The Truth about Publishing

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pianoman5

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Here's a useful page that summarises rather neatly the fiction writer's place in the publishing industry, and the monetary realities of the business.

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~irvinei/publishing.html

While written from an Australian perspective, its truths are universal. It includes also figures for the US, UK, and other markets.

It's a sobering read for those whose fantasies extend beyond their texts, but worth reading nonetheless.
 

Ace

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Don't try and shove your optimism down our throats. :D
 

Savannah907

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And we want to become writers because? ???

LOL, well, none-the-less, we will write, won't we? And we will submit and some of us will even succeed.
It's good to know what we are in for, though...and yes, it is a tough business.
 

Liam Jackson

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The truth may be ugly, but it's still the truth. In my limited experience, the article seems valid.

I'm a rookie and I sure as hell don't pretend to have all the answers. As the old saying goes, I'm just now learning the right questions. If we (new writers) take anything from this article, it's this:

Writitng may be the love of your life, but it's also WORK. Writing isn't a shortcut to fame and wealth. Generally, the only people who are guaranteed money and noteriety from writing already have both.

Making a living from writing is by God, roll up your sleeves and prepare to get down-and-dirty WORK. But if you have a "damn the torpedoes and full speed ahead" attitude, then do it. Challenge the odds and go for it. But do it to the best of your ability and don't settle for a 90% effort. Even then there's no promise of success, but if you don't give it everything you have, there's nearly a 100% chance of failure.

Thanks for posting, PianoMan5.
 

clara bow

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That article was a good reality check. Thanks for posting the link.
 

E.G. Gammon

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Personally, I don't see any problem having high expectations. I'm not going to lower my expectations just because the odds are against me. It's like going in for a job interview. Go in with a "realistic" attitude knowing that there are 40 other people in the waiting room and that your chances are horrible at getting the job, you'll go in unconfident and unenthusiatic and you'll fail. But if you walk in with confidence and hope, you still may not get the job, but you'll know that you gave it all you had. Dwelling on how hard it is to get into the writing business will only affect your writing because you'll think "Well, what's the point if my chances suck?" Right now I'm thinking "My novel series will be published and people will get to experience the story I have been developing for over seven years." I'm writing the best I can, I know it. And I get excited because I know that the positive possibilites are amazing. What's the point of having dreams if we dwell on the fact that the odds may not be good that they will come true? Let us dream. If we fail, we fail. But we fail knowing we gave it all we had.
 
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Liam Jackson

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<<<But we fail knowing we gave it all we had.>>>

Therein lies the key.

I looked at his intent from a little different perspective. I don't believe the author was trying to dissuade serious writers or cripple anyone's dream. I'm betting that he knows the serious writer can't be dissuaded. Discouraged at tmes, yes. Talked out of giving it a sincere shot, not a chance.

If the information he provided is factual, there's no sense blaming the messenger. Just take what is useful from that article and send the rest to "file 13." To be forewarned is to be forearmed. Just my take.

LJ
 
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Mistook

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Look, just read the first paragraphs of every one of Ian Irvine's opening chapters, and you'll understand why he's so bitter. He's a hack! He's not much better than Travis Tea.

"Pain! More pain!"

I picked out several passive voice sentences in the opening paragraphs of his books, which all open with formulaic suck-drama - dead babies, burning cities, purple prose. I'm frankly amazed this guy ever got published at all!


Anybody care to share a nightmare experience trying to get through one of his books? Because this is one of those entrenched hacks who's very existance on the market should give us all great - wonderful hope of getting published.


I've seen better openings in "Share Your Work" - seriously! And that's not even the slush-pile so what gives? Why is this published man whining about the fact that he won an award and discouraging everybody else from ever getting into the biz?

In the much vaunted first chapter of "Mutah" we have a passive in the first paragraph, followed by tons of cheep narrative, and learn that the MC's adopted sister is dead (of course she's dead) and that sister's name is...

"Little Orphan Haani" - (C) Irvin Lavine, Matah


COME ON! If i tried to get away with something like that, five authors on this site would be whipping my butt into the cold ground! Thats ridiculous!


And what kind of drugs are they smoking at the publishing house if they let this stuff through, but for some reason won't ever, ever, ever, give your manuscript a read.

Give me a huge, frikken, frakken, mullah farking BREAK!
 
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pepperlandgirl

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Due to Mistook's post, I went and checked out his first chapters. I saw this line first.

[font=&quot]It was the final night of the Graduation Telling, when the masters and students of the College of the Histories at Chanthed told the Great Tales that were the very essence of human life on Santhenar.[/font][font=&quot]

ARGH!!!!!! The masters and students of the College of Histories at Chanthed told the Great Tales, the very essense of human life on Santhenar, on the final night of the Graduation Telling

Any book that begins with a sentence I need to edit--and indeed, can edit with 10 seconds worth of thought--is a book I will not bother with.


