A GAME OF THRONES (HBO) -- POSSIBLE SPOILERS

Not a fan of the sand snakes in the books (or Dorne in general) but find them even more useless in this series. I'm trying to understand their purpose at all, except to kill Myrcella and piss off Cersei. Why all the political drama with the former ruler who was murdered? Seemed to be relegated to world-building window dressing in the end. That said, as much as I love to hate Cersei, I will enjoy watching her get revenge on Elliara for poisining Myrcella.


Great seeing Nymeria again! I liked that they didn't linger in that moment too long. Nymeria has her own pack now, her own family, and I do hope to see her again.


I loved how Daenerys' arrival was spun by those in Westeros: e.g., Cersei and those in the north. Dany described as a girl-gone-native who murders nobles and crucifies them, then, when she runs out of things to do, she feeds people who cross her to her dragons. Why wouldn't those who side with the Lannisters believe this? Especially those old enough to remember how shit-kittens nuts the Mad King was? Cersei is playing this smart.


Sansa is too and it's kind of an easy and convenient position to take when it comes to all the hate she gets. Those in the north have even more reason to dislike and distrust the Targaryens, given that Rhaegar supposedly kidnapped Ned's sister, Lyana, and boom! War. The north has absolutely no reason to:


A. Want to get into the political bed with Daenerys


or


B. Believe the threat from north of the wall is really that bad.....


Sadly, "B" above is due to lazy writing and poor execution. Why didn't Jon Snow lock his ass in a room with the new Winterfell Maester and dictate every single detail about what he saw and experienced with the White Walkers? And why isn't that Maester sending birds up the ying yang to every corner of Westeros to warn people of the coming darkness? Why didn't Jon sit down with Sansa and say, "Okay, here is what happened." He has others there to corroborate his story and he was a member of the Night's Watch and is respected now as a Stark. All we get is, "You can't possibly know what's coming from the north."


Well, Jon Snow, how about you lay it all out, buddy? Because if the lords in the north believed even 1/10th of what you've seen and experienced, you'd have them crapping their pants. I don't understand this disconnect. Even if these conversations happened "off screen," the lords seem pretty lukewarm about the undead army to the north.


And Sansa, well, she speaks FOR These lords. From her (and their) perspective, Jon is ruling a bit recklessly. Yes, rush off to meet the Targaryen who is demanding you bend the knee, Jon Snow. That'll work out great! While fans are already shipping these two, A Song of Ice and Fire can also be about two heroes and their massive icy/fiery egos. I don't see those two warming up quickly. Tyrion will certainly have to facilitate diplomacy here. (Melisandre will be useless in bringing these sides together as Snow and Davos will not appreciate a reunion with the red witch.)


Theon leaving was his only choice. Euron would have killed him or done worse. He has a chance to survive, imho.

Ned didn't want to be the Hand. Catelyn convinced him that he had to accept Robert's offer...

Just thought of something.

Danearys plans on taking Casterly Rock, right? Wasn't Tyrion in charge of all the sewers at one point? Wouldn't that be a great way to know the 'back way' into a castle? Here, unsullied, come with me through the sewers and into the castle.

Being the Hand wasn't Ned's downfall. It was the notion that folks would give a shit if he tried to unmask the incest/lack of legit heirs issue. Because, by now, we can see that folks don't care one way or the other. Lineage is just a game piece. But Euron (who is basically from the sticks) can joke about Cersei and Jaime and no one cares. Not even Cersei. The supposed scandal is just an excuse to get rid of folks who are a threat for other reasons.

The only one who would have cared about Cersei and Jaimie (aside from Cersei and Jaimie) were Tywin and Robert, and maybe Stannis. Tywin because he'd poured so much into the notion of his family legacy and Robert because it meant that none of the children in his line of succession were actually entitled to that succession. Gendry would have been higher on the list than Joffrey. Stannis could have used that information to make a claim that the throne was his by right of kinship to the king.

Granted, Ned and Catelyn wouldn't have been too keen on knowing why their kid got pushed out a window, either.

That was a meh episode. I did like Varys's little speech, though. Gotta say, for a eunuch that guy has some big brass balls.

