Skeptical about Stephen King's advice

Libbie said:

I don't fully agree with this. If a new writer understands the critique process and knows how to use it to their advantage, they can quickly learn whether an experiment has worked or failed.

It is true, though, that most new writers have no idea how to use criticism as a tool, and many even resent or fight it until they grow into it.

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What she said.

We've all been there, though, so don't be too harsh on the newbies. I remember, clearly, the time when I resisted most criticism. Looking back now makes me realize what a jackass I was (and 15,000+ cut words to prove it).

maestrowork said:

A good student is one who takes what the teacher says, processes it, and makes it his own.

Then he thanks the teacher for making him think.

-- Ray Wong, February 11, 2010

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Great quote. Just read what King has to say, sift through it and keep what you think will help or inspire you with your writing. King has more experience in producing fiction than many of us here, so a few of his ideas or suggestions might not be too bad...

maestrowork said:

We've all been there, though, so don't be too harsh on the newbies. I remember, clearly, the time when I resisted most criticism. Looking back now makes me realize what I jackass I was (and 15,000+ cut words to prove it).

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Yes. I do think "if it works, it works" is true, but I agree the problem is if you're just starting out, you don't know what works and what doesn't and why.

I think the important thing is understanding and explaining why such advice exist, rather than simply repeating it as gospel or as if it's The Only Way.

I think the key here is that alot of new (and some not so new) writers are very resistant to critisism, and often to basic advice.

I find it alot, not just in writing, but in my professional fields as well, that there are alot of new entrants who think that because they have a grasp of the concept and a strong will to suceed that they obviously know better. I am yet to see one who is right.

Talent is a wonderful thing. But it needs cultivated.

I skipped most of the thread, this is to address the original post.

King used to be one of my heroes, and I used to try to imitate him when I was working to develop my own "voice."

Then I figured out I could do better when it came to writing mentors. His slip started showing for me in The Stand and by the time I forced myself to finish Christine, I was thoroughly off him.

What tipped things was noticing that each of his characters spoke exactly the same way (with much foul, angry language), from a 12 y.o. girl, to the 60 y.o. ex-Marine. Having learned the basics of good dialogue from the likes of Rod Serling, I stopped reading King and moved on.

That stated, I do respect his sales. He has been an inspiration to me in that regard.

But I don't go in for all his writing advice. His book would better serve writers by leaving out the bio, but that's his business, not mine. I skipped over the bio, focused on the writing advice and gleaned little to no practical help. I got more out of Elements of Style than King.

As a writer you pick through a LARGE number of how-to books and use what works for YOU, discard what does not work.

It's like cooking. If the recipe calls for shellfish and you're allergic, then don't use it. Forcing the issue won't make you happy.

My current favs are Holly Lisle's books on writing. I found her Create A Plot Clinic to be exactly right for me.

Yes, I DO have more than 20 books sold, but there is always something new to learn about this craft!

Holly Lisle's site is good, but I haven't heard good things about her books though.

There aren't many rules out there with no caveat, but this is one:

If you can replace a verb+adverb combo with a single verb, do it. If you can't, then don't.

This rule satisfies the ideals of brevity and clarity, so if you don't like brevity and clarity, ignore the rule.

Murdering your darlings is another rule you can follow without exception. If you find an element that doesn't contribute to your story, get rid of it.

kuwisdelu said:

I think the important thing is understanding and explaining why such advice exist, rather than simply repeating it as gospel or as if it's The Only Way.

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Gillhoughly said:

I got more out of Elements of Style than King.

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Love Elements of Style, precisely because it is simple and explanatory. I can come close to citing chapter and section number of the Chicago Manual, but my Strunk and White is the first thing I reach for if I have a question.

I guess I'm a little confused by all the "newbie" talk, though. I mean, are people talking about those new to writing or those new to writing novels? Because it seems like there's a mashup of those two concepts. The idea that those who haven't finished novels can't have informed opinions about what makes good writing is misinformed, at best.

Those of us new to novel writing are probably going to need a lot of advice concerning submitting, marketing, etc. - but word count isn't necessarily a reflection of skill if you're coming from a short-story or editorial background.

This thread does remind me of a something I experienced during my copy editing days, though. The author had written, "The [style name] style was covered with a layer of nouveau riche and money."

I queried, "Author: Styles can be covered with neither people nor money. Rephrase?" and I offered a suggestion.

"You're right," came the response, "but I like the way my version sounds better."

Head -> desk.

*shrug* I don't care a whatever; I don't pander to the same audience as King. I take any advice that helps me.

Gillhoughly said:

As a writer you pick through a LARGE number of how-to books and use what works for YOU, discard what does not work.

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This is a common theme in the responses to this thread, and I'd like to add:

Don't discard something without trying it first!

Picking and choosing what works for you might make you feel better about being you, but it's also not really conducive to finding success either. If you are not having success at what you are trying to do, then you need to CHANGE and ADAPT your behavior in certain ways to try something new to see if it works.

James81 said:

There is irony to this statement. *looks at your sig*

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I've finished 3 books. (Only list the last one in the sig because the other two were rubbish and I'll never pull them from the trunk)

Also, I have outlines that pretty much tell me how long my book is going to be. I said 75,000 for my last one, and the first draft put it at 73,000. My edits after trimming and inserting flashbacks is 75,500.



ETA: I am quite the self deprecator

lucidzfl said:

The thing that kills me is how many new authors who have never finished even one MS suddenly think that they have any right to disobey the rules.

Sure, "what works works" (God I am sick of hearing that) but what on GODS earth makes someone who's never finished a book think they have any clue what works?

I'll be honest, my first book, I wrote to the letter with almost no rulebreaking. The reason? To teach myself what works.

You have to CRAWL before you can WALK, but I constantly see people with "WIP1 4000 of 75000" in their sigs pretending they can run.

Edit: Oh god damnit so much.

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QFT

Sleepyhead said:

I guess I'm a little confused by all the "newbie" talk, though. I mean, are people talking about those new to writing or those new to writing novels? Because it seems like there's a mashup of those two concepts. The idea that those who haven't finished novels can't have informed opinions about what makes good writing is misinformed, at best.

Those of us new to novel writing are probably going to need a lot of advice concerning submitting, marketing, etc. - but word count isn't necessarily a reflection of skill if you're coming from a short-story or editorial background.

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As someone who has done both short story writing and novel writing, I assure you that there are more differences than the word count. Perhaps a non-novelist can have informed opinions on something but on plotting a novel--if you haven't done it, not really.

Someone new to novel writing needs to learn a heck of a lot more than how to submit and if you're not willing to understand that novels are very different than editing or short stories, you have a rough road ahead.

Matera the Mad said:

*shrug* I don't care a whatever; I don't pander to the same audience as King. I take any advice that helps me.

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Pander is an interesting choice of word.

Sleepyhead said:

Those of us new to novel writing are probably going to need a lot of advice concerning submitting, marketing, etc. - but word count isn't necessarily a reflection of skill if you're coming from a short-story or editorial background.

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An award-nominated short story author I used to know was writing his first-ever novel after more than 20 years of writing shorts. This is what he had to say about the two literary forms:

"Comparing short stories to novels is like comparing an elephant to a mouse. Sure, they're both mammals, but you can't shrink an elephant down and stick its trunk on its butt and call it a mouse. Likewise, you can't inflate a mouse and stick its tail on its nose and call it an elephant. The way the bones are structured, put together, the way the animal moves--it's all basically different as much as it's the same. And if you don't pay attention to those differences, your new beastie's going to die horribly."

Whereas marketing is pretty straightforward: who's able to publish/represent your work and submit it in a very slightly different format.

If you're starting to write novels after writing shorts, pay attention to how the bones are different, how things go together uniquely more than how to put pages into an envelope and send it off. The submission end of things is the EASY part.

seun said:

Pander is an interesting choice of word.

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I decided not to respond to it, but... yeah.

Albannach said:

As someone who has done both short story writing and novel writing, I assure you that there are more differences than the word count. Perhaps a non-novelist can have informed opinions on something but on plotting a novel--if you haven't done it, not really.

Someone new to novel writing needs to learn a heck of a lot more than how to submit and if you're not willing to understand that novels are very different than editing or short stories, you have a rough road ahead.

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I wasn't meaning to imply that those were the only differences. The point I was trying to make is that tight writing is tight writing. Of course there are differences. But is it inappropriate for someone with a short story background to offer opinions on dialogue tagging? Um, no.

I threw those examples out because those were things repeatedly being referred to conceptually (putting the work in [as in word count] and assuming one can disregard what others know to be agent preferences).

I would no more make the assumption that writing a novel was the same as writing short stories than I would claim that writing poetry was the same as writing short stories. But the fact is, a wordsmith is a wordsmith, and there are certain skills that will have been honed by good writers across all styles. The kind of elitism that implies, "If you haven't written in my style and/or in my genre, then you haven't paid your dues and have nothing to bring to the discussion" is counterproductive for everyone.

maestrowork said:

"She sighed happily" or "she sighed wearily" demonstrates to us the writer is not confident. Why?

- the writer doesn't trust the context of the scene, subtexts, atmosphere, body language, word choices to convey that emotion; or to use something else instead of "sigh"

- the writer is lazy or unsure, trying to summarize everything with a single adverb. It may be quick, but it's also unimaginative and dull. Instead, why not expand on it, using dialogue, internal thoughts, body languages, etc. to convey to us whether the character is happy or weary.


See, the problem isn't so much the adverb itself, but the reasons and implications behind using it. So, when you listen to advice like this, do not take it on face value only. But think on it and dig deeper to understand the REASONS behind such an advice.

See if you can decipher the emotion of the following without the adverbs:

She read the letter, and her lips curled into a half-smile. She sighed.

She read the letter. Her shoulders slumped as she dropped the letter on the floor. She sighed.

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I agree. I'm not an experienced prose writer (just started a novel) but I have a lot of years of play and screenwriting behind me and instinctively a phrase such as "she sighed wearily" sounds horrible to me. The sentences in bold, even though they are simple examples, sound so much better. Actually adverbs are also frowned upon in screenwriting along with passive voice etc so there is some cross over here.

Fallen said:

Yeah, but let's not forget it's 'show and tell', not 'show, don't tell.' Manner adverbs (happily) have their place in fiction: they aid the expansion and contraction of everything that goes into a piece of work. I don't think it's learning where to use them, it's learning how to use them that's the problem.

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You're better off learning how to avoid using them. Whatever implies "happily" should be clear in dialog, or, if expressed nonverbally, the body language should be described.

You should do a CTRL+F for "ly" on your entire manuscript, and look at every single one. See if you can replace the adverb with a stronger verb, or with description of some kind. See if it weakens the sentence to simply remove the adverb. In most cases, you'll get rid of it. If you decide you like a few, leave them, but you should not have a lot of them. They choke the work.

Stephen King, king of the never-ending-internal-monologue is one to talk about tight writing, lol. He needs to cut another 10% (or more) out of most of his later books. I like King's work, but I always end up skimming over his rambling to find the story. He has a very pretty way of putting words together and good stories, though, so I keep reading him.

How useful Stephen King's advice is depends on how similar your style is to his. My style is very different, so I ignored a lot of it.

I'm pretty sure On Writing doesn't say you'll find an agent quickly and easily if you have talent. At least, considering how long Stephen King worked to get published, that would be a pretty hypocritical thing for him to say. Wasn't it something more like 'if you're talented keep trying, because it will happen eventually'? Now I have to go look it up.

lucidzfl said:

I've finished 3 books. (Only list the last one in the sig because the other two were rubbish and I'll never pull them from the trunk)

Also, I have outlines that pretty much tell me how long my book is going to be. I said 75,000 for my last one, and the first draft put it at 73,000. My edits after trimming and inserting flashbacks is 75,500.



ETA: I am quite the self deprecator

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All true, but from what I recall of other posts you've made, you haven't even had your work beta-read, much less sold anything. So do you not see the irony in your complaining about what untested writers say about what works and doesn't when you yourself are untested? Not to mention all the other harsh advice you dish out? I'm jus' sayin'.

OK, now I have actually read the thread (my first response was just to the OP).

shaldna said:

I agree with the adverbs. It can be really overdone. Look at Twilight.

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*watches Twilight sell millions of copies and make its writer rich*
Um, your point?

lucidzfl said:

The thing that kills me is how many new authors who have never finished even one MS suddenly think that they have any right to disobey the rules.

Sure, "what works works" (God I am sick of hearing that) but what on GODS earth makes someone who's never finished a book think they have any clue what works?

I'll be honest, my first book, I wrote to the letter with almost no rulebreaking. The reason? To teach myself what works.

You have to CRAWL before you can WALK, but I constantly see people with "WIP1 4000 of 75000" in their sigs pretending they can run.

Edit: Oh god damnit so much.

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Well, I'm glad I didn't know or follow the rules when I started. It allowed me to find my own voice unencumbered by worries of doing something 'wrong'. I later learned the rules, implemented the ones that worked, and discarded the ones that didn't work for me.

DeleyanLee said:

One agent I heard at a panel said she only reads submissions as she's sitting in bed before sleeping. Her one test is to find something that makes her stay up past her bedtime and wanting more. If you can do that, she asks for a full or will offer representation.

I think this is a much taller order.

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I think that's awesome, actually. It's just how my betas read my books. I would never query something that hadn't passed the 'damn you, I stayed up all night to finish that!' test.

lucidzfl said:

Also, I think that "if it works, it works" is a fucking cop out BULLSHIT answer from some forumites that they apparently think makes them look wise.

Because its horrible fucking advice.

If the person knew it worked, they wouldn't have asked the god damned question on the forum in the first place.

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This is a good point. I use a very unusual and often-hated POV structure in some of my books. But I've never posted on AW asking 'do you think I should switch POVs mid-scene?' because I don't give a damn what you or anyone else thinks. The books I use this POV structure in would lose SO MUCH in a standard 3rd limited. I rewrote a couple of the scenes that switched a lot into strict 3rd limited and the result was so toxic I deleted them immediately, emptied the trash, and tried to block the results of the experiment out of my mind. It would totally ruin those books to do it any other way. *shudder*

I am guilty of posting 'if it works, do it' a lot, but that's mostly for the benefit of lurkers, who may think that something is a Hard & Fast Rule, rather than a guideline that you should have a good reason for ignoring. Then again, if you're dumb enough to ruin your story because a bunch of people on a writing forum say to do it differently, you deserve to fail, so maybe I should stop being so nice.

Chasing the Horizon said:

I use a very unusual and often-hated POV structure in some of my books.

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You must be talking about first-present I get the same hate--until they actually read the story. Just because most people are bad at it doesn't necessarily mean anything, though I'd caution the true beginner to avoid it at first.

Many creative writing teachers would advocate the opposite approach: begin in first and work out to third-omni.

Not to be the contrarian, but if someone sighs happily, please just tell me they sighed happily. Don't spend 50+ words describing what can be said in three. If you show every single thing, your writing gets very long very fast...and very boring.

That said, the secret is to not overdo it. (as with everything!)


This is Dean Koontz, by the way: