anyone ever hear of a 'white hole'?

iwannabepublished · Apr 16, 2008

I've been doing s little research into ways I can make my time travel scenario a little more 'scientific' and came across the following:

"...The complete Schwarzschild geometry consists of a black hole, a white hole, and two Universes connected at their horizons by a wormhole. The name "black hole" was invented in 1968 by John Archibald Wheeler. Before Wheeler, these objects were often referred to as ‘black stars’ or ‘frozen stars’.

It was Austrian Ludwig Flamm who had realised that Schwarzschild's solution (called the Schwarzschild Metric) to Einstein's equations actually describes a wormhole connecting two regions of flat space-time; two universes, or two parts of the same universe.

A white hole (from the negative square root solution inside the horizon) is a black hole running backwards in time. Just as black holes swallow things irretrievably, so white holes spit them out. However white holes cannot exist, since they violate the second law of thermodynamics...."

In my story, a number of 'time travelers' return to 'our' time on a one way trip. The above quote makes me think I can say they traveled through a 'white hole'. Of course, I have to figure out how to overcome the last line.

Has anyone ever heard or read about 'white holes' or seen them used in a movie?

IceCreamEmpress · Apr 16, 2008

Does this passage come from The New Time Travelers by Toomey? Because I think he expounds on it a bit more later in the book. If it comes from elsewhere, read The New Time Travelers.

If you can possibly lay your hands on Paul J. Nahin's Time Machines: Time Travel in Physics, Metaphysics, and Science Fiction I think you'd be even better informed (I haven't been able to track down the Nahin book and I'm too cheap to buy it).

John Gribbin has a very helpful webpage with a review of the scientific lit on this.

TheIT · Apr 16, 2008

A white hole was used in an episode of Red Dwarf, but I wouldn't vouch for the scientific accuracy.

Higgins · Apr 16, 2008

Kenteicher said:
I've been doing s little research into ways I can make my time travel scenario a little more 'scientific' and came across the following:

"...The complete Schwarzschild geometry consists of a black hole, a white hole, and two Universes connected at their horizons by a wormhole. The name "black hole" was invented in 1968 by John Archibald Wheeler. Before Wheeler, these objects were often referred to as ‘black stars’ or ‘frozen stars’.

It was Austrian Ludwig Flamm who had realised that Schwarzschild's solution (called the Schwarzschild Metric) to Einstein's equations actually describes a wormhole connecting two regions of flat space-time; two universes, or two parts of the same universe.

A white hole (from the negative square root solution inside the horizon) is a black hole running backwards in time. Just as black holes swallow things irretrievably, so white holes spit them out. However white holes cannot exist, since they violate the second law of thermodynamics...."

In my story, a number of 'time travelers' return to 'our' time on a one way trip. The above quote makes me think I can say they traveled through a 'white hole'. Of course, I have to figure out how to overcome the last line.

Has anyone ever heard or read about 'white holes' or seen them used in a movie?

Doesn't blowing a lot of crap out of a hole increase entropy? I don't see how it could decrease it.

Also...doesn't time travel have at least as many problems as violating thermodynamics?

And at least the results of a thermodynamic violation can be stated pretty clearly...while the result of violating whatever laws time travel violates doesn't even occur in a frame where there is any set group of laws (except I guess it violates a lot more than just thermodynamics at least potentially...though it is pretty dependent on the precise physical history involved)...

Mr Flibble · Apr 16, 2008

I answered you with my only one in the other thread. That's it, I'm tapped.

bluntforcetrauma · Apr 16, 2008

Black holes aren't proven yet.

loquax · Apr 16, 2008

I would have thought this construct would be used more for long distance space-travel, rather than time travel.

I assume a white hole would have to be man made, nothing in the universe would create one naturally. I've never come across them before, but I would guess that they're basically the "other side" of a black hole. If light gets sucked into a black hole in one universe, it will have to come out somewhere (that is, assuming black holes even go anywhere)

The biggest problem you would have to overcome when writing a story is how organic lifeforms can survive being compressed into a singularity and survive it. As far as I can tell, there's no reason why the matter should come out the other side intact. It would be smashed into billions of pieces and spewed out the other end.

If I were you I'd focus on the term "wormhole". Seeing as a white holes violate the second law of thermodynamics, as in your post, it would probably be better to invent "portals" or "gates" that use worm holes. This concept has been used too many times to mention in sci-fi, and it would be easy to get information on it.

IceCreamEmpress · Apr 16, 2008

I think that Kip Thorne's Black Holes and Time Warps is really a go-to book on this despite its age.

The short story "Why I Left Harry's All-Night Hamburgers" does posit white holes as one means of time travel, but it's not very detailed.

Smiling Ted · Apr 16, 2008

bluntforcetrauma said:
Black holes aren't proven yet.

Actually, they've discovered dozens of candidates, including several at the cores of galaxies (including our own).

Astronomers haven't seen them directly, of course, but they have concluded that black holes are the phenomenon that best explain the energy discharges and gravitic disturbances they do observe.

I don't think there are many mainstream astrophysicists who doubt that these are black holes.

JimmyB27 · Apr 16, 2008

I remember Lewis Reading playing the part of a white hole in my first school's production of Blast Off. The main characters strayed into a black hole, and the head teacher was turned into a tin of Spam. The white hole turned him back again.

As with the Red Dwarf thing, I would be hesitant about vouching for the scientific accuracy of this play.

iwannabepublished · Apr 16, 2008

thanks for the tip

IceCreamEmpress said:
Does this passage come from The New Time Travelers by Toomey? Because I think he expounds on it a bit more later in the book. If it comes from elsewhere, read The New Time Travelers.

