The Old Neverending PublishAmerica Thread (Publish America)

triceretops · Oct 22, 2005

-PA is a stepping stone to recognition in the industry. Balderdash. Even without the warnings from AW, PA would have the same stigma attached to it that it does now. Self-published and vanity books have been suspect for at least the last thirty years, since Vantage, I believe, started this whole mess way back when. Back-door vanity presses are and have been frowned upon by the major houses and general book buying public. There are no standards for excellence employed, it's all up to the author to edit for content, let alone re-correct grammar and syntax mistakes made carelessly by the vanity outfit.

Tri

triceretops · Oct 22, 2005

-You need an agent to get published Tradionally. Untruth. Sold my books without one. I have 14 current submissions out to small, medium, and even a few large houses that are happy to read your submissions without representation. And I've still got my list to add too! Actually, I'm a freight train going at 70mph and agents kinda slow me down. I submit faster and can target well, but I do like the way they can negotiate a deal, re-write clauses, work with me on improvement, and get lots more money. Been on both ends.

Tri

Dawno · Oct 22, 2005

JennaGlatzer said:
-Editors don't edit anymore. Lie. Just wait until I'm in revisions mode in a month or two and listen to how much I whine about all the changes an editor wants. Sometimes I wish they would edit less. Rarely do I think they should edit more.

And out of the OTHER side of their mouths is this:

We don't touch style issues, we don't edit the author's voice, tone, or delivery

The inference here is that other publisher's editors do this kind of editing. So what is it PA? Do other editors do real edits or not?

Oh, they have returnability up in their faq's - someone be sure to get a screen capture of this so when it disappears you can prove they did once say PA books are returnable...

Rose colored glasses · Oct 22, 2005

Posted by Jenna-

The hard truth is that most of the books are bad-- regardless of all the other factors against them-- and that creates a stigma in itself that doesn't wash off even if the books suddenly become returnable and have standard discounts.

It's hard to put into words how devastating this is. The initial excitement felt when PA sends that acceptance letter and offers a contract is crushed when the realization comes that it means as much as being in a pile of essays on a fourth grade teacher's desk. It's deeply disappointing and humiliating.

It is an obstacle that is almost impossible to overcome; for those, such as Jenna's reviewers, who have read really bad PA books do not want to chance reading another.

Like I've said before, it makes PA a millstone around the neck - impossible to remove.

Canada James · Oct 22, 2005

JennaGlatzer said:
-Editors don't edit anymore.

I had no idea what "editing" meant until I had a book with a commercial publisher. Now I go for edits every Monday, and will do so for the next year until the new book is written.

JennaGlatzer said:
-Publishers aren't looking for new writers.

It's because publishers want to discover the next Stephen King and James Patterson that they take new writers.

Cj

Canada James · Oct 22, 2005

triceretops said:
-It's highly unlikely that any Traditional Publisher will get you on bookstore shelves.

My publisher is just now getting the recognition from bookstores that he rightly deserves. He puts together amazing books and really takes pride in them.

He went as far as to sign with a major distributor (that has a sales force - that is, a person who goes bookstore to bookstore promoting his books).

Just today he stopped by my place of work to tell me that he went on a tour of stores in California, and saw my book not only in the stores but on display on tables. What stores? I have no idea. (I'm not overly familiar with bookstores in the US.) The best part: I don't *have* to have an idea! That's what I wanted for my PA book!

Cj

Canada James · Oct 22, 2005

JennaGlatzer said:
Thing is, I've heard people say "If I'd known that PA books weren't returnable [or something similar], I never would have signed with them." I don't think that's true-- and here's why:

If I had known that PA didn't have a catalogue, that would have stopped me from signing. I just assumed that any publisher whose goal is to sell to the public would have a catalogue.

Well, I still assume that.

Cj

JennaGlatzer · Oct 22, 2005

Right, but you did have industry experience-- you worked in a bookstore, hence you've seen publishers' catalogues. Joe Public probably has never seen a publishers' catalogue and doesn't see the big deal.

