Should we be aware of the message

Nakhlasmoke · Apr 15, 2008

Should there even be a message?

I was in another thread, and a poster made the comment that YA is there to teach. That there should be consequences for actions because children and young adults learn from these books that for whatever you choose to do (sex, drugs, rock n roll) there will be repercussions.

I don't think I agree with this. To me, it veers awfully close to moralising.

Am I just getting all bothered by something everyone else takes for granted?

It's this part I specifically disagreed with:

Because you are writing to young and late teenagers who need to know that having sex, doing drugs and criminal acts can lead to consequences that may or may not change their lives. To let them think otherwise is to treat them like they are stupid and incapable of looking at the world they live in with an open mind.

It may be that I'm getting the complete wrong end of the stick here, so what are your thoughts on the matter.

Shweta · Apr 15, 2008

Ha! I found your thread.

Your response took me aback, partly because given the words here you could as easily have quoted some of what I said in that other thread. But I'm probably as vigorously anti-message as you are.

I do think context matters; the position you're arguing against was stated as an opposition to someone else, who (I paraphrase) wanted the nasty stuff taken out of YA (for some definition of nasty stuff). Now, perhaps I didn't see the messagey bit you did because of the context (I read "to let them think otherwise" as "to censor sex from their reading") , but... in general I don't think having consequences follow from actions is the same as moralizing. However, I'm having a lot of trouble enunciating why. Partly because there are books that will moralize in the name of Consequences, and there are people who think there must be a Message unless it's an adult book.

Now I'm vigorously against leaving topics out of YA just because adults are uncomfortable with younger people reading about them, but I think we agree on that one, and believe your issue is with the handling of content and, the presuppositions inherent in that, rather than the presence/absence of specific content.

So partly I'm wondering how one argues with the idea that we must shade the poor dears' precious innocent eyes without accidentally sounding messagey

Nakhlasmoke · Apr 15, 2008

Ha yeah, I think I freaked out about the idea of using YA literature as some kind of message centre for the anti-everything propaganda people.

I'm also against the idea that certain things should be left out of YA because the poor dears can't deal with the reality. *grin*

There are YA books that don't feature drugs, sex, anhd whatever else people feel teens shouldn't know about, and that's fine because not everyone wants to read the same thing, or is at the same level of maturity, but I think the kids (ie: the READERS) should make that call for themselves.

And I don't think the writer has a duty to preach consequences. The writer's duty is to tell the best damn story they can, consequences be buggered.

But then again, I'm not a YA writer, and my one YA book may very well have to be rewritten for an adult market *shrug*

C.bronco · Apr 15, 2008

My YA novel has a definite message: Beware people who want to over-legislate your lives because good intentions cause a lot of havoc and the end doesn't justify the means; watch our for censorship; and we can't create a utopia by removing individuals' rights to make their own decisions.

But that's my book. I don't want you to write my book, and I don't want to write yours. I want to hear what you have to say in your book, and if we all wrote only from a pc perspective, there would be no point in reading- we could just allow Big Brother to format our brains.

czjaba · Apr 15, 2008

Nakhlasmoke said:
I'm also against the idea that certain things should be left out of YA because the poor dears can't deal with the reality. *grin*

And I don't think the writer has a duty to preach consequences. The writer's duty is to tell the best damn story they can, consequences be buggered.

I agree with this. There is another thread on this board asking what we were reading at age 12. My first Stephen King book was "The Shining." I was 12 when I read that. Then "Pet Cemetary." I highly doubt there were YA messages in those books. Other than beware of twins on tricycles and don't dig up your dead cat. And then again, I was 14 when I read George Orwell's "1984."

Nakhlasmoke · Apr 15, 2008

czjaba said:
I agree with this. There is another thread on this board asking what we were reading at age 12. My first Stephen King book was "The Shining." I was 12 when I read that. Then "Pet Cemetary." I highly doubt there were YA messages in those books. Other than beware of twins on tricycles and don't dig up your dead cat. And then again, I was 14 when I read George Orwell's "1984."

I wonder if this is why I don't like YA moralising - because I didn't read YA as a teen, only later on. I was the pseudo (read: pathetic loser with no life and an ego to compensate) intellectual type hauling around my Hesse collection *headdesk*

So going on to read YA where the underlying message seemed to be Don't do drugs 'cause you'll DIE! Or don't have sex because then you'll DIE!! I mean fall pregnant!!! just annoyed me, I felt like I was being talked down to. Perhaps if I'd read YA when I was supposed to I wouldn't have felt that way.

