The Old Neverending PublishAmerica Thread (Publish America)

realitychuck · Mar 8, 2005

Going over what's wrong with HB's remarks point by point would take hours. I'm just going to comment on what he got right.

underthecity · Mar 8, 2005

Going over what's wrong with HB's remarks point by point would take hours. I'm just going to comment on what he got right.

Quote:

Yeah, that's about it.
utc

James D. Macdonald · Mar 8, 2005

Susan Gable said:
>>>>Happy to oblige, HB, although I’ll have to leave the rebuttal to the professional writers on THIS board, cuz I'm laughing too hard to type.

Allow me.

I'm going to just address snippets at a time:

>>>Actually Terrance, the big houses won't allow a message board.

www.eHarlequin.com - not exactly a "message board" in the way PA has one, but still, it's a public forum where many Harlequin/Silhouette authors hang out with aspiring writers, readers, and editors. TBP at H/S do pay attention to what goes on there. (My editor knows when I've buckled down to work toward the deadline when my posting goes down. <G>)

On the science fiction side, there's Baen's Bar, but really, many authors don't hang out in messageboards by publisher -- they tend to hang out by genre. SFWA and HWA have messageboards, I know. I imagine that RWA and MWA have 'em too.

If authors are unhappy -- you'll hear from 'em. Look at PA. Unhappy authors aren't quiet. If Random House had a contingent of unhappy authors, the lack of a messageboard over at their publisher wouldn't shut 'em up.

>>>They know they have people who aren't happy because their books went nowhere. They waited two years or more after signing their contract before they saw their book.

Well, you know? When they aren't telling stupid jokes, or repeating gossip, or talking about politics, what the major topics of converstation are? Awards, advances, and reviews. Plus telling one another about markets. (For a professional writer, a "market" isn't Barnes&Noble or young Christians -- a market is a publisher.) And what are you doing for two or more years, even if it's true? (And I've seen some pretty good-sized delays...) You're writing your next book.

>>>Then it went to target areas to sit on a shelf. This doesn't always include their own home town. Then since the author can't promote all over the country all at once, the book gets pulled from the shelves. See, only the big dog names get the promotional coverage. So book store managers rip of the covers and send the covers back for credit. If enough book stores do this, the book goes into special order/out of print status.

Yes, mostly it's the big dogs who get the big PR. HOWEVER, I'm still in way better shape than ANY PA author because the book has been on the shelves all over North America (including my own home town) so by the time any of my books get stripped (and yes, it hurts to think of your book getting stripped) I've already sold way more copies than PA authors can ever hope for.

Click to expand...

There's promotions, and there's promotions. Everyone gets listed in the catalog, review copies, sales force push, and trade advertising. Publishers want to sell books. They don't rely on amateur talent to try to sell their books, either.

The natural state of any book is Out of Print. Check any best seller from the 'sixties. How many of them are in print? Books go out of print to make way for new books -- including yours and mine.

Books are stripped (except for trade books, which are whole-copy returnable). That's what makes it possible for a bookstore to take a chance on a new writer, and makes it possible for readers to find new books and new authors.

>>>So, if people will read their contract they will find that this is a pretty sweet deal. The ones that don't are the ones who complain publicly and make the rest of us look bad. They aren't showing consideration for their fellow authors, they're just venting.

They're showing plenty of consideration for their fellow authors - they're educating and enlightening them on the process. Shedding some light into the darkness.

Click to expand...

Sweet deal? Dude, you don't know. You want a sweet deal? Try a nice advance, and worry about writing your next book rather than running around trying to sell your last one. Sure, authors promote their own books, but not one-by-one.

SNIP

>>>Besides, authors from the big houses would never sit at a round table for too long anyway. It wouldn't be long before they were comparing book sales to determine who's right or wrong. Their egos have had way too much petting for anything as petty and trivial as a suggestion.