And that's what I mean. There's no shame in not knowing what industry standard is if you're new to the industry. I'm sure I never asked my first publisher, "Hey, do you accept returns and do you have a catalogue and what sort of discounts do you offer bookstores?" I just expected that they were publishers, so they knew what they were doing, and they would want my book to sell. I was right-- but I was also lucky. I'm not sure what I would have thought if I had stumbled on PA as a new writer. I might have believed them too.

astonwest · Oct 23, 2005

Jenna said:
What bothers me, though, is the number of PA authors who suddenly swing the opposite direction and think, "My writing must be bad." Why?

Knowing the odds helps solidify this self-perception...
as does the sudden knowledge that everything else you thought you knew has been a sham.
Negativity breeds negativity, and all that.

Dawno said:
Oh, they have returnability up in their faq's - someone be sure to get a screen capture of this so when it disappears you can prove they did once say PA books are returnable...

I've never seen their FAQs before (they certainly didn't have such a thing when I signed on)...what I found most amusing was the next FAQ, where they first go on to claim that an author's share of the work should be minimal, and then out of the other side of their mouth claim that the author should work as much as possible to promote their book...ah, such fun can be found in contradiction.

Jaws · Oct 23, 2005

Just to reinforce a few things Jenna said:

JennaGlatzer said:
• All authors start by selling from the trunks of their cars.

I didn't. Ann Crispin didn't. Victoria Strauss didn't. Mary Doria Russell didn't. Of late, the only author who fits this "profile" is John Grisham… and he's a lawyer, so he's not typical. (He was a tax lawyer in a small Mississippi firm, so he wasn't even typical for a lawyer!) Keep in mind, too, that the trunk-of-the-car sales had zero effect on Grisham's "literary career," which was driven by a Hollywood deal made based on a manuscript for the next book after the "trunk-of-the-car" book. Finally, remember that no matter what the urban legends say, Grisham was not self-published; he had purchased books for resale using his author discount from his small-press publisher.

JennaGlatzer said:
• You have to have connections.

Only if you want to be a "celebrity author" are pre-publishing connections necessary. Connections may be helpful in a serendipitous sense—if you have a connection, you might know a tidbit of news that puts your proposal or manuscript on a specific editor's desk at the moment he/she is looking for something like that—but that's really the agent's job.

JennaGlatzer said:
• Publishers don't promote anymore.

Snort. Just what do you call that raft of ARCs that goes out 90 days or so prior to publication?

JennaGlatzer said:
• If your book is any good, it will sell.

It may sell; it probably won't sell enough to justify the next book getting a better deal.

JennaGlatzer said:
• Price doesn't affect sales.

If price doesn't affect sales, why do so many people wait for the paperback edition?

JennaGlatzer said:
• Publishers aren't looking for new writers.

What publishers aren't looking for is new writers who are exactly like what they've got now. New writers need to be either (1) comparable enough to what that publisher already knows how to sell, but with a new voice, or (2) coming to the publisher with a built-in marketing/publicity platform, particularly in serious nonfiction. A "platform" isn't the same thing as "connections" by any means; "connections" reach into the dark insides of the publishing industry itself, while "platforms" reach into the dark insides of the potential book-buying public.

JennaGlatzer · Oct 23, 2005

astonwest said:
Knowing the odds helps solidify this self-perception...

But they're the same odds as unpublished writers face. If you thought your writing was good before it was published, why does being published with PA mean now your writing is bad? It's as much of a nonissue as having blue eyes, or having a dog. 90% of the slush pile is bad, which you probably knew coming into this game... but what I find more often is that those who are worried that their work is bad are the ones who actually have promise. They have the humility to realize there's still work to be done, which means they care about their craft.

It's the ones who are sure they're above all that who easily fall into the 90%. Want proof? http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21025

He's just spammed at least 9 boards, announcing that this is "the action-novel of the year!!!" Did he come here to learn anything? No, just to grace us all with his supreme talent. The moment you realize, as a new writer, that you still have work to do, you're already on your way to moving beyond that 90%.

Bufty · Oct 23, 2005

PA BOARD said:
Thomas, thanks for pointing that out. I haven't got my book back from being printed. I don't know what price they will put on it because I don't know how many pages it will be after they break it down for printing. Now what worries me and for ya'll that is happy to just have your book printed, fine, but I'm like Brenda. Even though I love writing my books, I'm in it for the money, plus I'm an unknown author and if my book is priced to high it will never sale and how will I pay my bills with that or how will PA make any money back off of it? If strangers don't know my work they are not going to dish out a wad of money just to read my book. So where do we voice these concerns if not on the boards? I'm in for the money. The excitiment of getting a book published is a bonus that goes with it.

