The Old Neverending PublishAmerica Thread (Publish America)

James D. Macdonald · Aug 13, 2005

Personal for Saundra and Carol:

Look, I know you mean well, and you're just repeating what others have told you, but those others don't know what they're talking about.

I heard that one of you said: "PA may not promote their books BUT try getting a "big" named publishing house to promote a first time author's book and LOTS of luck with that one!"

First, it's true: PA doesn't promote their books (even though they go to a fair amount of trouble to give new authors the impression that they do -- it's called "false and misleading advertising").

It's also true that major publishers don't "promote" most authors' books -- if by that you mean buying newspaper ads and printing up custom tee-shirts. Do you know why they don't do it? Because it costs more than the likely increased book sales would bring in. Here's something you can take to the bank: The same will be true for you. If you buy newspaper ads and print up custom tee-shirts -- it'll cost you more than you bring in.

Here's the very minimum level of promotion that the last book on a major publisher's list gets:

1) Listed in a catalog that goes to all bookstores and libraries.
2) Mentioned by flesh-and-blood sales people to the folks who order for brick-and-mortar bookstores.
3) Review copies in advance of publication to major review venues.
4) Advertisements in trade (as in bookstore-trade) publications.

PublishAmerica does none of those things. And those things are all beyond your means too. Even knowing exactly what they are, you don't have the time, the staff, or the money to handle it yourself.

I know that you're hopeful. I know that you think that the experience of literally thousands of other people doesn't apply to you -- that you'll be able to manage what no one else has achieved. You haven't seen even one royalty check yet (for one of you, September will be the first, for the other, your first will be in February '06). When it happens, sit down and subtract that royalty from the amount you spent on promotion and tell me whether it all made sense. Ask yourself if you couldn't have gotten the same or better results running off copies of your book at Kinko's.

Yeah, I know too that it's all in the contract and that you're the clever ones who read and understood that contract, not like those whiners who thought that they'd have a best seller. But I'm here to tell you -- you didn't understand the contract. Not at all.

In effect, the PA contract says that if you flap your arms hard enough to fly up to that first cloud that PA will take it from there and your time in the air will be just wonderful.

Here's why your books are DOA:

1) High cover price (they're priced to make a tidy profit for PA on 50 copies sold to the author).
2) No returns policy, plus payment in advance. If the book doesn't sell, the bookstore is stuck with it. A pure loss, and takes shelf space away from books that might sell.
3) Short discount. Even if the book does sell the bookstore makes less money than with another book of the same price.
4) The poor quality of other PA books. Sure, your publisher "took a chance" on you. Maybe you got a bookstore to "take a chance" on you. How in the world will you get readers (who aren't your friends and family) to "take a chance" on you?

No number of bookmarks and postcards and pens imprinted with your book's title will overcome those disadvantages.

Come here in a year. Tell us how it all worked out for you. Tell us how PA is better than any of the other pay-to-play POD vanity presses. We've got chairs waiting for you.

priceless1 · Aug 13, 2005

Alan Yee said:
I've heard that PA throws away letters from their authors' lawyers.

They may, but I can assure you that their lawyer doesn't.

As for what happened to Sparhawk, I'm beyond speechless. Bless you for what you've had to endure.

James D. Macdonald · Aug 13, 2005

Another thought about the minimum promotion I mentioned above: If the minimum wasn't good enough it wouldn't be the minimum. That minor level of promotion is enough for a publisher to recoup the thousands of dollars it spent on bringing out a particular book, including the thousands of dollars that went to the advance, and make a profit besides.

==============

Personal for Jeff:

I am sick and tired of reading different posts and people say well its not about the money for me I do it because I enjoy writing.

Do you know why PA authors keep going on about how "it isn't about the money"? It's the literal meaning of "sour grapes." Check out Aesop's fable:
The moral of the story is "It is easy to despise what you cannot get."

I'm sure we all do it because we enjoy writing but how does PA make money if youre not looking to make money.

