The Newer Never-Ending PublishAmerica / America Star Books Thread

LexiCan

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Not all the stores/libraries will be huge places. Chances are that some will be local, where staff could be expected to remember receiving packages. And it's very likely that the authors who choose to do this will be in contact* with those places pretty much continuously to keep track of their books. Not sending the books would be a really dumb chance for PA to take.

I was not thinking they would hold back on the libraries, employers etc.
But Walmart...that's a specific promotion and it would be unlikely that authors could get tracking on shipments. Not say that PA would actually do this, but ya never know. Again, just a thought.
 

ResearchGuy

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. . . Not sending the books would be a really dumb chance for PA to take.. . . .
Dumber than inserting errors? Creating crapulous (and repetitive) covers? Persistently insulting the authors? Not filling orders placed directly with PA by would-be customers? Publishing pretty much anything, no matter how lacking in merit?

IMHO, they will, when called on it, lie, evade, and blame the victim. Same as usual.

--Ken
 

LostInWonderland

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IMHO, they will, when called on it, lie, evade, and blame the victim. Same as usual.

I agree.

I don't think PA would be risking much by not sending the donated books (except integrity, which they obviously don't care about anyway). I guess an author could technically sue, but it doesn't seem very likely that they would.

Also, and this might sound really underhanded even for them, but it wouldn't be that difficult to doctor up a proof of shipment either. They can claim not to have a tracking number, but show some phony receipt. Not that they would go to the trouble when they can just lie, but it's not out of the realm of possibility either.
 

Terie

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I don't think PA would be risking much by not sending the donated books (except integrity, which they obviously don't care about anyway). I guess an author could technically sue, but it doesn't seem very likely that they would.

Since you can't prove a negative, I don't see how anyone could sue. Besides, the author wouldn't technically have lost anything (that is, suffered damages), so again, they couldn't sue. Which, of course, is very possibly exactly what PA is counting on.
 

LostInWonderland

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Since you can't prove a negative, I don't see how anyone could sue. Besides, the author wouldn't technically have lost anything (that is, suffered damages), so again, they couldn't sue. Which, of course, is very possibly exactly what PA is counting on.

Let me go ahead and say I'm not a lawyer, and my legal knowledge is limited. That said, wouldn't it be a form of fraud on PA's part? What if an author who had no intention of buying their books, decided to do so based on this deal with the donation? They are paying for, what they think, is double the amount of books. Also, in the bookstore deal PA strongly insinuates that the donated books will be stocked on bookstore shelves, which of course is a lie. I notice, Terie, you are in the UK, so maybe laws are different here in the US? It seems like people here have sued over a lot less. But like I said, I'm no lawyer, so I don't know all the legal ins and outs.
 

Terie

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Let me go ahead and say I'm not a lawyer, and my legal knowledge is limited. That said, wouldn't it be a form of fraud on PA's part? What if an author who had no intention of buying their books, decided to do so based on this deal with the donation? They are paying for, what they think, is double the amount of books. Also, in the bookstore deal PA strongly insinuates that the donated books will be stocked on bookstore shelves, which of course is a lie. I notice, Terie, you are in the UK, so maybe laws are different here in the US? It seems like people here have sued over a lot less. But like I said, I'm no lawyer, so I don't know all the legal ins and outs.

It's a simple rhetorical fact (and possibly a legal one, too, I don't know). You'd have to have PROOF that PA didn't do something, and you can't prove a negative. Think about it practically...how could you prove PA did not send something? I mean 'prove' in the legal sense. What evidence could you provide a lawyer? What lawyer would take such a flimsy case? What is there to 'win'?

The author isn't paying for the books; PA is claiming they'll send them for free. Therefore, the author hasn't suffered any real damages ('real', again, in the legal sense...money). PA would simply say (and probably generate some kind of paperwork to back it up) that they sent the books, and it's not their fault the books never arrived.

I'm not saying that this isn't open to 'fraud', simply that the scope of it is small and the prove-ability of it practically nil. Let's say, for example, that you personally ordered 50 books so that 50 could be sent to your local B&N. B&N says they didn't get them; PA says they sent them. Would you actually now go spend hundreds of dollars consulting a lawyer about suing PA when you don't even have the ability to prove that PA didn't send them? After all, that local B&N might well have just tossed them in the bin and be lying. See what I mean?

