Orchard House Press (formerly Windstorm Creative)

[Alison]

Anyone have any experience with this book publisher? Just curious.

[racheln]

Hi,

I don't have any experience working with them, but have seen the 'quality' of one of their publications - and it was *appalling*.

I ordered a copy as had been interested in the possibility of writing for them, as a topic of particular interest was on their current need list. But after seeing the publication - one which was written by their series editor and was listed as recommended reading for potential contributors - I'd never work with them (would be embarrassed to have my name associated with such a poor publication).

[RachelN]

The subject title of the previous post should of course said Windstorm Creative!

[AlisonBurke]

Thanks for your input. Would you mind telling me which book it was you ordered?

Sincerely, Alison

[Victoria]

Windstorm Creative is the successor to a publisher called Pride & Imprints, which went out of business a couple of years ago. Internet-based publishers frequently vanish and then reappear in different guises, and since there's sometimes a cloud over the vanishment, it always pays to do some digging when a new publisher comes down the pike. I don't know why Pride & Imprints went belly-up; the usual reason for this to happen is financial overextension or poor sales.

I've been told that Pride & Imprints offered at least some subsidy contracts, but I don't have any proof of this.

I've never gotten any complaints about Windstorm, but I suspect that they don't do much in the way of marketing and distribution. They appear to publish quite a lot of science fiction and fantasy, but I've yet to see one of their books reviewed in any professional SF/F publications (including one that reviews a lot of books from independent and POD publishers), nor do they appear to maintain a presence at cons. Nor have I ever seen a Windstorm book in a specialty SF/F bookstore. IMO, a serious independent publisher should do better in this regard.

- Victoria
Writer Beware
www.sfwa.org/beware (http://www.sfwa.org/beware)

[RachelN]

Hi Alison,

The book I ordered was, "Farscape! The Best Websites and Factoids" (I was interested in the possibility of doing something similar).

I've done a lot of website reviewing in my time, and was very, very surprised at the 'quality' of the reviews. For example, all one 'review' consisted of was, "One of the largest on the web" - hardly much of a review! (and couldn't people easily find that out for themselves just surfing the net, without actually having to read the book?!) Lots of others were very skimpy too, plus most of the pages were half blank, which I wasn't too impressed with either (certainly didn't feel like good value for money).

[Windstorm Creative]

A couple of our authors came across this thread and suggested that I should respond. My name is Jennifer DiMarco, and I am the owner and publisher of Windstorm Creative.

First off, let me please extend my apologies to RachelN for the book in which she felt disappointed. No publisher likes to have potential customers feel they are not getting their money’s worth. While we strive to make our Internet guides as complete as possible, we cannot always hit the mark every time and on every page. I take your concerns seriously, and I will personally review that title in particular for improvements.

Additionally, if RachelN had contacted us directly regarding her dissatisfaction with the title she ordered, we would have refunded her money. No questions asked. If a book has imperfections, we’ll replace it. Free. This has always been our policy and will continue to be.

I would like to address the points raised by Victoria. Windstorm Creative did indeed originally arise from Pride & Imprints. I was originally one of Pride & Imprints’ authors when the opportunity arose to acquire the assets of the company. Beyond changing its name, I was determined to create a publishing house that would be author- and artist- friendly. As an author, I’ve been published by a large New York press and I’ve been burned by them too. I didn’t want that to happen to anyone working with Windstorm.

Just as every small business grows and expands, so have we. Windstorm is not an Internet-based publisher; we are a full-service, royalty-paying independent press with 150 authors in our catalog. We do not do POD or vanity publishing. As our resources have grown, so has our commitment to marketing and distribution. We attend regional conferences in the Pacific Northwest (we’ll be at Norwescon and Westercon this year, and have done other smaller cons as well). We work with all of the major distributors to increase the shelf presence of Windstorm titles. Are we on the shelves at every single Barnes and Noble outlet? No, but then try to find such a pervasive presence by any independent press. It’s not for lack of trying, believe me! I won’t bore you with the details of co-op deals and other industry hurdles that independent presses face in trying to compete with the major publishers. I can tell you that our titles are stocked by a great many independent bookstores throughout the country, and we are continually working at increasing our penetration into the major chains.

Please excuse the length of my post, but I was quite saddened to see Windstorm’s name in a thread dealing with things to “beware of.” I want to assure you that Windstorm is committed to those same ideals of fairness and responsibility to authors that SFWA believes in. It is what I founded the company on when I took it over! If you talk with any of our authors, I am sure you will find them quite happy to be a part of Windstorm.
Let me add, particularly for Victoria’s benefit, that if you would like to contact me to get further details about Windstorm I would be happy to correspond with you.

You may contact me directly at wsc@windstormcreative.com. We also encourage you to visit our website at www.windstormcreative.com where you will find information about who we are, what we publish, how we work with bookstores and how we work with authors.

[AlisonBurke]

Hi Jennifer,

I feel compelled to let you know I am so sorry to have caused any sadness on your part by posting a question on the Bewares Board at Absolute Write. My intention was only to hear of anyone else's experiences with Windstorm, but I understand now that the location of my post was not a fair move on my part. I could have posted the question in a more neutral setting. I apologize for my inconsideration.

When I first posted the question I was still in the process of researching your company, and with my first book contract I was perhaps over-cautious in worrying about the ramifications of 'signing on'. Perhaps most of us have been burned a little too often in the publishing industry, as you mention. At this point, however, I want to say that every experience I have had thus far with Windstorm has been extremely positive, and I am very impressed with your company's efforts as an independent publisher. I am sorry one person had a negative experience, but I don't want that to mar the excellent impression I have received on my own of your professional approach, high-quality product, open attitude, and informative website.

I am thrilled to be a part of the Windstorm family, and I hope my inquiry and the subsequent posts that followed on Absolute Write won't hurt our relationship. I appreciate your interest in my book and have complete confidence in my managing editor. Thank you so much, and feel free to contact me by e-mail if there is anything else I can do to clear this up. This message will be posted on the board as well.

Sincerely yours, Alison Burke

[RachelN]

Hi Jennifer,

I'm sorry my harsh words offended you. I was disappointed with the book as it didn't live up to my expectations at all, so am glad you will be reviewing the title. I'd never even contemplated asking for a refund (didn't order it direct from Windstorm), but that's nice to know that such a friendly policy exists.

Having read your informative post, and bearing in mind there have been no other complaints posted here, I'll keep an open mind and hope that was just a fluke.

Rachel

[Patricia]

Hello everyone,

This is an old thread, but I feel I have to contribute! I signed up with Windstorm Creative about six months ago. My second book is in the process of being published, and I'm working on my third, also to be published with Windstorm. I have already published one book with Time Media, and I've been writing/editing for about twelve years, so I'm not new to the business. Like everyone here, I've come across some not-so-nice people on my travels, and I've become a little wary in my old age.

I would like to say that my experience so far with Windstorm has been the best of my publishing career. I'm very conscious of our impact on the planet as individuals and as "the human race" so I love Windstorm's policy regarding resources. Everyone I've had dealings with in the company so far has not only met and exceeded my expectations, but has shown a willingness to go the extra mile with their writers. Regarding marketing, from what I can see they're working very hard at it! The design for the covers is exceptional, by any standards.

I'm proud to be associated with Windstorm and to anyone considering making a pitch to them, I'd say go ahead. Frankly, you should be so lucky!

Best wishes to all in their writing careers,
Patricia.

[debra beauchamp]

Jennifer:

I realize this is an old post but I thought I might be
able to get you to respond to me this way.

I have sent various e-mail and faxes concerning
the status of some manuscripts that I sent to
your publishing house in early June of this year.

To date, I have had not one response.

I hope to hear from you soon.

Thank you,
Debra MacDonald-Beauchamp
workonly12@hotmail.com

[SteveS]

I have to echo the frustration of not getting remotely timely responses. A friend of mine recommended Windstorm after Jennifer picked him up for a 5 book series and he was delighted with things and recommended me for their young adult series as I have published 8 kids books and am working on something I tought would be up their street. I pitched a number of ideas, and after about 2 months got a sure, send it along, so I responded with an honest question, which idea would they like to see developed. 8 month slater I still don't know. A friend of mine has done a number of covers for them, and has a query about the contract which has gone unanswered for 5 months. I honestly believe Windstorm have the best intentions but they are frustrating when it comes to communication.

Steve

[Slayrre]

Regretfully...Windstorm Creative has been dragging
their heels these past three months with regard to returning my communications regarding artwork, marketing, publishing dates, etc.

Apparently, this is a common problem with Windstorm (as indicated through communications posted by others on this board).

This leaves me questioning my commitment to Windstorm AND reconsidering the strong interest expressed by two other publishing companies early on.

And...while Windstorm Creative may be a solid publisher, they may not be the right publisher for Creations End (an RPG gaming book I wrote).

Gary Gygax, the originator of Dungeons & Dragons, communicated with me (via emails) suggesting that I go to White Wolf (a major RPG publisher). I however felt more comfortable with a smaller company because I (erroneously) believed that a smaller publisher would give
more attention to their projects.

