What makes a novel 'genre' or commercial?

sheadakota · Apr 15, 2008

I recently had a partial rejected because it too commercial for the agent- too 'genre'- I did ask her what she meant and she said my writing was terrific and the pacing perfect and the entire submission was excellent, however she tends to lean more toward literary thrillers- hard back- in her words- smarter-than my story offered.

I thought it was decent of her to answer me, but my question for you is exactly what makes a work genre-or commercial vs Literary? I didn't realize a thriller COULD be literary.

A little education please- I want to learn- she has told me I am welcome to submitt to her again with another manuscript- But I'm not sure I have literary in me- I have 7 MS- so tell me what are the hallmarks she might be looking for?

Thanks so much- Annie

DWSTXS · Apr 15, 2008

I think it's like the definition of what 'art' is: You know it when you see it.

sheadakota · Apr 15, 2008

DWSTXS said:
I think it's like the definition of what 'art' is: You know it when you see it.

But how do you know it when you write it

Or if you have to ask, is it a mute point?

Will Lavender · Apr 15, 2008

All I can give you is an example.

It's the difference between Jonathan Kellerman and his son, Jesse.

Jonathan's novels are cop stories. They involve serial killers, car chases, dead bodies galore, forensics investigations. Jesse's novels are big on character. They're stylishly written. They sacrifice plot for mood. They are at times odd, even surreal. They may be a quick read, but they have a little more meat than your average thriller. There's a theme there, leitmotif, big ideas.

The first type of novel is aimed toward the airplane and beach audience. The second is aimed toward academics, the well-read, those who are looking for a different kind of book.

Obviously these are generalizations. Academics read James Patterson. People who see action movies like Jesse Kellerman. But I think this is probably what the agent is talking about.

(For further reading, you might look at my publisher's, Shaye Areheart's, books. They admit to publishing literary thrillers, and I think most of their titles lean toward the bend in the genre.)

sheadakota · Apr 15, 2008

Thank you Will that helps a lot-

Phaeal · Apr 15, 2008

Well, to paraphrase an example from Orson Scott Card, Ian Fleming's James Bond novels are genre or commercial espionage, while John LeCarre's George Smiley books are literary espionage. Card explains that Bond is a Romantic hero, in the original sense of Romantic -- that is, a hero bigger than life, fantastic in his abilities and his unflappability. Whereas Smiley is a Realistic hero, aging and disillusioned, plagued by a difficult past, wed to an unfaithful wife, uncertain.

For a long time, realism was one of the hallmarks of the literary. Lately, magical realism and surrealism have gained ground in that camp. Other hallmarks of the literary are "deep" characterization, unusual structuring, and close attention to language, sometimes approaching the poetic in intensity. The criticism most likely to make a acolyte of the literary break out in hives would probably be "formulaic." Whereas the criticism most likely to make the aspirant to the commercial break out might be "boring."

Card's Characters and Viewpoint, a book constantly recommended in these forums, tackles the question of literary vs. commercial from several angles. So I'll recommend it again.

One of his remarks is worth putting down right here, right now:

"...the academic/literary genre [includes] those who refer to their genre as "serious literature" -- as if the rest of us are just kidding."

:e2sling:

Nice one, Orson.

Will Lavender · Apr 15, 2008

Phaeal said:
Well, to paraphrase an example from Orson Scott Card, Ian Fleming's James Bond novels are genre or commercial espionage, while John LeCarre's George Smiley books are literary espionage. Card explains that Bond is a Romantic hero, in the original sense of Romantic -- that is, a hero bigger than life, fantastic in his abilities and his unflappability. Whereas Smiley is a Realistic hero, aging and disillusioned, plagued by a difficult past, wed to an unfaithful wife, uncertain.

For a long time, realism was one of the hallmarks of the literary. Lately, magical realism and surrealism have gained ground in that camp. Other hallmarks of the literary are "deep" characterization, unusual structuring, and close attention to language, sometimes approaching the poetic in intensity. The criticism most likely to make a acolyte of the literary break out in hives would probably be "formulaic." Whereas the criticism most likely to make the aspirant to the commercial break out might be "boring."

Card's Characters and Viewpoint, a book constantly recommended in these forums, tackles the question of literary vs. commercial from several angles. So I'll recommend it again.

One of his remarks is worth putting down right here, right now:

"...the academic/literary genre [includes] those who refer to their genre as "serious literature" -- as if the rest of us are just kidding."

Nice one, Orson.

Good answer.

I also recommend Tom Wolfe's foreword to the revised edition of Bonfire of the Vanities. We're out of the "literary thriller" debate here, but it's still a useful essay.

Heard Michael Dirda on the radio yesterday talking about this. He said it's unfortunate that Agatha Christie and others have been labeled "genre writers." He said mystery writers -- he also mentioned science fiction writers -- should be treated with the same respect as literary writers. And I completely agree with that. Anyone who turns up his nose at genre needs a kick in the ass.

(Completely off-topic here, but I hear that Dirda is a ghost writer for one very well-known mystery author. I don't want to give too much away, but if you scramble this particular author's name you get Clark. And then Mary. And then of course Higgins.)

lkp · Apr 15, 2008

I agree with Will and Phaeal. John LeCarre vs. Ian Fleming is a good way to think about it. In fantasy, maybe JRR Tolkien vs Robert Jordan.

