Learn the Publisher's Preferences and Prejudices

ToonedInWriter

Registered
Joined
Apr 13, 2015
Messages
24
Reaction score
1
Harlequin gives some general guidelines as to what they are looking for in their various lines of romance fiction. Other publishers, both of romance and other genres, either do not provide such guidance or allow would-be writers to learn their do's and don'ts as they accumulate rejections. The latter approach has made me aware of what one particular publisher wants:


  • Strong male heroes with a compelling story” (one must define for oneself, however, what “strong” and “compelling” mean).
  • An arc” [i. e., structure] with a beginning, middle, and end, showing one (two if there is a hero and a heroine) character's need to accomplish a goal, their motivation for it, and the conflict that keeps them struggling to achieve the goal.”
  • Action that changes a character.
  • A tone consistent with the expectations of the genre and audience: for example, a hero cannot speak like a professor, even if he is a professor.
  • Show,” don't “tell” (i. e., use dramatization, rather than exposition in narrating the story, a modern prejudice that has pretty much spread throughout genre fiction but remains the exception, rather than the rule, in literary writing).
  • No “head hopping” (i. e., switching between limited points of view within the same scene, which is prohibited in genre writing but fairly common in literary writing). (Some editors seem to make up their own critical terms rather than using established jargon, so if one encounters an editor like this, one must "translate" the editor's idiosyncratic terminology into established jargon, which takes time and energy, or buy a good book on how to write fiction in the genre of one's choice. Personally, I found Leigh Michaels' "On Writing Romance" very helpful in this and other regards.)

(Thanks to Tavia for his clarification concerning what genre editors mean by "head hopping."



I have also learned that romance publishers want a simple story, without literary embellishment, and avoid narratives with symbolism, linguistic complexity, and intellectual sophistication. To give them what they want, a writer must keep it simple, straightforward, and predictable.

A writer's manuscript may be rejected for cause, but it can also be rejected for no other reason than that it did not “fit” the editor's own interests or counters the particular publisher's biases concerning what is and is not acceptable fiction. (Many editors are vague as to why they reject a story, if they offer a reason at all, probably because they themselves don't know why, other than the story didn't appeal to them personally. Although editors claim to represent their readers' interests, it appears that many base decisions strictly on their own fancies.) Therefore, a writer should never take rejection personally. Publishers are often rather whimsical creatures, although they may insist otherwise.


I have also learned that these guidelines, although they sound as unbreakable as commandments are, in fact, simply the preferences and prejudices of one publisher or another. (Publishers publish what they like, although they claim to publish what their readers like.) Each genre publisher has its own set of “criteria,” while literary publishers have few, if any, limitations and restrictions at all, other than excellence. Nevertheless, if a genre writer wants to see his or her writing in print (or in digitized text), he or she needs to learn the publisher's prejudices and preferences and write accordingly. Only when a writer attains the sales of Stephen King or the reputation of Mark Twain can he or she set his or her own rules, agents and publishers be damned.
 
Last edited:

Cyia

Rewriting My Destiny
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 15, 2008
Messages
18,687
Reaction score
4,172
Location
Brillig in the slithy toves...
Nevertheless, if a writer wants to see his or her writing in print (or in digitized text), he or she needs to learn the publisher's prejudices and preferences and write accordingly.

You write the best book you can write. Then, if you want to go with most of the recognizable publishers, you find an agent who can target editors who will be interested in the book you've written.

You only have to "learn the preferences and prejudices" if you're submitting to a particular publisher on your own, which can work, but also be limiting.
 

Tavia

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 12, 2016
Messages
205
Reaction score
78
Website
www.patreon.com
:welcome:

  • No “head hopping” (i. e., stick with a limited point of view, such as first-person or third-person limited, rather than using the omniscient perspective common to literary writing)

That isn't what head hopping means; head hopping means you are using a limited POV but are switching which character the limited POV is focused on mid-scene. Omniscient is different.
 

ToonedInWriter

Registered
Joined
Apr 13, 2015
Messages
24
Reaction score
1
Thanks for the clarification, Tavia. I have corrected my original post, based on your comment. (It would be easier to follow editorial comments if they used standardized jargon.)
 
