Okay so what exactly is "pagan" anyway?

[ECathers]

Perhaps "curses" is a thorny metaphor for sharp, pointy, stabby, owie-making death sticks.
And everyone knows a sharp tongue cuts the deepest

Awesome point! And what constitutes a "weapon"?

Maybe "owie-making death threats" is a physical weapon, maybe not. (Been a long time - more than 30 years since I read Tacitus or any other authors of the time, so my memory as well as my understandings can easily be occluded.) Does he describe "swords" "axes" "spears" or just "weapons"? Don't know myself and will have to look into it.

Some would say that my sarcastic wit might be classified as a weapon (even when I don't intend it so).

 

[Kylabelle]

At Winter Solstice, it's appropriate to say, "Heathens' Greetings!"

I did not know this one. Thanks, chickenma! Um, do you have a backstory for this, or source or something -- just because I am delighted and want to know more?

Oh so yes. This has always confused/intrigued me. Basically I see Metal/Wood as two facets of what "generic" pagans call Earth. But yes, damnit this messes up my geometry too.

Well, okay, no, for me there was a more complex overlap. But like I said, I don't recall quite. However, I let what I was doing go ahead and develop as it would.

And doesn't losing your notes by whatever means just suck the big one? I'm fortunate that my handwritten notes pretty much cemented the concepts in my brain. Doesn't work the same for me for stuff I type. Even so, I'm sure that I'd have a much more complete bit of info if they hadn't turned into ash. Argh!

To be honest, I'm over it, and my life has deleted so much hardcopy at different times, that was only one little bit... and the way I work evolved beyond those notes. Sometimes I've just had to leave stuff behind. And like you, take what was built into my brain by then, as what I needed to have.

I'd also love to hear from anyone else taking a sort of "direct exploration path" if you're lurking out there?

 

[ECathers]

Thanks folks for your comments about Drawing Dowm the Moon, and the recommendation of Spiral Dance.

Pretty sure I can speak for all of us old-time pagans in saying "welcome to the club" and an offer to help you tune your own research towards the directions you desire.

Feel free to ask lots of questions - it's the major way that people learn - make mistakes, etc. We all do all of that no matter how old or wise we purport ourselves to be.

 

[ECathers]

I did not know this one. Thanks, chickenma! Um, do you have a backstory for this, or source or something -- just because I am delighted and want to know more?



Well, okay, no, for me there was a more complex overlap. But like I said, I don't recall quite. However, I let what I was doing go ahead and develop as it would.

To be honest, I'm over it, and my life has deleted so much hardcopy at different times, that was only one little bit... and the way I work evolved beyond those notes. Sometimes I've just had to leave stuff behind. And like you, take what was built into my brain by then, as what I needed to have.

I'd also love to hear from anyone else taking a sort of "direct exploration path" if you're lurking out there?

Should you recall your previous insights, or find new ones, I would be happy to learn from you.

My particular path associates the Dragon/All with power of new understandings, brain neurons firing, etc. The Dragon's "secret" (okay not terribly secret nor oathbound) name is Ah! representing the sound of a baby's first breath, a sigh, the sound we make when we have an understanding, the sound we make when we make love. Ah's primary goals are connection/understanding.

I'm also interested in/fascinated with whatever I can learn of anyone else's process.

I apologize retrospectively/in advance for my own Wall O' Text. Having been without a computer/internet for most of 2 months straight, I'll admit that my present desire for knowledge / communication is nothing short of voracious.

 

[Deleted member 42]

Without having had time to read over the report yet, my question would be how did they know that the weapons were USED by the Druids/their allies and minions rather than by the Romans? The foundries on Mona may be an important clue of course. Is there evidence that they were weapons foundries?

I was largely responding to this:

In AD 61, Gaius Suetonius Paulinus, Roman Governor of Britain (may he forever rot -- yes, we're still pissy over it) ordered the razing of the Isle of Mona (Anglesey). This was a Druid stronghold. Traditionally, no weapons were allowed on the island, as they were felt to disrupted the sacred peace. Druids traditionally also traveled without benefit of weapons and it was a great crime to harm one.

There are scads of references to druids bearing arms in the Táin and the Remscéla, and a few references in Classical texts. Cathbad the druid, the putative father of King Chonchobar a prominent figure in the life of Cúchulainn. The druid Uiscias wielded the talismanic sword Freagarthach, once the sword of Nuada Airgetlám, king of the Tuatha dé Dannan.

There are the Classical references in Diodorus Siculus and Strabo to druids with swords striking sacrificial victims, which I'd be willing to shrug off, except for the evidence of Lindow Man and other bog bodies.

Also suggestive are burials like the "Deal Warrior," in the British Museum, and about to be included in one of the new Exhibit halls.