Shweta · Apr 15, 2008

Nakhlasmoke said:
Perhaps if I'd read YA when I was supposed to I wouldn't have felt that way.

Yes, but it would have invaded your brain and warped you.
I mean, ahem.

Not all YA does that! The good stuff doesn't. But I think actions having consequences is ... uh, fundamental to fiction. I just think the actions and consequences should be specific to the character and the character's situation, rather than Determined By The ~~Preacher~~Author.

One reason I love YA, often more than so-called adult books, is that the "I'm jaded and so are you" cop-out doesn't come up nearly as much. The characters who are jumping into bed (or any other action) are doing so for their reasons, not just because readers expect sex (/death/mutilation/divorce/carnivorous alien tourists) by chapter 3, so it can actually be real to the characters rather than ho-hum. But then in general I find jaded really boring. If the characters don't care, neither do I, and I tend to suspect the author of not caring either.

Wandering back to topic, I do love this piece by Le Guin: A message about messages.

U.K.Le Guin said:
As a fiction writer, I don't speak message. I speak story. Sure, my story means something, but if you want to know what it means, you have to ask the question in terms appropriate to storytelling. Terms such as message are appropriate to expository writing, didactic writing, and sermons—different languages from fiction.

(That's just one paragraph. The whole thing is delightful).

Nakhlasmoke · Apr 15, 2008

True, all things have consequences.

In my rambling incoherent way I was referring to preachy consequences that fit with the author's world view.

Ta for the link. I love me some Le Guinisms

Perks · Apr 15, 2008

I don't write YA (at least, not yet) but I don't think it's possible to write any fiction without delivering a message. Some stories will reveal consequences, but there will also be stories that relate the truth that, in fiction as in life, sometimes people walk between the raindrops and don't even realize it.

I think people should only fear moralizing if they've not got the chops to pull it off. Being preached to can be bliss or torture. It all depends on who is behind the pulpit.

For readability, it's probably safer not to calculate for effect.

Nakhlasmoke · Apr 15, 2008

But Perks, just out of interest - do you write with a message in mind?

I'm not attacking you, I just find it a hard concept to wrap my brain around so i'd be interested to see how and why you do it.

Perks · Apr 15, 2008

Oh no, I don't do it! Lol! Haven't got the chops.

Perks · Apr 15, 2008

I think I'm agreeing with you. Writing message first, story second is dangerous business. It can be done well, but most of us are better off avoiding it.

WittyandorIronic · Apr 15, 2008

Shweta said:
Your response took me aback, partly because given the words here you could as easily have quoted some of what I said in that other thread. But I'm probably as vigorously anti-message as you are.
I do think context matters; the position you're arguing against was stated as an opposition to someone else, who (I paraphrase) wanted the nasty stuff taken out of YA (for some definition of nasty stuff). Now, perhaps I didn't see the messagey bit you did because of the context (I read "to let them think otherwise" as "to censor sex from their reading") , but... in general I don't think having consequences follow from actions is the same as moralizing. However, I'm having a lot of trouble enunciating why. Partly because there are books that will moralize in the name of Consequences, and there are people who think there must be a Message unless it's an adult book.
Now I'm vigorously against leaving topics out of YA just because adults are uncomfortable with younger people reading about them, but I think we agree on that one, and believe your issue is with the handling of content and, the presuppositions inherent in that, rather than the presence/absence of specific content.
So partly I'm wondering how one argues with the idea that we must shade the poor dears' precious innocent eyes without accidentally sounding messagey

So... after writing a long (and confusing) response I realized I really just agree with this. lol.

Claudia Gray · Apr 15, 2008

I think preaching or talking down to YA readers is a very bad idea. But I think most of us have messages in our books, albeit not the kind of simple lessons you're worried about -- messages about self-determination, or the demands of friendship, or what constitutes a good romantic partner. I think that comes out in the stories without our having to underline it three times in red, if you get what I mean.

heatheringemar · Apr 15, 2008

Nakhlasmoke said:
So going on to read YA where the underlying message seemed to be Don't do drugs 'cause you'll DIE! Or don't have sex because then you'll DIE!! I mean fall pregnant!!! just annoyed me, I felt like I was being talked down to. Perhaps if I'd read YA when I was supposed to I wouldn't have felt that way.

And we wonder why teens don't like to read????

I don't think reading it as a teen versus reading YA as an adult makes any difference. A preachy book is a preachy book, no matter how you slice it.