ROTFLMAO. Yes, we don't ever listen to suggestions. May I humbly submit that we are better at listening to suggestions since we get actual editorial input on our books? Suggestions, critiques, comments that mean we have to make changes, and sometimes compromise, and know how to negotiate with our editors.

Click to expand...

Look, I know of my own direct knowledge of writers from major houses who have been sitting at the round table for over a decade, since the early days of the messageboards on Prodigy and GEnie and CompuServe.

Hey, Jim, you wanna compare book sales? <snort> Yeah, hello, that's considered BAD MANNERS to do that. Why is it known that it's bad manners to ask co-workers or others how much money they make, but it's a common thing to ask a writer? Do you ask your doctor how much he makes? Or even the toll worker? Well, we don't ask each other, either. (Okay, unless it's your best friend, then you might ask. <G>)

Sure, I'll compare sales figures with you, Susan, to help each other find good markets. But to see who's "right"? I ask you! What gets folk a good reputation in the places where pro writers congregate is the same as it is everywhere -- does the person tell the truth, say helpful things, and sound reasonable?

(I'll tell you right now, my best sales ever have been with Harper. Sweet place to sell!)

Traditional publisher? Guy, listen. Get over your ego and try to sell your next book to a legitimate publisher. Find out for yourself the truth about being actually published.

keltora · Mar 8, 2005

XThe NavigatorX said:
Hey, Keltora. Is that your website that hosts the free version of Atlanta Nights? Could you tell us how many times it's been downloaded? ***

I've been spending more and more time lately writing, so the whole bikrpreacher incident went completely over my head. I understand there was a lot of stuff going on behind the scenes that I missed, so I'm not going to pretend to know everything. This is Jenna's board, and I respect that. But I am going to miss Bikr. She put a lot of unbridled enthusiasm and emotion into her posts, and I liked that about her. Cya, bikr!

Alas, I have no counter for the link I put up.

Embiid might be able to determine how often it has been downloaded from their site, but mine was just a link to a site to download from.

Sorry.

Laura J. Underwood (A Little Bit of Travis Tea--My ATLANTA NIGHTS can poke out your EYE OF ARGON any day!)

DRAGON'S TONGUE forthcoming from Meisha Merlin in the Summer of 2006. Preview a copy at http://www.embiid.net.

Susan Gable · Mar 8, 2005

One thing I wanted to add to my earlier post about what "real" publishers do and don't do - regarding the lag time for some books to hit the shelves.

The editing factor is one thing as Snarzler mentioned - it takes TIME to properly edit a book and prepare it for publication. I go through three different rounds of edits, and that doesn't count the self-editing I do before I submit. But another point is that the big publishers have a LIMITED number of slots for publication per month! They don't willy-nilly publish every single book they can get their hands on. They have a set number they do per month so they can devote the needed amount of attention to each book.

James D. Macdonald said:
I imagine that RWA and MWA have 'em too..

We have many e-mail Yahoo groups where we hang out and dish the dirt. RWA is open to anyone who is "seriously persuing a career in writing romance." So any unpub who wants to sit around the table with the authors in the trenches is welcome to join RWA and get a great education.

James D. Macdonald said:
There's promotions, and there's promotions. Everyone gets listed in the catalog, review copies, sales force push, and trade advertising. Publishers want to sell books. They don't rely on amateur talent to try to sell their books, either...

You're absolutely right, and I didn't stop to think about that. I am listed in the catalogs. I'm listed in the back of other books the month before. eHarlequin is a very active website, and my books are sold there, too. At Harlequin, writing category romance, I have built-in promotion based just on the line I write for. There are many readers who read the whole line, and they're very open to trying out new authors in the line.

James D. Macdonald said:
Sure, I'll compare sales figures with you, Susan, to help each other find good markets. But to see who's "right"? I ask you! What gets folk a good reputation in the places where pro writers congregate is the same as it is everywhere -- does the person tell the truth, say helpful things, and sound reasonable? ..