If you can possibly lay your hands on Paul J. Nahin's Time Machines: Time Travel in Physics, Metaphysics, and Science Fiction I think you'd be even better informed (I haven't been able to track down the Nahin book and I'm too cheap to buy it).

John Gribbin has a very helpful webpage with a review of the scientific lit on this.

The quote I posted is from - http://www.krioma.net/articles/Bridge Theory/Einstein Rosen Bridge.htm

However, if you Google white holes, you will find many entries.

I looked up Paul J. Nahin on Amazon and found a copy of the book you mentioned, in used but like new condition for $22. Since I am in my research phase for my story I decided to take the plunge and order it. I did, of course, take a look at as much as I could and it does seem like it will be worth the $22. Thanks for the tip.

benbradley · Apr 16, 2008

Interesting that John Wheeler's name comes up, he died very recently:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/04/15/whole115.xml

bluntforcetrauma said:
Black holes aren't proven yet.

What would it take for their existence to be proven?

That's a trick question - science doesn't prove things.

But other than that, Smiling Ted gave an excellent response. And I recall reading about Cygnus X-1, the first good astronomical candidate for a black hole, in a National Geographic from/in the 1970's.

loquax said:
I would have thought this construct would be used more for long distance space-travel, rather than time travel.

I assume a white hole would have to be man made, nothing in the universe would create one naturally. I've never come across them before, but I would guess that they're basically the "other side" of a black hole. If light gets sucked into a black hole in one universe, it will have to come out somewhere (that is, assuming black holes even go anywhere)

The biggest problem you would have to overcome when writing a story is how organic lifeforms can survive being compressed into a singularity and survive it. As far as I can tell, there's no reason why the matter should come out the other side intact. It would be smashed into billions of pieces and spewed out the other end.

If I were you I'd focus on the term "wormhole". Seeing as a white holes violate the second law of thermodynamics, as in your post, it would probably be better to invent "portals" or "gates" that use worm holes. This concept has been used too many times to mention in sci-fi, and it would be easy to get information on it.

IMHO, a story that includes a white hole or even a wormhole in which humans can travel, whether to travel in time or through great spatial distances, is no longer hard SF, and becomes a sort of "wanabee-hard" SF. I might keep reading it (if it's a good story, because that's what drives the reader, not so much the label of SF or Fantasy), and it might still sell, but I'd have, well, less respect for it as a work of SF...

bluntforcetrauma · Apr 16, 2008

I just noticed. The White Hole thread and The Secretary's Butt thread are next to each other as I post.

Bartholomew · Apr 16, 2008

Kenteicher said:
I've been doing s little research into ways I can make my time travel scenario a little more 'scientific' and came across the following:

"...The complete Schwarzschild geometry consists of a black hole, a white hole, and two Universes connected at their horizons by a wormhole. The name "black hole" was invented in 1968 by John Archibald Wheeler. Before Wheeler, these objects were often referred to as ‘black stars’ or ‘frozen stars’.

It was Austrian Ludwig Flamm who had realised that Schwarzschild's solution (called the Schwarzschild Metric) to Einstein's equations actually describes a wormhole connecting two regions of flat space-time; two universes, or two parts of the same universe.

A white hole (from the negative square root solution inside the horizon) is a black hole running backwards in time. Just as black holes swallow things irretrievably, so white holes spit them out. However white holes cannot exist, since they violate the second law of thermodynamics...."

In my story, a number of 'time travelers' return to 'our' time on a one way trip. The above quote makes me think I can say they traveled through a 'white hole'. Of course, I have to figure out how to overcome the last line.

Has anyone ever heard or read about 'white holes' or seen them used in a movie?

I remember reading that white holes COULD exist--but only in a very young universe, and that if they existed, they would push everything away from them at incredible rates. I'm not sure this is something you could manipulate realistically for time traveling purposes.

iwannabepublished · Apr 17, 2008

The story I am planing has more to do with the interactions between people from the future and the group that is assigned to look into UFO sightings. The people from our future are not the scientists that perfected the technique for traveling back in time. However, they are aware that the power of a 'white hole' was used to slingshot them back in time. The people from the future are not on a mission to save their time but only to gently and quietly nudge the introduction of computer software to allow people to build family trees and post them on the internet so that they can be combined in order to produce a more complete record. The purpose is to . . . well you'll have to wait until I complete my book. The reason for my post was to see if the idea of using a white hole in some way could be an acceptable means for time travel.

GeorgeK · Apr 20, 2008

Kenteicher said:
The reason for my post was to see if the idea of using a white hole in some way could be an acceptable means for time travel.

I wouldn't be bothered by the concept particularly if your technology was simply using a white hole, or black, or quazar as a power source. There is a reason that this is Fantasy or Science Fiction. If you could work out the physics of it, then you'd be submitting it to a trade journal.

nybx4life · Apr 20, 2008

Yeah, a white hole sounds alright.

But then, there are wormholes.

Well, it's sci-fi, so you should still be in the clear.

anyone ever hear of a 'white hole'?

iwannabepublished

working hard - hard at work?

IceCreamEmpress

Hapless Virago

TheIT

Infuriatingly Theoretical

Higgins

Mr Flibble

They've been very bad, Mr Flibble

bluntforcetrauma

Esquire

loquax

I verb nouns adverbly

IceCreamEmpress

Hapless Virago

Smiling Ted

Ah-HA!

JimmyB27

Hoopy frood

iwannabepublished

working hard - hard at work?

benbradley

It's a doggy dog world

bluntforcetrauma

Esquire

Bartholomew

Comic guy

iwannabepublished

working hard - hard at work?

GeorgeK

ever seeking

nybx4life