Good question. Answer? It won't sell, sadly, except to you, which unfortunately doesn't help your situation at all but does show you how PA makes its money.

Jean Marie · Oct 23, 2005

JennaGlatzer said:
JennaGlatzer said:

But they're the same odds as unpublished writers face. If you thought your writing was good before it was published, why does being published with PA mean now your writing is bad?

Click to expand...

Because when you realize that PA accepts anything, even if it's a list of ingredients used in toilet paper, your confidence goes down the pipes. Jenna, PA gives the uninitiated an entrance into the, dare I say it, the world of being a published author. When the truth hits you-when it hit me, I felt the most intense kick in my very soul, my core. It nearly destroyed my identity. I don't think of myself as the strongest of the bunch, but, I'm programmed to not quit before the miracle happens. The miracle came when I met you and the woman at Borders-my mom says you 2 are my angels.

You and I both know that there are a number of PA'ers who've put away pen and paper because of what's happened to them. I also know that there are a few of us who are eternally grateful to you and Mac that we're included in SOS. Do you have any idea what the impact of mine/our acceptance is??? For me, there are no appropriate adjectives that can describe it. Why do you think I get so mushy w/ the thank you's?

It's as much of a nonissue as having blue eyes, or having a dog. 90% of the slush pile is bad, which you probably knew coming into this game... but what I find more often is that those who are worried that their work is bad are the ones who actually have promise. They have the humility to realize there's still work to be done, which means they care about their craft.

Click to expand...

Leave my dog out of this! Don't you dare call Kola Bear a non-issue <<Kola, don't give Jenna the paw, she wasn't talking about you...Kola, c'mon...>>

For me, learning is a constant that I hope always remains in my life. It's the only way I know how to grow.

Rose colored glasses · Oct 23, 2005

Jenna said-

but what I find more often is that those who are worried that their work is bad are the ones who actually have promise. They have the humility to realize there's still work to be done, which means they care about their craft.

Jean Marie said -

Because when you realize that PA accepts anything, even if it's a list of ingredients used in toilet paper, your confidence goes down the pipes. Jenna, PA gives the uninitiated an entrance into the, dare I say it, the world of being a published author. When the truth hits you-when it hit me, I felt the most intense kick in my very soul, my core. It nearly destroyed my identity

I second what Jean Marie said. It's hard to explain unless you've been there. All the facts brought out here about PA, all the embarrassing truths, get tied up in our identities a bit. Our books are that - that publishing underbelly that is PA. Our books are lumped in with the "Publish anything", slush quality, not-ready-for-publication group.

I thought my book was well written compared to a lot of what I saw on the PA board. Now I'm here, and I read my book and wince. It's not horrible, but it needs a lot of work. A lot of work. It's made me question whether I have what it takes. I realize I'm so far down on the food chain that I don't know if I can ever work my way up.

Ken Schneider · Oct 23, 2005

It's the ones who are sure they're above all that who easily fall into the 90%. Want proof? http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21025

Yes, when one does begin to learn more and more about the craft they start to see the mistakes.

Those who need help don't know they do. Then, they query publishers and receive rejections and don't know why.

This is the group that PA. preys on, the unknowing.

PA's accepting of any work makes new writers think they've reached some pinnicle in writing. We have no idea who is good and who isn't, and neither does PA's untrained staff.

With that in mind, it is a crap shoot in buying their books. Another knock to the chance for sales.

History has a way of making people wary. So it goes with PA's offerings.

I am proud to say I have learned so much from many here at AW. I have a long way to go, but have made some strides in the right direction.

Thanks to all here who have offered their expertise in the craft of writing.

Woody Hayes, the Ohio State football coach of yesteryear once said.
"Anything easy ain't worth a damn."

PA sure is easy to get published with.

To be published by real, commercial publishers, isn't easy. They must be worth a damn.

Jean Marie · Oct 23, 2005

Rose colored glasses said:
I thought my book was well written compared to a lot of what I saw on the PA board. Now I'm here, and I read my book and wince. It's not horrible, but it needs a lot of work. A lot of work. It's made me question whether I have what it takes. I realize I'm so far down on the food chain that I don't know if I can ever work my way up.