You're so sweet. I do know that many romance authors anonymously submit money figures to a lady who does a list every year so other writers can be informed about which publishers are doing really well by their writers. We do it not to brag or show "who's right?" (What the heck does that mean, exactly?) but to educate everyone, including ourselves. You can check it out here:

http://www.karenafox.com/money.htm

As for me, I've only published with one publisher. I can tell you that so far, what Harlequin marketing says about pregnant heroines is true - that book sold better than the others so far. <G>

Susan G.

MacAllister · Mar 8, 2005

Susan, does Harlequin still do the subscription sales, too? I remember my mom having a subscription for years and years to Superromances...now THAT'S putting the books right into the reader's freakin' hands...<g>

Deleted member 42 · Mar 8, 2005

In scholarly publishing in my particular field, authors participate vociferously in open to the public listserves, and meet face to face at conferences, and yes, we talk about sales, and advances, and which editors are fabulous to work with. I should mention that one of the things that's a bit different in scholarly publishing is that academic presses, in addition to having acquisition editors, also use either a "reader panel," or out side readers. These are people who have particular expertise in a given field, and read mss. a publisher thinks are worth publishing; they respond with a detailed critique. So there's also a lot of discussion about how to offer a critique that satisfies the publisher's needs and is helpful to the author.

In my other field of expertise, technical publishing of documentation and consumer computer books (publishers, by the way, pay advances in the thousands for books, as well as royalties, and books rarely take more than a year from proposal to appearance on bookshelves everywhere) authors also share information about publishers, editors, technical reviewers, and all the rest. I've had authors who submitted a book proposal and then decided not to write the book tell me what they were offered as an advance. Most people, in both communities, are helpful.

Susan Gable · Mar 8, 2005

MacAllister said:
Susan, does Harlequin still do the subscription sales, too? I remember my mom having a subscription for years and years to Superromances...now THAT'S putting the books right into the reader's freakin' hands...<g>

LOL - Yes, although the authors who've been with them for years haven't been happy with the huge declines in the bookclub sales over the years. Apparently the Super bookclub used to be MUCH bigger than it is now. (Also, just FYI, authors make less money on these sales because it costs money to "enroll" these readers, promo, etc. :Shrug:

)

Still, you're right - it's getting my books into the hands of readers with NO promo efforts from me. (Promo efforts from the company, though. They advertise the bookclubs, give out free samples, etc.) I like the bookclubs. :Hail:

Susan G.

James D. Macdonald · Mar 8, 2005

MacAllister said:
Susan, does Harlequin still do the subscription sales, too? I remember my mom having a subscription for years and years to Superromances...now THAT'S putting the books right into the reader's freakin' hands...<g>

I'm pretty sure that Harlequin (in its various imprints) is one of those famous top-twenty publishers that get over 90% of booksales.

Here you see an example of what a real publisher does for its books. Their goal is to sell books to thousands of people who couldn't pick the author out of a lineup.

And, unless memory plays me false, Harlequin accepts unagented/unsolicited manuscripts. (Like every other real publisher, they know that Nora Roberts won't live forever, and the next Nora Roberts is waiting for them in the slushpile.)

MacAllister · Mar 8, 2005

(Also, just FYI, authors make less money on these sales because it costs money to "enroll" these readers, promo, etc.

Even with the huge declines in enrollment, I'd venture a guess that the bookclub sales of a single title, alone, outsell ALL the PA titles in the same month, taken together.

Susan Gable · Mar 8, 2005

James D. Macdonald said:
And, unless memory plays me false, Harlequin accepts unagented/unsolicited manuscripts. (Like every other real publisher, they know that Nora Roberts won't live forever, and the next Nora Roberts is waiting for them in the slushpile.)

