Sparhawk · May 2, 2005

Masterful Uncle Jim.

:Thumbs:

Two thumbs up !! That was brilliant and well said, the perfect rebuttal.

The Old Neverending PublishAmerica Thread (Publish America)

Fig of authority

Tired and worried.

wishes you happiness

Big Elvis fan

Preditors & Editors

Pollyanna with n attitude

Pollyanna with n attitude

Hack Writer

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Finestkind

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Shakespearean Fool

haz a shiny new book cover

Your Genial Uncle

She Who Resonates...

Writer Beware Goddess

Jenna's Cabana Boy