Here's how PA makes money: By selling copies of your book to you. PA doesn't care if you make money or not. To them it's all the same if there are a hundred copies on bookstore shelves or sitting in a box at the back of your closet. In fact, they're happier with the books in your closet: They make more money on books you order yourself than they do on books bought by bookstores.

I'm going to show PA that I intend to make them money along with myself by hard work.

The sound you hear is Larry Clopper laughing at you.

PA sets up royalties as good as the next company if you sell hundreds of thousands like the best sellers or even millions this is what you can make out of it.

A couple of issues here: First, PA's royalties aren't as good as the next company's. PA's royalties are 8% of net, as opposed to 10-15% of cover price. Second, no PA author has ever sold even ten thousand books, let alone hundreds of thousands or millions.

All I'm asking is that you keep it real.

Equally, Jeff. Your book's been out for a month. Let us know in a year what the reality turned out to be.

=========

Personal for Tim:

I know that what gave you a wedgie was Argile Stox's article over at Useless Knowledge. Your book isn't even scheduled yet. When your book has been out as long as Argile's, how about you agree to revisit the issue? Maybe, after you've gone as far down the path as he has, you'll see the same things he's seeing.

Rose colored glasses · Aug 13, 2005

The "minimum" that other publishers do makes a huge difference, I'm sure. My book has only been out a few weeks so it's too early to tell much, but I would be kidding myself and everyone else if I said it isn't a handicap that my book isn't in stores. If it were, how many people browsing the book aisles might pick it up and buy it?

As it stands, I am spending hours every day sending out tons of emails to anyone or any organization/agency/university/group who may be interested. The result so far - a handful of emails back. I have one fairly firm offer to use my book, per a university program director, but not much else. My sales ranking on amazon is slipping daily.

Maybe people just aren't interested in my book topic. Still, I have to believe that it would have a better chance in stores.

Oh, and my out of pocket expense so far:
editing ( to make sure it was done right) - $400
business cards and labels- $40
PRweb - $80
books and writers ( a waste) - $10
my first 50 books - $413
website- $107
search engine placement - $70

What I've made so far - $1 "advance"

Still, PA was the only one who would look at my book. Non-PA readers have told me it's well written, but I never got the chance to show my manuscript to either an agent or a publisher besides PA. So it's kind of a between-a-rock-and-a-hard-place scenario.

AC Crispin · Aug 13, 2005

Bookstore Experiences

To the folks who commented that there's no difference between the way commercially published authors are treated by bookstores, and PA/POD authors -- that all authors are treated with indifference because no publisher does promotion.

Wrong.

Uncle Jim has pointed this out already in one way, but, since I currently have a book that has just come out, let me just illustrate the difference in the way I am treated when I walk into a bookstore than when a PA/POD author walks into a bookstore. (Especially a chain bookstore.)

1. My book is already on the bookstore shelf. The clerk or info specialist or Community Relations Coordinator can look up the book and verify that it's physically THERE.

2. My book has "Harper" on the spine. The bookstore folks recognize that name and know that it's a big commercial publisher, one they deal with all the time, one that fills orders reliably, offers discounts, etc.

3. When I tell the folks I'd like to do a signing, they smile and say, "Sure! That would be great! Here's the number for the CRC (if he or she isn't present in the store), or "Let me get the person who handles signings over here to talk to you so we can set something up."

4. Once I am talking to the person who handles signings, I give that person the name and email address of my publicity rep at Harper, so they can coordinate any details.

5. The bookstore knows that when they order 20 or 30 or 50 books for that signing that the books will be THERE for them on the day of the signing. I don't have to pay for those books in advance, or guarantee them in any way, because the books are RETURNABLE if they don't sell.

Just having a book on the shelf in bookstores is better than all the tee shirts, book marks, coffee mugs, etc., in the world, trust me.

If you'd like to discuss this further, via email, my addy is [email protected]

The difference between promoting a commercially published book and a PA/POD book is night and day.