Basically, I think of "commercial" as any book in which story and plot are pretty much contiguous, that is to say, the story is the plot. I think of a literary novel as one in which the story is bigger than the plot. The best literary novels have a great plot too, but they also explore some combination of themes and characters and ideas and form and language, etc. that make the reach of the story they tell bigger than the plot that unfolds. There is no reason why a genre novel can't be literary.

veinglory · Apr 15, 2008

Literary thrillers are styled like literary non-thrillers to some extent. That is to say use of themes such as 'the human condition', figurative language, relatively ordinary characters and situations, symbolism, non-linear and otherwise experimental story telling etc.

Raphee · Apr 16, 2008

Orhan Pamuk's MY NAME IS RED is a great example of a literary thriller. The conflict is to find out the murderer of an artist. But he also goes into tonnes of detail about the human condition, history, art and artists and the lot. No wonder he was given the Nobel.

Joe Moore · Apr 16, 2008

sheadakota said:
. . . she said my writing was terrific and the pacing perfect and the entire submission was excellent

Based upon this feedback, I would not worry about whether or not you write literary or genre fiction. It sounds like you've got a great book that just needs to be placed into the hands of the right agent. Do you research and submit to those that specialize in commercial fiction. Good luck.

maestrowork · Apr 16, 2008

Dennis Lehane vs. the run-of-the-mill mystery novels.

Cold Mountain vs. a Harlequin romance.

But yeah, it's one of those things that you'll know it when you see it.

ishtar'sgate · Apr 16, 2008

Joe Moore said:
Based upon this feedback, I would not worry about whether or not you write literary or genre fiction. It sounds like you've got a great book that just needs to be placed into the hands of the right agent. Do you research and submit to those that specialize in commercial fiction. Good luck.

I agree. Placement often seems arbitrary. My novel has been slotted as 'historical' or 'YA' or 'literary'. It has a principal theme and recurring motif. I've found it in bookstores under 'historical', 'historical romance', 'YA' , 'literary'. Don't worry about trying to slot it yourself. You'll make yourself crazy. Use the feedback you've been given to narrow your submission field and keep submitting.
Linnea

sheadakota · Apr 16, 2008

Thanks everyone- I had only been sending queries to those accepting thrillers/suspense- I have broadened my field to include commercial fiction and am sending out three more snail mail queries today as well as a few e-queries-

One other thing I realize I wasn't doing- looking at the books the agent has already gotten published to see if my work is similiar- I was just looking at the genreric likes/ dislkes. We will see what happens and thanks for the encouragement-
Annie

ToddWBush · Apr 16, 2008

I want to add something, going off of one of Will's points about the "experts" telling us writers what is "literary" and "serious literature" vs. what it is "simplistic" and "mindless entertainment" (someone actually called my stuff that once). Those "experts" who are living now will not be the ones deciding what is worth study for students of the future.

In the 1600's, a fellow by the name of Shakespeare was considered "mindless entertainment" by the so-called "intelligencia" of his day. So, I'd say bugger off to those who decry genre fiction as simplistic or mindless. Who knows? Maybe those literary snobs will get their worst nightmare to come true and someone like Stephen King will be the Shakespeare or Dickens of our time period.

Browndragon · Apr 16, 2008

As a genre writer one of the things that tends to get under my skin and making me less than diplomatic is when someone decides that if a genre writer is good--they do deep characterizations or write beautiful prose-- then they are now literary.

LaceWing · Apr 16, 2008

This question pops up repeatedly. I think about it often, and like to idealize fiction.

Try this out: As all music evolves to jazz, so all prose evolves to literary.

Lit fic tries harder to get into what we need from each other. It's heavy on the social and psychological. It's often more private, the kind of revelations and musings that friends share directly. We might find hard truths that we'd rather read when no one else is around. It attends to voice, as some of it could be sung or chanted. The writer may feel s/he is witnessing as much as sharing or telling.

icerose · Apr 16, 2008

So go for a commercial agent. There's plenty of those around. It just sounds like you got a bad fit.

Susan Breen · Apr 16, 2008

Seems to me that there are a lot of mysteries that straddle the line between literary and commercial--P.D. James, Elizabeth George, Denise Mina. One thing that strikes me about those three is that they have a compelling protagonist--someone who is interesting and yet tortured. But that sounds like a very nice rejection you got and I would just find a different agent who is more in line with you. (Easy to say, I know.)

Joe Moore · Apr 17, 2008

sheadakota said:
One other thing I realize I wasn't doing- looking at the books the agent has already gotten published to see if my work is similiar- I was just looking at the genreric likes/ dislkes. We will see what happens and thanks for the encouragement-Annie

You might also want to stroll through the book store and take a look at the dedication or acknowledgment pages of novels similar to yours. Many authors thank their agents and editors. Using that info, you can track down the agent and go from there. Good luck.

What makes a novel 'genre' or commercial?

sheadakota

part of the human equation

DWSTXS

Mr Mojo Risin...

sheadakota

part of the human equation

Will Lavender

Everything is what it seems.

sheadakota

part of the human equation

Phaeal

Whatever I did, I didn't do it.

Will Lavender

Everything is what it seems.

lkp

veinglory

volitare nequeo

Raphee

In debt to AW

Joe Moore

maestrowork

Fear the Death Ray

ishtar'sgate

living in the past

sheadakota

part of the human equation

ToddWBush

Browndragon

LaceWing

icerose

Lost in School Work

Susan Breen

Joe Moore