Which is why it's taken me 3 months to rewrite my book. That's an average of 8 hours every single day. I'm embarrassed to the point of humiliation that it's out there in its present condition. And, I'm scared to death as to how it will be received now. That probably explains why I'm procrastinating editing the last 60 pages.

That's what PA does: it crushes you. Jenna, why do you think us exPA'ers need so much support and are so skittish? It is a cult and I wish to God more people out there would believe that. Jeez, and I grew up in S. Cal during the height of cult activity. I'm mortified I was snared.

Anyone I mention it to at the roundtables, well, nobody has a kind word for PA. Each time I tell someone about it, the punch in my stomach lessens a bit more. Eventually, I/we'll heal completely and then we can move on. It's a painful process to reshape/rebuild your/my confidence.

James D. Macdonald · Oct 23, 2005

vipersmile said:
In Stephen King's ON WRITING it clearly states ( Although I know it's an opinion) that Vanity and POD is not a bad market, and may be the way to go.

Hi, Eric. Good to hear from you again.

I'm sorry, but I don't remember that from On Writing. Maybe I just missed it. Do you think you could post the full quote?

Oh, and if I'm not wrong, I believe your PA book isn't out yet. I'd appreciate it if, one year after its release, you'd drop back by and compare your PA experience with your Teri Woods experience at the one-year point.

Lady of Prose · Oct 23, 2005

Echo

I can only echo what the other ex-PA authors have stated here last night and today.

I am here to say that signing with PA has the potential to make you depressed, physically ill, and take away all your confidence as a writer.

Yes, it is truth that AW is a type of "savior" of writing talent for some of the authors who frequent here. Without the encouragement and avenue to vent found at AW, it would have been very easy for me to give up and stop writing. However, realizing that others who are probably better writers than me, are going through the same thing, gave me the guts to pick myself up and keep going.

I will not give the scum of the literary world the credit for bringing me down. Only I can do that by giving up and not improving my craft to make it truly ready for publication.

I had about 25 rejections letters before finding PA--a drop in the bucket compared to some great writers. I made a very poor judgment from being too trusting, gullible and in a hurry.

Finally, My thoughts are these. If one is a good writer or has potential to be a good writer--with work, the break finally comes. There are no short cuts. Those who submitted only once or a few times, and were accepted, will themselves admit they were in the right place at the right time and are not necessarily a better writer than others who are facing rejection after rejection.

All of our energy should be focused on getting our manuscripts and queries polished and ready to go. Not spent on "promoting" for someone like PA.

Lady of Prose · Oct 23, 2005

Open Statement to PA Lurkers

If you are one of the typical and popular PA author "reviewers", I am particularly directing my statement to you.

I have read many PA books and they were lousy, period. Some have potential, but most are lousy.

For those of you who do the majority of the reviews, my question is this. Why do you continually give those phony five star reviews when you know you are lying? What earthly good are you doing the author? You are giving them at the very least, false hope and are furthering their grief and disappointment when they finally see the truth about PA. Most of you, not all, are fine and intelligent people. Why are you doing it? Does it make you feel important to have people rave over your ability with words? What happens to their opinion of you when they per chance read the book or books you gave a glowing review for, and find you to be less than truthful?

All the spelling and grammar errors do matter to serious readers. They know the difference between editing glitches and poor writing skills. Give them some credit!

Shame on you.

astonwest · Oct 23, 2005

Jean Marie said:
Because when you realize that PA accepts anything, even if it's a list of ingredients used in toilet paper, your confidence goes down the pipes. Jenna, PA gives the uninitiated an entrance into the, dare I say it, the world of being a published author. When the truth hits you-when it hit me, I felt the most intense kick in my very soul, my core. It nearly destroyed my identity.

And I will third what Jean Marie said above...she put it much better than I did.

For those of us who have an adequate support network (not trying to start board wars, but for myself, it was the folks over at Mindsight), it keeps us going, keeps us writing. But not all PA authors have that support network...which is why (in my opinion) others give it up completely.

JennaGlatzer · Oct 23, 2005

Rose colored glasses said:
Now I'm here, and I read my book and wince. It's not horrible, but it needs a lot of work.