Last edited:

ToonedInWriter

Registered
Joined
Apr 13, 2015
Messages
24
Reaction score
1
Many literary writers do go their own way, Cyia, at least in the beginning. Some beginning genre writers do, too. Stephen King, for example, comes to mind.
 

Maggie Maxwell

Making Einstein cry since 1994
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 21, 2013
Messages
11,767
Reaction score
10,711
Location
In my head
Website
thewanderingquille.blogspot.com
Thanks for the clarification, Tavia. It would be easier to follow editorial comments if they used standardized jargon.

Actually, "head hopping" is very standard jargon in editing and critting. Like Tavia said, it's when the POV switches limited perspective mid-scene, or "hops" from one head to another.
 

Cyia

Rewriting My Destiny
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 15, 2008
Messages
18,687
Reaction score
4,172
Location
Brillig in the slithy toves...
Omniscient narration is when an outside narrator tells the story from the POV of knowing everything everyone will do, say or think. The voice never breaks; it remains the consistent voice of that outside narrator.

Head hopping is when you're in Character A's head, and hear things in their voice, then slip into Character B's head to hear it in their voice, or take a look at things Character A can't see by borrowing Character C's eyes and hearing things in their voice.

Many literary writers do go their own way, Cyia, at least in the beginning. Some beginning genre writers do, too. Stephen King, for example, comes to mind.

You may go your own way, but there's no way you can tailor one book to the preferences of every publisher you want to approach by reading their online guidelines. You'd end up with a dozen different versions of the same manuscript.

Stephen King started out with short stories, which are completely different from novels, in terms of how you sell them, and he did so in the 60's, which is a completely different market. The first novel he published as Stephen King sold to Doubleday at a time when the conventional wisdom was to make a sale *then* find an agent. That's no longer the norm.
 

Curlz

cutsie-pie
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 5, 2016
Messages
2,213
Reaction score
382
Location
here
Only when a writer attains the sales of Stephen King ...can he or she set his or her own rules, agents and publishers be damned.
Harlequin will not publish Stephen King if he does not comply to their rules either. Your example is not suitable for the purpose of such discussion for the simple reason that Harlequin is more than just a "genre publisher". Harlequin have different lines and each produces a certain product. The Harlequin products are very standardized and that is not typical for "genre publishers" in general. As comparison, Stephen King did indeed publish with a similarly restrictive line of books - Hard Case Crime - and for that he followed their rules meticulously.

And no, you don't need to be a famous name in order to break the rules. All you need is to produce an amazing novel (like The Road, or House of Leaves, but no, those have no chance with Harlequin either).
 

ToonedInWriter

Registered
Joined
Apr 13, 2015
Messages
24
Reaction score
1
TAMaxwell, it appears that the editors of C. Hugh Holman's A Handbook to Literature, which is touted by many literary scholars as a definitive reference concerning both literature and literary criticism” for English works (as well as other such textbooks that are used in college and university courses) neglects to list "head hopping" among the standard terms of the critical jargon. Oddly, “head hopping” is not listed in the glossaries of textbooks used in most college and university textbooks concerning creative writing or literary criticism, either. In fact, “head hopping” appears to be a slang term of relatively recent coinage, originated by non-academics. It may be used by amateurs and professionals in the publishing business, but it is not included in established critical jargon.

Of course, all the edicts concerning whether "head hopping" is permissible or not are themselves highly controversial. Some may consider “head hopping” tantamount to sin, but such successful writers as Stephen King and Charles Dickens, to name but two of many, effectively employ “head hopping” as a narrative technique, as do some romance writers, and the very issue itself as to whether “head hopping” is “good” or “bad” rages among writers, critics, and professors. A couple of websites that give voice to both sides of the issue are Flogging the Quill's “An executive editor's take on 'head-hopping' point of view” at http://www.floggingthequill.com/flogging_the_quill/2004/12/an_executive_ed.html and The Indie Writer's Network's “The Pros and Cons of Head Hopping” at
http://indiewritenet.com/the-pros-and-cons-of-head-hopping/

Some literary techniques, like fads, come and go, and a writer does best, perhaps, not to flout even transient conventions while they hold sway, but to censure a technique that can be, has been, and will likely continue to be used effectively by many writers seems to me to be both unnecessary and pointless.
 