[/font]
 
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pepperlandgirl

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I did, and the sentence was still passive.
 

Mistook

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pepperlandgirl said:
Due to Mistook's post, I went and checked out his first chapters. I saw this line first.

[font=&quot]It was the final night of the Graduation Telling, when the masters and students of the College of the Histories at Chanthed told the Great Tales that were the very essence of human life on Santhenar.[/font][font=&quot]

ARGH!!!!!! The masters and students of the College of Histories at Chanthed told the Great Tales, the very essense of human life on Santhenar, on the final night of the Graduation Telling

Any book that begins with a sentence I need to edit--and indeed, can edit with 10 seconds worth of thought--is a book I will not bother with.


[/font]


Not to mention - who's POV is this? Why are we being told and not shown? What's with the out-world monikers that take 20 minutes to decipher a proper pronunciation? And... as they are so fond of asking, anywhere you go with your manuscript... WHO CARES?

Seriously, why am I breaking my back trying to satisfy the critics when this stuff has made it to print? I'm not an idiot, I know this must have passed through 20 or 30 opinionated professionals, with several re-writes before market. I can see the penguin on the cover!

So why is such a lucky barstool whining about how unfair things are in the industry?

More or less, he's proven that you don't have to even be a writer to get a book in print.
 
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pianoman5

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Truth, the unwelcome stranger

Well, he's published at least a dozen books, with respected publishers, so it suggests that either the great unwashed public has tastes that differ from your own, or that they are not quite as sensitive to the use of the word 'was' as some putative writers are. (I wouldn't read his stuff myself. The silly names put me off straight away.)

I'm not sure where you get the idea that he's bitter, Mistook. He makes the point at the top of his article that he's not whingeing in any way. He has merely come to terms with the fact that publishing is a high-risk, low-margin business, and that that is the reason why they are leery about taking a chance with any writer who doesn't have what it takes to succeed and make money for all concerned. As he says, "successful authors work with their publishers, not against them. After all, both parties want the same thing: to sell truckloads of books." (Agents, too, share in this common dream.)

The article contains more facts than opinions, and one could glean an almost identical set of insights from Uncle Jim's esteemed thread. It's just that when they're laid out end-to-end they make a somewhat morbid read for anyone whose hopes are not tempered with a healthy dose of realistic expectation.

Should one be positive? Of course. That is a philosophy for life, not just writing. Should one kid oneself about one's own capacity to write commercially successful prose? Well, that's a matter of personal choice. Self- delusion is one of mankind's most powerful and endearing features. For some reason, it expresses itself strongly in the field of writing, more so than in most other facets of existence, perhaps because it is so intensely personal.

(The only other comparable activity I can think of is singing. As a play-anything-you-like-in-any-key-by-ear pianist I am often called upon to accompany would-be singers at gatherings, and I am constantly amazed by how many talent-free persons are eager to demonstrate their lack of skill to a captive audience. The world is full of microphone snatchers. It may not surprise you to hear that they always want to sing My Way.)

What are the odds of convincing an agent or publisher that your work is worth their risking several tens-of-thousands of dollars and possibly their career? One in a hundred? That seems to be the generally agreed figure, roughly. Is that a reason to slash your wrists in despair? Nah. It's simply a reminder that you'd better be bloody good at what you do (and consummately professional in every sense) to improve your chances of being selected from a ceiling-high pile of dross, interspersed with some rare examples of quality comparable to your own scribblings.

Does it hurt for Ian Irvine to lay out the dismal statistics for our perusal? Well, it would if he had an unworthy motive, but as a fellow Aussie, a breed renowned for its cheerful optimism combined with an intolerance of fatuous, ego-stroking, worthless, have-a-nice-day bullsh*t, I'm prepared to give him credit for just wanting to tell it like it is.
 

Mistook

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pianoman5 said:
Well, he's published at least a dozen books, with respected publishers, so it suggests that either the great unwashed public has tastes that differ from your own, or that they are not quite as sensitive to the use of the word 'was' as some putative writers are. (I wouldn't read his stuff myself. The silly names put me off straight away.)

I'm not sure where you get the idea that he's bitter, Mistook. He makes the point at the top of his article that he's not whingeing in any way. He has merely come to terms with the fact that publishing is a high-risk, low-margin business, and that that is the reason why they are leery about taking a chance with any writer who doesn't have what it takes to succeed and make money for all concerned. As he says, "successful authors work with their publishers, not against them. After all, both parties want the same thing: to sell truckloads of books." (Agents, too, share in this common dream.)

The article contains more facts than opinions, and one could glean an almost identical set of insights from Uncle Jim's esteemed thread. It's just that when they're laid out end-to-end they make a somewhat morbid read for anyone whose hopes are not tempered with a healthy dose of realistic expectation.