I wish I could explain all of this to PA authors BEFORE they sign that wretched, no loophole contract. They all think that they're the one who will beat those odds...but they don't realize that they're playing with a rigged roulette wheel or that the dealer is flipping cards from a crooked deck. WHEN YOU GAMBLE WITH PA, THE HOUSE ALWAYS WINS, AND YOU, THE AUTHOR, ALWAYS LOSE. BIG TIME.

-Ann C. Crispin
Author: STORMS OF DESTINY/HarperEos
www.accrispin.com

Ken Schneider · Aug 13, 2005

Sadly, P.A. will, (give your book the chance it deserves) to anyone. P.A. will also print any scribbling sent them.

I have found through my own struggle to write better, is to not get overly excited about what I've written.

The author gets excited and rushes to publication in any manner they can to realize a dream. P.A. preys on this type of green writer. The ignorant, that end up educated through pain and suffering at the hands of liars and cheats.

As Uncle Jim has said a million times, study your craft, write a better book, make it the best it can be, and write another.

If you played golf everyday you'd be a better golfer. Write everyday, and you'll learn more about what it takes.

Ken
mtc

DaveKuzminski · Aug 13, 2005

To those who are considering PA or have already signed with it, try comparing yourself with my results, keeping in mind that only a few of my books are in print and most are those "dreaded" ebooks.

If you're a PA author whose book came out in the last six months, ask yourself how many copies of your book PA sold to strangers who don't know you.

My publisher sold 75 copes of Mark II in the last six months. Actually, only since February since that's when it came out. Has PA sold half that many for you? Okay, let's make it easier. Have they sold a third as much? Still too high? How about a tenth? That's only 7.5 books and I'll round down to 7 just to make it easier.

I'll wait patiently to hear whose book PA actually sold that many copies of.

Rose colored glasses · Aug 13, 2005

I posted this in the newbie forum, but how do I know how many books I've sold? Aside from what the publisher tells me in a royalites statement,that is.

Someone on the PA board said a site called Books and Writers will tell the volume sold, so I subscribed, but all they tell me is my amazon ranking, which I can find out myself by going to amazon! :Hammer:

I've read several posts here quoting number of books sold - how did you find that out?

DaveKuzminski · Aug 13, 2005

You'll know by your royalty statement. That's how I know how many of my books were sold. My publishers send me accurate royalty statements along with nice checks. I don't give away bookmarks, sign up for promotion services, or buy advertising. In other words, I don't have any expenses for Mark II. It's all profit. I leave it all to my publisher unless they ask me to participate in something. Instead, I spend my free time writing more books, aside from what I do for P&E, too.

Rose colored glasses · Aug 13, 2005

Ok ok ok!

I'm attemping to join in the conversation here, but I feel like I'm dodging burning missiles instead.
Maybe I'm missing the purpose of this thread. Is it a back and forth conversation between this board and the PA board? Is it simply meant to hurl insults and snarks in PA's direction? If so and I'm just getting in the way, I'll go.
The bottom line is that, for better or worse, my book was published by PA. It's too late for me to do anything about that now. I appreciate how they treated me and am grateful for the book, but I'm also not a blind sheep bowing before the Shrine of PublishAmerica. I know there are many drawbacks and issues. I am an open minded person. I'm not here to argue with anyone. I'm trying to salvage my book as best I can.

JennaGlatzer · Aug 13, 2005

Hi Deb!

I'll try to summarize what's happened with this topic...

Long ago, someone started a thread here to warn people that there were problems with PublishAmerica. A few people you see around here (like Ann Crispin, Victoria Strauss, and Dave Kuzminski) are "professional" scam-hunters. I put "professional" in quotes only because they don't get paid for it-- they do it on a volunteer basis-- but all three have devoted tons of time over the course of many years to investigating scams in the writing world and trying to keep writers out of trouble. They've been instrumental in bringing down some of the worst literary scammers in recent history... some of whom are now in jail

banana: ).

