NASA - Government Regulation Caused Global Warming

Don

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Agorism FTW!
Jerry Pournelle and Larry Niven postulated an ice-age scenario in the SF tour de farce Fallen Angels.

It's been released electronically by Baen Books. It's available for online reading here, or in your choice of downloads here.
 

dmytryp

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It's not trailing temperature now, so it looks like we are in for massive and catastrophic (see post on catastrophe theory) shifts in all the oscillations that drive the climate.
That is your opinion, and you are welcome to it.
Others think otherwise. Some scientists believe we are up for about thirty years of cooling. I guess we'll see.
 

Higgins

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That is your opinion, and you are welcome to it.
Others think otherwise. Some scientists believe we are up for about thirty years of cooling. I guess we'll see.

Thirty years of cooling on the basis of an unknown mechanism that:

1) triggered CO2 release (as in all of the phanerozoic, CO2 and temp are coupled)
2) causing a run-away feedback situation (which in all of the phanerozoic means increasing temperatures in the increasing CO2 regime)

seems unlikely to me. You can only expect 30 years of cooling if:

1) you have an unknown mechanism that triggers run-away increases in CO2
2) and then cools things off in another unknown way

seems very unlikely.
 

dmytryp

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Thirty years of cooling on the basis of an unknown mechanism that:

1) triggered CO2 release (as in all of the phanerozoic, CO2 and temp are coupled)
2) causing a run-away feedback situation (which in all of the phanerozoic means increasing temperatures in the increasing CO2 regime)

seems unlikely to me. You can only expect 30 years of cooling if:

1) you have an unknown mechanism that triggers run-away increases in CO2
2) and then cools things off in another unknown way

seems very unlikely.
Wha?
1. Who said the release mechanism for CO2 is unknown?
2. We've discussed the mechanism for cooling before (Svensmark's & Shaviv's work).
3. Your catastrophic predictions are based on several assumptions that might be correct or they might not (I think not):
a. The total feedbacks in the sustem are positive. This is not necessary true.
b. You assume that CO2 is the primary driver of temperature and not, say the sun activity (which we discussed).
4. You ignore in the past that the Earth did regulate itself (with the exception of ice-ages, for which you assume a certain mechanism, which again may or may not be true).
 

Higgins

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Wha?
1. Who said the release mechanism for CO2 is unknown?
2. We've discussed the mechanism for cooling before (Svensmark's & Shaviv's work).
3. Your catastrophic predictions are based on several assumptions that might be correct or they might not (I think not):
a. The total feedbacks in the sustem are positive. This is not necessary true.
b. You assume that CO2 is the primary driver of temperature and not, say the sun activity (which we discussed).
4. You ignore in the past that the Earth did regulate itself (with the exception of ice-ages, for which you assume a certain mechanism, which again may or may not be true).

The self-regulation is the total range of climate oscillations. We know that these could be catastrophic from ice core data. It doesn't seem like good policy to see a parameter known to play a crucial role in climate (CO2) and then to ignore the likelihood that if you let it run away you are going to cause some of this catastrophic self-regulation to occur.
 

Higgins

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Again, you are assuming CO2 is a signifficant driver of temperature. That is not a given. And what exactly do you mean by "run-away" with regards to CO2 levels?

If usually CO2 levels follows temp change, then what is happening now is a regime in which something else is driving both at the exact same time. So either increased CO2 is doing what a simple interpretation suggests (ie more CO2 is causing the temp to go up) or some never-before seen force is driving up both temperature and CO2 at the same time. Since CO2 alone will cause some rise, an unknown force that forces both temperature and CO2 up at the exact same time is a never-before-seen run-away event of an unknown kind.
 

dmytryp

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If usually CO2 levels follows temp change, then what is happening now is a regime in which something else is driving both at the exact same time. So either increased CO2 is doing what a simple interpretation suggests (ie more CO2 is causing the temp to go up) or some never-before seen force is driving up both temperature and CO2 at the same time. Since CO2 alone will cause some rise, an unknown force that forces both temperature and CO2 up at the exact same time is a never-before-seen run-away event of an unknown kind.
No, you are conflating things.