Last edited:

ToonedInWriter

Registered
Joined
Apr 13, 2015
Messages
24
Reaction score
1
Yes, Cyia, I have seen the distinction whereof you write, but it is not one to which everyone adheres. The issue further complexifies when limited omniscient point of view enters the discussion:
http://www.the-writers-craft.com/omniscient-point-of-view.html

(By the way, Stephen King is still writing today, is still "head hopping," and is still selling millions of copies of his books.)


 
Last edited:

ToonedInWriter

Registered
Joined
Apr 13, 2015
Messages
24
Reaction score
1
I don't think Stephen King is interested in having Harlequin publish his books, Curtz, so your assertion seems not only hypothetical but irrelevant to the point at issue. Harlequin most certainly is a genre publisher. I do agree with you, though, that anyone can break "rules" as a writer. Many do and get published, especially in literary circles wherein experimental forms of fiction are encouraged.
 

CL Polk

Banned
Flounced
Joined
Dec 11, 2015
Messages
428
Reaction score
70
Location
Canada
Well, Toonedin. You can hop those heads if you want. You can do *anything* you can get away with. but Omniscient POV takes a lot of skill and raw nerve to pull off, so writers are warned away. if the prohibition doesn't apply to you, of course you can make the choices that serve your narrative best. that applies to any literary technique, formal or vernacular.
 

ToonedInWriter

Registered
Joined
Apr 13, 2015
Messages
24
Reaction score
1
Than you, CL Polk

Yes, CL Polk, many writers "hop those heads" on a regular basis and have more sales than a lot of the writers who feel bound to obey "rules" that others seek to establish. H. G. Wells believed that critics and publishers often sought to restrict writers arbitrarily with the result that they impeded the development of fiction, rather than benefited it. Wells himself, of course, left a body of work of considerable merit, some of which includes "head hopping." I myself especially enjoy his "The Red Room" and "The Cone."
 
Last edited:

Cyia

Rewriting My Destiny
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 15, 2008
Messages
18,687
Reaction score
4,172
Location
Brillig in the slithy toves...
TAMaxwell, it appears that the editors of C. Hugh Holman's A Handbook to Literature, which is touted by many literary scholars as a definitive reference concerning both literature and literary criticism” for English works (as well as other such textbooks that are used in college and university courses) neglects to list "head hopping" among the standard terms of the critical jargon. Oddly, “head hopping” is not listed in the glossaries of textbooks used in most college and university textbooks concerning creative writing or literary criticism, either. In fact, “head hopping” appears to be a slang term of relatively recent coinage, originated by non-academics. It may be used by amateurs and professionals in the publishing business, but it is not included in established critical jargon.

Perhaps because head hopping is not something that such programs tend to instill in the authors participating in them. To head hop is to poorly execute an omniscient point of view, so it's likely that professors and mentors simply refer to this as: mistake, wrong, incorrect, or failure. I'm sure these are terms with which any academic - especially one in a writing program - is familiar.

Of course, all the edicts concerning whether "head hopping" is permissible or not are themselves highly controversial.

Not to anyone who actually recognizes what the term means.

Some may consider “head hopping” tantamount to sin, but such successful writers as Stephen King and Charles Dickens, to name but two of many, effectively employ “head hopping” as a narrative technique,

Sorry, no. Stephen King is fond of, and skilled at, using Omniscient as his POV of choice. Dickens wrote for a different cultural norm. If you want to use him as an example, then you'd have to also cite his sentence structure, idioms, and other conventions as ones to be adopted as well.

as do some romance writers,
I'll agree with you on this one, but it's not near so many as you'd think. There are also some mystery writers who do this. Some sci-fi writers who do this. Some [insert any possible genre] writers who do this. You find it in all genres. That doesn't make it right.

and the very issue itself as to whether “head hopping” is “good” or “bad” rages among writers, critics, and professors.
That's a strange observation for someone to point out when they start their argument with the contention that the term isn't used in academia. Where then do these professors teach, I wonder.


Some literary techniques, like fads, come and go, and a writer does best, perhaps, not to flout even transient conventions while they hold sway, but to censure a technique that can be, has been, and will likely continue to be used effectively by many writers seems to me to be both unnecessary and pointless.

The goal of language - the only goal of language - is to facilitate the communication of ideas. The goal of grammar is to set parameters in which that communication occurs, also to facilitate understanding of what's being said. The goal of editing is to enforce those parameters to the extent which best conveys the meaning and intent of the author. (The secondary goal of editing is to encourage one to manually and forcefully remove strands of their own hair a fistful at a time.)