In the beginning, Windstorm Creative supported this idea as they effectively convinced me of their intent to make Creations End a "shelf presence" in the RPG world, develop accessories such as comics based on the game, and seek a long term commitment by offering me a five-book contract.

This level of interest & commitment was expressed particularly well by the CEO of Windstorm (Jennifer DiMarco) during our initial phone conversations and before signing the contract that Windstorm offered.

However...since signing the contract (Nov 02)...the following has occured:

A) communication has been extremely poor and non-existent (as of the past three months);

B) when communication via phone last occurred... Windstorm continued to profess a strong interest in publishing Creations End but was very vague on providing specific dates; and...

C) as of today...has communicated no real progress toward artwork, marketing, etc.

Despite these unfortunate developments...the past year has provided me the time to strengthen, improve, and expand the game. There is no doubt that the current edition of Creations End is FAR MORE ENJOYABLE than the original submission which garnered the five book
contract.

So...at this juncture...I estimate that by the end of Jan 04... Windstorm will either re-affirm my faith in their commitment to publishing CE (a move I am willing to strongly support) or legal steps will have been taken allowing me to sign on with a different publisher.

So...in closing...this is, undoubtedely, a very critical time for Creations End...a time that has been forced upon me by the lack of communication by Windstorm.

Michael

[Cris DiMarco]

Hello, writers.

I think I may be able to shed some light on what's happening in terms of response times and, in some cases, a lack of response from WSC to those of you who have submitted work.

Steve and Debra – I’m sorry, I checked our logs and we have no record of your submissions. If you have not heard from us, I can only assume that your query or sample chapters were misrouted or MIA between your mailbox and ours. Additionally, I cannot imagine a question about a contract going unanswered for 5 months, but without more information it’s impossible for me to respond to that particular situation.

We get thousands of submissions and in truth, we try and take a look at every one of them. This takes time.

Every publisher has to put some guidelines in place in order to save everyone a lot of headaches. We spent a lot of time on our submission guidelines and we think they’re not only comprehensive, but will really give you a sense of whether or not your work is within the realm of what we publish. To that end, here are a few additional tips.

1. All submissions must include the following: A submission form and submission label (available from the website) and a SASE. Any submissions which do not have all of these three essential elements are destroyed.

2. If you haven't heard back from us -- or from any publisher -- after the designated waiting period (which is usually stated in the submission guidelines). It is okay to send a follow up letter. Include a SASE for response. Please don't phone, however, as that is generally frowned upon unless you're under contract.

3. We have a small staff and do our very best to get back to everyone as quickly as possible. Books we know aren't for us right off the bat which have the proper forms are returned quickly. Books which we would like to review are generally held longer. Unlike other situations where a publisher's silence means rejection, ours means that we're reading your work and considering it.

As a writer myself who has waited for both publishers and agents to return my calls, letters and queries, I understand how frustrating it is to wait. We honestly try to the best we can to get back to writers quickly.

As far as Slayrre's comments go, I am going to address them because he posted them openly in a public forum and the issues he raised are important ones.

Before I tackle his specific complaints, I will remind anyone considering working with an independent press or a small press that there are trade offs. The biggest pro for working with a smaller house is that you will hear from a real person with decision making power. Right now, I am the author/artist contact, so every single author and artist under contract with Windstorm who emails me with questions gets a response that I've either written myself or that my personal assistant has written from my notes to her. You get a lot of personalized interaction, but because of this, it may take me more than 24 hours to answer your email. It may take me a week or even two. But I will answer it.

Timely questions and requests are always addressed immediately -- email and phone messages are retrieved daily. Contract issues, readings, signings, tours, and other matters of this type are handled quickly. The writers and artists may feel that they're project is top priority, but they're not aware of the 50 other messages that also figure into a day's work.

In terms of Michael's (Slayrre's) specific issues, he *was* given a timeline and a production schedule, which we followed. That production schedule included information on publication date. We also addressed his questions regarding marketing on several occasions and gave him concrete information about how and when the book/game would be marketed.

His phone calls were returned in a timely manner. During the time the book was waiting in the layout queue, he didn't hear from us because we had no news for him and the project was on schedule. Additionally, we asked what he wanted to see on his cover and whether or not he had an artist/designer in mind -- which is completely unheard of in corporate publishing. Then we followed up on his ideas and suggestions.

In the end, it was the writer's own antagonistic attitude which soured the relationship.

We make every effort to be fair, to foster open communication and to provide an atmosphere where the writer has a lot of input into and control of the process. In some cases it's just a bad "fit" and the best thing we can do is release the unhappy writer and his or her project from the contract.

This is what we did. He is now free to take his game anywhere he'd like.

I hope this helps answer some additional questions about Windstorm. I can't promise I'll be able to post here regularly, but I will try and stop in now and then to address other questions and concerns. In the meantime, I wish all of you good luck in placing you work.

Sincerely,
Cris DiMarco
Senior Editor
Windstorm Creative
www.windstormcreative.com

[Wryy]

I am new to the board, and am writing to find out if anyone has ever had any experience with Windstorm Creative?

Wryy

[James D Macdonald]

Old-established Seattle area gay press, recently branching out into other genres. Why?

[Wryy]

Hi,

I was contacted about writing something for them. They are offering compensation of 15% of "what they get" on the book. They are saying they have a very large (in my view... 80,000 dollars per novel) marketing budget for their books.

I am wondering if anyone here has ever had any experiences with them, and what they thought. I have found a number of their books for sale, but wanted to check here before proceeding.

Wryy

[HapiSofi]

Wryy, royalties are normally paid on the cover price of the book, not the net profits.

Eighty thousand dollars is a huge promo budget for an unknown writer being published by a small house.

[James D Macdonald]

We don't know that Wryy is an unknown writer. He or she could be a top expert in his/her field, with a dozen publication credits.

But you're right, royalties are usually paid on gross, not net.

[vstrauss]

There's an earlier thread on Windstorm Creative, though it isn't coming up in the Search function--you may have to go back several pages to find it. Some of the comments, as I recall, weren't so complimentary.

I've never seen a Windstorm book in a bookstore--which is odd, if their publicity budgets are indeed so large. I'd ask some hard questions about distribution.

- Victoria

[Wryy]

How do I find the search function?

Wryy

[Wryy]

Sorry.. I found it.

Wryy

[CaoPaux]

Looks like they still pay on net. http://www.windstormcreative.com/

The divisions:

Blue Works (Young adult)
Cheshire Pond Retreat (Writers’ retreat)
Digital Leaf ePress (ebooks)
Fandom Press (“shared universe” fiction)
House with Bee (Art)
Immortal Day (Role-playing games)
Lightning Rod (Pop culture)
Little Blue Works (Children’s)
Orchard Academy (Educational)
Paper Frog Productions (Theater & film)
Windstorm (Fiction, music & poetry)

[KimJo]

So paying on net is a bad thing, right?

Just asking because their YA division is looking for "mystery series with a magical realism twist" and I happen to have written one.

[CaoPaux]

Paying on net is a bad deal for authors because they'll get less money for each book sold than the standard pay-on-cover-price contract. It's also subject to book-cooking abuse by shady publishers.

[James D. Macdonald]

Paying on net is non-standard, and results in lower income to the author.

If your book is publishable by one press, it's publishable by others. Go to the ones who pay royalties on gross first (all other things -- distribution and so on -- being equal).

In general, start at the top and work down. If you start at the bottom you'll never get to the top.

If they're your only choice, try to negotiate to a pay-on-gross situation. If they won't budge, get the highest advance you can because that advance is the only money you'll ever see.

Make sure the contract defines in great detail exactly what the word "net" means.

[KimJo]

Thanks, Uncle Jim. Great advice!

[ALake]

I'd like to update Absolute Writers on my experience with Windstorm Creative's nonfiction division, Full Spectrum. Back in Jan. 2003 I signed a contract and a year later turned in my 420 page manuscript. There were promises to publish my book in June 2004 and Barnes and Noble placed an order. Windstorm could not get its act together in time and pushed the date to Oct. 2004, with no apology to me and a total lack of personal communication. Same happened in October. I patiently waited for many more months because, according to the regular newsletter sent to authors, WC was having trouble launching the series due to staff turnover, etc.

By June 2005 I got completely fed up. My contract had expired in Jan. 2005 because they still hadn't published my book. I told them I needed a publish date or I'd pull my book. Still no promise, so I pulled it. Within literally 24 hours after I sent out inquiries to university presses, I received requests from 8. Within 2 weeks I had signed on with a reputable university press and they are going to publish my book.

As my first publisher, I have been exceedingly let down by Windstorm. I really had high hopes for them--they claim to put the author first. They promised me a 25,000 print run and the highest royalty "in the industry". Thanks to the delay, Barnes and Noble cannot sell my book; I now need to make plenty of updates; we missed the boat on two tourist seasons; and another book similar to it was released.