There's the reference in Pliny to druids gathering mistletoe with a golden sickle on the sixth night of the lunar cycle, followed by a ritual sacrifice of two bulls. There are some problems with his descriptions, but Lindow Man had grains of mistletoe pollen in his stomach, possibly part of his ritual last meal, a simple grain and seed cake that seems to have been part of a larger ritual.

Lindow Man is a potential clue; clearly aristocratic, and clearly bearing the signs of regular weapons training in terms of skeletal-muscle development, but no indication that he had engaged in manual labor. There's some question as to whether he was an experienced horseman, and I don't think it's really been settled.

He appears to have been ritually killed in a method associated with druidic sacrifice, as in applied to those of the druid caste, and overseen by those of the druid caste. He may have been a volunteer selected by virtue of a lottery involving the oat cake he ate; the remnants in his stomach suggest it was deliberately scorched on one section.

Was he merely an aristocratic warrior, or was he a member of the druid/filidh caste? I think it's worth asking the question, though I'm not quite convinced by Dr. Anne Ross's exceedingly specific chronology and assertions. I don't think we know enough to know what he did in life, though I do believe he was ritually sacrificed.

Mind, I'm not any sort of religious anything; I generally consider scholarship my religion, but I am a Celticist, and I do frequently work with various Neo Pagan scholars particularly in terms of making sense of ritual references in Celtic texts.

 

[Kylabelle]

Should you recall your previous insights, or find new ones, I would be happy to learn from you.

Well, one bit that floated toward the surface since last post is that Wood, in the Chinese system, has qualities of Fire, as well as Earth, in the Western divisions. So, that's the first upwelling of why a simple correspondence is problematic.

And, Metal? Gosh did that ever flummox me! I mean, Metal?

I apologize retrospectively/in advance for my own Wall O' Text. Having been without a computer/internet for most of 2 months straight, I'll admit that my present desire for knowledge / communication is nothing short of voracious.

I go nuts when I am without internet for a few hours. I settle down by about day two, but uncomfortably so. Two months would do unknown things to my sanity, no doubt.

Mind, I'm not any sort of religious anything; I generally consider scholarship my religion, but I am a Celticist....

Quoting this just because it made me smile so big. The kind of thing I bow to.

Maybe Truth is mine? Religion, that is. But no, I don't have religion. I have investigation, and experience, and practice.

 

[Foinah]

My particular path associates the Dragon/All with power of new understandings, brain neurons firing, etc. The Dragon's "secret" (okay not terribly secret nor oathbound) name is Ah! representing the sound of a baby's first breath, a sigh, the sound we make when we have an understanding, the sound we make when we make love. Ah's primary goals are connection/understanding.

I see influences of both Jörmungandr and Uroboros --
Jörmungandr is the World Serpent -- great sea serpent/dragon that surrounds Midgard (the world actually) and therefore protects Yggdrasil (the tree of life). While Uroboros (Oroboros) is the dragon eating his own tail signifying continuation and rebirth. The cycling through of connectivity and understanding of things from the beginning.

 

[ECathers]

I was largely responding to this:



There are scads of references to druids bearing arms in the Táin and the Remscéla, and a few references in Classical texts. Cathbad the druid, the putative father of King Chonchobar a prominent figure in the life of Cúchulainn. The druid Uiscias wielded the talismanic sword Freagarthach, once the sword of Nuada Airgetlám, king of the Tuatha dé Dannan.

There are the Classical references in Diodorus Siculus and Strabo to druids with swords striking sacrificial victims, which I'd be willing to shrug off, except for the evidence of Lindow Man and other bog bodies.

Also suggestive are burials like the "Deal Warrior," in the British Museum, and about to be included in one of the new Exhibit halls.

There's the reference in Pliny to druids gathering mistletoe with a golden sickle on the sixth night of the lunar cycle, followed by a ritual sacrifice of two bulls. There are some problems with his descriptions, but Lindow Man had grains of mistletoe pollen in his stomach, possibly part of his ritual last meal, a simple grain and seed cake that seems to have been part of a larger ritual.

Lindow Man is a potential clue; clearly aristocratic, and clearly bearing the signs of regular weapons training in terms of skeletal-muscle development, but no indication that he had engaged in manual labor. There's some question as to whether he was an experienced horseman, and I don't think it's really been settled.

He appears to have been ritually killed in a method associated with druidic sacrifice, as in applied to those of the druid caste, and overseen by those of the druid caste. He may have been a volunteer selected by virtue of a lottery involving the oat cake he ate; the remnants in his stomach suggest it was deliberately scorched on one section.