A mistake is used effective only when it is acknowledged as a mistake, in which case, it can be used as flavoring the same way sentence fragments or accented speech can be used. Mistakes do not facilitate the communication of ideas when they are rebranded as technique.

Your technique may be to swim in sand, but that won't get you across the English Channel.

Snark, sarcasm and deadpan humor are all highly effective means of communicating information and subtext.
 

Roxxsmom

Beastly Fido
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 24, 2011
Messages
23,148
Reaction score
10,947
Location
Where faults collide
Website
doggedlywriting.blogspot.com
A publisher who published what their editors like instead of what their readers like probably wouldn't stay in business very long. Perhaps it's more accurate to say that successful publishers employ editors who have the same kinds of taste as their core readership. They may screw up fairly often (no one has a crystal ball, and only a small percentage of books become bestsellers), but if editors only bought what they liked, and what they liked was different from their readership's tastes, no one would ever get a rejection that says, "I really loved this, but [insert subgenre or story type] isn't selling well for us right now."

I don't read enough romance to say whether or not complex themes and stories are generally unwelcome, but I've certainly read some that seem to be dealing with weighty issues (like feminism or class struggles or racism etc), though the focus is on the love story and a satisfactory resolution to these problems for the protagonist. That may be an eye of the beholder thing, though. And as a fantasy and SF reader, I can say there's a great deal of deepness there as well as a great deal of variation in writing style.

And I'd so read a romance where the MMC talked like a professor (am one and am married to one, so eh).

I didn't know that literary fiction relied mainly on exposition or telling, though. I had to look that up to see what that meant (found this Wendig blog entry on exposition and making it work. I think he qualifies as a genre fiction writer, and he is giving advice on how to fold the exposition into the story action for the most part). So what you're saying is in literary fiction, most of the plot-driving stuff happens "off stage" and is summarized later with narrative summary or via devices like "As you know, Bob," conversations, while in genre fiction, most of the plot driving stuff happens "on screen," or is shown as it unfolds.

So I'm puzzled by your claim that literary fiction is mostly exposition. To be honest, I think every story needs a certain amount of summary (you can't show everything as it unfolds, or the book would have to take place in just an afternoon or be a million words long), but I have trouble seeing how a book that's mostly narrative summary would be very interesting. That would read more like a work of non fiction that's telling me a bunch of facts about who did what without pulling me into the world and story.

Maybe I need some examples of famous literary novels that are mostly exposition to see if we're even talking about the same thing here. Because I'm not a spring chicken, and my writing teachers were extolling the virtues of "showing not telling" when I was in middle school and praising examples of such in the classic novels they made us read. So it doesn't feel like a recent fad that's limited to genre fiction to me.

As for head hopping, could you provide examples of some literary novels that do this? Omniscient doesn't count as head hopping (and a shocking number of authors who blog on this subject don't seem to know this), because with omniscient, the narrative viewpoint is external and that's not the same thing as zipping back and forth between limited narratives. Maybe omniscient third is more common in literary novels than limited third, though it seems like first person is fairly common as well.

But omniscient third =/= head hopping. Head hopping is a term that tends to get used when pov shifts are done too frequently or without adequate framing, so the reader gets confused. If someone switches pov within a scene and it's done in a way that doesn't make the reader go "Wuh? Why is Heterosexual Henry checking out some dude's butt? Oh, wait, we're in Sue's pov now, and it's Henry's butt she's checking out." then it's not head hopping.

One thing that concerns me about the OP is it feels like it's dripping with thinly veiled contempt for genre fiction (romance in particular) and its publishers and editors. Hey, it's fine if you don't like those kinds of stories, but why on earth would you be attempting to write something (or offering advice on writing something) if you find it lacking in qualities you like, such as, "symbolism, linguistic complexity, and intellectual sophistication"? And why would you want to write and publish in a genre where you feel like the editors are unprofessional enough to let their whims guide them instead of picking up stories they think their readers will like?
 
Last edited:

Cyia

Rewriting My Destiny
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 15, 2008
Messages
18,687
Reaction score
4,172
Location
Brillig in the slithy toves...
The example I tend to use with Omni vs. Head Hopping Harry is the accident scene. I

magine an accident with five witnesses. A cop asks them all what happened.