When I finally complained to WC, I was treated like a pariah for even raising any concern. Prior to that, when I'd courteously ask for updates and reasons, I'd get four-word emails in response. I just don't get them. If anyone has insight I'd love to know. Another author in the series (and we were both told our books helped anchor the series) was let go after two years of expecting her book to be published. WC edited and had her contracted manuscript for over a year before deciding they didn't want it.

If only I'd pulled mine sooner, but the experience turned out to have a silver lining.

Alison Lake

[Jaycinth]

First the comments. If anyone is confused about the difference between paying on gross and paying on net - an accountant speaks:

If you are paid on GROSS, they mean GROSS PROFITS. That means you are paid on everything your 'property' earns BEFORE any of the agency's expenses are deducted from the money.(GOOD)
If you are paid on NET, they mean NET PROFITS, and that equals what is left over after all credible related expenses (and sometimes some not so credible) are deducted from your 'property's' earnings. Technically, if you are paid on NET, you could find things like the 'portion of rent attributable to the amount of time spent on your manuscript monthly', toilet paper, and part of the expense from a staff birthday party deducted from your check.(NOT GOOD) I've seen people (not writers) who have been billed for the difference between their sales and the office expenses charged against them. I'm sure there are no questions on this....BUT...

I HAVE A QUESTION!

Why don't I see listings for Windstorm or any of its divisions on Preditors and Editors? By following this thread I've found out most of what I need to know, but, as always, I went to P&E first.

Hey, everyone, have a perkey day!!. (Way too much coffee, can I have some more?):Coffee:

[JerseyGirl1962]

Interesting, Jaycinth, that P&E doesn't have anything on them.

I wonder if Victoria has an update on them - maybe complaints, etc?

And maybe Dave K. will see this and put something up on his site.

~Nancy

[Christine N.]

Hmm, this is an interesting thread. I'm currently proofreading a novel that is going to be published by Windstorm. I won't reveal the author or the title, but I was contracted by the author to do the work, b/c they didn't feel that the publisher would be as through as they might have liked.

I will say that this author has published several books, but I don't know if this is their first from Windstorm.

[priceless1]

Hmm, this is an interesting thread. I'm currently proofreading a novel that is going to be published by Windstorm. I won't reveal the author or the title, but I was contracted by the author to do the work, b/c they didn't feel that the publisher would be as through as they might have liked.

I will say that this author has published several books, but I don't know if this is their first from Windstorm.
Christine, I'm confused. Are you saying that this person has a contract with this publisher but they're getting their ms edited by an outside source (you)? And the publisher allows this? What about their own editing department? Hmm.

[Christine N.]

I'm not content editing. I'm proofreading. They don't feel (and I'm paraphrasing) that the publisher will do a good enough job of catching all the errors. Honestly, this person's ms is pretty darn clean already. But yes, that's what's happening. Windstorm is already committed to publication.

This book is actually a reprint/updated version of a Bantam title from about ten years back. The story is really good, I'm enjoying reading it, and I can't say that I enjoy everything I proofread. Some things make my eyes hurt. Those are mostly unsubbed things.

[victoriastrauss]

I wonder if Victoria has an update on them - maybe complaints, etc?I've gotten a couple of complaints recently that echo Alison's--long publication delays, unprofessional behavior. I've also gotten a detailed complaint of unprofessional behavior from someone who was in a business relationship with Windstorm, which I don't want to describe for fear of identifying my source.

- Victoria

[Bleak House Books]

First the comments. If anyone is confused about the difference between paying on gross and paying on net - an accountant speaks:

If you are paid on GROSS, they mean GROSS PROFITS. That means you are paid on everything your 'property' earns BEFORE any of the agency's expenses are deducted from the money.(GOOD)
If you are paid on NET, they mean NET PROFITS, and that equals what is left over after all credible related expenses (and sometimes some not so credible) are deducted from your 'property's' earnings.

At the risk of opening a whole other can of worms, I feel as though there are some things that need pointing out.

The word AGENCY as it is used above may be misleading. As I understand it, we're talking about a PUBLISHER, not an AGENCY. I realize that the more general "agency" might work in other industries, but in this particular case I think it's important to be clear.

I also fear that your use of the word NET isn't allowing for the interpretation of COVER PRICE OF BOOK-DISCOUNT TO RETAILER (sometimes as high as 60% when going through a distributor). Far less nefarious than the shady publisher model. Of course, an author should make sure to understand what is meant by NET before signing any contract. Due dilligence.

[Silverhand]

Hello,

I have been working long and hard to find myself a small press.

Has anyone had dealings with Windstorm Creative, LTD.?

I have browsed their website and they have pubished ALOT of novels along the lines in which I write. They seem to be legit.

Any info would help.

Thank you.

[victoriastrauss]

Silverhand, I've merged your question about Windstorm with the existing thread on this publisher. If you read back through it, you'll see there are some serious questions.

- Victorai

[Mya Bell]

I notice several people in this thread cautioning against a writer accepting royalties on net.

Keep in mind that it's the percentage that determines the final amount. A 15 percent royalty on net may work out to the same (or better) than a 6 or 8 percent royalty on suggested list. I put together a chart on this a while back on WritersNet so people could see where the breakpoints were.

It also depends upon publisher policies on discounts. If the publisher doesn't give deep discounts (not all do), then 15 percent on net may actually work out higher than 6 or 8 percent on suggested list. It depends partly on the selling price of the book.

So, while royalties on suggested list are generally better, you can't make a blanket statement about it. You still have to work the numbers. A royalty of 8 percent on net is low, but 15 percent isn't bad, especially if deep discounts are not applied. Remember to take all factors into consideration.

--- Mya Bell

[Duncan J Macdonald]

I notice several people in this thread cautioning against a writer accepting royalties on net.

<snip>

So, while royalties on suggested list are generally better, you can't make a blanket statement about it. You still have to work the numbers. A royalty of 8 percent on net is low, but 15 percent isn't bad, especially if deep discounts are not applied. Remember to take all factors into consideration.

--- Mya BellOne of those factors that you need to take into account is what exactly does the publisher use to caculate 'net'? There have been scores of Hollywood movies where creative accounting practices have shown a net loss -- thereby denying any payments on net. Authors would be wise to do their best to discourage publishers to go down the Hollywood path.

Additionally, since agents make their money off of a percentage of the payments made to their authors, I would be surprised if agents liked 'net' terms any better than authors would.

Royalties based on 'net' do not make fudiciary sense to the author.

My dime, my opinion.

[DaveKuzminski]

Ask and ye shall receive (in the next update, that is). ;)

[CaoPaux]

This FAQ re: their contract looks new... http://www.windstormcreative.com/global/downloads/pubfaq.pdf

[victoriastrauss]

This is a problematic contract, to say the least.

The wording of the grant of rights, which states that the author is granting the publisher "an eighteen month exclusive option from date of submission to publish the book", is confusing. Does the publisher only hold rights for eighteen months? Going by the explanation of this clause, it seems clear that what they mean is that the publisher has eighteen months to publish.

Not so bad, although from their point of view it might make more sense to make that 18 months from the date of acceptance. But there's another issue. Nowhere in this contract does an actual grant term appear--i.e., it's never said what period of time is covered by the grant of rights. The reversion clause, which leaves reversion entirely to the discretion of the publisher (not good--ideally, there should be some sort of objective standard for reversion), suggests that what they intend is life-of-copyright--but that isn't ever stated anywhere.

Royalties are 15% of net. With an apparently straight face, they describe this as "the highest percentage offered in the industry today; it is more than 50% higher than average." Even if "average" were 7%, as they claim (which it isn't), you probably wouldn't be significantly worse off with a 7% royalty paid on cover price than with a 15% royalty paid on net--especially with a publisher that probably doesn't have a lot of bookstore presence.

They require authors to register their own copyrights. In a wonderful piece of spin, they present this as better than the way it's usually done. "In 1993 (one year after she bought Windstorm and became CEO), author Jennifer DiMarco negotiated the change that she, as the author, would copyright her work herself. After signing with a corporate press in New York that claimed they would copyright her book in her name for her, she had to fight a long, hard battle to be given the vital TX number that made her the legal owner of her own book. From 1993 forward, authors have had the control of how they copyright their books at Windstorm." Say what? Either this is deliberately misleading, or the folks at Windstorm don't have a very good understanding of copyright.

The option clause claims first refusal of any subsequent works over 30,000 words featuring the same characters. For series authors, this could amount to a perpetual option clause. It also doesn't seem to give authors the right to refuse an offer of publication. (Whoever wrote the FAQ has the nerve to describe this as "the most author-centric 'first right of refusal' clause I have ever read let alone drafted in my life." Not.)

There are other problems, but I won't bore you all. I sure wouldn't sign a contract like this.

- Victoria

[LloydBrown]

Victoria did a good job of covering the generalities, but I'll add this for RPG writers who chance upon Windstorm. As a game retailer for 5 years, I never once ordered an RPG book by Windstorm Creative. They don't seem to have an account with Alliance Games, the largest distributor in the industry, or any other distributor I worked with (ACD, Premier Hobby, Gameboard, GAMUS, Excelsior, and Centurion).