Well, along with those three, several other professional authors jumped in and realized that this was a big problem. Here was a company with a great flair for advertising, a company that knew just how to woo lots of inexperienced authors... but a company that was crooked in so many ways, and abusive to their own authors.

So a bunch of PublishAmerica authors gathered here to talk about what was happening, and to figure out what they could do, and the pro authors told them about what "real" publishing should be like and how it differs from PublishAmerica's model.

Some of the people on this thread now were the most vocal PA supporters a year or so ago. They all wanted to believe that we were wrong (I don't blame them!) and that PA would live up to its promises. One by one, as they got their royalty statements and found out how many ways PA would actually stand in the way of their success, they turned around and told us their stories and tried to warn others against signing with PA.
We gathered together to take action. Most of the action is writing letters and trying to get help from people in a position of power. We've succeeded in our media goals: There have been more than a dozen reports about PublishAmerica in newspapers, on TV, etc., warning aspiring writers not to fall into this trap.

Along the way, more and more PA authors found us. Some just needed a place to vent when they crashed to reality and realized what PA was about. Some wanted answers about steps they could take to get back their rights or fight back. Some are in the same situation you are-- trying to figure out how to make the most of things despite the handicaps they're facing.

You'll see us commenting on threads on the PA boards here because we're so often trying to get real information over there! We can't post on PA's boards, of course, and it kills us when we see writers over there giving each other bad advice, advice that'll often cost other writers a lot of wasted time and money. We know that a lot of those PA authors lurk here, so we hope that some of them will learn from the info here even if they don't post, or don't want to admit it.

You'll see us analyzing contracts and communications from PA, like when PA recently sent out revised "non-exclusive" contracts to people who wanted their rights back... they wanted to know whether signing those revised contracts was a good idea or bad idea.

So, in short, the thread has become a lot of different things... a place to learn about the industry, a place to come up with plans of action, a place to correct misinformation, a place to warn writers who haven't yet signed with PA, and a place to vent. I hope you'll stick around. You're more than welcome here and you don't need to feel pressured to launch any missles.

Our beef has always been with PA itself, and not with its authors! I think we have more PA authors over here than PA has on its own message board... :tongue

Check out the other boards here, too, and you'll find a lot more than just PA talk.

James D. Macdonald · Aug 13, 2005

Rose colored glasses said:
I posted this in the newbie forum, but how do I know how many books I've sold?

There isn't any totally accurate way aside from the publisher's numbers, and you may have to audit them to get those.

There are dipsticks, though. One way is through Ingram, as Bonnie mentioned. The non-bookstore version is to call (615) 212-6803 with your ISBN in hand. (That version apparently doesn't (yet) have the phantom-100 books added to the total on-hand.)

If you know someone who has access to Bookscan, that's another dipstick. That's cash-register sales at about 60% of America bookstores.

The important thing to remember is that we have documented cases where PA's reported royalties are far lower than the known bookstore sales (see Mike Manno's case, for example). There are entirely too many dodgy things reported about PA's accounting practices to give me any faith in their basic honesty.

-------------------

You said a bit upstream: "I never got the chance to show my manuscript to either an agent or a publisher besides PA."

How did that work? Was PA the first and only place you submitted your work?

-------------------

As to the purpose of this topic -- it's a combination of things, partly because it's the only open PA topic here on this board. Everything gets rolled into one.

My main purpose is to keep people from signing up with PA to start with. Once they've signed that awful contract there isn't much anyone can do for them. To that end I try to concentrate on the misconceptions that you find on the PA board (where sometimes the kindest thing you can say is that you have a bunch of tenderfoots lost in the wilderness), and the false and misleading statements you find in PA's webpages and letters. So I talk about the reality of commercial publication, because no one at PA knows anything about it -- and that includes Willem, Larry, and Miranda. PublishAmerica goes out of its way to keep the truth from you.