If Theon had charged at Euron, he would have gotten Yara killed as well as himself. Although Yara would probably prefer to go down fighting -- that look on her face was heartbreaking. Her love for her little brother seems to be her weak point.

I've been rooting for Yara ever since I found out that GRRM based her character on one of my favourite people from history: "Sea Queen of ireland" Gráinne (Grace) O'Malley. The meeting between Yara and Daenerys mirrors the real-life meeting of O'Malley with Queen Elizabeth I.

I have a soft spot for Grainne O'Mhaile as well - especially as I write historical fiction set in Ireland I even mention her as the ancestor of one of my characters. Someday I might write a novel about her, but I know it's been done already by Morgan Llewellyn, and who am I to compete with Morgan?

Since your location is a 'small rainy island' I'm going to hazard a guess you are in Ireland, autumnleaf?

Not much would stop me from watching GoT, but I'm just a wee bit disappointed in Season 7 so far. Part of that has to do with knowing there are precious few episodes left, so some of the choices of what to spend time on (e.g. the Hound's story? who cares? long desirous looks and a sex scene between Grey Worm and Missandre? the Samwell and Joran storyline?), seem kind of wasted. I loved Arya's story in previous seasons, but I have to say now that there's little time to resolve big, big, picture stuff, it also has me scratching my head, wondering how important it is.

(Plus my stubborn internal logic side is bothered by the question: if she gave up on serving the nameless god, how does she still have those face changing powers?)

The big hook for me is what happens when everyone finds out that Jon Snow is a Targaryen. That's juicy as can be! And of course, the expectation of a battle scene with dragons. Yes, please!!

AyJay said:

The big hook for me is what happens when everyone finds out that Jon Snow is a Targaryen. That's juicy as can be! And of course, the expectation of a battle scene with dragons. Yes, please!!

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Of the three people who could potentially make the revelation, one is with Jon (for now; soon he'll only be with Sansa), one is with Dany (and soon, also Jon), and one is with the Night's Watch. I'm hoping this plot point will start to heat up.

ManInBlack said:

Of the three people who could potentially make the revelation, one is with Jon (for now; soon he'll only be with Sansa), one is with Dany (and soon, also Jon), and one is with the Night's Watch. I'm hoping this plot point will start to heat up.

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Yep, I hope to see Bran again in the next episode. It would have been nice to think of a reunion in Winterfell between Bran, Sansa, Jon, and Arya, but highly unlikely....

AyJay said:

(Plus my stubborn internal logic side is bothered by the question: if she gave up on serving the nameless god, how does she still have those face changing powers?)

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Just because you give up on the nameless god doesn't mean that the nameless gives up on you?

AyJay said:

(Plus my stubborn internal logic side is bothered by the question: if she gave up on serving the nameless god, how does she still have those face changing powers?)

The big hook for me is what happens when everyone finds out that Jon Snow is a Targaryen. That's juicy as can be! And of course, the expectation of a battle scene with dragons. Yes, please!!

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1. YES, I cannot wait until that big reveal, but wonder how it will go over if the only proof is secondhand and third-hand testimony. Even Bran's. I wonder if they can prove it somehow with how the dragons react to Jon. Maybe they can sense Targaryens?

2. I need to rewatch the episodes with Jaqen and Arya and how those two separated--how things ended for her with the Faceless Men. I almost seem to remember thinking that Arya was exactly what (and where) Jaqen wanted her to be. I don't know why. I don't think she would be able to "steal" the ability to change faces like that if she was not doing the many-faced god's work. Perhaps the Faceless men wanted all of those people to die (that she has killed so far) or wants chaos to rule in Westeros. I'd be curious to know WHY Jaqen lets her operate unchecked. He could certainly stop her.

I happened to rewatch that episode recently. (Yes, I was one of those people who celebrated all weekend before the series premiere rewatching Season 6).

I suppose it could be interpreted in different ways, but for me, after Arya disobeyed Jaqen's orders (multiple times), and declared her name was Arya Stark, she was pretty clearly dismissing herself from service; and she literally walks out of the temple. It just seems to me that to be a servant of the nameless god, you have to give up your personal identity and history. And Arya was declaring she's not giving that up. She's ready to go back to her previous life.

Your take on it could make sense (and it seems that's what the writers wanted): Jaqen had everything planned all along, helping Arya achieve her life purpose I guess through breaking her down, training her in combat/magic so she could destroy her enemies. That's just a little too cute for my tastes, though. May be a personal pet peeve storytelling-wise. I mean, it's based on the idea that Jaqen has a stake in Arya's revenge (and the god has a stake in it too), so it's an awfully long way around helping the poor girl, and sort of a manipulative plot device.

ETA: I still love Arya! (And Jaqen)

autumnleaf said:

I've been rooting for Yara ever since I found out that GRRM based her character on one of my favourite people from history: "Sea Queen of ireland" Gráinne (Grace) O'Malley. The meeting between Yara and Daenerys mirrors the real-life meeting of O'Malley with Queen Elizabeth I.

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I've been in the Yara camp too, but didn't know he had based her on O'Malley. Now I'm even more sad her days on the show are likely numbered.

greendragon said:

I have a soft spot for Grainne O'Mhaile as well - especially as I write historical fiction set in Ireland I even mention her as the ancestor of one of my characters. Someday I might write a novel about her, but I know it's been done already by Morgan Llewellyn, and who am I to compete with Morgan?

Since your location is a 'small rainy island' I'm going to hazard a guess you are in Ireland, autumnleaf?

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Yes, I'm based in Galway, and I also write historical fiction. Loved the Morgan Llewellyn book about Grainne; that would be a hard act to follow.

sideshowdarb said:

I've been in the Yara camp too, but didn't know he had based her on O'Malley. Now I'm even more sad her days on the show are likely numbered.

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Sadly I think you're right; it's unlikely Yara will make it to the end of the season. The real O'Malley lived into old age, fighting all the way!

I have an unhealthy fascination with female pirates. Ching Shih, a Chinese woman, was another great sea queen -- and possibly the most successful pirate leader of all time.

ManInBlack said:

Of the three people who could potentially make the revelation, one is with Jon (for now; soon he'll only be with Sansa), one is with Dany (and soon, also Jon), and one is with the Night's Watch. I'm hoping this plot point will start to heat up.

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I was so convinced Littlefinger was about to break the news to Jon in the crypt, since I seem to remember that he knows (or strongly suspects). I guess they're holding that revelation for when Jon and Dany meet?

CrastersBabies said:

2. I need to rewatch the episodes with Jaqen and Arya and how those two separated--how things ended for her with the Faceless Men. I almost seem to remember thinking that Arya was exactly what (and where) Jaqen wanted her to be. I don't know why. I don't think she would be able to "steal" the ability to change faces like that if she was not doing the many-faced god's work. Perhaps the Faceless men wanted all of those people to die (that she has killed so far) or wants chaos to rule in Westeros. I'd be curious to know WHY Jaqen lets her operate unchecked. He could certainly stop her.

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Could he?

Some people in GoT are obviously special. Like Dany. Like Bran. Like Jon. Like Jaqen, sure. Arya is not necessarily just a strong girl who has gone through a lot.

AyJay said:

I happened to rewatch that episode recently. (Yes, I was one of those people who celebrated all weekend before the series premiere rewatching Season 6).

I suppose it could be interpreted in different ways, but for me, after Arya disobeyed Jaqen's orders (multiple times), and declared her name was Arya Stark, she was pretty clearly dismissing herself from service; and she literally walks out of the temple. It just seems to me that to be a servant of the nameless god, you have to give up your personal identity and history. And Arya was declaring she's not giving that up. She's ready to go back to her previous life.

Your take on it could make sense (and it seems that's what the writers wanted): Jaqen had everything planned all along, helping Arya achieve her life purpose I guess through breaking her down, training her in combat/magic so she could destroy her enemies. That's just a little too cute for my tastes, though. May be a personal pet peeve storytelling-wise. I mean, it's based on the idea that Jaqen has a stake in Arya's revenge (and the god has a stake in it too), so it's an awfully long way around helping the poor girl, and sort of a manipulative plot device.

ETA: I still love Arya! (And Jaqen)

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Or it could be that being 'a faceless man' is a skill set not a god-given talent. She's learned the skill set, so she doesn't want or need the god's approval or assistance.

autumnleaf said:

Yes, I'm based in Galway, and I also write historical fiction. Loved the Morgan Llewellyn book about Grainne; that would be a hard act to follow.

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Excellent! Though I have to say, Galway wasn't my favorite place in Ireland. That was likely because I'd just spent two weeks in tiny villages like Ardara, Cushendall, Kilronan, etc., and Galway was too big city for me at that point. We got quickly through the city and moved on to Ballyvaughan.

However, my first novel has the main character landing in Galway on her trip from New York in 1847.

regdog said:

I'm in the Syrio is Jaqen camp. As Syrio he was unable to finish Arya's training. He knew she wanted a different life, to not be a "highborn, Ladywife" she wanted adventure, she wanted a challenge, but she needed to be able to defend herself. When the Lannister soldiers came for her, he knew she wold never be safe. As Jaqen, he was able to not only complete her sword training but teach her how to take another's face and kill by any means necessary. She could go anywhere, be anyone, get the revenge she wanted while keeping herself safe.

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This^. Otherwise, it seems a little too coincidental that Syrio vanishes and shortly after, Jaqen, a remarkably similar man, appears in her life. Once we have 'facelessness' explained, the different face isn't that big a factor. As to being 'special', why would first-rate fighters like Syrio and Jaquen bother with a little girl if there wasn't some underlying plan?

Syrio was getting paid to instruct Arya by Eddard, the Hand of the King. And he claims to have been "First Sword of Braavos," which seems like something that people in power would be able to verify with ease.

There's nothing odd about Eddard hiring Syrio and Syrio agreeing to give Arya lessons (there's no reason to suppose his duties ended there).

That said, sure Syrio could have been Jaqen, but only if Jaqen killed the real Syrio. But if Syrio reappears and reveals himself to be Jaqen, there's zero way to know if Jaqen killed him before or after he was training Arya.

robeiae said:

Could he?

Some people in GoT are obviously special. Like Dany. Like Bran. Like Jon. Like Jaqen, sure. Arya is not necessarily just a strong girl who has gone through a lot.

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He could stop her, yes. I believe that. The Faceless Men are not to be trifled with--especially one as seasoned as Jaqen. I think he is letting her wreak havoc on Westeros. The question is: did someone pay for this chaos, or, do the Faceless Men have some maneuverings behind the scenes of a more self-serving nature?

And Arya is special, definitely! In the books, she can warg, for example. In the T.V. series, she seems to just be very good at what she does. But she is still a girl and a year of training from Jaqen and others in the Faceless organization does not, imho, make her an expert. Not yet. She does have a lot going for her. Her age and size cause people to underestimate her frequently, for example.

AyJay said:

I happened to rewatch that episode recently. (Yes, I was one of those people who celebrated all weekend before the series premiere rewatching Season 6).

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I wanted to as well! I'm jealous!

I suppose it could be interpreted in different ways, but for me, after Arya disobeyed Jaqen's orders (multiple times), and declared her name was Arya Stark, she was pretty clearly dismissing herself from service; and she literally walks out of the temple. It just seems to me that to be a servant of the nameless god, you have to give up your personal identity and history. And Arya was declaring she's not giving that up. She's ready to go back to her previous life.

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How did Jaqen look? I need to find that scene. Was he smiling? Or upset? Do you recall what episode that was exactly? I will likely queue it up to see because I'm curious!

robeiae said:

Syrio was getting paid to instruct Arya by Eddard, the Hand of the King. And he claims to have been "First Sword of Braavos," which seems like something that people in power would be able to verify with ease.

There's nothing odd about Eddard hiring Syrio and Syrio agreeing to give Arya lessons (there's no reason to suppose his duties ended there).

That said, sure Syrio could have been Jaqen, but only if Jaqen killed the real Syrio. But if Syrio reappears and reveals himself to be Jaqen, there's zero way to know if Jaqen killed him before or after he was training Arya.

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Especially given Syrio's age, it's possible he was in poor health and decided to kill himself at the House of Black and White instead of dying from a painful or debilitating illness. We saw where the Faceless Men can also use the faces of those who came to them voluntarily.