First books are supposed to need a lot of work. That's why most of them don't get published. Jim, where's the first book you ever wrote? Mine languishes on my hard drive, thank goodness. I won't erase it-- I like looking back sometimes and realizing how far I've come. But if I used that first attempt as my barometer to measure my talent, I'd think I was a pretty lousy writer.

Wait, I'll work on my bravery. I'll let you see the first thing I ever wrote for publication. It doesn't belong in this thread... I'll post it temporarily in Share Your Work if I get up my nerve, then I'll come back and give you a link. If it doesn't make you feel better about your own writing, I'm at a loss.

It's made me question whether I have what it takes.

Of course, no one can answer that for you, but my only advice here is to judge yourself fairly. Very few people are "great" right out of the starting gates. Most writers I know have at least one book that never got published-- some have several. Later, they realized that those were practice runs. You learn by doing. You learn something every time you write, if you're paying attention. So the questions become:

Do I have a base level of talent? (Yes, you do.)
Do I have the patience to work at this craft for however long it takes (probably a year or more) until I can write something that will attract commercial publishers?
Am I willing to accept that not everything I write is going to be publishable?
Do I have the discipline to edit my work?
Do I have the humility to accept criticisms and suggestions from editors and publishers?

If you enjoy writing, don't let this experience stop you. Use it to fuel you. Make a vow to yourself that you're going to show those rats at PA what a real writer can do.

MacAllister · Oct 23, 2005

Heh--my first creative writing prof (a moderately successful poet and small-press novelist) begged me to drop his class. He said he'd never seen so many cliches and so much overblown language packed into ten pages.

I'm not kidding.

He made me promise to stick to writing nice critical essays, and never, ever take another class from him.

The thing to remember is that PA is just as willing to publish a good book as a bad book. They don't care.

JennaGlatzer · Oct 23, 2005

Mac, that's awful! I'll have to remember who it was now, but there's a famous novelist with a similar tale. She gave up writing because a prof made her promise never to write again in exchange for passing his class. Many years later, she decided to try again.

Edit: found it. Catherine Lanigan (Romancing the Stone, The Jewel of the Nile).

OK, I worked up my nerve. For now. Here's my first-ever piece for publication: http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=370730#post370730. Fair warning: It's a rape story.

Lady of Prose · Oct 23, 2005

MacAllister said:
Heh--my first creative writing prof made me promise to stick to writing nice critical essays, and never, ever take another class from him.

If mine got his hands on my book, he's probably saying, "I knew that girl wasn't listening."

MacAllister · Oct 23, 2005

See, that's the thing, Lady. Most of the writers I know have a similar story. It makes me wonder if being able to just grit your teeth and work your @ss off to get better isn't just part of it.

I'll look for the link, but Teresa Nielsen Hayden once said of Stephen Brust that he was a complete pleasure to work with because he approached novel-writing as a set of skills, a craft to be learned, and ignored the question of talent.

In my case, it made me grit my teeth and work harder. I did drop the class. I never took another creative writing class, either. You know what? That prof was right. The piece I'd turned in was dreadful.

Some of the PA books I've seen are pretty bad. Some are okay. A few of 'em are pretty good books.

As writers, though, I wonder if we don't internalize that "I suck" place, and use it to spur ourselves to try and get better. The thing that's so dreadful about coming from PA is equating the company's reputation with the identity of your own book--which is clearly a false equation.

PA isn't a terrible company because it prints bad books--it's the fact that they print books that aren't ready for publication, then lie to their authors about that. It's because they exploit the hopes of these authors, and derail them--or at least detour them--when instead, these writers could be focused on building and polishing their craft.

The Old Neverending PublishAmerica Thread (Publish America)

Shiny!

Take off!

Take off!

Take off!

wishes you happiness

2 WIP? A glutton for punishment

Apex Predator

wishes you happiness

Where have the last ten years gone?

calm waters ahead

Absolute sagebrush

calm waters ahead

Your Genial Uncle

Member - the "Sting Gang."

Member - the "Sting Gang."

2 WIP? A glutton for punishment

wishes you happiness

Tired and worried.

wishes you happiness

Member - the "Sting Gang."

Tired and worried.