In the past the CO2 trailed temperature. That means that something triggered a temperature change, which in turn triggered CO2 change based on the feedback with the oceans (CO2 emissions at this point probably added to the temperature increase through the feedback, but that doesn't change the fact that temperature drove CO2).

Today you have CO2 rising and temperatures rising (though that is a matter of debate for the last decade). Something drives the temperature (it may be CO2 or it may not be). CO2 has two sources today -- one is natural, through the same mechanism as in the past, another one is antropogenic. This within itself can't say anything about the relationship between CO2 and temperature.

I really don't want to rehash old arguments, but they all come down to the question what drove the Temperature spike, and what sensitivity the climate has to the increases in the CO2. If IPCC is right, the increases of temperature will cntinue and will be between 1.5-5 deg over this century. If the sceptics are right, either the temperature will go down, or it will continue to increase but more modestly.
 

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No, you are conflating things.

In the past the CO2 trailed temperature. That means that something triggered a temperature change, which in turn triggered CO2 change based on the feedback with the oceans (CO2 emissions at this point probably added to the temperature increase through the feedback, but that doesn't change the fact that temperature drove CO2).

Today you have CO2 rising and temperatures rising (though that is a matter of debate for the last decade). Something drives the temperature (it may be CO2 or it may not be). CO2 has two sources today -- one is natural, through the same mechanism as in the past, another one is antropogenic. This within itself can't say anything about the relationship between CO2 and temperature.

I really don't want to rehash old arguments, but they all come down to the question what drove the Temperature spike, and what sensitivity the climate has to the increases in the CO2. If IPCC is right, the increases of temperature will cntinue and will be between 1.5-5 deg over this century. If the sceptics are right, either the temperature will go down, or it will continue to increase but more modestly.

I'm not conflating. The confusion is inherent in your version of what causes what.

Just think about this. If in the past, CO2 followed temperature and in the present CO2 and temperature are rising at the same time, then CO2 is going to keep going up due to some unknown run-away mechanism if the mechanisms of the past still are in operation.

You can't form a clear (or non-run-away) causal mechanism if both the anomoly (CO2 right with temp) is normal and that the normal mechanisms of the past are not operating (yet).

It seems to me that either the CO2 is causing the temperature to rise (and its hard to see how things that are occuring in exactly coupled curves are not interacting) or an unknown mechanism is about to trigger yet another CO2 rise, that is if the supposed past relation reflects an actual mechanism.
 

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What are you talking about. There is no misterious run-away mechanism. You have CO2 from two sources -- from human activity and from natural sources.
Its relationship with Temperature is not clearly defined. If you are correct and CO2 drives the temperature, than your scenario is plausible (maybe, if we leave other self-restraining mechanisms of the climate aside). If you are wrong, and in the past Temoerature drove the CO2 (this is certainly a very good possibility, almistcertainty) and te reversed effect (of CO2 driving temperature) is small, then your scenario is improbable, as you'd have only marginal effect for doubling of CO2, and as emissions will gradually go down, it will take more and more time to double the amounts of CO2 (and eventually the emissions will be so low as to allow nature to absorb the excess of CO2)
 

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What are you talking about. There is no misterious run-away mechanism. You have CO2 from two sources -- from human activity and from natural sources.
Its relationship with Temperature is not clearly defined. If you are correct and CO2 drives the temperature, than your scenario is plausible (maybe, if we leave other self-restraining mechanisms of the climate aside). If you are wrong, and in the past Temoerature drove the CO2 (this is certainly a very good possibility, almistcertainty) and te reversed effect (of CO2 driving temperature) is small, then your scenario is improbable, as you'd have only marginal effect for doubling of CO2, and as emissions will gradually go down, it will take more and more time to double the amounts of CO2 (and eventually the emissions will be so low as to allow nature to absorb the excess of CO2)

