Does the slush pile still live? (old thread)

[Tallymark]

I think that first novels tend to do badly not because people read them and don't like them, but because no one reads them. In other words, it's not that the books suck, it's that no one knows they exist.

I can see this at work all the time at the bookstore I work at. I'll be shelving the book of a new author, and it'll look like a pretty good book, just not quite my thing. But--uh oh!--the book doesn't fall remotely at eye-level. So no one's really going to casually spot it and take a look. And no one's going to be looking for it, since it's a new author and no one's heard of them before. And lo and behold, a couple of months later, I'll be doing the returns, and every single book I'd put up in the first place gets stripped down and destroyed.

I feel really bad sometimes, because in some cases I know the book doesn't have a chance--for example, in our store, the sci-fi rack is huge, and the top shelf is a good two feet over my head (you need to use a stool to reach stuff). When a new author gets stuck up there, it's a death sentence--no one will ever know it existed. Whereas an already successful author can survive up there, because people are intentionally looking for the book, so they will find it.

What editors like to see I believe is series potential--so that if that first book does miraculously do good, they can milk that cow again and get fans to buy another from the same author. If a book isn't self-contained though and has to be a series...well, if that first book sells bad, so will the next.

After a couple of successful books, I think you can then start proposing series, because by then you'll hopefully have at least a small fanbase of readers who know you exist. But unless you've got a great marketing campaign going, the biggest hurdle a writer faces once the book is published is getting people to realize the book is even there.

[johnzakour]

Originally Posted by Summonere

Short answer: yes.

Long and ambiguous answer: depends on where you want to get published.

"nobody wants a series of books"

That’s because, particularly from first-time authors, this is a bad risk. Go to Vegas with $50,000 in your pocket. Say that each $10,000 represents a book that you, an editor -- duly approached by an agent frothing at the mouth with “this is the best thing since sliced cheese!” -- could buy. Say the roulette wheel represents the market. Say that you put all $50,000 on one spin of the roulette wheel. If you win, you win big. But the odds are better that you’ll lose all $50,000. But if you spend only ten thousand, you’ve still got forty-thousand more that you can use to pick up books from four other authors in case that first one doesn’t work out, and maybe with one of those other authors you'll make back what you spent on giving them each a chance.

Actually, one of the first things Daw told me when talking about why they bought my books is they were really attracted to the fact that they had the potential to make a fun series of stand alone stories.

So I guess it's different for everybody.

[MicheleLee]

Originally Posted by Toothpaste

As to the whole 'series' question, I think most agents AND publishers balk at when they are presented with them because often the author hasn't written a self contained book to begin with, and it is very difficult to sell something when it ends with a cliff hanger AND you are a new writer. Think of all the popular MG series: Harry Potter, A Series of Unfortunate Events, even Eragon. Self contained with the potential for more.

Absolutely! Almost every series I know of aren't cliffhanger books, but a series of independant books that progress along a line. Some of it might also be in the presentation. Anyone querying with "This is my series of 12 books..." is setting themself up for trouble. Don't put the cart before the horse. Sell Book 1 before you start trying to sell books 2-12. It's impossible to sell them as a set.

I made the decision to go after agents long ago because ultimately I'm lazy. Why should I take more time away from my family sending everything I write out to every probable market when I could land an agent and just send it to them and have them do the unpleasant side of the work? More time for me to write!

I think perhap you're looking at agents the wrong way. They aren't so much a wall between you and publishers as they are little businesses that save the publishers money (on slush reader or time spent reading slush, much of which I hear is completely inappropriate even if it is good or bad). By only taking agented subs houses can take the money they would spend on time and manpower and spend it on, I don't know, maybe publishing more books?

[NicoleJLeBoeuf]

Originally Posted by Tallymark

I feel really bad sometimes, because in some cases I know the book doesn't have a chance--for example, in our store, the sci-fi rack is huge, and the top shelf is a good two feet over my head (you need to use a stool to reach stuff). When a new author gets stuck up there, it's a death sentence--no one will ever know it existed. Whereas an already successful author can survive up there, because people are intentionally looking for the book, so they will find it.

On the one hand, I'm grateful to have a last name that's smack-dab in the middle of the shelving unit. Er, alphabet.

On the other hand, a new author could do worse than having a last name that comes right after, or near, Adams, Anthony, Asimov, or Asprin. A reader only knows he's seen all the Xanth novels on the shelf after he gets to the author shelved just to Piers's right.

At least, that's how I found Lynn Abbey's Daughter of the Bright Moon when she was still unknown to me--I was looking for more Hitchhiker's Guide goodness in a used bookstore, and I scanned too far left.

[PeeDee]

Originally Posted by NicoleJLeBoeuf

On the other hand, a new author could do worse than having a last name that comes right after, or near, Adams, Anthony, Asimov, or Asprin. A reader only knows he's seen all the Xanth novels on the shelf after he gets to the author shelved just to Piers's right.

On the other, OTHER hand, I don't know that I'd want to be shelved between "King" and "Koontz"

[NicoleJLeBoeuf]

Originally Posted by PeeDee

On the other, OTHER hand, I don't know that I'd want to be shelved between "King" and "Koontz"

Ouch.

On the fourth tentacle, Ms. Kitchener may say she'd hate to share fans with that talentless hack Koontz , but I doubt she'd say to the teller when she deposits the advance at the bank!

(You may of course substitute "that talentless hack King" if you prefer.)

[PeeDee]

They could happily put me with that talentless hack King. I hate his books so much, I done gone and bought almost all of them in hardcover first editions and read them.

Except I'm "Tzinski," so lord knows who I'd wind up shelved with.

Oh yeah, the slush exists--just like dive bars and VFW wedding receptions exist.

You want to know why we're the Untouchables in the increasing boutique world of publishing? Same reason you didn't go up to Nick the Jock at the cafeteria in 9th grade where he was holding court among his cheerleading courtiers. Listen kittens, there are ways to bypass the slush pile.

(URL deleted for now. Spam's not nice.)

[PeeDee]

Originally Posted by Jamesaritchie

I don't think it matters much at all where you're shelved. Isaac Asimov did pretty well, and so did Roger Zelazny.

It's word of mouth that sells books, not the location on the racks.

Interesting name choice. I always told me mam that no matter what, I was shelved between Asimov and Zelazny, and so I was doing fine.

Anyway, I'm not hugely worried about it (by which I mean, I really don't care).

[Toothpaste]

Pitchbitch, you wanna share some of those techniques, I bet people would really like to read them!

Oh and if you are going to refer to me as an animal, I prefer foxy or vixen. Just for future reference.

[PeeDee]

Originally Posted by Toothpaste

Pitchbitch, you wanna share some of those techniques, I bet people would really like to read them!

Oh and if you are going to refer to me as an animal, I prefer foxy or vixen. Just for future reference.

Can I still call you Hobbes, though?

Pitchbitch, that's an interesting first post. I'm not sure if I agree with either you, or the article you've linked to (Nina Diamond's article). I don't think the article was wrong, I just think it was carefully picking its facts and thus avoiding being entirely right.

[gp101]

No need to hate on agents.

I dread the query process but if agents didn't exist, we'd be doing the same thing with publishers, wouldn't we? If you think your book is good enough to blow away a publisher, then it's probably good enough to blow away an agent. You just have to find the right agent, same as you would have to find the right publisher.

And that's where an agent really earns his/her keep. You may find five publishers of urban fantasy that accept unsolicited manuscripts/queries. But maybe only one of them has room on their list for a newbie (other newbies may have beat you to them with their urban fantasy). Or maybe a shakeup at that pub house has forced them to stop accepting unsolicited manny's; this info usually doesn't hit pubbing lists or the public in general very quickly, especially if you got the listing from a book. Or, maybe your urban fantasy is a subtle sub-genre that only one of those houses will handle. You'd be awful lucky to find the one publisher of those five that will at least read your manny.

A good agent should know which of those five houses (and other houses) will be looking for material like yours. Think of all the time you'd waste going it alone, sending one submission at a time, waiting months on a pub house that has no intentions of reading you. An agent saves you that time and gets you the right pub house for your book, if you've found the right agent.

This process isn't far removed from American Idol. We want to be published (be the next Idol), but in order to land the publishing contract (recording contract), we have a limited amount of time to show our talent by way of query and sample chap's (auditioning in front of judges). We have to impress the gatekeepers, known as agents (the judges--Simon, Paula, and Randy) and stand out from all the other contestants. Then we move on to the next round by way of sending in the entire manuscript, and you make the finals by way of the agent taking you on and shopping your manny around. Thank God there isn't just one, sole winner for us.

Be grateful that we're not told just how horrendous our performance is like they do on Idol. If agents were brutally truthful, they would have had a field day with my first submissions when I queried my first stories years ago, and I may have been disuaded from trying again or sought therapy. And if an agent does tell you off, at least it's not on national TV so that the entire country can laugh. And more importantly, if singers don't quite cut it, there's not much they can do to improve. Either you can sing or you can't. Writers however can improve, so long as there is some talent to start with and a willingness to accept criticism and learn.

Moral of the story... keep trying and improve either your writing or your query package. Things ain't so bad.

[Summonere]

johnzakour

Actually, one of the first things Daw told me when talking about why they bought my books is they were really attracted to the fact that they had the potential to make a fun series of stand alone stories.

So I guess it's different for everybody.

Excellent news. May there be much rejoicing.

[miles]

Originally Posted by Jamesaritchie
And like it or not, readers are much more likely to hate a first novel than to love it.

Originally Posted by Jamesaritchie

It's statistics. On a percentage basis, not many first novels do very well at all.

This is more of a name recognition thing rather than readers not liking the work. If you look at reviews of most first novels, they're usually very high. Readers love them. After all, there had to be something fresh about them to make a publisher take a chance on an unknown, whereas someone like King can take a break from originality for a year and still have a bestseller based on his name alone.

Problem is, no one knows first novels exist unless they stumble into them. People generally go to stores to pick up the latest King or Rowling, not to find the debut novel of Jim Newauthor.

[PeeDee]

Originally Posted by miles

This is more of a name recognition thing rather than readers not liking the work. If you look at reviews of most first novels, they're usually very high. Readers love them. Problem is, no one knows they exist unless they stumble into them. People generally go to stores to pick up the latest King or Rowling, not to find the debut novel of Jim Newauthor.

It can be the work too. There are all sorts of authors who release their first book and it's sort of "eh..." Not bad, but not all that great.

Steve King and Terry Pratchett are two that come to mind. Carrie is readable, and so is The Color of Magic, but I don't like either one. not just in reflection of thier later works, I disliked them when they were the first books by these authosr I'd read.

Then again, there's authors like Emma Bull who release a first novel that's simply stunning, depressingly stunning.

[miles]

Interesting. I based my comments on my own experiences: picking up a couple first novels that I'd heard were good. And they did turn out to be good. Also, seems like when I hear Jim Newauthor mention that his book just came out through Random House, I go to Amazon and always see a ton of good reviews. Perhaps these authors are telling all their friends to give it five stars?

Guess you're right though. These books usually don't turn into great sellers, and I hardly ever buy them (unless, as you said, one is recommended by someone I know).

[johnzakour]

Originally Posted by PeeDee

Interesting name choice. I always told me mam that no matter what, I was shelved between Asimov and Zelazny, and so I was doing fine.

Anyway, I'm not hugely worried about it (by which I mean, I really don't care).

Actually, I am almost always shelved next to Zelazny and it does seem that far more often than not, I have to bend down to find our book on one of the bottom bookshelves. I'm not saying this is a factor in sales, I'm just saying that would be nice to see my book shelved at eye level more often.

[victoriastrauss]

Originally Posted by pitchbitch

Oh yeah, the slush exists--just like dive bars and VFW wedding receptions exist.

You want to know why we're the Untouchables in the increasing boutique world of publishing? Same reason you didn't go up to Nick the Jock at the cafeteria in 9th grade where he was holding court among his cheerleading courtiers. Listen kittens, there are ways to bypass the slush pile.

Take it from an Editor on the Inside

http://pitchbitch.wordpress.com/

Oh god. Another one of those "F*** you, you f***ing wannabe, if you sit at my feet I'll tell you how it really is, and guess what, it really sucks out there in publishingland" blogs.

Hey. I think we already know it's tough out there. Do we really need someone else to tell us that we're jerks and probably doomed to failure?

All I can say is, before you take one of these "insider" blogs too seriously, read the blogger's profile, and think about about how qualified they are to call you names.

- Victoria

[PeeDee]

Originally Posted by johnzakour

Actually, I am almost always shelved next to Zelazny and it does seem that far more often than not, I have to bend down to find our book on one of the bottom bookshelves. I'm not saying this is a factor in sales, I'm just saying that would be nice to see my book shelved at eye level more often.

Has it hurt your sales any, though?

I've had some bookstores where they've had authors I'm looking for on shelves that are way, WAY to high up to reach. Our local Barnes & Noble, for example, is under the impression that I'm well over six feet tall. The point being, if a book's up that high and I'm interested in it (and frequently, it's not an author I know) then I'll get it, somehow.

The amusing thing is that authors (some authors; Pete is generalizing) looking at Getting Accepted For Publication as the big gate you have to get through, to make it. The amusing bit is that mostly, that's the easier part than getting sales and staying published...

[maestrowork]

Originally Posted by MightyScribbler

I think we all wish there was an easier, quicker way, but until someone comes up with one that will benefit all: the writer, the agent, the publisher, the book seller, the book buyer, the book reader, etc., then it's a process we just have to live with.

Everything good is worth waiting for. I find this impatience of writers rather interesting. Granted, I get impatient, too. But upon reflection I think it IS interesting. We spend a year or two or 10 writing and revising the darn thing, then we want the submission and publication process to go as fast as possible, like in 2 weeks. Our perspective suddenly changes -- we can take ALL the time we want, but they can't. It's an egocentric world view on the writer's part: it's always about his or her BOOK and only hers.

The way to do this is to be patient, follow through with the process. In the meantime, work on your second, third, fourth book. There's only upside to that: a) you don't go crazy waiting for responses, and b) if they ask you "Do you have anything else?" you're well prepared, and c) by the time the first book is accepted and published, you will have another ready to go or already in the queue!

That's what a career means.

[maestrowork]

Originally Posted by PeeDee

Has it hurt your sales any, though?

I've had some bookstores where they've had authors I'm looking for on shelves that are way, WAY to high up to reach. Our local Barnes & Noble, for example, is under the impression that I'm well over six feet tall. The point being, if a book's up that high and I'm interested in it (and frequently, it's not an author I know) then I'll get it, somehow.

But this assumption about shelf location could be flawed. My book is shelved next to Virginia Woolf and Stewart Wood. Sometimes it's on the top shelf, sometimes in the middle and sometimes at the bottom. It really depends on how many other books are there. Now, if your last name is indeed Zoolander, chances are your book will most likely go to a bottom shelf UNLESS it lands on a top shelf and they start a whole new section below it. Shelf space is limited at book stores, and they try to utilize it. There really is no formula to calculate where your book will be. And don't worry if you would be next to Stephen King or Hemingway -- chances are, you will be shelved next to someone much more famous than you are. It's actually a good thing. Just be glad that it IS shelved. You're already ahead of the curve.

[Moon Daughter]

I don't think a series for a first time writer is a bad thing necessarily. Of course, I'm not one who could say for sure since I'm definitely an amateur and am just trying to start in this business. But I've seen some very successful first time authors like Laurie Stolarz. I think she published articles before she wrote her first book of her BIFN series, Blue is for Nightmares (which turned out to be decently successful). I think if anyone truly feels they have a good story for a series, regardless if they're a first time author, they should go ahead and write it.

Sorry if my post seems irrelevant. Just thought I'd put my two cents in.

[johnzakour]

Originally Posted by PeeDee

Has it hurt your sales any, though?

Not as much as it hurts my knees bending down so I can give my books a "turn out". (I'm getting old.)

[johnzakour]

Originally Posted by maestrowork

But this assumption about shelf location could be flawed. My book is shelved next to Virginia Woolf and Stewart Wood. Sometimes it's on the top shelf, sometimes in the middle and sometimes at the bottom. It really depends on how many other books are there. Now, if your last name is indeed Zoolander, chances are your book will most likely go to a bottom shelf UNLESS it lands on a top shelf and they start a whole new section below it. Shelf space is limited at book stores, and they try to utilize it. There really is no formula to calculate where your book will be. And don't worry if you would be next to Stephen King or Hemingway -- chances are, you will be shelved next to someone much more famous than you are. It's actually a good thing. Just be glad that it IS shelved. You're already ahead of the curve.

Relating this back to the series question, one thing that does stand out is when you have 3 or 4 books in a row. Then they kind of jump out nomatter where they are shelved.

[Toothpaste]

Moon Daughter - I totally get what you are saying, but this is why I get concerned when first time authors (I am one myself, btw) write a series. Forgetting the whole fact that publishers want proof your book can sell in the first place, before they commision more work. The biggest thing about first time writers who want to write a series in their first try is the sheer quality of the work. For some reason, and especially in the fantasy genre, and even more especially because of books like Harry Potter et al, many first time writers decide they want to write a series. Not that they want to write a story that covers a series, but that they want to follow the example of their writing heros. They almost see it as something they have to write, because they have been so infulenced. They might not even make the choice consciously, the concept of series fiction (especially as I said in fantasy) is so entrenched in our culture. So that instead of focussing on a book, they are focussing on three books (or more) and spreading themselves too thin. They want to be a great series writer, they want to write an epic story. And very rarely then do they want to write a good story.

This is of course a sweeping generalisation, and you can always find someone out there who breaks the mold (Mold? Mould? Mold? Man I suck at the whole spelling thing), but I have to say from the many WIP's I have read, and from my attempts as a teenager even, the writing of a series can often outweigh the importance of the writing of a good story.

(Now this is all said despite the fact that my book deals with all my publishers are for two books in the beginning of a series and I am a first time author myself - however my first book is very much stand alone)