Does this sometimes seem harsh to PA authors? I suppose it does. Most of them have made bad decisions. The ones I find hard to treat kindly are the ones who are actively leading others astray -- usually out of ignorance, true, but that doesn't reflect credit on them. (Dante put false counselors in the 8th circle of the Inferno.) Look at how many are talking about what it's like in the world of commercial publishing when they've never been commercially published in their lives and don't know anyone who has been.

HapiSofi · Aug 13, 2005

One of these years, I'm going to be included in a scamhunter list.

DaveKuzminski · Aug 13, 2005

HapiSofi said:
One of these years, I'm going to be included in a scamhunter list.

I already consider you an excellent scamhunter worthy of being listed.

Rose colored glasses · Aug 13, 2005

Jenna, thanks for the recap.

James, I have read that before about PA under paying royalties and it scares and frustrates me. It seems we are totally at the publisher's mercy on that issue.

As to my manuscript - I bought a book on how to get a book published, and it highly recommended having an agent. So I composed what I thought was a good query letter, and sent it out to over a dozen agents. I got back one form letter after another saying things such as they didn't feel they could market my book, or they didn't have ' sufficient enthusiasm" for the project. My confidence is kind of deflated right now and I wonder if they might have been right. When I contacted PA, they wrote back the next day accepting my book. I got through publishing very fast with them. I signed my contract the end of April and my book was in print by the end of July.

Anyway...It truly is a tough road for the person who is "green", and I had absolutely no experience at all with writing or publishing. In retrospect, I wish I had tried university presses or more specialized publishers. I didn't self publish because of the cost, yet I probably have spent almost that much anyway.

My frustration now is what has been said a thousand times - not having my book in stores, the high price of the books, etc etc. It would be redundant for me to go through all the issues that you already know. But I feel as if we are set up to fail. If major reviewers won't take us seriously, and writers guilds won't accept us, and book stores don't want to bother with our books, and readers hesitate to buy them because of the price, in addition to being hindered by any who have a prejudice against PA, then really, what hope do we have? :Shrug:

In the past few months there have been a few PA authors who have gotten some good breaks, so there is a glimmer of hope. But I feel like I'm carrying a two ton weight on my back trying to market this book. I don't want to be rich and famous, but I would like to make enough money to help pay the bills.

editing to add - Even though I knew about a few of the problems with PA when I signed, I figured if they would print my book for me, I could take it from there. At that point, I didn't realize all the difficult roadblocks I would face.

By the way, does anyone know about Lighting something

being an alternate publisher to PA? Someone on the boards found the European lists for our books through addall.com, and it had a lot of PA author books listed with this other publisher. I think that thread was pulled from the PA board, because I can't find it.

James D. Macdonald · Aug 13, 2005

Rose colored glasses said:
By the way, does anyone know about Lighting something being an alternate publisher to PA? Someone on the boards found the European lists for our books through addall.com, and it had a lot of PA author books listed with this other publisher. I think that thread was pulled from the PA board, because I can't find it.

Lightning Source International. They're a printer. PublishAmerica uses them to print their books, as do other publishers. Some of the on-line databases lists Lightning Souce as the publisher because that's who they actually order from. Other databases list PA books as coming from "AmErica House" (PA's old name when they were still a cash-up-front vanity house). This is just an artifact of how the databases are structured. The books are still PA books.

Incidentally, being listed somewhere that you find through addall.com doesn't mean anything other than that you have an active ISBN. It isn't a book on a shelf. Those on-line bookstores list every book nominally in print. You can order them -- and they'll turn around and order a copy from the publisher.

(Oh -- and a dozen agents isn't very many. If you'd struck out with two hundred agents, I'd say "Time to work on that query letter." Small press and university press are definitely places to explore, and generally don't require agents.)