There are some problems in your formulation I think:

1) What causes temperature increases? In your view this is not mysterious, it's just not known
2) Why would the unknown process just happen to increase temperature in lock-step with CO2? ie Right now and never before?
3) How have CO2 and the unknown mechanism worked in the past (and yet they are not quite just yet working in the present)?
4) Why would the unknown mechanism be able to "know" just how much CO2 the other unknown mechanisms would need to come back to the current state of climate?
5) And if 4 isn't working then why wouldn't the increase in CO2 from whatever cause, destabilize the climate in potentially catastrophic ways?
6) In which case the current increase in CO2 is all the more potentially catastrophic and so needs to be considered in some respects a run-away parameter.
 

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There are some problems in your formulation I think:

1) What causes temperature increases? In your view this is not mysterious, it's just not known
2) Why would the unknown process just happen to increase temperature in lock-step with CO2? ie Right now and never before?
3) How have CO2 and the unknown mechanism worked in the past (and yet they are not quite just yet working in the present)?
4) Why would the unknown mechanism be able to "know" just how much CO2 the other unknown mechanisms would need to come back to the current state of climate?
5) And if 4 isn't working then why wouldn't the increase in CO2 from whatever cause, destabilize the climate in potentially catastrophic ways?
6) In which case the current increase in CO2 is all the more potentially catastrophic and so needs to be considered in some respects a run-away parameter.

I'll answer your points one by one, though we are returning to the same thing, yet again. I also had some trouble with understanding some of your points, so don't take it the wrong way if my point doesn't answer yours.

1. No. I believe Svensmark at al are correct. The activity of the sun through amplification mechanisms drive the temperature.
2. It doesn't. It drives the temperature. The temperature in turn (with some feedbacks) drives CO2 (at least this is what happened in the past. Today in addition to this process, human activity gives additional rise to CO2 levels)
3. I am not clear what you meant here. It worked in the past exactly as it does today, with the exception that you have additional CO2, not driven by the temperature.
4. I don't understand what you mean here. If you mean "how did the system reverse course in the past and why it haven't done so now?" then the answer is simple. Once the driver diminished (solar activity), temperature started to drop back and the Oceans absorbed the excess CO2. As for now, it did work in the 60th and the 70th, when there were brief downturns in solar activity. The sun also entered a low activity phase (as you posted in another thread) several years ago. As a result, there is evidence that the warming stopped, the heat content of the oceans is diminishing etc. Pointing to a cooling phase. It actually works fine, it seems. Now, the excess CO2 won't be totally absorbed this time, as there is external driver for it (us). So, if this theory is correct, than the CO2 will continue to increase, but temperature will either drop, or will rise much slower (Shaviv and co don't claim their mechanism totally discounts greenhouse gases).
5. Why would it? If it doesn't drive the temperature, it will increase, but so what? The concentration is still waaay too low to be a problem within itself (though there might be some plants that are more sensitive to CO2, I don't know). So, in what way will it cause the catastrophic scenario you predict. Not to mention that humanity is already moving towards limiting emissions.
6. Huh?

By the way, Svensmark and Shaviv didn't need to invent the cosmic rays-cloudcover-temperature link. The influence of cosmic rays on cloud formation was proposed in the 20th (if I am not mistaken). Data appeared to suggest that there is strong influence and correlations between cloud cover and temperature (IPCC just suggests inverse causality to what Svensmark and Shaviv suggest. They think that the feedback is from increase of temperature to cause the clouds to dissipate, allow more sunlight, heat even more etc. ) So, the people just put several studies together and formed a theory. Then they tested it (partially successfully) and researched its implications on the overall data interpretation. Remeber, Shaviv thought the consensus theory was correct (just as I did) untill he saw enough data, in his view, to challenge this assumption.
 

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I'll answer your points one by one, though we are returning to the same thing, yet again. I also had some trouble with understanding some of your points, so don't take it the wrong way if my point doesn't answer yours.