Each will reply in their own voice and their own point of view. It's confusing. It's annoying. It's not getting the story across well. - This is head hopping.

Then the cop tells them all to shut up, turns to one bystander and gets their account. Clear, concise and likely flawed. - This is 1st person.

Then, the cop realizes that there's a teenager filming the whole thing and takes a look at the video - This is Omni. You're outside the action, but get a consistent view on all of it. You can focus on a particular person if you need to, but you don't have to.

It's not a perfect analogy, as Omni also allows inside the characters' thoughts or intentions if you need them, but voice remains that of the external viewer.
 

Viridian

local good boy
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 20, 2013
Messages
3,076
Reaction score
557

(Thanks to Tavia for his clarification concerning what genre editors mean by "head hopping."
Tavia is a woman, yo.

If you have to guess, use female pronouns. Most readers, writers, and editors are women.
 

ToonedInWriter

Registered
Joined
Apr 13, 2015
Messages
24
Reaction score
1
Perhaps because head hopping is not something that such programs tend to instill in the authors participating in them. To head hop is to poorly execute an omniscient point of view, so it's likely that professors and mentors simply refer to this as: mistake, wrong, incorrect, or failure. I'm sure these are terms with which any academic - especially one in a writing program - is familiar.

The term does not appear in academic texts because it is not in the critical lexicon of scholars, Cyia.

Not to anyone who actually recognizes what the term means.


Sorry, no. Stephen King is fond of, and skilled at, using Omniscient as his POV of choice. Dickens wrote for a different cultural norm. If you want to use him as an example, then you'd have to also cite his sentence structure, idioms, and other conventions as ones to be adopted as well.

Stephen King also "head hops," and quite frequently, in fact. As far as recommending Dickens' style, I wouldn't "have to" do any such thing, Cyia. An artist is free to select his or her techniques as he or she pleases. To choose one alternative and not the others is perfectly within a writer's range of abilities. However, some contemporary writers do, in fact, emulate Dickens in these other areas as well--Dan Simmons, for example.

I'll agree with you on this one, but it's not near so many as you'd think. There are also some mystery writers who do this. Some sci-fi writers who do this. Some [insert any possible genre] writers who do this. You find it in all genres. That doesn't make it right.

Nor does it make it "wrong."

That's a strange observation for someone to point out when they start their argument with the contention that the term isn't used in academia. Where then do these professors teach, I wonder.

Professors often address topics that students ask about, even if the topics of their students' inquiry are not listed in or addressed by a textbook, even if only to clarify concepts, both of an academic and a popular nature. Professors are under the illusion that such an approach is, or can be, instructive.


The goal of language - the only goal of language - is to facilitate the communication of ideas. The goal of grammar is to set parameters in which that communication occurs, also to facilitate understanding of what's being said. The goal of editing is to enforce those parameters to the extent which best conveys the meaning and intent of the author. (The secondary goal of editing is to encourage one to manually and forcefully remove strands of their own hair a fistful at a time.)

Hopefully, you understand the difference between prescriptive grammar and the rhetoric of narrative. (By the way, descriptive grammarians would disagree, in large measure, with your premise concerning what you refer to as "the goal of grammar," and many an editor would take issue with your account of "the goal of editing"--or, at least, with your idea of editing's primary role. (I daresay many writers and editors would agree with your idea of editing's "secondary role.")

A mistake is used effective only when it is acknowledged as a mistake, in which case, it can be used as flavoring the same way sentence fragments or accented speech can be used. Mistakes do not facilitate the communication of ideas when they are rebranded as technique.

Your technique may be to swim in sand, but that won't get you across the English Channel.

Snark, sarcasm and deadpan humor are all highly effective means of communicating information and subtext.

I don't think an artist's effective use of a technique qualifies as a "mistake," so I would have to reject the premise of your assertion.

My comments seem to have generated many responses and some thought, so I guess I, like you and the others who have been part of the conversation, have made contributions, whether we agree or agree to disagree with one another, at least, and the discussion has been, by and large, polite, which is always a plus.
 
Last edited:

Cyia

Rewriting My Destiny
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 15, 2008
Messages
18,687
Reaction score
4,172
Location
Brillig in the slithy toves...
A mistake, by definition, is not a technique.