Should one be positive? Of course. That is a philosophy for life, not just writing. Should one kid oneself about one's own capacity to write commercially successful prose? Well, that's a matter of personal choice. Self- delusion is one of mankind's most powerful and endearing features. For some reason, it expresses itself strongly in the field of writing, more so than in most other facets of existence, perhaps because it is so intensely personal.

(The only other comparable activity I can think of is singing. As a play-anything-you-like-in-any-key-by-ear pianist I am often called upon to accompany would-be singers at gatherings, and I am constantly amazed by how many talent-free persons are eager to demonstrate their lack of skill to a captive audience. The world is full of microphone snatchers. It may not surprise you to hear that they always want to sing My Way.)

What are the odds of convincing an agent or publisher that your work is worth their risking several tens-of-thousands of dollars and possibly their career? One in a hundred? That seems to be the generally agreed figure, roughly. Is that a reason to slash your wrists in despair? Nah. It's simply a reminder that you'd better be bloody good at what you do (and consummately professional in every sense) to improve your chances of being selected from a ceiling-high pile of dross, interspersed with some rare examples of quality comparable to your own scribblings.

Does it hurt for Ian Irvine to lay out the dismal statistics for our perusal? Well, it would if he had an unworthy motive, but as a fellow Aussie, a breed renowned for its cheerful optimism combined with an intolerance of fatuous, ego-stroking, worthless, have-a-nice-day bullsh*t, I'm prepared to give him credit for just wanting to tell it like it is.


Everything you said is predicated upon the presumption that a writer has to be good to make it. Any college freshman can poke holes in Irvine's writing, and I doubt you'll find an enthralled fan of his who doesn't suffer from brain damage.

Yes, we're all willing to work hard, and to work again with the publishers, but if Irvine can sell even half a truck-load of books... I think most of my sweat is going to come from rewriting active openings into passive, and throwing out dialogue in favor of cheep exposition. I'll probably bite off a few nails as I remove demensions from my main character to keep with market expectations of a cardboard lead with no personality.

And despite any caveats, he's being despirately negative about the whole "truth" of publishing. Just look at his headers. Nothing encouraging, only warnings about the bad, scary industry, always looking to steal your thunder, remaindering your books after you get a cheesy award, how dare they?

Just because somebody's published doesn't mean they're good. Just because a published author was good once, doesn't mean they're still good. What've you done for me lately? That's the market, right?

I listen to UJ, JAR, and the rest because I know they can write. This Irvine guy's full of bull.
 
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pianoman5

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It's an interesting word, "good".

I'm sure we'd all prefer that all published work was good, and well worth our money. That's the judgement call publishers make. Their brief is to consistently deliver desired value to the market, or else they will surely fail.

I'm sure also that most of us could pick holes in Mr Irvine's books, or anyone else's for that matter; but he makes the point that his books have been properly edited by people who know what they're on about, so who are we to question their ability? We can rail from the sidelines, write scathing critiques, and vote with non-relinquishment of our own hard-earned dollars, but so long as people are buying them, who gives a rat's what we think?

Books only have to be 'good enough' for their market slot, not potential Pulitzer/Booker Prize winners (some of which have been almost unreadable). That quality varies considerably from genre to genre, of course, but if Mr Irvine's work is at all representative of the Fantasy genre, it suggests perhaps that a fairly generous latitude applies in it, as long as the conventions are observed.

I take your point, mistook, that his headers are not redolent with hope. But the point of the article is neither to spread hope, nor despair, simply to highlight the ironies that may beset an apparently successful writer. Nor is he criticising the publisher's decision to remainder a book, since he clearly understands that the publisher's resultant pain is even greater than that of the writer (who can gleefully hang on to his advance.)
 

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pianoman5 said:
It's an interesting word, "good".

I'm sure we'd all prefer that all published work was good, and well worth our money. That's the judgement call publishers make. Their brief is to consistently deliver desired value to the market, or else they will surely fail.

I'm sure also that most of us could pick holes in Mr Irvine's books, or anyone else's for that matter; but he makes the point that his books have been properly edited by people who know what they're on about, so who are we to question their ability? We can rail from the sidelines, write scathing critiques, and vote with non-relinquishment of our own hard-earned dollars, but so long as people are buying them, who gives a rat's what we think?

Books only have to be 'good enough' for their market slot, not potential Pulitzer/Booker Prize winners (some of which have been almost unreadable). That quality varies considerably from genre to genre, of course, but if Mr Irvine's work is at all representative of the Fantasy genre, it suggests perhaps that a fairly generous latitude applies in it, as long as the conventions are observed.