Yep. Most of the Harlequin/Sil imprints will take unagented submissions. MIRA doesn't, but all the category romance lines do. LUNA, the fantasy imprint, takes unagented submissions. Red Dress Ink, the chick lit imprint, will only take unagented query letters, not submissions. The Inspirational imprints/lines will also take unagented submissions. Anyone who's looking for exact information can go here:

http://www.eharlequin.com/cms/learntowrite/ltwArticle.jhtml?pageID=021101wu00001

Susan G.

Susan Gable · Mar 8, 2005

MacAllister said:
Even with the huge declines in enrollment, I'd venture a guess that the bookclub sales of a single title, alone, outsell ALL the PA titles in a the same month, taken together.

At a low number (not all the books in a month go to all the subscribers because the line went up from 4 per month to 6, and some subscribers still get only 4 books) it's at least 20,000. :snoopy:

So do you think that beats all the PA books combined for a month? I have no idea.

Susan G.

jackie106 · Mar 8, 2005

James D. Macdonald said:
There's promotions, and there's promotions. Everyone gets listed in the catalog, review copies, sales force push, and trade advertising. Publishers want to sell books. They don't rely on amateur talent to try to sell their books, either.

A few years back, I had an internship in the marketing dept at a small academic imprint. The marketing dept did nothing but create catalogues (twenty or thirty, organized by subject and updated twice a year), buy mailing lists, visit academic conferences, and send books to reviewers.

Lots of free books went out at no cost to the author. Books were sent to tiny academic journals, as well as big-name industry magazines like Publishers Weekly and Library Journal.

This was not Random House or Harper Collins and most of the authors were not household names, but the publisher still backed them when it came to book sales. Yes, some authors worked harder at promotion than others, but authors were not expected to strong-arm the sales manager at Borders into stocking their books.

Jackie

James D. Macdonald · Mar 8, 2005

Susan Gable said:
So do you think that beats all the PA books combined for a month? I have no idea.

It darn-near beats all PA books combined for a year.

Ed Williams · Mar 8, 2005

From the land of Poz, cometh this quote...

....from the Rin Tin Tin Man, H.B. Marcus...

Professionalism be damned, I've yet to see a professional writer on this board to dictate how a professional conducts themselves.

Huh?

Okay, after your laughter subsides, and for all you PA authors peeking in, especially the ones of you who fib and say you never look at our boards, here are the facts:

1. H.B. Marcus knows nothing about legitimate publishing as he has never been involved in it. Simply ask him how he knows what goes on in legitimate publishing houses, and then ask if that knowledge is first hand - it won't be.

2. Remember that y'all are listening to a man who's decision making process re publishing has been:

*Signed with a fee based literary agent.
*Signed with PA.
*Uses vanity radio to promote himself.

If y'all can look at that and feel this is the man to give you publishing advice, then I am the man you need to come to for hernia surgery...

P.S. Doesn't that hamdog sound great, it has all the major food groups in it! A hamdog, an ICEE - YUMMM!

karenranney · Mar 8, 2005

Oh please.

I've been an Avon author since 1997, and all I can say to HB is: Are you nuts?

Try www.avonauthors.com. A whole bunch of us PAY for that site separate from our publisher's web site. Yes, there is some moaning and complaining occasionally.

As for promotion - my books have been on the shelf for the entire period of time I've been with Avon. My 1997 and 1998 books were recently reprinted. My 1999 book was recently re-issued and made it to the top of the Walden Books chart. Every single one of my books is still in print.

Bottom line: My publisher wants to sell my books.

I don't have to.

DaveKuzminski · Mar 8, 2005

If I might suggest, since PA has an office in the UK, contact PA and have them reissue the check. If they don't, then let PA know that you'll report to British authorities PA's unwillingness to pay you in the proper currency.

underthecity · Mar 8, 2005

Appearance fee?

Having worked in radio, I have never heard of a station charging an appearance fee of any kind. I wonder what kind of station he called?

Radio stations I've been associated with don't charge their guests. They just come in and talk (or on the phone).