1. No. I believe Svensmark at al are correct. The activity of the sun through amplification mechanisms drive the temperature.
2. It doesn't. It drives the temperature. The temperature in turn (with some feedbacks) drives CO2 (at least this is what happened in the past. Today in addition to this process, human activity gives additional rise to CO2 levels)
3. I am not clear what you meant here. It worked in the past exactly as it does today, with the exception that you have additional CO2, not driven by the temperature.
4. I don't understand what you mean here. If you mean "how did the system reverse course in the past and why it haven't done so now?" then the answer is simple. Once the driver diminished (solar activity), temperature started to drop back and the Oceans absorbed the excess CO2. As for now, it did work in the 60th and the 70th, when there were brief downturns in solar activity. The sun also entered a low activity phase (as you posted in another thread) several years ago. As a result, there is evidence that the warming stopped, the heat content of the oceans is diminishing etc. Pointing to a cooling phase. It actually works fine, it seems. Now, the excess CO2 won't be totally absorbed this time, as there is external driver for it (us). So, if this theory is correct, than the CO2 will continue to increase, but temperature will either drop, or will rise much slower (Shaviv and co don't claim their mechanism totally discounts greenhouse gases).
5. Why would it? If it doesn't drive the temperature, it will increase, but so what? The concentration is still waaay too low to be a problem within itself (though there might be some plants that are more sensitive to CO2, I don't know). So, in what way will it cause the catastrophic scenario you predict. Not to mention that humanity is already moving towards limiting emissions.
6. Huh?

By the way, Svensmark and Shaviv didn't need to invent the cosmic rays-cloudcover-temperature link. The influence of cosmic rays on cloud formation was proposed in the 20th (if I am not mistaken). Data appeared to suggest that there is strong influence and correlations between cloud cover and temperature (IPCC just suggests inverse causality to what Svensmark and Shaviv suggest. They think that the feedback is from increase of temperature to cause the clouds to dissipate, allow more sunlight, heat even more etc. ) So, the people just put several studies together and formed a theory. Then they tested it (partially successfully) and researched its implications on the overall data interpretation. Remeber, Shaviv thought the consensus theory was correct (just as I did) untill he saw enough data, in his view, to challenge this assumption.

The general consensus as summarized in this rather nice website (http://www.aip.org/history/climate/index.html)
is that forcing by greenhouse gases will swamp solar fluctuations. I'm not making this stuff up. Moreover it is pretty clear from the fossil record that the earth was hot and sea levels were high for the whole phanerozoic up until the Miocene, when CO2 began dropping. Now it is strange that the sun would cool off for the Miocene until now and then suddenly heat up just as CO2 started climbing. I just don't see the how the sun just happens to cool off for 30 million years and then suddenly warm up just in time for industrialization. That's extremely unlikely.
 

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The general consensus as summarized in this rather nice website (http://www.aip.org/history/climate/index.html)
is that forcing by greenhouse gases will swamp solar fluctuations. I'm not making this stuff up. Moreover it is pretty clear from the fossil record that the earth was hot and sea levels were high for the whole phanerozoic up until the Miocene, when CO2 began dropping. Now it is strange that the sun would cool off for the Miocene until now and then suddenly heat up just as CO2 started climbing.
Oh, for the love of G-d. This is my last post on the subject, since we are treading water.
"General consensus" means exactly squat. Scientific history is full of examples of people challenging the "consensus" and being right. Hell, even if 100% of the people believe something is true, it doesn't make it true. As I said, it all ends up with a theory that assumes CO2 is the primary driver of temperature. And again, to say that CO2 drove temperature in the past is simply wrong (there is nothing else to say here). The CO2 trail temperature (signifficantly) at every stage that has enough of a resolution. This means, CO2 couldn't be the driver in the past. Only add to the warming through the feedbacks.

I just don't see the how the sun just happens to cool off for 30 million years and then suddenly warm up just in time for industrialization. That's extremely unlikely.
It has less to do with "warming" or "cooling" of the sun, but more with the activity (sun spots, solar wind etc). The sun has cycles of activity. And the climate has cycles of activity accordingly. Are you claiming that the temperatures were monotonically declining for 30 million years untill they started climbing 150 years ago?