I take your point, mistook, that his headers are not redolent with hope. But the point of the article is neither to spread hope, nor despair, simply to highlight the ironies that may beset an apparently successful writer. Nor is he criticising the publisher's decision to remainder a book, since he clearly understands that the publisher's resultant pain is even greater than that of the writer (who can gleefully hang on to his advance.)


"Who are we to question their ability?"

We're the starving nobodies who grind our noses off trying to avoid shotty sentences and blocks of harf-arsed, exposition. We're the ones who actually beleive it when they tell us not to be clumbsy and confusing with descriptions, nor pedantic.

I'm sorry to have to be so combative, but according to every dire warning, and sage bit of council I've ever read on this here website, Irvine's manuscripsts should have been thrown into the shredder before any slush-veteran ever finished the first page.

The opening chapters of every single work violate every rule we are taught to hold dear, and violate common taste, ten ways to Sunday. And he doesn't violate convention in a clever, or rebellious way - he just plain sucks.

I don't begrudge the man his line of novels. More power to him, but if he hasn't finaggled a Pulitzer yet, I'm not exactly weeping over here. This isn't even about "fine literature". We're talking - remedial math, and this guy sucks.

I've heard of teachers passing flunk students, but this is ridiculous! What's going on? That's my question.

If he satisfies some carp, genre formula, then let's all just be forking honest and admit you don't need skill, all you need is a horrible rendition of a formula story with a proven market, and the professionals will dummy it up to market.

If that's not the truth, then somebody tell me what's going on, because I'm putting in a lot of hours here, actually trying to write.
 
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pepperlandgirl

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It's an interesting word, "good".

I'm sure we'd all prefer that all published work was good, and well worth our money. That's the judgement call publishers make. Their brief is to consistently deliver desired value to the market, or else they will surely fail.

I am the market. Me. Before I'm a writer, I'm a reader. As a reader, I looked at the first chapters of his novels and winced. Maybe 99 out of 100 readers think his writing is fine--I don't know, I don't care. I do know that as a consumer, with money to spend, I would not spend money on him.

I'm sure also that most of us could pick holes in Mr Irvine's books, or anyone else's for that matter; but he makes the point that his books have been properly edited by people who know what they're on about, so who are we to question their ability? We can rail from the sidelines, write scathing critiques, and vote with non-relinquishment of our own hard-earned dollars, but so long as people are buying them, who gives a rat's what we think?

Who are we to question their ability? What a perfectly ridiculous notion to have. They are editors, not Gods of the Written Language. And as writers and edtors whose very work and livelihood depends on what "we think," they better care. Shoot, if we follow through with your line of reasoning, there wouldn't be book critics, English majors, or literary criticism at all. Everybody would simply shrug and say, "It's not our place to judge! We're not the all mighty editors!" As an English major, I find this stance particularly baffling. I've been trained to pick authors apart--all authors--regardless of how popular they are. Maybe it's an excerise in futility, or navel-gazing, but I'm not going to stop because some editor somewhere along the way decided that some author is marketable.
 

Mistook

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Richard said:
It must be said that I am not driven into a blinding rage by the occasional deployment of a passive...


Neither am I, but when the repeat offender gets to market and then whines about how the industry is tough - demoralizing the efforts of struggling writers such as we have here, and such as I hold dear...

Screw the mooda Fookra!

Read the early posts, before I came out with guns blazing. Everybody was scared shirtless by this guy's "article".


Not in my town! I don't care if I'm not deputized.
 
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Richard

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Why? It's basically the same stuff that you'll find anywhere else, the only difference being that people are attacking him because of something totally unrelated in his books rather than what he said in the article - something which to be honest smacks of sour grapes rather than righteous indignation.
 

SJB

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pepperlandgirl said:
I did, and the sentence was still passive.

You're talking about this sentence, right? "[font=&quot]It was the final night of the Graduation Telling, when the masters and students of the College of the Histories at Chanthed told the Great Tales that were the very essence of human life on Santhenar."

[/font]
That sentence doesn't contain a single passive. Maybe you should check your understanding of grammar before slagging off at someone else for a supposed error.
 

SJB

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My beef with this guy is that he underestimates the reading public. He asserts, "Judged awards are generally assessed by a panel of judges, usually from academia or literary figures. They tend to be looking for literary qualities, originality and themes that are of concern to them. These are often not the qualities that would appeal to the reading public."

Isn't that insane? He continues,

"Lesser awards... won’t have a significant impact on sales (and winning them may indicate that you’re
[sic]writing is at the literary rather than the popular end of the spectrum)."

Again, he seems to suggest that there is almost something shameful about turning out a book with - gasp - literary merit, and that quality and popularity are mutually exclusive.

Would he consider Margaret Atwood popular, I wonder? I sure wouldn't mind her royalty cheques.

Overall, though, I thought it was a decent article. Well worth the price.
 
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