That's a new one.

utc

orraloon · Mar 8, 2005

Dollar Cheques

mistri said:
I think www.auctionpix.co.uk can exchange dollar and euro cheques for 95p (per batch of cheques). I know a lot of people use them for eBay auctions. It may still be too expensive for you, but could be worth looking into (it's usually a lot cheaper than the bank, at any rate).

Thanks mistri, this is very helpful.

James D. Macdonald · Mar 8, 2005

Bonnie Gibson said:
2)I contacted a major radio station and they wanted an 'appearance fee' of $2000! Why? Doesn't the station earn enough money as it stands?

Say what?

Can someone find out the name of this station?

Last time I was on the radio (WBZ, Boston) for an hour, no one asked me to pay anything. (I did give the DJ two copies of my latest book, but since my publisher had sent them to me for free, that wasn't money out of my pocket).

I've been on the radio a bunch of times, and no one has ever asked for a fee of any kind. (I only now learned that vanity radio existed.)

Is this another "ArtistFirst" deal?

Oh, wait ... here's Vanity TV: http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/001541.html

Kevin Yarbrough · Mar 8, 2005

"Professionalism be damned, I've yet to see a professional writer on this board to dictate how a professional conducts themselves."

That is because professional writers won't sign the PA contract. They know it is crap. They know what PA is all about. They won't see them on the board because they know what publishing really is and they don't want to take a step back by signing with PA.

As for the 200 author thing. Maybe one of us "unhappy bashers" should send in a story to jck. Tell what PA is all about, how they treat their authors, etc. God knows PA won't read it and it will go to press.

Renee, I'm 28 years old, but still look good.

Lola, you are funny you know that.

SeanDSchaffer · Mar 8, 2005

To Bonnie Gibson

Hi Bonnie,

You might remember me from the boards over at PA. I recently joined up here at these boards because I was impressed by the writing knowledge of the people here. I was reading up on your most recent posts on this particular thread, and if I could, I just wanted to say something to you.

On the 'private' board over there, I didn't really get the whole picture about your 'infocenter' comments. Now, having had the whole picture presented to me in your previous two posts here, I believe I'm beginning to understand why you said what you did.

Now I think I do know to some tiny extent what you're going through -- not because of anything I've experienced over there, but because of the obvious emotion, pain, and detailed information in your posts here. It is for this reason, Bonnie, that I here and now recant anything I said concerning you and your supposed lack of professionalism. I offer my deepest sympathies to you, and my most humble of apologies. I hope you'll forgive me for having posted on the Private Boards what I believe now to be a travisty on my own part.

Thanks for taking the time to read my post, Bonnie.

Ed Williams · Mar 8, 2005

Kevin Yarbrough said:
"
Renee, I'm 28 years old, but still look good.

Kev, I'm 48 years old, and I still lie sometimes, too...

Ed Williams · Mar 8, 2005

Uncle Jim, I need your assistance....

....would you please enlighten everyone on what it means if you send a query to a publisher and they ask to see your entire manuscript?

Moondancer · Mar 8, 2005

keltora said:
Alas, I have no counter for the link I put up.

Embiid might be able to determine how often it has been downloaded from their site, but mine was just a link to a site to download from.

Sorry.

If you have webstats, you might be able to get a decent "guesstimate" from the number of people hitting the download. It won't be highly accurate, but pretty close.

The Old Neverending PublishAmerica Thread (Publish America)

Hack Writer

Finestkind

Your Genial Uncle

Dreamer of dreams, teller of tales

Tired and worried.

Deleted member 42

Dreamer of dreams, teller of tales

Your Genial Uncle

Tired and worried.

Dreamer of dreams, teller of tales

Dreamer of dreams, teller of tales

Your Genial Uncle

Preditors & Editors

Finestkind

Your Genial Uncle

Will write for peace of mind

SeanDSchaffer