Was he merely an aristocratic warrior, or was he a member of the druid/filidh caste? I think it's worth asking the question, though I'm not quite convinced by Dr. Anne Ross's exceedingly specific chronology and assertions. I don't think we know enough to know what he did in life, though I do believe he was ritually sacrificed.

Mind, I'm not any sort of religious anything; I generally consider scholarship my religion, but I am a Celticist, and I do frequently work with various Neo Pagan scholars particularly in terms of making sense of ritual references in Celtic texts.

Great stuff. Here's what I was told other than any "we didn't have weapons stuff," that only AFTER Mona did our order make a point of having swords, athames, sickles and weapons in general close to/on our altars so that we could deal with any future threats.

Sickles and such are much an agricultural tool. Having owned an antique sickle, it was sharp and potentially dangerous if folks held relatively still, but not equal to the threat of a sword. The issue of reach is a biggie here. Used for ritual sacrifice? Absolutely.

But once again, having things "proved wrong" doesn't threaten me on any emotional level, the more knowledge the better even when it contradicts what I was taught.

There is certainly evidence of warriors such as Nuada etc wielding swords. But if Druids were running around with swords too, so be it.

Re Lindow man and so on, pretty obvious he may have been a willing sacrifice. Fascinating nonetheless.

Keep it coming!

 

[ECathers]

Well, one bit that floated toward the surface since last post is that Wood, in the Chinese system, has qualities of Fire, as well as Earth, in the Western divisions. So, that's the first upwelling of why a simple correspondence is problematic.

And, Metal? Gosh did that ever flummox me! I mean, Metal?




I go nuts when I am without internet for a few hours. I settle down by about day two, but uncomfortably so. Two months would do unknown things to my sanity, no doubt.



Quoting this just because it made me smile so big. The kind of thing I bow to.

Maybe Truth is mine? Religion, that is. But no, I don't have religion. I have investigation, and experience, and practice.

Oh yes - metal = fire + earth or wood = fire + earth? O those tricky Chinese they make me crazy!

There's just something off kilter here with my basic beliefs that is so subtle as to make me confused. And yet I'm convinced that if I "get it" I'll have a far deeper understanding. Both metal and wood feel like they are part of our much simpler, 4 element system.

Truth = religion, yep so totally there with you. I don't care if my own personal understandings are proven wrong/right, and I have no ego in that direction. Being proven wrong just gives room to explore new theories.

I just want to learn, learn, learn. Knowledge is my brain-food.

 

[ECathers]

I see influences of both Jörmungandr and Uroboros --
Jörmungandr is the World Serpent -- great sea serpent/dragon that surrounds Midgard (the world actually) and therefore protects Yggdrasil (the tree of life). While Uroboros (Oroboros) is the dragon eating his own tail signifying continuation and rebirth. The cycling through of connectivity and understanding of things from the beginning.

'
You're so absolutely on point here that it's challenging to add any commentary other than "yup."

ETA: Our path has a bucketload of lore and points and such that go along with, but the basic and obvious principle is already there so there's not much for me to say w/o going into deep specifics, creation myth etc, none of which you need for your own path.

 

[kuwisdelu]

I see influences of both Jörmungandr and Uroboros --
Jörmungandr is the World Serpent -- great sea serpent/dragon that surrounds Midgard (the world actually) and therefore protects Yggdrasil (the tree of life). While Uroboros (Oroboros) is the dragon eating his own tail signifying continuation and rebirth. The cycling through of connectivity and understanding of things from the beginning.

Wow, mangaka must love old pagan stuff. I already knew Ouroboros, but the rest of those names I know from anime.

 

[evilrooster]

Regarding the Bibles, I've never heard of those particular ones. Very interesting. Okay, blows the particular wording change on James out of the water. Good deal. As for his alleged aunt the witch, obviously more research is required.

I am WAY not a Biblical scholar. My husband is/was and his favored text is Strong's Concordance, but it's very possible that we didn't bother fact-checking this together. I know that my root of pharmakopia (sp?) comes from him, but that's about it.

Let me add a bit more in about that, then.

The Septuagint (Greek translation of the old testament, 3rd century ADish) has "pharmakos", which can mean a poisoner, a wizard, or a sorcerer. That's an old, old word; Homer uses it to mean "magical healer", but the meaning appears to have drifted to the sinister during the Classical era. (The ordinary Classical term for doctor is "iatros", but don't expect him to do anything supernatural.)

The Vulgate (the Latin Bible in use from the 4th century until the wave of vernacular Bible translations much later on) has "maleficus", evildoer.

 

[Gavin Aendless]

It's not city ward as much as plot by the way; hence the cognate relationship with page; one might do well to compare the Latin pagus with Old English hide (s.v. the third definition).

