Sex in fantasy

Sidereal · Apr 10, 2008

I was writing a scene and my characters ran off and made mad passionate love when I wasn't looking. It got rather spicy.

How do we define the line between romance and erotica? Is there a dicey fantasy novel someone can recommend? I'd like to stay under the wire and wait for a career before I push that line to the extreme.

This is my first real post and it’s about sex. Should I go spank myself?

Ta!

sunandshadow · Apr 10, 2008

I write erotica so I won't speculate on what's acceptable as romance, but here's a good piece of advice I've heard - if a novel has only one sex scene, it has no business being an erotica, tune the scene down. But if it has 3 or more sex scenes it is destined to be an erotica, that's too much time and pages to waste on non-detailed sex because detailed sex develops the characters psychology and emotions better, and can even advance the plot.

Sassee · Apr 10, 2008

Here's the difference.

In Romance, the sex has a purpose. It deepens a relationship, or has some other effect on the character / storyline. It is detailed enough to let the reader know "hey, something's happening", but you don't get a run down of every inch of the involved peoples' anatomies, and you don't get a play by play for 30+ pages.

In Erotica, the sex is purely in there for the sex. That's it. If it happens to advance the plot, great, but otherwise it's just there to get you excited.

kimb68 · Apr 10, 2008

I saw the subject of this thread and my answer is: Yes!

But seriously, I think a spicy sex scene can work if it's consistent with the rest of the book. If you're writing a Tolkien-esque fantasy with lots of poetry and asexual elves and high-flown dialogue, then a raunchy sex scene is going to stand out. If you're writing a brawling kind of fantasy with plenty of violence and black humor, then graphic sex could fit right in. And be really cool.

I say, go for it. Too many fantasy writers are timid about sex.

There's an interesting sex scene in Guy Gavriel Kay's "Tigana," (one of my favorite books). Interesting because it happens really early on, it's between two people who don't end up romantically involved with each other, and it's surprisingly graphic. Also, I hesitate to mention him, but Terry Goodkind's "Wizard's First Rule," has a weird S&M thing about 3/4 of the way through that comes out of left field, but made the book really unusual. (And also sent him off on a three-book tangent that just got more and more sadistic. Avoid the sequels.)

Also, what Sassee said. A sex scene, even in fantasy, should advance the plot. Not just be there for titillation.

SPMiller · Apr 10, 2008

I wrote exactly one semi-graphic sex scene in my fantasy novel because it had to be there. Why? Because it shows the development of three things as follows:

1) the main characters' psychic powers,
2) their emotional attachment to each other, and
3) their deep psychic bond.

These are the critical plot elements for the remainder of the novel, so I can't just throw the scene out the window, wave my hands, say abracadabra, and pretend it all came out of nowhere.

See how that works? As those above me have already said, if the scene serves to advance plot or reveal character, write it. And believe me, sex is a good way of revealing character. If you're old enough, you probably already know that...

Otherwise, cut the scenes. Leave titillation to the erotica writers. And if you just have to write it, well, save it and release it online to your fans after you've published the novel

Ruv Draba · Apr 11, 2008

As with all controversial story elements, I think that the keys are focus, appropriateness and balance.

Focus: is it significant to the plot, the character development and/or the major themes?
Appropriateness: have you rendered it in a manner consistent with the mood, themes, characters, plot, setting and (hence) intended audience? Have you researched it adequately?
Balance: have you paid only as much attention to it as supports the story focus? Have you meanwhile paid enough attention to the other story elements that might be occurring?

Get these things right and it probably won't matter so much what 'genre' it is. You'll have a solid story that will find its own place.

Good luck!

sunna · Apr 11, 2008

Ruv Draba said:
Focus: is it significant to the plot, the character development and/or the major themes?
Appropriateness: have you rendered it in a manner consistent with the mood, themes, characters, plot, setting and (hence) intended audience? Have you researched it adequately?
Balance: have you paid only as much attention to it as supports the story focus? Have you meanwhile paid enough attention to the other story elements that might be occurring?

Excellent analysis.

If it furthers the plot, fits, and/or is significant to character development, there's no reason not to have a good sex scene in a fantasy, IMO.

Try Jacqueline Carey's Kushiel's Legacy series, if you want to see some fairly detailed sex scenes, in books that are definitely fantasy. She does it very well.

Keyan · Apr 11, 2008

Sassee said:
Here's the difference.

In Romance, the sex has a purpose. It deepens a relationship, or has some other effect on the character / storyline. It is detailed enough to let the reader know "hey, something's happening", but you don't get a run down of every inch of the involved peoples' anatomies, and you don't get a play by play for 30+ pages.

In Erotica, the sex is purely in there for the sex. That's it. If it happens to advance the plot, great, but otherwise it's just there to get you excited.

And if it's porn, the plot is optional, too. It's just there to tell you who the people are, attached to the relevant anatomies...