I never saw them at GenCon, the largest convention in the gaming industry, or at the GAMA Trade Show, the only trade show in gaming.

Where are they selling these books? Their Amazon rankings are usually in the millions, which means single-digit sales. For RPGS, none of their titles seems to have any Amazon rank at all. They're not selling them through distribution (and by extension to game stores). They're not selling them through Amazon. They're not selling them directly at conventions. In short, they're not selling any RPG books.

Regardless of their contract wording, their communication, their marketing, or anything, if they don't sell books, they're a poor publisher.

[CaoPaux]

Heh. What brought this to mind was this call for subs: http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24728

[victoriastrauss]

Ah. Well, meddling person that I am, I've posted a link to this thread in that other thread.

- Victoria

[CaoPaux]

Aww, beat me to it. :D

[Anders]

I wish that I had found this thread about two years ago. It would have definitely saved me from the headaches that I endured while under contract with Windstorm.

Let me start by saying that the point of my adding to this thread is to encourage writers (especially new, unpublished or unestablished ones) to REALLY REALLY do research before they agree to signing with a publisher. It is extremely important that a writer finds out what kind of publisher they are getting involved with. Unfortunately, there seems to be a blurry line between a Full Service Publisher and a Publish on Demand firm, something that I now feel that Windstorm takes advantage of. My experiences lead me to the conclusion that Windstorm is indeed a glorified POD - in other words, marketing does not exist and they rely seemingly entirely on authors to promote and sell their own books. While maybe this is not a scam, per se, it is a bit shady in that authors are led to believe that there is a marketing team and (at least in my case) an $80,000 marketing budget behind each book. I was never able to receive confirmation that this was indeed the case.

My experiences mirror others in this thread, but I will take the time to itemize my experiences, in hope that it will be of use to others:



print date pushed at least three times - book finally printed nearly a year after original suggested date
horrible communication - after my book's original editor left the company, email responses from Windstorm were sporadic and occasionally completely neglected
print-run exaggerated - I received information that a 25,000 book run would happen - not even close - they seemed to print copies only as they were ordered by me or through their website, which makes me now question what defines Windstorm as a full service publishing company and not a POD firm?
marketing budget ridiculously exaggerated - this comment I have seen before in various forums and chat groups and it rings true with me as well: I also received printed information that my marketing budget would be $80,000. Again, not even close. Several months ago I asked for an itemization of how my $80,000 had been / was being used to promote the book - no concrete answer, just some dribble about "market research". The conclusion that I now make is that the marketing of a Windstorm book is done by the authors ONLY. I realized that if I didn't work to sell the book, it wouldn't sell.
endorsement not included in final printed book - one of my medical endorsements disappeared, was never found, and then was swept under the rug every time I asked about getting it in the book.
marketing materials never sent - I live in Sweden, so in order to try to facilitate marketing in the states (realizing that Windstorm was doing nothing) I asked for "press kits" to be sent to members of my family in California - never happened.
incorrect royalty statement/check - because my first statement was for under 50$, and apparently Windstorm does not issue checks for under 50$ (huh?), I was told that the amount would be added to the following statement and royalty check. It never was. When I brought this up with Windstorm on the phone, I was assured that it would be taken care of immediately. That was nearly five months ago. To this day, I have not received the difference.
book not available - while the book had been "listed" with Amazon and Barnes and Noble, etc, it seemed to never be available. Several potential customers who attempted to order the book via those online firms never did get it, instead received messages that the book was out of print. Additionally, no cover picture was ever added to Amazon's database, despite constant requests.
(this is my favorite) mailing address lost repeatedly - This is perhaps petty, but for me it seems reflective of larger in-house issues - shortly after I began work on the book, I moved. I immediately made Windstorm aware of my address. Mail continued to be sent to my old address, despite my providing Windstorm (and just about every member of its remote "staff") with the correct address over and over again. Even in my final email exchange, Windstorm asked for my mailing address again, saying that they didn't have the new one on file. Sometimes all you can do is laugh. I did.
I'm the bad guy - Bringing concerns and problems to Windstorm's attention will only bring grief. The company seems to have a very hard time taking criticism, and reacts quite harshly when unable to answer questions / provide information. Emails sent to Windstorm voicing frustration are seen as (and, sadly, yes, I quote) "angry and emotional". I view this as being horribly unprofessional - a company that pretends like it has no problems and can not admit to making mistakes does not leave itself open for improvement.
Essentially, me no have fun with Windstorm. And it is only fair to point out that this is what I went through. It seems that there are a couple writers out there who have nothing but positive things to say about them. And I am happy for those authors even though my experiences with Windstorm were negative.

What have I learned? A lot.

Don't be afraid to ask questions.

Don't jump at the first contract that is flung your way.

Do research.

Find out about marketing aspects.

Talk to authors who are signed before you sign.

Get your hands on a sample book so that you know the quality.

Find out what the size of a publishing company is, if they have in-house staff, and whether or not their books are easily purchased/found.

Being able to say "I'm published" is worth nothing if your publishing company doesn't care about you.

My contract with Windstorm is now terminated and I am happy to have the experience behind me. Be careful: it's a dog eat author world out there sometimes.

[DeadlyAccurate]

I'm the bad guy - Bringing concerns and problems to Windstorm's attention will only bring grief. The company seems to have a very hard time taking criticism, and reacts quite harshly when unable to answer questions / provide information. Emails sent to Windstorm voicing frustration are seen as (and, sadly, yes, I quote) "angry and emotional". I view this as being horribly unprofessional - a company that pretends like it has no problems and can not admit to making mistakes does not leave itself open for improvement.

Getting angry about any complaints or criticism is one of the characteristic of a sociopath, and a lot of sociopaths are con artists and scammers. You can see it rather consistently on this board when they appear to defend themselves. No matter how mild the complaint, no matter how legitimate it might be, they get very angry and defensive about any perceived criticism and feel no remorse about passing the blame to others.

I should add that not all sociopaths are criminals (and not all criminals are sociopaths), and most people have known one or two in their lives. The non-criminal sociopaths are often the people you feel are kept in check only because they fear the repercussions of society's rules.*

*I am not a psychologist, merely someone with a mild interest in psychology, so take my words for what they're worth.

[JerseyGirl1962]

incorrect royalty statement/check - because my first statement was for under 50$, and apparently Windstorm does not issue checks for under 50$ (huh?), I was told that the amount would be added to the following statement and royalty check. It never was. When I brought this up with Windstorm on the phone, I was assured that it would be taken care of immediately. That was nearly five months ago. To this day, I have not received the difference.
I'm the bad guy - Bringing concerns and problems to Windstorm's attention will only bring grief. The company seems to have a very hard time taking criticism, and reacts quite harshly when unable to answer questions / provide information. Emails sent to Windstorm voicing frustration are seen as (and, sadly, yes, I quote) "angry and emotional". I view this as being horribly unprofessional - a company that pretends like it has no problems and can not admit to making mistakes does not leave itself open for improvement.



I feel for you. I'm glad you finally managed to get away from these people.


I quoted the 2 above bullet points on purpose. To the regulars on AW - does this remind you of a certain "traditional publisher"?


Anders, you're not alone, unfortunately. You might want to check out the new Publish America thread, too. Similar problems with royalty checks, "tone" emails/letters, among other things.


~Nancy

[james1611]

Hello all,

I sumitted a query to WINDSTORM CREATIVE, and recently recieved a phone call and email requesting that i send my complete manuscript, synopsis, and cover pdf...(I told them I already had one...it looks great... www.chroniclesofsoone.bravehost.com (http://www.chroniclesofsoone.bravehost.com) )

The cover work was done pro-bono, don't worry...anyway

I have read the previous thread concerning Windstorm and now I'm not sure if I should submit to them or not...people had very unkind things to say and yet the owner had posted replies to answer some of that and at least one or two of their authors had also posted to say they had great experiences with them.

I'm looking for input, so don't hold back...I haven't exhausted my submission abilities at all...still submitting to TOR, DAW, knopf, Wizards of the Coast, Moody Press, etc...with my christian fiction novel.

I probably already know what you'll say... but say on...the input helps...I've rencently decided to hold on any self publishing through LULU.com although I had sent review copies to an Author and a Professor of Literature that agreed to review it for me...

thanks,
James1611

[Sassenach]

Hello all,

I sumitted a query to WINDSTORM CREATIVE, and recently recieved a phone call and email requesting that i send my complete manuscript, synopsis, and cover pdf...(I told them I already had one...it looks great... www.chroniclesofsoone.bravehost.com (http://www.chroniclesofsoone.bravehost.com) )

The cover work was done pro-bono, don't worry...anyway

I have read the previous thread concerning Windstorm and now I'm not sure if I should submit to them or not...people had very unkind things to say and yet the owner had posted replies to answer some of that and at least one or two of their authors had also posted to say they had great experiences with them.