And for the last time. The sun didn't just "suddenly warm up just in time for industrialization". Research it the sun had a very active stage for the last 150 years. Unprecedented for the last 1000 years, in fact. And every single scientist agree (if you like the consensus so much) that the warming untill the 50th was due to natural causes. So, something triggered the warming.
 

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Oh, for the love of G-d. This is my last post on the subject, since we are treading water.
"General consensus" means exactly squat.

That's what you have to say if you are absolutely sure that some kind (nobody is sure exactly what) of solar something just happens to change with CO2 in the Miocene (17 million years ago...the last time CO2 levels where in the 400 ppmv and heading for 600, thoough we could break 700 in the next 50 years which would be the highest since the Paleocene-Eocene Thermal Maximum: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleocene–Eocene_Thermal_Maximum) and doesn't happen again until just now.
Even in the case where we give the greatest impact to some kind of solar thing (nobody knows what it is or when it happens), the sun has been less active since 1985, which means lots of amplification is happening, which means run-away, catestrophic stuff such as release of methane from ocean deposits:

Methane release
None of the above causes are alone sufficient to cause the carbon isotope excursion or warming observed at the PETM. The most obvious feedback mechanism that could amplify the initial perturbation is that of clathrates. At certain temperature and pressure conditions, methane - which is being produced continually by decomposing microbes in sea bottom sediments - is stable in a complex with water, which forms ice-like cages trapping the methane in solid form. As temperature rises, so the pressure at which this clathrate configuration is stable falls - so shallow clathrates dissociate, releasing methane gas to make its way into the atmosphere. Since biogenic clathrates have a δ13C signature of −60 ‰ (inorganic clathrates are the still rather large −40 ‰), relatively small masses can produce large δ13C excursions. Further, methane is a potent greenhouse gas - as it is released into the atmosphere, so it causes warming, and as the ocean transports this to the bottom sediments, it destabilises more clathrates. It would take around 2,300 years for an increased temperature to diffuse warm the sea bed to a depth sufficient to cause clathrates' release - although the exact time frame is highly dependent on a number of poorly-constrained assumptions.[35]
In order for the clathrate hypothesis to work, the oceans must show signs of being warmer slightly before the carbon isotope excursion - because it would take some time for the methane to become mixed into the system and δ13C-reduced carbon to be returned to the deep ocean sedimentary record. Until recently, the evidence suggested that the two peaks were in fact simultaneous, weakening the support for the methane theory. But recent work has managed to detect a short gap between the initial warming and the δ13C excursion.[36] Chemical markers of surface temperature (TEX86) also indicate that warming occurred around 3,000 years before the carbon isotope excursion, but this does not seem to hold true for all cores.[12] Notably, deeper (non-surface) waters do not appear to display evidence of this time gap.[37]
Analysis of these records reveals another interesting fact: plantktonic (floating) forams record the shift to lighter isotope values earlier than benthic (bottom dwelling) forams. The lighter (lower δ13C) methanogenic carbon can only be incorporated into the forams' shells after it has been oxidised. A gradual release of the gas would allow it to be oxidised in the deep ocean, which would make benthic forams' tests lighter earlier. The fact that the planktonic forams are the first to show the signal suggests that the methane was released so rapidly that its oxidation used up all the oxygen at depth in the water column, allowing some methane to reach the atmosphere unoxidised, where atmospheric oxygen would react with it. This observation also allows us to constrain the duration of methane release to under around 10,000 years.[36
 

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Which, catastrophic as it was, was a little less ominous than the present situation:

During these events, of which the PETM was by far the most severe, around 1,500 to 2,000 gigatons of carbon were released into the ocean/atmosphere system over the course of 1,000 years. This rate of carbon addition almost equals the rate at which carbon is being released into the atmosphere today through anthropogenic activity [1].
 