Deleted member 42 · Aug 13, 2005

By the way, does anyone know about Lighting something

being an alternate publisher to PA? Someone on the boards found the European lists for our books through addall.com, and it had a lot of PA author books listed with this other publisher. I think that thread was pulled from the PA board, because I can't find it.[/QUOTE]

Lightening Source is a printer, one of several that PA uses. They aren't what you're looking for--they are fine printers, but they're not really set up for consumer accounts. You'd do better, if you really want to go that route, with a local printer, or lulu.com.

But if you've got a second book in mind, why not polish it, and try a real publisher? One that pays you and sells your book for you? One that edits your book, has professional designers, a sales staff, and will be able to get your book in bookstores and libraries, because it's a real publisher and wants to make money by selling your book to readers, stores, and libraries?

JennaGlatzer · Aug 13, 2005

One of these years, I'm going to be included in a scamhunter list.

I can't ID you as a long-time "pro" scamhunter if you choose to be anonymous... but I listed only three people anyway. You get props from me elsewhere.

postshy · Aug 14, 2005

As a pa "unhappy" author...

I cannot believe that we get ripped off on our royalties, insulted by our publisher, overcharged at times, and "harrassed" by a continuing stream of false advertisements (spam as far as I am concerned) and yet when we complain, we are seen as a bunch of "whiners" by newbie "happy" authors, who mostly have not yet received their royalties. SURPRISE! SURPRISE!

The Maryland authorities continue to ignore our complaints and yet, when we ask legitimate questions of PA's infamous AuthorSupport, WE (the authors) are either insulted, banned, or find ourselves in the embarassing position of having the law sent to OUR doors.

I feel your pain Sparhawk. I sympathize Rose coloured glasses. BUT, are we all so anxious to become authors that we completely overlook the fact that PA has gone from 4000 authors, in 2003, to 13,000 - 14,000 authors in just under two years? Miranda Prather, in a personalized e-mail, not by a form letter, accepted my book. Was I impressed? YES, more fool I. Had I been exposed to the current information on PA back in 2003, there is NO WAY I would have gone with PA. I would rather have remained unprinted.

Like other PA authors I am sure, I sometimes feel envy when Ann, Jenna, Unce Jim, Dave and others (who have been published) give advice. Many of us of have tried, and are still trying to become published, not printed, and it is galling to have these people tell us that it CAN happen. However, they are right. It is is OUR problem. I no longer take rejection personally; I write more, edit more, research more and keep trying.

There is absolutely no excuse, with the amount of information out there today about PA, for anyone to sign with a dishonest scammer whose only goal is to sell us our fifty or more books and then blow us away, while keeping the rights to our books for 7 years. Challenge this comment if you like PA, I have enough WRITTEN proof from myself and other Canadian authors to answer your challenge.

Of course, like Jean Marie and many others, if we do manage to SELL our own books and get them onto bookselves by our own hardwork, we then find that our publisher pulls the plug on us and cancels our contract. I thought their website tells us that is what we should do. Who are the liars, scammers and harrassers, the authors or PA? Think about it, newbies, and those who have yet to be caught in their 7-year stranglehold!

What more can the people on this forum, and others, do to get the message across?

Postshy/Roberta

Ken Schneider · Aug 14, 2005

Rose colored glasses/ said:
Is it simply meant to hurl insults and snarks in PA's direction?QUOTE]

Not at the Authors Rose. P.A., Snarky, in the utmost. I can be as snarky as I wish to them. They've cheated me, and lied to me, and wiggled around every question I tossed at them until I found out the truth on my own.

I also have a book with P.A. I wish I didn't. I assure you in time you will regret your involvement with them as well.

IF, you only want two author copies of your book, are happy selling it to your friends and family only, and, don't buy books from them, then that is a safe bet.

If you buy books from them because you find that they don't have store placement, then you have vanity published in reverse. They got your money on the back end after you've found that there is no other way to sell your books other than going door to door. Avon ring a bell? They make you an extension of there sales force and you can never recoup your money.

P.A. didn't do anything for any of us. They put out a crappy, high-priced rag, hoping you will buy copies that they know you will have trouble selling.