I'm looking for input, so don't hold back...I haven't exhausted my submission abilities at all...still submitting to TOR, DAW, knopf, Wizards of the Coast, Moody Press, etc...with my christian fiction novel.

I probably already know what you'll say... but say on...the input helps...I've rencently decided to hold on any self publishing through LULU.com although I had sent review copies to an Author and a Professor of Literature that agreed to review it for me...

thanks,
James1611


Do Tor and Knopf have Christian imprints?

[CaoPaux]

Do Tor and Knopf have Christian imprints?WOTC sure don't.

[Sheryl Nantus]

did you do any research before this shotgun approach?

[james1611]

I researched those that publish science fiction / fantasy...I did not notice that they were opposed to a christian element to the story. It is definitely a sci-fi and fantasy combination, but with a christian bent...would they not consider such a story, even if they don't say so?

James

[Aconite]

I have read the previous thread concerning Windstorm and now I'm not sure if I should submit to them or not...people had very unkind things to say and yet the owner had posted replies to answer some of that and at least one or two of their authors had also posted to say they had great experiences with them.Hi, James. Did you read what the experts in the thread had to say about Windstorm's replies? Did you notice there were questions Windstorm never answered, no matter how many times the experts asked?

Windstorm is trying to sell you something. The experts aren't. Who has more incentive to tell you the truth?

This thread will probably end up being merged with the Windstorm one, so look for it there if it disappears.

[Aconite]

I researched those that publish science fiction / fantasy...I did not notice that they were opposed to a christian element to the story. It is definitely a sci-fi and fantasy combination, but with a christian bent...would they not consider such a story, even if they don't say so?I think the confusion comes from your identification of it as a Christian novel but your listing of SF/F publishers.

There is no reason a SF/F publisher would reject a novel simply for Christian content. If it's a Christian novel with SF/F trappings, though, you may run into problems, as in my (admittedly, not vast) experience, Christian novels tend to be structured and prioritized differently than most other kinds of novels.

[victoriastrauss]

To prevent thread proliferation, I'm merging James's question with the main thread on Windstorm Creative.

- Victoria

[james1611]

the novel is set in a separate creation of God, another univerese if you will, and there are discussions of God as creator and redeemer. The main premise is that mankind in this setting is caught in a struggle between fallen angels and God. These angels have instigated a devastating interplanetary racial war among the clans of humanity.

The protagonist and his clan are a warrior people that possess psycho-kinetic abilities and everyone utilizes high technology and weaponry in addition to interplanetary space travel.

What would you classify it as...decidely christian that may encounter problems with a secular publisher or it doesn't matter?

thanks,
james

[James D. Macdonald]

Being religious isn't a bar to getting published by a large mainstream house.

[Aconite]

What would you classify it as...decidely christian that may encounter problems with a secular publisher or it doesn't matter?I think it wouldn't be possible to say, without reading the book. As I mentioned above, though, Christian content alone would not disqualify it with secular SF/F publishers. Look at Russell's The Sparrow, or Brust's To Reign in Hell, just as examples off the top of my head.

ETA: Sharon Shinn's books, too, come to think of it. I'm sure I could think of more if I'd had more sleep.

[victoriastrauss]

Or Hal Duncan's Vellum, or Philip Pullman's His Dark Materials trilogy. War in heaven seems to be a popular theme these days.

- Victoria

[james1611]

Well if heavenly and spirtual warfare are popular then I hope mine can be picked up for publishing. I'm just adding some additions to the formula with the sci-fi and alternate creation setting...

here's hoping...

back on windstorm...Victoria...it doesn't sound like a good place to start does it?

James

[Anders]

I sumitted a query to WINDSTORM CREATIVE, and recently recieved a phone call and email requesting that i send my complete manuscript, synopsis, and cover pdf...(I told them I already had one...it looks great... www.chroniclesofsoone.bravehost.com (http://www.chroniclesofsoone.bravehost.com) )

The cover work was done pro-bono, don't worry...anyway

I have read the previous thread concerning Windstorm and now I'm not sure if I should submit to them or not...people had very unkind things to say and yet the owner had posted replies to answer some of that and at least one or two of their authors had also posted to say they had great experiences with them.

James- formerly under contract with Windstorm, I can only speak from my own experiences (see previous post of mine in this thread), though there seems to be a general consensus about Windstorm. After my last post to this thread, I received an email from their legal "department" maintaining their good faith, explaining that sending me 25 free books (to send out myself, as review copies) was an extremely kind gesture. Kind, maybe, but if this is how they spend an invisible 80,000 marketing budget, that breaks down to 3,200 invisible $ per book. Cost effective? Who knows. If you can't see it, you can't spend it.

BUT just because I received no marketing doesn't mean you won't. Keep your guard up! Best of luck!

[james1611]

While i have been investigating Windstorm to be sure i want to continue with the submission, I have been searching Amazon and their own bookstore site for books and have found that so far, the majority don't appear to have available cover images. Even on Amazon and I guess especially on Amazon, very few had cover images available and correct me if i'm wrong but if you are a small publisher and are going to be restricted to primarily web based books sales, then the cover image is vital!?

I know personally that its the first thing i notice and if it stinks, i move on quickly. Now if there isn't one at all...well then who in the world is going to buy it? It seems to be a lack of posting these images to the online bookstore sites like amazon, and isn't that essentially cutting your marketing plan off at the knees not to make this a priority with web based sales, or to have a very poorly done cover, that smacks of cheap, and quick?

This brings me to my other reservation...the covers by and large that i have found on their site and at amazon, do not look good at all. One I noticed had no color, just a sketch looking drawing of two people standing there, and it did not look very professional to me. Others looked like they came from gallery cover photos and told me nothing about the context or content of the story.

This along with the posts about not having good contact and publishing delays and such really makes me think twice about pursuing it further...keep in mind I don't have anything against a smaller publisher or web based sales and that kind of thing that is well known about smaller publishers, but if that is your restriction, and the web is your big market, then shouldn't one at least appear to do that part of it well? What else is there, if you've not given your best with what you can do as a small publisher...obscurity seems to be the answer.

james

[HapiSofi]

James1611, why do you keep asking a question when you already know the answer? I'm not saying we know the answer. I'm saying that you do.

The legit publishing houses you've listed have no aversion to publishing religiously oriented material, as long as it meets with all their other usual specifications -- i.e., it's well written, absorbing, moves along at a fair clip, etc.

[AnneMarble]

Do Tor and Knopf have Christian imprints?
Under their Force imprint, Tor did publish Judgement Day (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0765309157/qid=1146881771/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-5656204-5192658?s=books&v=glance&n=283155), an "end days" novel (although not the usual "end days" novel). Not the usual Tor novel, either. I don't know about other stores, but my Borders shelves it in the inspirational fiction section. So the answer for Tor is "No, but they won't let that stop them if they like the book enough."

Also, there are a lot of books published by mainstream publishing that are religious or spiritual in some way without being what you might find in the religious section of the story. Ever read William Peter Blatty's Legion? That was part serial killer novel, part cop learning about the Catholic faith (and faith in general). I still remember it years later, so I guess it worked. :) And there are lots of mainstream thrillers using religion in stories about everything from Jesus clones to the Pope to the Apocalypse and plagues.

[Colleen Madonna Floo]

I work with Windstorm and have had no problems with them. If I need to contact them, I email through the correct channel or I call them directly. I have spoken with Jennifer and Chris on the phone several times. I have left messages that were returned, as well.

I don't mind being paid on net. Some folks do. So don't work with Windstorm, if you don't like their payments or contract. There are enough of us who will work with Windstorm to keep them in business. Are there enough publishers out there interested in your work to keep you in business? If so, "write" on for you!

As for self publishing, give me a break. Anyone can self publish. Why pay to have your words in print? I am a professional who is paid to write. I have never and never will pay someone to publish my work. I have not always been paid top dollar, but I didn't start out thinking I deserved what seasoned writers were earning. I have written for entities as diverse as writeforcash, Alaska Business Monthly Magazine, educational testing companies, as well as Chelsea House, Mason Crest, and Windstorm Creative's Orchard Academy Press. I hope to continue to increase my publication credits and continue to increase my pay over time. I don't believe there is anything wrong with working one's way up the ladder. Self Publishing, however, is just buying a spot on the bottom rung.

Windstorm Creative's folks have been great to me. Is every writer going to be happy there? Probably not. Are they going to be happy with every writer? Probably not.

They are, however, a company that stands behind its writers, if its writers stand behind them. Publishing is not always a smooth process. Problems occur. Unfortunately, some folks think their books are the only ones going to the presses...that's not true. Now and then, delays occur. I am pleased to say that I just had a number of books published by Windstorm and have more coming out soon.

Will I promote them? YOU BET. Will I work with Windstorm to increase my sales? YOU BET. I was at the birth of these books and want to be a part of their lives, as well.

