Writing in dialect/broque/accents etc

Puma · Oct 9, 2007

Hi Doogs - I got what you're trying to do. What I'm saying is, I don't think you did a good job of it.

When people learn to speak in a foreign language, for a long period of time, they translate from their native tongue to the foreign language while they are speaking. So there would be the sentence structure pattern consistent with the native tongue and pauses or "how you say?" breaks.

I don't think you'd ever find a non-native speaker saying "Your orders raped and murdered my mother...." The thought process would be first the subject, what happened to the subject, and then why. The sentence structure would be about the same.

Much more likely errors (than incorrect sentence structure) from non-native speakers are incorrect word choices because the vocabulary is limited. Maybe you already have some of those, if not, there's a idea for you to think about.

Bottom line, if I was reading your manuscript for consideration, when I hit those two lines I might give you a chance to re-write the section or I might flat reject your manuscript. I would not accept it. Sorry to be rough, but, the whole idea of these discussions is to help all of us improve to the point where we have a better chance to get our foot in the door.

This is my opinion, and if you get some contradictory opinions to mine, I'll be very interested to hear to them. Sorry to be a wet blanket. Puma

PastMidnight · Oct 9, 2007

Puma said:
The thought process would be first the subject, what happened to the subject, and then why. The sentence structure would be about the same.

Much more likely errors (than incorrect sentence structure) from non-native speakers are incorrect word choices because the vocabulary is limited. Maybe you already have some of those, if not, there's a idea for you to think about.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you are saying here with 'the sentence structure would be about the same', but I suppose it is worth pointing out regardless that errors in a second language depend greatly on the speaker's native language. When I taught ESL, I was often able to guess where a new student was from just by looking at their writing sample or listening to them talk for a few minutes. My Korean students would usually forget to use articles (a, the, that), my French-speaking student would put his adjectives after his nouns, German students wouldn't use present/past progressive correctly. There were occasional humourus vocabulary choices, but for the most part they stuck to simple words or else chose words that were so baffling that you have no idea where the error stemmed from.

I understand the difficulty that Doogs has, having a character with a native language that is no longer spoken 'translate' into another language, and then have the whole represented by English, a language that neither character is actually speaking. I hope you don't get discouraged, Doogs, and post some snippets of dialogue for the new challenge!

I know I have some similar dialogue from an earlier novel that I would be willing to post up for the challenge to be dissected.

Doogs · Oct 9, 2007

PastMidnight said:
I hope you don't get discouraged, Doogs, and post some snippets of dialogue for the new challenge!

If that was all it took for me to get discouraged, I don't think I'd have made it out of the second chapter!

I'll have a look at the scene and see if it makes sense to post.

PattiTheWicked · Oct 9, 2007

c.e.lawson said:
I think Patti was referring to Steven Pressfield.

Yep, that's the one. Oops.

And I just found Colleen McCullough's "Caesar" at HPB so I've started on that. Not sure if I'm liking her writing style yet, but the story is good so far.

wee · Oct 9, 2007

Hi Puma!

The biggest problem is being able to understand it. I will hide my face in burning shame that I have read through three of these books :Ssh:

but Diana Gabaldon's Highlander series does pretty well with the Scottish accent for the male lead. Whenever his dialogue comes up, you can hear the brogue loud & clear, but it is always understandable.

wee

c.e.lawson · Oct 9, 2007

I agree, wee - Gabaldon's series (I think you meant Outlander) shows the 17th century Scot's accent throughout all books in the series, and I loved it. Maybe we should show a snippet of her dialogue and get some comments. Is that allowed if we give credit?

c.e.

girlyswot · Oct 9, 2007

wee said:
Hi Puma!

The biggest problem is being able to understand it. I will hide my face in burning shame that I have read through three of these books but Diana Gabaldon's Highlander series does pretty well with the Scottish accent for the male lead. Whenever his dialogue comes up, you can hear the brogue loud & clear, but it is always understandable.

wee

No shame! Unless you meant because you haven't finished the others yet?

c.e.lawson · Oct 9, 2007

Yes, I missed that 'shame' comment on first read. Where's the shame in reading the Outlander series? I am currently intermittently enjoying these books immensely. I say intermittently because I don't read so much when I'm trying to write. This is not to say I haven't found flaws, but in general I think Gabaldon is a very good writer, and Outlander was a 'stay up until two a.m. because I can't put the book down' kind of experience for me. And let's not forget Jamie Fraser....

wee · Oct 9, 2007

c.e.lawson said:
Yes, I missed that 'shame' comment on first read. Where's the shame in reading the Outlander series? I am currently intermittently enjoying these books immensely. I say intermittently because I don't read so much when I'm trying to write. This is not to say I haven't found flaws, but in general I think Gabaldon is a very good writer, and Outlander was a 'stay up until two a.m. because I can't put the book down' kind of experience for me. And let's not forget Jamie Fraser....

Okay, but ten pages for a single sex scene? Things that grossed me out after years of marriage (a grown man nursing off his wife's boob, the wife who had another man's child but he took her back)? LOL I loved, loved the history & the adventure ... but the pure porno was a little much for me & the adult rape was absolutely awful. And the occasional very weird scene like the one above. Not to mention them sleeping around while they were apart and having all these other kids ... I know, I know, they didn't know ... and now it has been so long that I'm not sure if I remember enough to read #4 or if I can take it. :tongue

I guess if the writing wasn't so good I wouldn't be so wrecked by the story.