Shweta · Apr 11, 2008

Uh, so, I think there's a largish chunk of fantasy that wanders into that maybe-it's-erotica territory. A lot of urban-fantasy-with-vampires falls into this, but so do alternate-world series like the Carey books Sunna mentioned.

You could also look at Ellen Kushner's Swordspoint, Kushner & Sherman's The Fall of the Kings,, and Kushner's The Privilege of the Sword (which is YA, at that). ETA: not claiming that Kushner's sex scenes are erotica, though some are romance -- my personal definition there being it's erotica if it's fun, it's romance if it's building up a relationship, and it can be both no matter what the marketing categories say.

Fair warning, I don't actually remember very well how explicitly sex scenes are drawn so long as I get the idea and it doesn't hurt my brain for bad writing. But the following I think have pretty explicit sex in 'em.

Some of Tanith Lee's work.
Entirely not porn (because it's horrible for the protag and for the reader, and can only be borne because it's plot-crucial): early in Jo Walton's The King's Peace. Early enough that I don't think that's a spoiler.
Semi-detailed, though not graphic, sex scenes in some of Tamora Pierce's books, which are YA fantasy.
Sex that certainly stuck in my head: in Ian McDonald's King of Morning, Queen of Day.
Going back to the oldies, Anne McCaffrey and Marion Zimmer Bradley certainly walked the soft-porn line often enough.

And that's my brain giving up on me. Hope that's a fair start.

MattW · Apr 11, 2008

If your fantasy doesn't have any sex at all or references to it, you are also not allowed to have a single teenage boy character, nor any hardened warriors. The one will sacrifice all other quests for sex, and the other has a secret code of communicating through dirty jokes.

Sassee · Apr 11, 2008

MattW said:
If your fantasy doesn't have any sex at all or references to it, you are also not allowed to have a single teenage boy character, nor any hardened warriors. The one will sacrifice all other quests for sex, and the other has a secret code of communicating through dirty jokes.

ROFL! The truth, you speaks it.

Shweta said:
Uh, so, I think there's a largish chunk of fantasy that wanders into that maybe-it's-erotica territory. A lot of urban-fantasy-with-vampires falls into this, but so do alternate-world series like the Carey books Sunna mentioned. You could also look at Ellen Kushner's Swordspoint, Kushner & Sherman's The Fall of the Kings,, and Kushner's The Privilege of the Sword (which is YA, at that).

There is only one series I can think of that toes the line at erotica, but the author still manages to make the sex have a purpose. There's just LOTS of it. (too much, I think, but she does write it well)

Honestly, besides that one series, I don't see any sex in urban fantasy as even close to erotica. The storyline doesn't revolve around it. The characters grow from it. I mean it's in there, and it's enjoyable, but if you took the sex out there would still be a story. Such is not the case with true Erotica.

That said, I actually like it that there's sex in recent fantasy. It's realistic. I mean come on, a band of 3-5 that rescues a princess is not realistically going to make it all the way across the realm to wherever they're going and not try to at least make a come-on to said princess. Hello! Hormones happen. And in space? Yeah. No where else to go on a ship, guys. And females aren't as cold as they act. We want it sometimes too, you know!

So anyways, Sidereal, just write whatever fits in your story. Detail it or soften it to your preference and keep going.

Straka · Apr 11, 2008

or you could be like manga or anime where they look at each other repeating the other's name until a year goes by and they finally find the courage to hold hands. Maybe another year they might actually get to kiss right as they're saving the world.... oh it kills me sometimes.

Lyra Jean · Apr 11, 2008

Straka said:
or you could be like manga or anime where they look at each other repeating the other's name until a year goes by and they finally find the courage to hold hands. Maybe another year they might actually get to kiss right as they're saving the world.... oh it kills me sometimes.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who is bothered by this. On the other hand there is the tentacle monster rapes would like to avoid that too.

I don't know the name of the book but my mom told me about it. It's a SF novel where a group of people are traveling through space and their ship is powered by sex.

And don't forget "Stranger in a Strange Land" by Heinlein.

Higgins · Apr 11, 2008

Sidereal said:
I was writing a scene and my characters ran off and made mad passionate love when I wasn't looking. It got rather spicy.

How do we define the line between romance and erotica? Is there a dicey fantasy novel someone can recommend? I'd like to stay under the wire and wait for a career before I push that line to the extreme.

This is my first real post and it’s about sex. Should I go spank myself?

Ta!

Lately everything I write is mostly drenched in sex. I thought it was a new thing for me....but I re-read the extended climax of a novel I wrote 10 years ago and it was pretty much the same. So...sorry to say you don't get to spank yourself...at least not in my book.

Sidereal · Apr 11, 2008

These are such fantastic replies! You all are great!

The scene isn't raunchy, I despise raunch. Sex should be beautiful.

It is about 10 pages if you include the prelude and it is visual which is what worries me.

He has no aggression and is content to let her go where she will. She is surprised to find herself doing what she is doing and wonders if he is controlling her hands. She is slow and cautious and frightened and ponders every move she makes which is what makes it hard not to show detail. She can't stop and her excitement fights with her puzzlement over her strange behavior. She worries about when it is over will it be over. Ultimately she sees his longing is for her heart and she knows she has found a home.

Gosh, putting it that way I guess it is very character building. So how much picture should you (not) paint for a young audience?

sunandshadow · Apr 11, 2008

For a young audience? If it's a YA that changes the rules a bit: kissing, nakedness, full body hugging, the implication that they're going to have sex are all good, but probably no genitals or anything in contact with them. Maybe move her realization to earlier in the scene and then fade to black. Also how old are the characters? YA main characters are generally younger than 18, while characters portrayed in sex scenes should if possible be older than 18.

maxmordon · Apr 11, 2008

Agreed with Sunandshadow. Have you read Stardust? there are a couple of sex scenes who I think where nicely done; but again is not a YA.

If is in an epical fantasy I don't keep problem with it, if keeps the same narrative and is not out of place

Constantine K · Apr 11, 2008

rosemerry said:
I don't know the name of the book but my mom told me about it. It's a SF novel where a group of people are traveling through space and their ship is powered by sex.

I think it was called "The Greatest Book Ever."

Sarpedon · Apr 11, 2008

what, did they have a tiny generator attached to all the beds?

Squeak, Squeak, Squeak

"Oh! Oh, James, generate some wattage with me!"

maxmordon · Apr 11, 2008

Sarpedon said:
what, did they have a tiny generator attached to all the beds?

Squeak, Squeak, Squeak

"Oh! Oh, James, generate some wattage with me!"

I think I saw a softcore porn with that idea

Straka · Apr 11, 2008

rosemerry said:
I'm glad I'm not the only one who is bothered by this. On the other hand there is the tentacle monster rapes would like to avoid that too.

For example "Ah! My Goddess" makes me want to stab myself in the eye sometimes.

But in a lot fantasy in general I am surprised by the lack of sex... or at least sexual interest. Granted I've only read the first 3 of Jordan's Wheel in Time, but I thought that some of those teenage boys would be aggressive? may be the word. On some level they seem very innocent.

Straka · Apr 11, 2008

Sarpedon said:
what, did they have a tiny generator attached to all the beds?

Squeak, Squeak, Squeak

"Oh! Oh, James, generate some wattage with me!"

Can I make the joke that the ship must smell terrible?

Now consider just how large space is and therefore how much "thrust" one might need to propel a ship forward at a rapid pace...

veinglory · Apr 11, 2008

There is romance, there is erotica, there is fantasy, there is erotic romance, there is erotic fantasy, there is erotic fantasy romance. These are not mutually exclusive categories.

Also erotica is not defined by being gratuitous--that is like suggesting everyone who frequents the erotic forum aspires to suck as an author. There have been many great erotic works that had literary merit and vice versa. The book doesn't become otherwise without merit as soon as the reader gets sexually interested in the action.

Shweta · Apr 11, 2008

sunandshadow said:
For a young audience? If it's a YA that changes the rules a bit: kissing, nakedness, full body hugging, the implication that they're going to have sex are all good, but probably no genitals or anything in contact with them. Maybe move her realization to earlier in the scene and then fade to black. Also how old are the characters? YA main characters are generally younger than 18, while characters portrayed in sex scenes should if possible be older than 18.

*deep sigh*

This comes up again and again. Underage characters having sex, clearly described, happens in YA. It happens in YA fantasy. The YA writers on this board have a wonderful thread about edgy YA which will blow your mind if you think we have to protect the chilldren.

Even just in what I've read, genitals and contact very much happen -- and yes, between or to characters under 18, for readers under 18, gasp. It's not like a lot of 'em aren't doing it themselves. Anyway, clear sex happened in Judy Blume's Forever, which was written lo these many years ago, and just try anything by Frencesca Lia Block or other current YA writers; the characters are sleeping with one another all over the place.

Young characters have sex, talk about sex, are confused about their sexuality, do stupid things, deal with the effects... they really truly do.

Most of the people who, time and again, speak up to say what you can't do in YA, don't read current YA.

ETA: Also, what veinglory says. Edited earlier post to be clearer on what I mean by the word erotica.

CDarklock · Apr 11, 2008

Sidereal said:
I was writing a scene and my characters ran off and made mad passionate love when I wasn't looking. It got rather spicy.

How do you know? You said you weren't looking. Naughty, naughty girl.

This is my first real post and it’s about sex. Should I go spank myself?

Don't trouble yourself. I could do it.

Mercedes Lackey tends to write an awful spicy fantasy novel, and my wife absolutely adores her. It's not my thing, but there's a definite market for it.

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