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Maybe you haven't noticed, but the temperatures started declining around 2002. There is a lag, similar to the fact that the maximum temperature during the day isn't on the moment when the solar irradiation is at it's peak (it has to do with oceans and their heat capacity)
 

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Maybe you haven't noticed, but the temperatures started declining around 2002. There is a lag, similar to the fact that the maximum temperature during the day isn't on the moment when the solar irradiation is at it's peak (it has to do with oceans and their heat capacity)

That's odd since 2005 is the hotest year on record. And what mechanism could have caused that? Did the solar mystery just switch on for 2005? How does the mysterious "lag" work? The sun gets less active in 1985 and temperatures go up and up until the sun unobservably does its mysterious thing and things get even hotter in 2005?
 

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That's odd since 2005 is the hotest year on record. And what mechanism could have caused that? Did the solar mystery just switch on for 2005? How does the mysterious "lag" work? The sun gets less active in 1985 and temperatures go up and up until the sun unobservably does its mysterious thing and things get even hotter in 2005?
Isn't it the usual AGW supporters' meme that one year is meaningless?
This is an assortment of relevant links I already posted, including the evaluation of recent temperature trends
http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3509160&postcount=149

Here is the answer to your question about the lag. It is not misterious at all. The system has heat capacity (a large one, because of the oceans). It absorbs heat, and then releases it even after the direct forcing is gone. Again, it is rather well accepted phenomena, used in the consensus theory as well.
From that link
To begin with, L & W write that solar activity decreased after 1985. This may almost be correct for the sunspot number (which remained the same) and perhaps correct for other solar activity proxies, but this is not correct for the cosmic rays. As is apparent from the first two figures above and below, the 1990 solar maximum caused a larger decrease in the cosmic ray flux, which implies that the temperature should have been higher in the 1990's than in the 1980's. This leaves a discrepancy between the solar maximum of 2001 which was weaker than the solar maximum of 1990, and the observed temperature increase

...snip

L & F assume (like many others before) that there should be a one-to-one correspondence between the temperature variations and solar activity. However, there are two important effects that should be considered and that arise because of the climate's heat capacity (predominantly the oceans). First, the response to short term variations in the radiative forcings are damped. This explains why the temperature variations in sync with the 11-year solar cycle are small (but they are present at the level which one expects from the observed cloud cover variations... about 0.1°C). Second, there is a lag between the response and the forcing. Typically, one expects lags which depend on the time scale of the variations. The 11-year solar cycle gives rise to a 2-year lag in the 0.1°C observed temperature variations. Similarly, the response to the 20th century warming should be delayed by typically a decade. Climatologists know this very well (the IPCC report, for example, includes simulation results for the many decades long response to a "step function" in the forcing, and climatologists talk about "global warming commitment" that even if the CO2 would stabilize, or even decrease, we should expect to see the "committed warming", e.g., Science 307), but L & F are not climatologists. They are solar physicists, so they may not have grasped this point to the extent that they should have.

Incidentally, this is not unlike a very well-known effect from everyday life. Even though the maximum radiation from the Sun is received near noon time, the maximum daily temperatures are obtained a few hours later in the afternoon. If we were to correlate the falling radiation between say noon and 3 pm (or between June 21 and July-August), to the increasing temperature over the same period, we would conclude that solar radiation causes cooling! This is exactly what L & F are doing. They are ignoring the fact that over the 20th century, solar activity increased tremendously (see the third figure below). So, even though the 2001 maximum is weaker than the 1990 maximum, we are still paying for the extra heat absorbed over several decades, from the middle of the 20th century.
Bolding mine
 

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Isn't it the usual AGW supporters' meme that one year is meaningless?
This is an assortment of relevant links I already posted, including the evaluation of recent temperature trends
http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3509160&postcount=149

Here is the answer to your question about the lag. It is not misterious at all. The system has heat capacity (a large one, because of the oceans). It absorbs heat, and then releases it even after the direct forcing is gone. Again, it is rather well accepted phenomena, used in the consensus theory as well.
From that link

Bolding mine

Sorry for not following the "meme"...but I calls em like I sees em. (the opposite of an meme its a em em)

So sometimes the consensus is right? Anyway this consensus at best suggests the sun might be contributing something and it still doesn't line up well with the primary curve, ie the current heating.
It seems much simpler simply to admit that in this instance the "amplification" started before the signal to be amplified...ie CO2 has been climbing in step with temperature. We know it amplifies and this time the amplification happens to have come before the very weak solar signal.