That's an interesting point, and I also think that the term 'peon' may be relevant to the discussion also. On the other hand, if we accept early Christianity as primarily an urban religion in character and ambition, the locals initially encountered by the missionaries would not necessarily have had 'plots'.

I understand to some extent the animus against Hutton (I don't really have a dog in that fight, personally), but Pierre Chuvin's 'A Chronicle of the Last Pagans' impressed me.

 

[Gavin Aendless]

The Septuagint (Greek translation of the old testament, 3rd century ADish) has "pharmakos", which can mean a poisoner, a wizard, or a sorcerer. That's an old, old word; Homer uses it to mean "magical healer", but the meaning appears to have drifted to the sinister during the Classical era.

You may mean "pharmakeia" in that context (one who makes use of drugs and poisons.) However, "pharmakos" is very, very relevant here also: from the same root, meaning a scapegoat - in the Greek religious context, someone to be ritually sacrificed or cast out for the good of the community during periods of instability and unheaval. Again, the association with both healing and cursing comes into play. It is almost as if acting as a scapegoat is one of the archetypal functions of the witch. Something that is very useful to know if writing fiction about witches and witchcraft, as I am.

 

[evilrooster]

You may mean "pharmakeia" in that context (one who makes use of drugs and poisons.) However, "pharmakos" is very, very relevant here also: from the same root, meaning a scapegoat - in the Greek religious context, someone to be ritually sacrificed or cast out for the good of the community during periods of instability and unheaval. Again, the association with both healing and cursing comes into play. It is almost as if acting as a scapegoat is one of the archetypal functions of the witch. Something that is very useful to know if writing fiction about witches and witchcraft, as I am.

The precise text is: φαρμακους ου περιποιησετε.

φαρμακους (pharmakous) is the accusative plural of φαρμακος (pharmakos), which is defined primarily as a poisoner, wizard, or sorcerer and secondarily as a scapegoat. My impulse, based on the time-frame of the (relatively few) sources for the secondary definition (all much older than the Septuagint), is to take the primary definition as the assumed meaning, but I am not an expert in this branch of exegesis.

(But if you're looking for an overlap of witches and scapegoats, the fact that it's the same word in Greek is definitely of interest. I'd say there's a sound conflation in the Classical period; I just have my doubts about later history.)

Note that φαρμακεια (pharmakeia) is, depending on accent position, either the use of drugs/poisons/remedies, or the feminine form of the European nuthatch. Assuming we mean the former , it doesn't refer to a person, but to the art itself (as do many Greek words ending in -keia). It is, however, not the word in that particular passage.

I think the Greek relationship with drugs (from remedies to poisons all in one word!) and the people who administer them (pharmakos vs iatros) is interesting and complicated. It seems to me that it's tied to the transition from a Homeric vision of the universe (where the gods just pop by and meddle) to the Fifth-century beginnings of a more empirical perception of the world. Figuring out what to ignore, and sometimes throwing out the wrong stuff...

But I'm not a Pagan. I don't want to intrude in this conversation, apart from adding a few bits of philological grist to the philosophical mill.

 

[Gavin Aendless]

φαρμακους (pharmakous) is the accusative plural of φαρμακος (pharmakos), which is defined primarily as a poisoner, wizard, or sorcerer and secondarily as a scapegoat. My impulse, based on the time-frame of the (relatively few) sources for the secondary definition (all much older than the Septuagint), is to take the primary definition as the assumed meaning, but I am not an expert in this branch of exegesis.

(But if you're looking for an overlap of witches and scapegoats, the fact that it's the same word in Greek is definitely of interest. I'd say there's a sound conflation in the Classical period; I just have my doubts about later history.)

This is very useful, thank you!

I don't think there was any conscious association between witches and sacrificial scapegoats later than the Classical period, although I think it is very interesting, and revealing, reading from Jean Bodin's infamous 'De la Demonomanie des Sorcieres'. He makes it very clear that the primary rationale for hunting and executing witches, in his mind, was to appease divine anger. He quotes Numbers 25 to make his case.

With that in mind, I would make the case that the witch-hysteria of the Middle Ages, and the ritualized behaviour surrounding the trials and executions, was an unconscious impulse to engage in human sacrifice. (Then again, following that line of reasoning, capital punishment as practised in modern USA might be seen in similar fashion, which may not be a popular observation to make.)

Thinking about the connection between pharmakos and pharmakeia, I wonder if medicine/poison is not to be seen in a wider sense than the merely physical - roots, powders, and so on. Indigenous cultures think of 'medicine', and those that deal in it, as part of the preternatural world - the shaman/witchdoctor being the one who would venture into that Otherworld *for the good of the community*. Perhaps this explains (to some extent) the dual-meaning of pharmakos as you've outlined it?