When all is said and done, PA does much WORSE things than this every day, and so far, no one's been able to make anything stick.
 

LostInWonderland

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It's a simple rhetorical fact (and possibly a legal one, too, I don't know). You'd have to have PROOF that PA didn't do something, and you can't prove a negative. Think about it practically...how could you prove PA did not send something? I mean 'prove' in the legal sense. What evidence could you provide a lawyer? What lawyer would take such a flimsy case? What is there to 'win'?

Going back to my original post, I said that technically an author could sue, but it was very unlikely that they would. I would think that if an author asked for proof of shipment and PA wouldn't or couldn't provide it, there is the possibility, however slim, that an author could sue. If they were willing to pay a lawyer, they'd find one to take the case here in the US. Lawyers aren't hard to come by even for the flimsiest of cases/lawsuits. But I already said it would be fairly easy to doctor a shipping receipt, so it 's probably moot anyway.

The whole point of my original post was to address the person who said there would be a risk involved if PA didn't send the books and I was just trying to point out that the risk was very small, except for, again, the slim possibility an author might attempt to sue. I wasn't trying to start an argument here, especially since we're pretty much saying the same thing ;)

When all is said and done, PA does much WORSE things than this every day, and so far, no one's been able to make anything stick.
Has someone attempted to sue PA before?
 

Terie

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It would be considered a false inducement if PA failed to send the "donated books".

No question. But the burden of proof would be on the author, and it would be extremely hard to prove...being as how proving a negative isn't possible.

Let me clarify that I think this is exactly PA's intent -- to give away as few copies as they can get away with. Maybe they'll send them when the recipient is a library, workplace, indie bookshop, and so on; but I wouldn't be surprised one little bit if they didn't even bother to send them to the places they know won't accept them. So I do agree that it's likely a false inducement.

I'm just saying that it would be impossible for an author to PROVE that PA didn't actually send the copies. Just as an author can't PROVE that PA didn't actually get the eight zillion e-mails the author sent that PA says were never received. :)
 

LexiCan

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I'm just saying that it would be impossible for an author to PROVE that PA didn't actually send the copies. Just as an author can't PROVE that PA didn't actually get the eight zillion e-mails the author sent that PA says were never received. :)

This was exactly my rational when I first had the thought. Hmmm, they know Wal*Mart won't accept the shipment or at the very least pitch the box in the trash. Wal*Mart would have no record of the shipment even if it did arrive. So, in PA rational, why go to the trouble of printing, packing and shipping the donated books...no one will ever know.
 

pink lily

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This was exactly my rational when I first had the thought. Hmmm, they know Wal*Mart won't accept the shipment or at the very least pitch the box in the trash. Wal*Mart would have no record of the shipment even if it did arrive. So, in PA rational, why go to the trouble of printing, packing and shipping the donated books...no one will ever know.
Regarding "donated" books: I know of a librarian who received an unsolicited shipment of shrink-wrapped hardcover books by L. Ron Hubbard, "donated" to the library without any warning. The librarian re-donated those books to an anonymous person, and the books ended up used as props by people who were "protesting" Scientology.

The librarian would have otherwise thrown the "donated" books in the trash, according to policy. I think bookstores would do the same.
 

JulieB

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This was exactly my rational when I first had the thought. Hmmm, they know Wal*Mart won't accept the shipment or at the very least pitch the box in the trash. Wal*Mart would have no record of the shipment even if it did arrive. So, in PA rational, why go to the trouble of printing, packing and shipping the donated books...no one will ever know.

I can't help but wonder if one of the authors works (or has a friend that works) at Wal*Mart, that it wouldn't be so difficult to check up on delivery.
 

pink lily

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I can't help but wonder if one of the authors works (or has a friend that works) at Wal*Mart, that it wouldn't be so difficult to check up on delivery.
I've never worked in a "big box" store, but I've worked in retail stores in the mall. We were not allowed to accept packages without a "bill of lading" or transfer slip or some sort of documentation. I wonder if Wal Mart and other stores have similar policies.
 