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2007/04/the-lag-between-temp-and-co2/
 
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dmytryp

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Sorry for not following the "meme"...but I calls em like I sees em. (the opposite of an meme its a em em)
And that refers to what exactly?

So sometimes the consensus is right? Anyway this consensus at best suggests the sun might be contributing something and it still doesn't line up well with the primary curve, ie the current heating.
Wha? The only time I referenced the consensus was with regards to the lag. What exactly are you talking about. Of course, there is no consensus about the effect of the sun. if there was, we wouldn't be talking.

It seems much simpler simply to admit that in this instance the "amplification" started before the signal to be amplified...ie CO2 has been climbing in step with temperature. We know it amplifies and this time the amplification happens to have come before the very weak solar signal.

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2007/04/the-lag-between-temp-and-co2/
And again, I have no idea what you are talking about here. It is not "simpler" to dismiss a well known physical phenomena so it will suit your theory.
Do me a favor. Heat up a cup of water by irradiation, slowly increasing this irradiation, and then stop the irradiation. Mesure the temperature above the water, and tell me when the temperature hits maximum.
 

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Do me a favor. Heat up a cup of water by irradiation, slowly increasing this irradiation, and then stop the irradiation. Mesure the temperature above the water, and tell me when the temperature hits maximum.

Do me a favor. Take a planet and pump ever-increasing amounts of CO2 into the atmosphere. Watch the temperature go up in lock step with the increasing CO2.
Note that CO2 is known to be an amplifier of temperature in the atmosphere. Tell me why it is not amplifying right now.
 

dmytryp

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Do me a favor. Take a planet and pump ever-increasing amounts of CO2 into the atmosphere. Watch the temperature go up in lock step with the increasing CO2.
That's nice, but I wasn't vacetous. I really mean, do this simple experiment. Take a lamp with a rheostat. Put it over a glass of water and gradually turn it on. Then stop. Take a thermometer (here is the more problematic part, because the changes might be small, so a thermocouple would be much better) and measure the temperature over the cup. See if the maximum temperature coincides with the moment you turn off the lamp.

Note that CO2 is known to be an amplifier of temperature in the atmosphere. Tell me why it is not amplifying right now.
I have no idea what do you mean here.
 

Higgins

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I have no idea what do you mean here.

Increasing CO2 causes the temperature of the atmosphere to increase. Since CO2 is increasing, we can expect the atmospheric temperature to go on increasing.
For example
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2006/05/positive-feedbacks-from-the-carbon-cycle/

Two papers appeared in Geophysical Research Letters today claiming that the warming forecast for the coming century may be underestimated, because of positive feedbacks in the carbon cycle. One comes from Torn and Harte, and the other from Scheffer, Brovkin, and Cox. Both papers conclude that warming in the coming century could be increased by carbon cycle feedbacks, by 25-75% or so. Do we think it's time to push the big red Stop the Press button down at IPCC?
The approaches of both papers are similar. The covariation of temperature versus CO2 (and methane in Torn and Harte) is tabulated for a record in the past. For the Torn and Harte paper, the time frame chosen is the last 360,000 years, while Scheffer et al. focus on the Little Ice Age, from 1500-1600 A.D. In both cases it is assumed that the climate shift is driven by some external thermal driver. As the temperature warms (in the case of the deglaciation) or cools (the LIA), the CO2 concentration of the atmosphere changes in the sense of a positive feedback, rising associated with warming or falling in response to cooling. The changing CO2 drives a further change in temperature.