For those of you who are just anti-Windstorm completely...I'm sorry you feel that way. I wish you success wherever you go. For others asking about Windstorm Creative, make up your own minds about Windstorm Creative by interacting with them on your own.

I've edited this, as some felt it was "snotty." I wish you all well. Feel free to search my name at amazon.com. I've got plenty of titles listed there.


A Happy Windstorm Author,
Colleen Madonna Flood Williams

[Aconite]

Don't like their contract? Hmmm...well, do the math and see what no contract gets you. Do the math and see what a contract with a self publishing company COSTS you. Or continue to think that you are the next Stephen King and you deserve much more than what Windstorm has to offer. See if that gets your title in print. Wow, way to set up a false dilemma there: Either go with Windstorm, or self-publish (and you seem hazy on the difference between self-publishing and vanity publishing)--or think you're Stephen King, because the Big Publishers don't take anybody but Big Name Authors (and who do we think we are to deserve better than what you've got, anyway? Which, by the way, is a pretty snotty remark of yours).

That leaves out a host of other options that actually exist, like publishing with the big houses without being a BNA and publishing with reputable small presses. It also ignores that when you compare actual costs and profits of Windstorm's plan to actual costs and profits of self-publishing, self-publishing may be the better deal. And I don't say that lightly, because I think self-publishing is right for very few people. But I think Windstorm's plan is right for even fewer.

Here's a shocker: Authors don't often "work their way up" the publishing ladder. Authors with New York publishing house contracts don't have them because they piddled around with presses like Windstorm and "worked their way up." They have them because they wrote damned good books of quality and caught the interest of big publishers with those books when they submitted them. Where you start out is where you tend to end up.

Try this: Google the names of the people who have spoken out against Windstorm's plan. Or type their names into the Amazon search engine. Now do the same with Windstorm's defenders. Who are the more successful authors? Whose advice makes more sense to take, if you, too, want to be a successful author?

[Sassenach]

A publisher with a typo in their Mission Statement is a publisher I am skeptical about:

Our Mission Statement


To publish timeless, innovative books that push the limits of their genre. To maintain corporate press influence without loosing our independent press soul. To remember that without authors, there is no need for publishers.

[Bartholomew]

A publisher with a typo in their Mission Statement is a publisher I am skeptical about:

Our Mission Statement


To publish timeless, innovative books that push the limits of their genre. To maintain corporate press influence without loosing our independent press soul. To remember that without authors, there is no need for publishers.

HUGE Red Flag.

I'd steer clear.

[victoriastrauss]

Absent any of the other complaints about Windstorm, that terrible (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=445422&postcount=42) contract (http://www.windstormcreative.com/global/downloads/pubfaq.pdf) is reason enough to steer clear.

- Victoria

[LloydBrown]

I like Uncle Jim's saying that if your book's good enough for one publisher, it's good enough for more than one. Find one of those other publishers.

[james1611]

Since posting my reservations concerning windstorms lack of covers to be found or displayed on amazon and so forth, I recieved an email from their author management team telling me to find a different home for my manuscript.

I don't think I stated anything but what I actually saw to be the case. And it raised obvious questions that others stated had obvious answers.

Is it wrong to seek advice from fellow writers in these matters?

At any rate, I guess they were offended by my reservations and asked that I should probably not submit further materials as previously requested.

Since they view these posts...To Windstorm, I have nothing against you personally, but I do think the issues raised should be addressed for your authors sakes, since the primary market for smaller publishers is the internet and places like amazon.com and if covers are not well done and then posted on those sites promptly, books are unlikely to be sold in a way that would be maximizing profits to you or your authors.

That is simply an observation. That being said, I had decided to probably not continue the submission since I already have a professional cover and so forth and could likely make better use of the internet and at a quicker pace, and at a higher return on each book sold by simply self publishing through lulu.com...but I fully intend to wait on lasts resorts and take the sound advice of experienced authors on this board who say "start at the top and work your way down!"

peace,
James

[Aconite]

James, no reputable publisher takes revenge on its authors for asking questions. You didn't do anything wrong.

[Ben04030201]

I work for Windstorm Creative as part of their Author Management Team -- the team that works together to make sure that our contracted authors receive responses to their questions within 48 hours or less. I've worked in this position for only two months but, when I was still in college, I interned for Windstorm for three summers and have worked part-time for their marketing and production departments.

It is a general policy at Windstorm not to post on BBs. Staff simply aren't allotted time to police the Internet and so Windstorm tries to put as much information as we can at our own webcenter and answer questions that way (like at www.windstormcreative.com/global/contracts.htm (http://www.windstormcreative.com/global/contracts.htm)). But, because I'm off work today, I thought I'd post a little something because I'm a strong supporter of Windstorm and the very human and very decent staff that make it different and better than other presses.

Though I understand that every publisher appears on watchdog BBs at one time or another, and that Windstorm cannot be all things to all people, Windstorm does have a long-standing policy about not "convincing" authors to sign with us. If authors are posting that they are uncomfortable with something about the company, then it's in no one's best interest for that author to move forward with us -- to send a manuscript that would then be reviewed, critiqued and possibly offered a contract -- only to not agree to publish with us.

The Author Management Team would write to them: >>If you feel uncomfortable in any way signing with Windstorm, then by no means should you send your manuscript -- it will be a waste of your time and money. We are not in the business of "convincing" any author to sign with us -- we simply are as we present at our webcenter and can't possibly be more honest and straight-forward. Thank you for contacting us about your book. We wish you the best of luck with another publisher. Should you decide to move forward with Windstorm in the future we would be open to the idea.<< (excerpt from message)

Windstorm has sent out this message twice in seventeen years. I would think that instead of trying to fill an author's head with double-talk that this approach would be appreciated. Windstorm doesn't want an author to waste our time or theirs.

It's unfortunate that the hard work we're trying to do here at Windstorm -- and our long track record of authors who bring us multiple books long past any first right of refusal clause -- doesn't seem to be taken into account on the BBs. From my own review of the boards, it seems that only authors who have never worked with us or who have been released from contract have something negative to say. I've also found that this is true with other publishers.

Everyone is entitled to ask questions. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I'm pleased to work for a company that doesn't try to sweet-talk authors into contracts. We are as we present and I don't know of any other press as open as Windstorm -- with contracts and facts and figures all online.

But that's just me :) Thanks.

Ben

[Tilly]

The Author Management Team would write to them: >>If you feel uncomfortable in any way signing with Windstorm, then by no means should you send your manuscript -- it will be a waste of your time and money.

Hi Ben,

Why would it cost authors their money?

[Kasey Mackenzie]

I assume he means postage, printing the manuscript, etc. But I completely disagree with his assertion that writers shouldn't be asking questions on BBs about Windstorm. Certainly I think writers should ideally ask those questions BEFORE submitting, but they have the right to do so at any time. Asking those questions is not bad-mouthing the company and shouldn't be taken in that light. Or insinuated that it is, at any rate.

[LloydBrown]

I'm a strong supporter of Windstorm and the very human and very decent staff that make it different and better than other presses.

Awww, isn't that sweet?

When I want nice talk, I'll call my mom. I send a manuscript to a publisher so that we can sell it to readers.

Do you want a huge influx of good manuscripts, with no hesitation on an author's part at all? Sell a lot of books. It really all comes down to that. That's it. Tell us that you've sold 20,000 of something. Anything.

If you tell me your best-selling title has sold fewer than a couple of thousand copies, you won't convince me that Windstorm is a viable market. Windstorm claims to have been around for 17 years? Show me your best seller! I estimate 150+ titles on your website. Which one's the runaway success?

[stageman2]

I'm under contract to Windstorm, but I can see they check these posts, so I'm afraid to be too specific. All I can say is STAY AWAY.

[Areane_Creator]

All right, now I suppose it's time for me to throw my two cents in. I am also under contract with Windstorm and I have to say that it's been great (I can't give too much of an opinion on after-sales, however, being that my first two books are still going through editing). I don't have to repeat what others have said I just have to say this: it's true that Windstorm may not be for everyone. They're independent, like they say on their website, and they are smaller then other companies. They won't be able to give you the same huge budget and access a big publishing house can, but you'll never be backlisted. Jennifer Dimarco, the CEO, is a published author herself ( her books making the Seattle Times Bestseller's list for quite a while) She was in the big leagues and she didn't like it. She was just a number to them and, after messing with her story and cover art so much that she couldn't stand it, she decided to get out. She bought Windstorm when it was going under and made it more author-centric. Many Windstorm writers have been published by the bigger publishers (i.e Random House, Simon and Schuster, etc.) and have opted for something more personal. As Jennifer will tell you, if you think your book is A list and will sell very then well by all means, submit to a large publishing house. The knowledge that a book that doesn't get a huge response in about ten days to two weeks in a large house is backlisted may make some authors reconsider, however.