Tell you what. Get your book placed in one store with a steady trickle of copies being bought, say one or two per week.

I promise, they'll drop you like a hot rock. They don't want to sell books to the public and bookshops, they want to sell to you. You'll see.

With 14,000 authors on their roles, tell me why they've only sold almost one million books in six years? That's 71 books per author, and most have been sold to the author.

They are a scam and know it, I know it, and many other know it. It is the green writers who don't know this, and that is who this information is geared toward.

By the way Willy. How to slay a goliath book biz? Turning them on their ear?

As mentioned above, with sales of just under one million copies sold in six years, via 14,000 authors. You haven't slain anything. You haven’t even made it to the fight, and won’t. Many of the big five publishing companies have single authors who have sold more than a million copies in less time.

Really, at 19.95 per book, less a few mil to print them. You've cleared 15 mil.

Your 14,000 authors have made far, far less. As your book selling scams don't allow for royalties paid on author purchases, I would venture to guess that you've paid out little more than 500,000 dollars in royalties to 14,000 authors.

Care to give the numbers on how many author copies have been purchased in six years? How about how many sales have come via the mailing list provided by the authors? Okay, how about bookshop sales? Internet sales?

Of course you wouldn't give out those numbers, it would expose your scam.

You will get caught one day Willy, moeranda, and Larryo.

Something stinks in Frederick, and it is wafting its way from sea to shining sea.

Ken Schneider.

Jean Marie · Aug 14, 2005

The truth from an ex-PA author

postshy said:
Of course, like Jean Marie and many others, if we do manage to SELL our own books and get them onto bookselves by our own hardwork, we then find that our publisher pulls the plug on us and cancels our contract. I thought their website tells us that is what we should do. Who are the liars, scammers and harrassers, the authors or PA? Think about it, newbies, and those who have yet to be caught in their 7-year stranglehold!
Postshy/Roberta

Exactly!!!! Now, are there any newbies on the PAMB who would like to argue w/ the above quote? My book, Threads in Time, IS on the shelf at my local Borders and continues to sell. My contract was cancelled by PA on 15 July, 2005 due to NO sales. If you don't believe me, call Borders in Fairfield, CT and ASK. You don't have the phone number? No problem, here it is: 203-256-1619. In short, I don't want to hear/listen to any smart a** bulll sh** or snarky comments from newbies who haven't even gotten their proofs. Why? Because you don't know what you're talking about. I do. I have and continue to have personal experience with the biggest scam artists in publishing today. I'm sorry-Printers. I wish to God, someone had smacked me upside the head and prevented me from signing w/ the bastids.
That's why I sound angry and that's why I want to get the message across. I don't want anyone else to go through what myself and many others have gone through.

I am one of 5 who have received their rights back w/ no gag order. I did not request the termination of my contract. I have spoken to 2 reading groups and participated in the 1st author roundtable at Borders. It was the 1st such event in the country. It was a phenomenal opportunity for PA to step into the limelight. Did they? Duh! NO!!

Why was my contract cancelled? Because I didnt'/don't fit PA's business model. I never purchased (1) of my own books. Why? Gee, I wrote it , why in the world would I buy it???? That's what bookstores are for!! Bookstores are given a 45% discount and authors are given a 20% discount. You do the math and figure out who PA's going to make the most money from. I stink at math, but, I understand the numbers I just gave you. Oh, and authors cough up the money right away, whereas bookstores are invoiced. In other words, PA wants YOUR money immediately.

Go to some real book signings and mention you're published with PA; watch/listen to the reaction(s). If you still want to fling snarky comments in my direction (PAMB public/private) go ahead. Or, email me: [email protected]

FYI-I made bookmarks, contacted local newspapers and was interviewed. I made posters and plastered them everywhere along w/ bookmarks. I handed them out while I was walking my dog. I showed up at every bookstore in my area. I talked to every manager. I even climbed the B&N food chain all the way to corporate in NYC. In the end, Borders put my book on the shelf. They were getting ready to order more when PA terminated my contract.