By your own admission, the term is not taught by your professors as a writing technique. It's not taught because it's not a technique at all; it's an error. Whether or not it appears as named in your text doesn't negate its being, nor does it negate that writers, editors, and publishers use the term - even in literary writing.

Professional writing =/= academic writing. One is writing to appeal to a broad audience; the other is writing to appeal to (and impress) an individual. You won't convince an editor to take on a piece using circular logic such as "X doesn't exist because it's neither in my text books, nor acknowledged by my professors." Those editors know the terms. They use the terms. They do not debate the existence of the terms, or the results of someone whose writing is full of them.

It's an entirely different language, the same as with any business. There are acronyms and shorthand that don't make sense to anyone not working in the same industry. There are codified standard terminologies that require immersion training. You either learn to speak in manner consistent with others in your industry, or you fall behind.

(It gets really fun if you go into screenwriting. Then you get to add another dialect on top of the one you learned by getting into writing, and half the "rules" no longer apply or exist in a state of altered reality. And that's before you get to Hollyweird.)
 

Roxxsmom

Beastly Fido
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 24, 2011
Messages
23,148
Reaction score
10,947
Location
Where faults collide
Website
doggedlywriting.blogspot.com
Oh, and as for head hopping being a new concept that wasn't even discussed by academics or covered in writing classes, I disagree. I took a creative writing class back in college, and our textbook was Writing Fiction by Janet Burroway, which was published in 1982. I don't know if you'd count her as an academic or not (she's a professional writer not an English professor but she has numerous degrees related to writing and drama, and her book is still widely used in creative writing classes at colleges and universities around the country.

While Burroway didn't use the term "head hopping" in her book, she definitely addressed the concept in her chapter on narrative viewpoint under the heading "consistency: a final caution."

In establishing a story's point of view, you make your own rules, but having made them you must stick to them. Your position as a writer is analogous to that of a poet who may choose whether to write free verse or a ballad stanza ... Beginning writers of fiction are often tempted to shift viewpoint when it is both unnecessary and disruptive for readers.

"Leo's neck flushed against the prickly weave of his uniform collar. He concentrated on his buttons and tried not to look in the face of the bandmaster, who, however, was more amused than angry."

This is an awkward point of view shift because, having felt Leo's embarrassment, we are suddenly asked to leap into the bandmaster's feelings...

Head hopping by any other name is still confusing.
 
Last edited:

Cyia

Rewriting My Destiny
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 15, 2008
Messages
18,687
Reaction score
4,172
Location
Brillig in the slithy toves...
While Burroway didn't use the term "head hopping" in her book,

I think this is the OP's bone of ultimate contention with the term. S/he seems to be making a case that a thing undefined is a thing non-existent, and that's not the case. If it were, ideas wouldn't exist, and neither would a great deal of mathematics and physics.
 

ToonedInWriter

Registered
Joined
Apr 13, 2015
Messages
24
Reaction score
1
A publisher who published what their editors like instead of what their readers like probably wouldn't stay in business very long. Perhaps it's more accurate to say that successful publishers employ editors who have the same kinds of taste as their core readership. They may screw up fairly often (no one has a crystal ball, and only a small percentage of books become bestsellers), but if editors only bought what they liked, and what they liked was different from their readership's tastes, no one would ever get a rejection that says, "I really loved this, but [insert subgenre or story type] isn't selling well for us right now."

Publishers publish what they believe their readers may want to read, Roxxsmom. There is no way they can know, because they (presumably) are not psychic, and publishing history is not an altogether accurate or reliable predictor of readers' future behavior, and even scientific surveys (rarely used) are only more or less probably accurate, as David Hume's An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding, in principle, made clear in 1748.

I don't read enough romance to say whether or not complex themes and stories are generally unwelcome, but I've certainly read some that seem to be dealing with weighty issues (like feminism or class struggles or racism etc), though the focus is on the love story and a satisfactory resolution to these problems for the protagonist. That may be an eye of the beholder thing, though. And as a fantasy and SF reader, I can say there's a great deal of deepness there as well as a great deal of variation in writing style.