As for royalties, they'll be the first to tell you that you won't make as much in independent publishing as you will with a big house, but at least you're making SOMETHING. Their general deal is an author with five books with them normally makes enough to write full-time ($40,000 to $50,000 a year) Personally, I'm good with that. Sending out queries and trying to get my foot in the door of a New York Publishing house wasn't making me anything. As for being on net, their whole idea is that the author make more then the house when it's all said and done (the author gets about 15% of the profits and they make 13%) They also take some of the money they make and roll it back into your advertising fund so, based on how much you sale, your budget rises.

Personally, I think Windstorm has been great for me so far, but I've been through the self-publishing deal and know how to sell my books. If you can't sell it, then don't go in to independent publishing.

[Tilly]

The more defences are posted about this company, the worse it comes across.


The knowledge that a book that doesn't get a huge response in about ten days to two weeks in a large house is backlisted may make some authors reconsider, however.

Right. Um, no. A publisher's backlist consists of its older titles that are being kept in print. So by definition, this is wrong.

As for royalties, they'll be the first to tell you that you won't make as much in independent publishing as you will with a big house, but at least you're making SOMETHING. Their general deal is an author with five books with them normally makes enough to write full-time ($40,000 to $50,000 a year) Personally, I'm good with that.

I would be too, if I believed a word of it.

Sending out queries and trying to get my foot in the door of a New York Publishing house wasn't making me anything.

Well, no, payment wouldn't be made until you're accepted. The idea is to keep going until you succeed, if that's the path you've chosen.

Personally, I think Windstorm has been great for me so far, but I've been through the self-publishing deal and know how to sell my books. If you can't sell it, then don't go in to independent publishing.

I'm glad you're happy, and I hope everything works out for you.

[Aconite]

I'm more than a little concerned about the lack of publishing knowledge the Windstorm authors are displaying on this thread, because I'm worried they may have gone with Windstorm because of misunderstandings about how commercial publication works.

Ten days to two weeks before backlisted?! Never backlisted at Windstorm? How, exactly, will Windstorm keep every single one of their titles on the frontlist forever? Five books make an author $40-50,000 a year?! Are any of Windstorm's authors actually doing that, or is it merely part of the plan?

If Windstorm truly works for you, great. But I think you may be under some misconceptions about what you can expect from both Windstorm and commercial publishers. Best of luck to you.

[roach]

It would really help Windstorm's supporters if they provided specifics to back up their claims. "Many Windstorm writers have been published by the bigger publishers (i.e Random House, Simon and Schuster, etc.) and have opted for something more personal." I'd like to know which authors these are? It'd also help if an author who has actually been published (not just in the editing stage) posted her experiences. Preferably one who has multiple books with Windstorm and is making a living off of them.

[Sassenach]

Tell me you're joking.

All right, now I suppose it's time for me to throw my two cents in. I am also under contract with Windstorm and I have to say that it's been great (I can't give too much of an opinion on after-sales, however, being that my first two books are still going through editing). I don't have to repeat what others have said I just have to say this: it's true that Windstorm may not be for everyone. They're independent, like they say on their website, and they are smaller then other companies. They won't be able to give you the same huge budget and access a big publishing house can, but you'll never be backlisted. Jennifer Dimarco, the CEO, is a published author herself ( her books making the Seattle Times Bestseller's list for quite a while) She was in the big leagues and she didn't like it. Sure...who'd want to be in the big leagues, right? This is making my bull**** meter ping like crazy. Perhaps the Seattle Times bestseler list is a big deal in the Northwest, but it hardly puts an author into the 'big leagues'. As far as I can gell from a quick Amazon search, all her books were Windstorm titles.She was just a number to them and, after messing with her story and cover art so much that she couldn't stand it, she decided to get out. She bought Windstorm when it was going under and made it more author-centric. Many Windstorm writers have been published by the bigger publishers (i.e Random House, Simon and Schuster, etc.) and have opted for something more personal. Sure. Because it's the personal touch that's really important. Who'd want to be published by Random House when you could be published by Windstorm, right? As Jennifer will tell you, if you think your book is A list and will sell very then well by all means, submit to a large publishing house. The knowledge that a book that doesn't get a huge response in about ten days to two weeks in a large house is backlisted may make some authors reconsider, however. More Jennifer wisdom. Wrong, though.

As for royalties, they'll be the first to tell you that you won't make as much in independent publishing as you will with a big house, but at least you're making SOMETHING. Their general deal is an author with five books with them normally makes enough to write full-time ($40,000 to $50,000 a year) I'd be interested in knowing the number of Windstorm authors in that category. Personally, I'm good with that. Sending out queries and trying to get my foot in the door of a New York Publishing house wasn't making me anything. As for being on net, their whole idea is that the author make more then the house when it's all said and done (the author gets about 15% of the profits and they make 13%) They also take some of the money they make and roll it back into your advertising fund so, based on how much you sale, your budget rises.

Personally, I think Windstorm has been great for me so far, but I've been through the self-publishing deal and know how to sell my books. If you can't sell it, then don't go in to independent publishing.

Thanks for posting Jennifer.

[Lauri B]

FWIW, I checked many of the Windstorm titles on Bookscan. The good news is that lots of them are on there (which means that Windstorm has some kind of distribution in place). The bad news is that almost none of them have sold anything at all. I'm not sure whether Jennifer DiMarco has written other books under another name or the books she published with other publishers are now out of print, but the current titles listed under her name for Bookscan are published by Windstorm and another publisher called Pride Imprints. Windstorm seems perfectly legit, although not particularly successful. Lots of independent publishers are in the same boat.

[victoriastrauss]

As for being on net, their whole idea is that the author make more then the house when it's all said and done (the author gets about 15% of the profits and they make 13%)Who gets the other 72%?

This is the most confused argument in favor of net royalties that I've ever seen. In any case, if the aim were really for the author to make more than the house (and frankly, I don't believe it; it just doesn't make business sense, and if this is what Windstorm is telling its authors, it's seriously misleading them), they'd have a much better chance of doing so with a royalty paid on cover price, which cuts farther into the publisher's profit than a royalty paid on net.

Pride & Imprints was what Windstorm was before Ms. DeMarco re-named it Windstorm. I'm not aware that Ms. DeMarco ever published with anyone else. So she wasn't exactly in the big leagues.

- Victoria

[CaoPaux]

Windstorm seems perfectly legit, although not particularly successful. Dare I ask what your definition of "legit" is?

[Lauri B]

I guess I meant "legit" here as in, "actually produces books that are distributed and carried by at least some chain stores." Usually when I go poking around a site like Windstorm and then try to see if any of their books have ISBNs that can be found on Bookscan, I'm out of luck. But Windstorm titles are at least listed on Bookscan. There are quite a few people on this site who are published authors and have gone with publishers who can't be found on Bookscan at all.

That said, would I recommend anyone go to Windstorm Creative and hope for great success? No. From the numbers I've seen and the information on their site, they do no promotion and the pitch they make that they have already tasted great corporate success and decided it wasn't for them is ridiculous. I don't know any publisher who would turn down great corporate success. I sure wouldn't.

And to suggest that ANY poet is best-selling (other than Billy Collins, I would imagine) is a really dumb thing to say. Poetry sells like a basket full of rocks.

[LloydBrown]

A lot about it doesn't make any sense. Some of the indicators point to good intentions but no knowledge. A couple of the indicators are alarming.

I reference their contract & contract FAQ. You might want to check them if you haven't. It's entertaining, in a train wreck kind of way.

The proliferation of imprints make me raise my eyebrow, but I think I figured it out. It's to make the principals feel important. I doubt it actually helps sales in any way.

Royalties on net is bad for the writer, but it 's not necessarily unusual with smaller houses. I don't like the policy, but it's not a deal-breaker with a small publisher.

I didn't notice a reserve against returns in their sample contract. Are the books not returnable? Or do they just not sell enough through the book trade for it to matter?

Smiley faces? Fine for message boards, poor form for a professional website. Unprofessional.

The flat-out lies about an average royalty rate are definitely a sign of deceit.

Anecdotes within the FAQ point out some egregious errors the principals have made in the past. Signing a contract that doesn't include royalty payment dates? Who does that?

Typos and misused words on the website. Minor bad sign.

Nonsense statements about copyrights that indicate either sloppy use of terminology or a failure to understand basic copyright and contract laws. Bad sign.

Making authors get permissions instead of doing it for them. That's a bad sign.

Wow! So, that's how they claim they don't let books go out of print. "[W]e repackaged the book and released it as a new title". Yeah, I bet that went over well with the readers. That's a cause for alarm.

Some of the clauses in the contract are either empty or strange convolutions to avoid standard clauses. Item P, for example. Why wouldn't they have had a boilerplate survivability clause in their contract from the beginning? Why would it have to be added, and why does it use nonstandard language? This isn't a sign of corruption, just ineptitude.

Okay, bored now.

[CaoPaux]

I guess I meant "legit" here as in, "actually produces books that are distributed and carried by at least some chain stores." Ah, okay. Getting books physically into stores is the least definition of "legit" in my book as well.

It's unfortunate that, in Windstorm's case, it's far outweighed by the ignorant, if not deliberate, deception of their authors.