Do you know what is my only gripe about the actual writing? Sometimes Jamie sounds like a hormonal woman -- his dialogue goes all wonky! I've noticed it a time or two & had to go back to see if I was mistaken about who was speaking. Other than that I think she does really well.

c.e.lawson · Oct 9, 2007

Yes, I can see what you mean about certain aspects of the storyline. I didn't care for the Jack Randall stuff with Jamie - thought it was overdone and...well...strange. I had double takes at her behavior regarding her first husband after she met Jamie. I do see your point. But I have to say I actually admired the way she wrote the love scenes. I thought they were well done in terms of each one having some sort of figurative angle but also advancing character and story. I didn't feel they were gratuitous, if I remember correctly. And, at least in Outlander and Dragonfly in Amber, I don't remember them being coarse or vulgar or using certain terms that I find to be turn-offs. Gabaldon has a great podcast on her website where she discusses writing love scenes. I should find that link and post it.

PastMidnight · Oct 10, 2007

Going back to the topic of dialect, though, I have to say that I thought Gabaldon overdid it a bit. I mean, the actual instances of dialect in dialogue were fine, but I think that it was largely unnecessary. In the first book, we were in Scotland, so, naturally, most everyone aside from Claire and Jack Randall were speaking with a Scottish accent. It would be like having a book set entirely in, say, Russia, and having all of the characters speak with Russian accents. The characters are Russian, the reader can imagine how it is that they talk. We all know that Jamie is Scottish, without the accent! To be fair, though, I think she did tone this down in later books.

I can accept a subtle and well-done use of dialect if [1] it's not the main character (because this just gets to be too much for me) and [2] it's there for a reason, such as to distinguish the character from the others around him or her

PastMidnight · Oct 10, 2007

C.e., if you do find that podcast, maybe we should start a new thread about love scenes and their place in historicals? That would be an interesting discussion! We've touched on it here and there in threads.

wee · Oct 10, 2007

PastMidnight said:
Going back to the topic of dialect, though, I have to say that I thought Gabaldon overdid it a bit. I mean, the actual instances of dialect in dialogue were fine, but I think that it was largely unnecessary. In the first book, we were in Scotland, so, naturally, most everyone aside from Claire and Jack Randall were speaking with a Scottish accent. It would be like having a book set entirely in, say, Russia, and having all of the characters speak with Russian accents. The characters are Russian, the reader can imagine how it is that they talk. We all know that Jamie is Scottish, without the accent! To be fair, though, I think she did tone this down in later books.

I can accept a subtle and well-done use of dialect if [1] it's not the main character (because this just gets to be too much for me) and [2] it's there for a reason, such as to distinguish the character from the others around him or her

To play devil's advocate ... (LOL) ... most of her readers are going to be American, at least initially, and we read the way we sound, putting our own accent on it in our own minds. And if you are in the middle of one of those door-stop books, all hooked on the story & on picturing Jamie in your head, all it takes is a "Ach, Sassenach" to make you sigh and go ambush your husband...

I did think it worked well for her since it was the viewpoint of a semi-modern lady going into an unknown land with foreign accents. Claire would not have been used to those accents (just as most of G's readers aren't), so it was a constant reminder of setting.

wee · Oct 10, 2007

PastMidnight said:
C.e., if you do find that podcast, maybe we should start a new thread about love scenes and their place in historicals? That would be an interesting discussion! We've touched on it here and there in threads.

Absolutely -- I'm debating this with my current WIP, not wanting this to be a romance but knowing that most of my readers will be women ... and that a romantic subplot in part of it will make the story more interesting, more gripping.

Doogs · Oct 10, 2007

PastMidnight said:
C.e., if you do find that podcast

Search the podcasts on iTunes...it's pretty easy to find through there.

c.e.lawson · Oct 10, 2007

To play devil's advocate ... (LOL) ... most of her readers are going to be American, at least initially, and we read the way we sound, putting our own accent on it in our own minds. And if you are in the middle of one of those door-stop books, all hooked on the story & on picturing Jamie in your head, all it takes is a "Ach, Sassenach" to make you sigh and go ambush your husband...

I did think it worked well for her since it was the viewpoint of a semi-modern lady going into an unknown land with foreign accents. Claire would not have been used to those accents (just as most of G's readers aren't), so it was a constant reminder of setting.

Yes, wee - I agree with you. The speech of manly Scots makes me go all weak in the knees. I'm American and I loved reading Jamie's dialogue with the Scot's stuff obvious. It did have the...ah...effect you described above. I would not have enjoyed the book as much if Gabaldon started off with the accent/dialect in the beginning, then stopped it altogether. But PastMidnight is from Scotland. She's surrounded by that everyday. (Lucky girl) I suppose, if I try REALLY hard, I can imagine how it must not be the same for PastMidnight.

Oh, and I'm going to find that podcast and start a thread right now.

girlyswot · Oct 10, 2007

wee said:
And if you ahre in the middle of one of those door-stop books, all hooked on the story & on picturing Jamie in your head, all it takes is a "Ach, Sassenach" to make you sigh and go ambush your husband...

...if only one had a husband to ambush.

But I completely agree. I think the accent on the whole works well for Jamie. I never had any difficulty knowing what he was saying and I liked the way it distinguishes him from Claire. What actually irritates me more is in the later books, when she's had her 20 years in Boston, is her Americanisms. I want her to be English, and I always feel that Gabaldon sent her to America because she got bored of getting the Britishisms right.

Writing in dialect/broque/accents etc

Puma

Retired and loving it!

PastMidnight

Oponionated

Doogs

PattiTheWicked

Unleashing Hell.

wee

just a little

c.e.lawson

girlyswot

c.e.lawson

wee

just a little

c.e.lawson

PastMidnight

Oponionated

PastMidnight

Oponionated

wee

just a little

wee

just a little

Doogs

c.e.lawson

girlyswot