You seem to know a good deal about the issues and focus of romances for someone who, by her own admission, does "not read enough" of the genre to hazard an opinion as to whether romances tend to involve "complex issues." Reading more of them, however, might suggest to you, as it has convinced many others, that romance novels, although they may be entertaining, lack the depth and sophistication of, say, Mark Twain, William Faulkner, Walker Percy, or Flannery O'Connor.

And I'd so read a romance where the MMC talked like a professor (am one and am married to one, so eh).

I didn't know that literary fiction relied mainly on exposition or telling, though. I had to look that up to see what that meant (found this Wendig blog entry on exposition and making it work. I think he qualifies as a genre fiction writer, and he is giving advice on how to fold the exposition into the story action for the most part). So what you're saying is in literary fiction, most of the plot-driving stuff happens "off stage" and is summarized later with narrative summary or via devices like "As you know, Bob," conversations, while in genre fiction, most of the plot driving stuff happens "on screen," or is shown as it unfolds.

So I'm puzzled by your claim that literary fiction is mostly exposition. To be honest, I think every story needs a certain amount of summary (you can't show everything as it unfolds, or the book would have to take place in just an afternoon or be a million words long), but I have trouble seeing how a book that's mostly narrative summary would be very interesting. That would read more like a work of non fiction that's telling me a bunch of facts about who did what without pulling me into the world and story.

I suggest that you read C. Hugh Holman's A Handbook to Literature, Roxxsmom, and some of the work by writers whose literature Harold Bloom of Yale University suggests as being formative of the American portion of the Western literary canon: Edgar Allan Poe, Henry David Thoreau Thoreau, Edith Wharton, Theodore Dreiser, Edwin Arlington Robinson, Willa Cather, Ernest Hemingway, F. Scott Fitzgerald, William Carlos Williams, Marianne Moore, Ralph Ellison, and Flannery O'Connor. One might do well to read, in addition, some of Bloom's own books, such as The Daemon Knows: Literary Greatness and the American Sublime, in which he evaluates the key works of Walt Whitman, Herman Melville, Ralph Waldo Emerson, Nathaniel Hawthorne, Emily Dickinson, Henry James, Mark Twain, Robert Frost, Wallace Stevens, T. S. Eliot, William Faulkner, and Hart Crane. (Lest one feel the need to point out that not all of the writers on these lists are novelists or a short story writers, let me point out that several are, indeed, poets, and a few are essayists. Of course, a writer of prose can learn much from a poet, and Bloom's book is not about novels or novelists, but about "literary greatness and the American sublime," but your concern is about the use of exposition in narrative, and in reading about the prose writers whom Bloom evaluates, especially Melville, for whom Bloom has the highest regard, James, and Faulkner, you can learn from an expert about this critically important narrative mode, as you can, indeed, by reading most of the other prose writers on Bloom's lists.)


Maybe I need some examples of famous literary novels that are mostly exposition to see if we're even talking about the same thing here. Because I'm not a spring chicken, and my writing teachers were extolling the virtues of "showing not telling" when I was in middle school and praising examples of such in the classic novels they made us read. So it doesn't feel like a recent fad that's limited to genre fiction to me.

See above.

As for head hopping, could you provide examples of some literary novels that do this? Omniscient doesn't count as head hopping (and a shocking number of authors who blog on this subject don't seem to know this), because with omniscient, the narrative viewpoint is external and that's not the same thing as zipping back and forth between limited narratives. Maybe omniscient third is more common in literary novels than limited third, though it seems like first person is fairly common as well.

See above. Also, Miguel de Cervantes' classic The Adventures of Don Quixote de la Mancha is a good example of an acclaimed picaresque novel that is not only largely expository but also includes many instances of "head hopping." Gil Blas is another (Mark Twain cites it as a model for his own The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn. The classic Journey to the West (aka Monkey) by Wu Cheng'en is another example both of exposition and "head hopping." Many contemporary experimental novels, such as some by William S. Burroughs, pretty much discard all literary conventions.

But omniscient third =/= head hopping. Head hopping is a term that tends to get used when pov shifts are done too frequently or without adequate framing, so the reader gets confused. If someone switches pov within a scene and it's done in a way that doesn't make the reader go "Wuh? Why is Heterosexual Henry checking out some dude's butt? Oh, wait, we're in Sue's pov now, and it's Henry's butt she's checking out." then it's not head hopping.