LexiCan

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Yep, they do. No packages accepted that are not on the list.
 

ChristineR

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The most likely way you would prove this in a court of law would be by getting an employee to testify under oath. I doubt if Miranda "Lies to the Police" Prather is taking all the donation orders herself, and I'm sure she's not the one responsible for running the POD machine and putting two piles of books into boxes labeled respectively "Published Author" and "Local Wal-mart."

It would go something like this.

Alice: Miranda told me only to print off the author copies. She told be Bob would do the Wal-mart copies.

Bob: Miranda told me only to print off the author copies. She told be Alice would do the Wal-mart copies.

Miranda: I did the Wal-mart copies myself. After Bob and Alice went home. And I managed to do it without the machine logs saying I had done it. And without our postal meter showing any shipments to that zipcode. And without using up any boxes.
 

DaveKuzminski

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PA is big enough that they're certain to take advantage of every opportunity to lower their tax obligations by claiming every expense possible. They would track all their expenses in their accounting and they'd have receipts or other records to show those expenses. Otherwise the friendly IRS would disallow those claims. If they failed to send the donated books, then there would be no receipt unless that was falsified. Either way, that would create a trail that would either lead to the person at the site receiving the donated books or to nowhere if the receipt was falsified. Out of the three possibilities, two are bad for PA.

However, if a PA author is smart, they'll have the donated books sent to them so the books won't be thrown out by the unsuspecting retailer but then that makes this offer no better than the two for one sales that PA was already doing. PA's merely throwing out a carrot that's no better than their previous claims by making it look like PA is willing to try to place books in retail stores.

By the way, many retailers have another way of dealing with unordered and unwanted merchandise. They refuse delivery and have the merchandise returned at the sender's expense. So even if PA does ship the donated books, many of those will end up back at PA's doorstep and then go into the trash. Net effect? PA pays twice for shipping along with the cost of the paper, ink, binding, and labor to produce the books. Then the books go into the trash since PA lived up to its promise to donate the books.

Also, unless the promise stated specifically that the book shipped would be that author's, it might even be some other books sent in its place that PA needed to dispose of.
 

ResearchGuy

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. . .
It would go something like this.. . .
IMHO, it would go something like this: "Read your contract. If you have a complaint, file for arbitration in Maryland."

It is a business-to-business thing (however deceptively so). Any complaints will go off into la-la land. IMHO.

--Ken
 

Cyia

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It might be interesting if there were 5-10 authors in the same area (friends who went with PA on friend recommendations) and all decided to have their books donated to their local Wal-Mart at the same time (so as to see their books side-by-side).

One box, the store would either return, assuming it was a shipping mistake, or toss if the publisher wouldn't answer their phone calls, but multiple boxes at one time could be considered a nuisance big enough to either make the local news or get a "tone letter" from Wal-Mart to PA.

Anyone with legal knowledge know the definitions of mail fraud? No money's changing hands, so it probably doesn't qualify, but I'm curious.
 

Snowstorm

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I was thinking along the same lines, Cyia, as I lurk reading this thread. If at few people in the same area could have their books donated to the same place, and noitify the recipient (local WalMart, library, etc.), who hopefully might be sympathetic to what the authors are doing, and all wait to see what happens.

If the worker at WalMart or the library would be so kind as to notify the authors if the boxes arrived, it might be interesting to verify the boxes were shipped. If none of the boxes arrived, possibly too coincidental, and they might be able to pursue this issue.
 

ResearchGuy

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. . . If the worker at WalMart or the library would be so kind as to notify the authors if the boxes arrived, it might be interesting to verify the boxes were shipped. . . .
Alas, all that would be verified is that PA has carried out its part of absurd and futile scheme.

--Ken
 

Snowstorm

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True, ResearchGuy, but at least the authors (and folks on this thread) would know that at least that had been carried out.
 

CatSlave

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You all are forgetting that the authors have to BUY a number of books before the same number of books will supposedly be shipped for free to somewhere.
Once PA has YOUR money in hand, they can afford the small expense of printing and shipping ten or 20 books.
It would cost them what -- a couple of bucks each at the most.

The point is now YOUR money is in THEIR pocket. They win.
 
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LexiCan

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Good point, Cat