And they just aren't fun to read. Give the kids a story that's fun, that's a real romp, and they'll read it. Try and preach at them, and you've lost your chance.

C.bronco · Apr 15, 2008

Ditto.
When I read Atlas Shrugged, I skipped over the 20 page speech at the end (blah blah blah!) because she already made her point with the story.
I like books with good plots, spectacle and interesting characters, and always have. That's what captures my attention and imagination.

Chicken Warrior · Apr 15, 2008

I can't honestly think of any published YA fiction (or adult literary) that doesn't have a message. I don't think it's because people don't write it, but because publishers don't publish it, for better or for worse.

I don't start writing with a message, but if I'm getting close to the end and I can't discern what my book is actually telling people, it definitely feels like cause to worry. I definitely like to think that most YA fiction is beyond the stage of hammering out the 'don't do drugs' messages, etc.

Metaphor · Apr 15, 2008

I think, especially in YA, while a message is important, it is more important that the message is not patronising. A teenager will spot that a mile away - it is awful being preached at not to do drugs when you never intended to do drugs, but merely happened to read a book about it.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that as long as the "message" is no more "message-y" than in adult books, and it isn't rammed down the readers throat, then it's fine.

Shweta · Apr 15, 2008

I think there are two senses of message being used here.

1) the message of a story is its "point", what the characters (and/or readers) learn or discover over the course of the story. This might be something we can state explicitly (like, for example, better to stick with your true friends than ditching them to toady the cool kids) or something that you can only point at vaguely (like, actually people are pretty savage without enculturation). In this view, the message grows out of the story and it's not a bad thing.

2) A message is a didactic, simple rule, one that can be stated in a sentence. (like, don't do drugs, sex will get you pregnant). It's a prescriptive rule, not a descriptive rule. It tells you how to think and how to behave. A messagey story enacts that rule; it's just a vehicle for the rule. In this view, the story is built around the message. In this view, messages are not in every story, and they are bad things.

In the essay I linked earlier, Le Guin holds to (2) for the word message and calls (1) the story's meaning. I rather like this distinction. Because I'm guessing most stories have some of each, and that the line between them is complex and blurry, and would be fun to talk about. Which is hard if we're all using the same word to mean two different things

ishtar'sgate · Apr 15, 2008

Nakhlasmoke said:
Should there even be a message?

I was in another thread, and a poster made the comment that YA is there to teach.

I don't see why YA literature should be singled out as a teaching tool. In any case, pretty much every novel has a message although it's generally referred to as theme.
Linnea

bluntforcetrauma · Apr 15, 2008

I didn't have the chance to read all the replies, but I feel the writer has a responsibility to the reader to deliver a message that's inline with the sensibilities of it's intended audience.

Brutal Mustang · Apr 15, 2008

A problem is that real life has consequences; but writers can and do gloss things up to make it seem like there are no consequences. Those of us who have lived a little can immediately detect silly hogwash in a book, (because we've either tried it, or seen someone who has, and know the consequences). Those who haven't experienced life may not be able to think about the consequences of something presented in a story.

Young people aren't stupid. Just inexperienced in life. And for better or worse, they are learning in leaps and bounds, absorbing everything around them like a sponge. Not a good time to read irresponsibly written books.

William Haskins · Apr 15, 2008

the market will usually decide these things.

benbradley · Apr 15, 2008

Being suspicious of what "message" there might be in a particular YA work, I read the first ten or twenty pages of the first volume of "Left Behind: The Kids" and the thing is hugely and obviously lecturing - the tone is just dripping with 'this kid is The Bad Kid, he doesn't obey his parents, and he doesn't know it yet, but he's gonna be SO SORRY...' I can't imagine anyone reading it of their own volition, and I feel sorry for anyone who might have had it bought for them and was told or implied they should read it.

I most strongly recall Heinlein's juveniles - they often DID have a "message" or a "moral" but it was (IMHO) pretty subtle, and subservient to the story (actually, deeply ingrained within the story well enough not to notice). If you're going to have a message, that's how to do it - have a story that's good enough you can sneak in the message. And he didn't always get to publish the book he wrote - check out "Two versions of the ending" (warning, big spoiler for the novel) section here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Podkayne_of_Mars

The "moral" is there doesn't need to be a message, and if there is, you better not hit the reader over the head with it, no more in YA than in any other genre.

Nakhlasmoke · Apr 15, 2008

Brutal Mustang said:
...Not a good time to read irresponsibly written books.

My only responsibility is to write a good story.

Or how do you define an irresponsibly written book.

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