One thing that concerns me about the OP is it feels like it's dripping with thinly veiled contempt for genre fiction (romance in particular) and its publishers and editors. Hey, it's fine if you don't like those kinds of stories, but why on earth would you be attempting to write something (or offering advice on writing something) if you find it lacking in qualities you like, such as, "symbolism, linguistic complexity, and intellectual sophistication"? And why would you want to write and publish in a genre where you feel like the editors are unprofessional enough to let their whims guide them instead of picking up stories they think their readers will like?

I believe that all forms of literature are valuable, although for different reasons.

Thanks for your thoughtful comments, Roxxsmom. I enjoyed reading them.

I apologize for any typos or misspellings. My computer nearly crashed while I was posting this response, and I wanted to post it again before I lost it altogether.
 
Last edited:

Roxxsmom

Beastly Fido
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 24, 2011
Messages
23,148
Reaction score
10,947
Location
Where faults collide
Website
doggedlywriting.blogspot.com
Writers and editors are more guilty than people in other professions, perhaps, of using highly varied terminology for the same things. It can be confusing as heck for a beginner who is just starting out. I know I used to gnash my teeth (sometimes I still do) over terms like "subjective third," "limited third," "close third," and even just "third person" to describe the concept of being in third person while only including the thoughts, perceptions, emotions, words etc. of a particular character the narrative (sort of like first person, but with different pronoun usage). I finally figured it out, though it can still cause problems in forum discussions when one person thinks that "third person" is a default for "omniscient third," while another thinks it's a default term for "limited third," and yet another thinks "third person" is a broader category that needs further narrowing to distinguish between omniscient third and limited or subjective third.

I suspect the OP is at a point where they are frustrated by this issue, and they're trying to sort it all out. The truth is, writers and publishing professionals do tend to have their own personal or "in house" terms for things. I have four craft books on narrative pov (and several others that have chapters on it), and none of them use the exact same terminology (though the ones that use "head hopping" are pretty consistent about what that means, at least). But if you read carefully, it becomes clear that the same basic categories and concepts are covered by all.

The map is not the territory, as Alfred Korzybski said.

As for concerns about how romance publishers work? If you think the genre is too narrow or not receptive to the sorts of things you write, then what you write probably isn't genre romance. There's nothing wrong with this. A story can be "romantic" without being "a romance," and there are numerous examples of romantic stories in other commercial genres and in general and literary fiction too.

There are tons of genres, and literary fiction is still a lucrative market, if that's where your love is. Check out querytracker. More agents accept literary fiction than any other "genre," and looking at recent offers of representation, I see three offers on literary fiction novels in just the past couple weeks. Note, these are offers of agent representation, not publication, so these manuscripts have just achieved one important step in a long journey that could still end in failure. But like editors, agents who only take manuscripts they like, without any thought to their marketability, won't be in the business long.


Note--Huckleberry Finn was written in first person and stuck with Huck's viewpoint throughout. So I think you mean something entirely different by the term "head hopping" than the rest of us do. As for Huck Finn and the other novels you provide as being mostly exposition? I'd have to reread them with a notebook to get the relative percentages of narrative summary versus action, dialog etc described as it unfolds. Not the best use of my time, since I am trying to write in a more modern style and prefer stories that describe the plot-driving action and events as they occur.

But if you have a novel you're writing that's similar in style to Huck Finn, or these other classics, then go for it. Write what you love and do it as well as you can.
 
Last edited:

Viridian

local good boy
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 20, 2013
Messages
3,076
Reaction score
557
Let's clear something up.

Reading them, however, convinces many that they, although they may be entertaining, they lack the depth and sophistication of, say, Mark Twain, William Faulkner, Walker Percy, or Flannery O'Connor.
Genre fiction must be entertaining.

Literary fiction must be intellectual.

That does not mean that romance (or any other genre fiction) is anti-intellectual. Complex themes, unpredictable plots, and deep thought are welcome in any story. Saying that romance is anti-intellectual is like saying literary fiction is anti-fun. It's not that literary fiction is against fun... it's just that fun is not required.

You seem to know a good deal about the issues and focus of romances for someone who, by her own admission, does "not read enough" of the genre to hazard an opinion as to whether romances tend to involve "complex issues."
Funny. I was about to say the same thing to you. You obviously don't read it, and yet you obviously feel qualified to dissect it.
 
Last edited: