For to learn better English

Dichroic · Apr 17, 2008

How would you explain to someone who speaks English as a second language when to use "for" and when to use "to"?

The best I could come up with was " 'For' generally means 'on behalf of' while 'to' has to do with direction." Which is generally true (of course, there are always exceptions) but is not as clear as I would like.

Thanks in advance!
(I also pointed out that it's a very hard question to answer and that when you start asking questions like that you're already dealing with the language at a very high level! Incidentally, I have never noticed that person using either word incorrectly.)

maestrowork · Apr 17, 2008

English is my second language. For me, there's no rhyme and reason (beside the obvious). I mean, "do it to me" and "do it for me" are easy to distinguish, but what's the difference between "for me, it's just a question" and "to me, it's just a question"?

Basically, I just memorize everything.

HeronW · Apr 17, 2008

They have very few prepositions in Hebrew, makes translations interesting.

Do it to me--is having another complete a direct action upon my person--manicure my nails, style my hair

Do it for me--is having another person commit an action that I cannot or will not do --clean my windows, file my taxes

Dichroic · Apr 17, 2008

HeronW - not always. "Here, this is for you," doesn't quite seem to fit your rules, or even "I'm giving this to you for your wife" (the second preposition there; the first one does fit your example).

I'm not sure what you'd use for "for" in Hebrew, but aren't the prefixes mem and lamed, respectively, fairly close translations for from and to?

girlyswot · Apr 17, 2008

lamed is 'to, for, at, belonging to, concerning...'

mem is pretty close to 'from' or sometimes 'of'.

Dichroic · Apr 17, 2008

Girlyswot, thanks. My Hebrew is pathetically bad, for someone who actually studied it for six years. But that was a long time ago, and on a continent far away (in Philadelphia, in fact).

I was telling someone just today that at this point it's probably less useful than my (few phrases of) Mandarin. I suppose some of it would come back if I studied it.

StephanieFox · Apr 18, 2008

English is a difficult language. I am very glad it was my first language and that I speak it, the way I play music, by ear.

icerose · Apr 19, 2008

I think it would be the same way of learning the male and female attachments to objects in other languages. It's something you have to memorize until it becomes somewhat of a second nature. But you still have to memorize which gender is assigned to which object because to me there isn't any reason for it either. It's going to take a lot of work for whoever is trying to work. Perhaps try working up 3x5 cards of various examples of proper usage of each so they can see it right multiple times.

Dichroic · Apr 19, 2008

Icerose: interestingly, the person who asked me the question always does seem to get it right. She's got a heavy accent and her word choice is clearly non-native, but rarely actually wrong. I think it's something she can do but couldn't figure out*why* she can - she comes up with some interesting questions!

Cathy C · Apr 19, 2008

One unique thing about the English language is the addition of "-ing" to a word to turn it into different tenses and uses.

The thread title is the best example. "To learn" becomes "learning," adding the ACTION that "to" accomplishes in other languages. If the speaker said "For learning better English" they'd be close enough not to attract notice in general conversation.

It doesn't work in ALL cases, of course. But you might make the suggestion of adding on an -ing to a word and removing the "to."

Dichroic · Apr 19, 2008

Do other languages really not have gerunds? That's interesting: I hadn't known that, though I did know English is much more flexible than most about shifting words among parts of speech.

The title was kind of a joke of mine, not anything my colleague said. It was meant as a play on that phrase, a regionalism in some parts of the US. (I just Googled it, and apparently it's originally Irish.)

Gabion · Apr 19, 2008

"...One unique thing about the English language is the addition of "-ing" to a word to turn it into different tenses and uses.

The thread title is the best example. "To learn" becomes "learning," adding the ACTION that "to" accomplishes in other languages. If the speaker said "For learning better English" they'd be close enough not to attract notice in general conversation.

It doesn't work in ALL cases, of course. But you might make the suggestion of adding on an -ing to a word and removing the "to."..."

To which we might add, you could take the words "for" and "to" out of the thread title and still have an understandable phrase. Add a question mark and it becomes something else again. English is not only opaque and unique it is a chameleon!

For to learn better English

Dichroic

that's di-CROW-ick

maestrowork

Fear the Death Ray

HeronW

Down Under Fan

Dichroic

that's di-CROW-ick

girlyswot

Dichroic

that's di-CROW-ick

StephanieFox

Maybull the Bulldog

icerose

Lost in School Work

Dichroic

that's di-CROW-ick

Cathy C

Ooo! Shiny new cover!

Dichroic

that's di-CROW-ick

Gabion