If after reading this you still don't get it, then you're in unbelievably deep denial. Once you receive your 1st royalty check, you'll understand. So, bookmark this site and don't be embarrassed about posting.

Rose colored glasses · Aug 14, 2005

If you get out of your contract and you continue to sell your book, who prints it for you? Did you get a mainstream publisher to take the book?

I'm not going to give up on my book, because I beleive in it, and I know that it has an impact on the people who read it. But as far as my career goes, I think I have to write off Ellie as a bit of a loss, and a hard learning experience.

My only other question is : If I don't make a success of this book, will a mainstream publisher consider my next book? Isn't there a "magic number" around 2,000 that you must sell before a publisher takes you seriously?
As far as the posters on PA, just read the thread about making money. Everyone has different goals, and for many just being published is enough.

ResearchGuy · Aug 14, 2005

Rose colored glasses said:
...Isn't there a "magic number" around 2,000 that you must sell before a publisher takes you seriously?...

A commercial publisher (or legitimate agent) will take you seriously if you offer the prospect of a suitable manuscript. Learn what publishers and agents are looking for (do not send a financial guide to a publisher of cookbooks, for example) and craft an effective query letter or book proposal (depending on whether the preference is for query or proposal). You need to establish that what you are proposing or querying about is appropriate for that publisher, has a real market (large enough to justify publication, as demonstrated by sales of comparable books, for example), is timely, and has (in you) an author who is qualified to write the book. No "magic numbers" are involved -- only the prospect that you can produce a book that that publisher will find appropriate and timely for its list and that will sell well.

--Ken

postshy · Aug 14, 2005

Rose coloured glasses...

Just one more short comment from someone who has been there. For some, just being printed by PA is enough. However, commercial publishers do not consider PA a publishing credit. As I have been told by many on this Board and, sadly, must admit it to be true, being printed by PublisherAmerica can do you more harm than good.

Promote your book by all means; believe in your book. I believe in mine, but I do not wish to be associated with PublishAmerica in any shape or form. They are a blot on my escutcheon. Above all, remember that while you are promoting your book to death, PublishAmerica will be reaping the profits, not you. I assume that you plan on buying your book and selling it yourself since, if you do get it on bookstore shelves, your contract will probably be terminated. Read Jean Marie's comments about what she now has to do to keep her book visible since PA has cut her loose. PA is not the start to a successful career - you are!

postshy/Roberta

Jean Marie · Aug 14, 2005

Rose colored glasses said:
If you get out of your contract and you continue to sell your book, who prints it for you? Did you get a mainstream publisher to take the book?

PA is continuing to sell my book as well as several others who have had their contract cancelled. And, no, we won't receive royalties. It's stealing. Seems they're pretty good at it. My book remains listed with Lightening Source as available even though I've asked PA to tell LS to delete it from their list. To date, they've refused to comply. And that is per Patty Roberts @ LS. She's the customer service person who deals directly w/ PA. Lucky her. Per LS's contract w/ PA, she's unable to give me sales figures and/or dates of printing. She did, however, confirm that Ingram does have 11 copies on their shelf, even though PA has denied this several times via email.

PA says Ingrams and LS misinformed me, that Ingrams has (1) copy. Interesting how PA would infer that LS (whom they have a contract with) is lying. Hmm, we shall see what the royalty check says. Anyone who needs to reach Patty Roberts, her phone # is: 615-213-4478. It's a direct line.

The Old Neverending PublishAmerica Thread (Publish America)

Your Genial Uncle

Your Genial Uncle

Absolute sagebrush

Preditors & Editors

Preditors & Editors

wishes you happiness

Your Genial Uncle

Hagiographically Advantaged

Preditors & Editors

Your Genial Uncle

Deleted member 42

wishes you happiness

Absolute sagebrush

calm waters ahead

Resident Curmudgeon

calm waters ahead