Problems with using old lore

This is my first post here in the SF/F thread, so hello!

I've been working on my urban fantasy WIP for nearly a year now and so far have been using Welsh and Arthurian lore to explain the fantasy elements. I am finding that so much of the lore I'm working with overlaps with Celtic lore, and I find myself wondering if I'm trying to reinvent the wheel and maybe I should just stick with the Celts, even though I want to use what I've started with.

So moving on...

The Celts had Druids for their sorcerers, which I love, but I'm trying to find a title for the Welsh/Arthurian sorcerers. Did they even have a title? In all of the books I've collected I can't find any references to a sorcery title, except for the dieties, famous figures, and such. Also, I'm stumbling over what the sorcerers would call regular humans. It feels weird for a souped-up human to call a regular human just a human or a mortal, but I do feel like there should be a distinction between the two, at least from the sorcerer's perspective.

Another thing that is bothering me is that there are so many conflicting definitions for what specific characters (the gods and dieties) did and how they worked, who they were married to, and so on. I know this is fantasy and I have some creative license here, but I don't want to be raked over the coals for taking too much of the creative license, either. They're working in a modern world now so my thoughts are that things will change significantly for them now that they're out of the otherworld, and the past is history. Does anyone have any experience with this?

All right, that's enough questions for now Thanks a million for taking a look, and for any answers you may have for me!

Hi Sarpedon, thanks for your response.

I don't see my sorcerers as just people who can do magic. In my world, magic isn't a skill that can be picked up for fun and hobby or whatever, it's a genetic trait, a mutation of sorts that has evolved as a means for survival. So from a biological perspective, Average Joe is a different human race than Magic Man, and because my book is written from the POV of a Magic Man, they would see Average Joe as something different, or at least that's what I think because I keep tripping over it when I'm writing. I hope that makes sense

Forgot to add: I have seen the majority of references point to Morgan le Fay as a sorceress, as well as half-sorceress/half-Fae, which is why I've used sorcery instead of anything else. From what I've read of Druidry, it's what the Celts called their sorcerers and priests, right?

sunandshadow said:

Guess you could call the regular people sorceless?

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Love it!

And yes, that's exactly the sort of thing I was looking for (muggles, mundanes, etc.) Thanks for that, Sunandshadow!

Gray Rose said:

BlackViolet - I am afraid there's been some confusion. The Welsh are Celts, just like the Irish. Welsh language is a Celtic language (it belongs to the p-Celtic group while Irish belongs to the q-Celtic group). The Welsh had Druids like the Irish. The poetic and magical traditions overlapped. I am sure Medievalist can tell you a lot more when she gets here.

Have you read the Mabinogi?

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Thank you, Gray Rose Yes, I have read the Mabinogi and the other Cycles, and I have other texts as well, but not so much on the actual history of Wales. It's been a long time though, and now I think it's time for a refresher.

I don't think I was very clear above either, in the interest of keeping the posts as short as I could. Sorry about that I guess I could compare the connections Welsh and Irish mythologies with the connections between Roman and Greek mythologies--same characters, but with different names, right?. My anal-retentive side wants to separate them so much, which I think is a big part of the problem. I think I need to approach this strictly from the Welsh POV, instead of trying to find the Irish connections (and then I wonder if I should come at it from the other side, but I'm too stubborn to change now)

And your answer about the Druids is exactly what I was looking for. Thank you!

JessRamage said:

One of the reasons there's a diversity of legend is that the 'Celts' as a people lived all over the place and could be divided into a number of different tribes or groups. The Welsh legends are similar to the Irish (Nuada of the Silver Hand vs Llud Llaw Ereint is the first one that a. comes to mind and b. I can spell without looking up), but there are differences in names, abilities etc. where the stories have varied. Whenever I come across something like that (and to be honest, most mythologies have variations) for instance in my story that was based on Egyptian mythology, I choose whatever works best for the story I want to write. In that example I had to pick a version of the Seth - Osiris myth and stick with that, despite that having changed over the centuries.

In terms of druidry, or terms for magical or non magical things, you could always call them something like 'normal' but in Welsh or Brithonic or whatever suits your particular strain of Celtic? I use Brithonic and Gaulish, which is related with a bit of Latin-influence thrown in, and I find it quite often sounds 'almost English', antiquated, which can work sometimes.

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Thanks, Jess. I like that you said you chose whatever works best for your story because that is where I'm running into problems. So many variations out there, and I'm having problems choosing which ones to use. I guess it's probably a good idea to remain consistent within one legend, instead of borrowing bits and pieces from several, then?

And I am especially interested in Llud, I've read that one in its many variations as well and I hope I can incorporate it somehow, too.

I love your idea of using the native languages for the normal folks! That's an excellent idea, and I'm going to look into that as well. I think it'll help with many other things as well.

Thank you!

Ravenlocks said:

Also don't forget there was a lot of French influence on the Arthurian legends. The Arthur/Guinevere/Lancelot love triangle was a French addition, as I recall, and Mordred being Arthur's bastard son by his sister was too, I believe. There's a similar story about Roland being Charlemagne's son by his sister. You might read Chretien de Troyes, if you haven't already (there's supposed to be an accent aigu over the first "e" in his name).

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Thank you, Ravenlocks! I haven't yet explored the French tales (making notes to do so now ), but I do have Selected Tales of King Arthur by Sir Thomas Malory and the Encyclopaedia of Arthurian Legends, as well as the Mabinogi. The more the merrier though, I want to read as many as I can now

Medievalist said:

You might want to take a look at these book lists and these FAQs.

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These are wonderful! Thank you so much!