[victoriastrauss]

Making authors get permissions instead of doing it for them. That's a bad sign.That's actually standard. At any rate, every contract I've ever signed has required it.

- Victoria

[Areane_Creator]

Wow, sorry if I offended anyone. Didn't mean to light a bigger fire. Anyway, I suppose you're all entitled to your opinions, and I wish you all success.

Thanks for posting Jennifer

(Was that calling me Jennifer? I'm not her at all. Look me up on google if you want to, my name is Launa Sorensen)

[LloydBrown]

Wow, sorry if I offended anyone. Didn't mean to light a bigger fire. Anyway, I suppose you're all entitled to your opinions, and I wish you all success.

You didn't offend anyone.

I noticed you didn't actually attempt to support any of your statements that were called into question.

So it doesn't particularly bother you that your books are likely to sell a couple of dozen copies through Windstorm Creative, and that your contract isn't as amazing as they tell you it is? Is that warm fuzzy feeling that much more important than selling 5 or 10 thousand books through a larger publisher?

[LloydBrown]

Look me up on google if you want to, my name is Launa Sorensen)

I did, actually. You're a high school junior, apparently. That explains a lot. You really don't know any better.

In that case, I hope you stay for a protracted conversation and you're not here just to shill for Windstorm. We actually have your best interest at heart and don't stand to gain financially from your work. Stick around. Read some more, like the Learn Writing with Uncle Jim thread.

[Sassenach]

Wow, sorry if I offended anyone. Didn't mean to light a bigger fire. Anyway, I suppose you're all entitled to your opinions, and I wish you all success.



(Was that calling me Jennifer? I'm not her at all. Look me up on google if you want to, my name is Launa Sorensen)

That was me. Since you're a brand new poster, I was suspicious that you might be the publisher posting under a pseudonym.

You didn't light a fire Laura, but you did raise a number of red flags. Your publisher is misleading you.

[Areane_Creator]

Okay, I'm glad you aren't mad, when I read the forum before it sounded almost like a complaining session from people who'd never published before. (You probably know the people I'm talking about, the ones who whine because their manuscript got turned down and OBVIOUSLY there must be a scam if their precious baby wasn't good enough) Anyway, as for me being in High School, I don't think that has much to do with anything. I've done research on the publishing market for two years now. As for only selling a few dozen books, I've already beaten that being that through self publication I sold five hundred books in a few months, placing them across the country and even into other countries in some cases. Windstorm is republishing my first book and publishing my second, which will at least sell five hundred again to everyone who read the first and began literally banging down my door for the next. I also have deals with barnes and Noble and other chains that once I'm published they'll shelf my books. (They needed an ISBN, which was WAY too expensive for me at the time) I can set up my own deals well. I live right near windstorm and have personally met and worked with both Jennifer Dimarco and Cris. The editing I've done already has imroved my work a hundred fold as it is. If Windstorm does nothing more then give me a start I'll be happy.As for backing up some of my information, I was typing my lost post during my lunch with five minutes to do it in. About Jennifer's past publishing, go here http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/d/jennifer-dimarco/It's a bit out of date, but it will tell you what you need to know (it was the Escape to the Wind series, by the way) She published her first book at seventeen and made enough money off that one series to buy Windstorm at nineteen. I think that's proof of good sales. She got out of her old deal as a teenager because her publishing house had her do things she didn't like. For example, on the cover of "Escape into the Wind", you'll see a short white woman. Her main character was over six feet and african american. She didn't like that. She also didn't like that her house was having her do signings on her tour at nightclubs when she was underage.

[Tilly]

Okay, I'm glad you aren't mad, when I read the forum before it sounded almost like a complaining session from people who'd never published before.

Many of the writers on this board are published.

(You probably know the people I'm talking about, the ones who whine because their manuscript got turned down and OBVIOUSLY there must be a scam if their precious baby wasn't good enough)

There's a big difference between specific criticisms of a company, and petulance at rejection. The latter seems to result in vague conspiracy theories about the publishing industry in general. If you read back over the whole thread, you'll find a lot of the criticism is very specific, and from people who seem to have been accepted by this company. And I don't think anyone has called Windstorm a scam.

[Sassenach]

As for only selling a few dozen books, I've already beaten that being that through self publication I sold five hundred books in a few months, placing them across the country and even into other countries in some cases.

If this is true, why aren't you pursuing a larger house?

Windstorm is republishing my first book and publishing my second, which will at least sell five hundred again to everyone who read the first and began literally banging down my door for the next. I also have deals with barnes and Noble and other chains that once I'm published they'll shelf my books.

*A* local B&N or all the B&N's? I'm guessing it's the former. (They needed an ISBN, which was WAY too expensive for me at the time) I can set up my own deals well. If you're 17, you can't even sign a contract.

I live right near windstorm and have personally met and worked with both Jennifer Dimarco and Cris. The editing I've done already has imroved my work a hundred fold as it is. If Windstorm does nothing more then give me a start I'll be happy.As for backing up some of my information, I was typing my lost post during my lunch with five minutes to do it in. About Jennifer's past publishing, go here http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/d/jennifer-dimarco/It's a bit out of date, but it will tell you what you need to know (it was the Escape to the Wind series, by the way)That's a not-very-impressive site. She published her first book at seventeen and made enough money off that one series to buy Windstorm at nineteen. I think that's proof of good sales. She got out of her old deal as a teenager because her publishing house had her do things she didn't like. For example, on the cover of "Escape into the Wind", you'll see a short white woman. Her main character was over six feet and african american. She didn't like that. She also didn't like that her house was having her do signings on her tour at nightclubs when she was underage. I'd love to know the name of the house that did that. I doubt the nightclub thing happened [who does signings at nightclubs??]

You seem very intelligent and savvy, but remember caveat emptor.

[LloydBrown]

I think that's proof of good sales.

A couple of things. One, that's not proof of anything. Two, her ability to sell a book she wrote does not make her a good publisher. Three, if you self-published a book and sold 500 copies, thus making the majority of the money off of those sales, why would you go to a publisher and hope to sell 500 copies with the same amount of work for far less money?

Presumably, you hope to sell more books with Windstorm than you did on your own. I'm guessing you didn't check the sales records of many of Windstorms' 150 or so titles, did you?

She published her first book at seventeen and made enough money off that one series to buy Windstorm at nineteen

I believe they were non-profitable at the time; the "sale" could have involved surprisingly little cash. Like "gimme $70 for the domain name."

Her first book, Escape to the Wind, was published by Castillo International. I can only find about four or five books by Castillo, and Jennifer's is the only novel. Since then, it's been published by Pride & Imprints (which became Windstorm) and then under the Windstorm label.

I seriously doubt that Castillo paid for her to go on a tour of nightclubs. How many ways does that not make sense? 1. Nightclubs don't sell books. 2. If she doesn't want to go, she doesn't have to. 3. If her book's such a hot seller, why didn't a larger publisher pick it up? 4. With only one book in print at the time--Jennifer's--I doubt they had a huge promotional budget, and paying for a tour doesn't make sense.

It looks to me like she's gone from playing the Published Author Role Playing Game to playing the Publisher Role Playing Game.

Please understand where my doubt is: I don't think you're lying to us. I believe you are accurately reporting what has been told to you.

[Lauri B]

Okay, I'm glad you aren't mad, when I read the forum before it sounded almost like a complaining session from people who'd never published before. (You probably know the people I'm talking about, the ones who whine because their manuscript got turned down and OBVIOUSLY there must be a scam if their precious baby wasn't good enough) Anyway, as for me being in High School, I don't think that has much to do with anything. I've done research on the publishing market for two years now. As for only selling a few dozen books, I've already beaten that being that through self publication I sold five hundred books in a few months, placing them across the country and even into other countries in some cases. Windstorm is republishing my first book and publishing my second, which will at least sell five hundred again to everyone who read the first and began literally banging down my door for the next. I also have deals with barnes and Noble and other chains that once I'm published they'll shelf my books. (They needed an ISBN, which was WAY too expensive for me at the time) I can set up my own deals well. I live right near windstorm and have personally met and worked with both Jennifer Dimarco and Cris. The editing I've done already has imroved my work a hundred fold as it is. If Windstorm does nothing more then give me a start I'll be happy.As for backing up some of my information, I was typing my lost post during my lunch with five minutes to do it in. About Jennifer's past publishing, go here http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/d/jennifer-dimarco/It's a bit out of date, but it will tell you what you need to know (it was the Escape to the Wind series, by the way) She published her first book at seventeen and made enough money off that one series to buy Windstorm at nineteen. I think that's proof of good sales. She got out of her old deal as a teenager because her publishing house had her do things she didn't like. For example, on the cover of &quot;Escape into the Wind&quot;, you'll see a short white woman. Her main character was over six feet and african american. She didn't like that. She also didn't like that her house was having her do signings on her tour at nightclubs when she was underage. Hi Areane, It sounds like you have written a good book--selling 500 copies of a self-published book when you're 16 is a pretty terrific feat. I'm interested in why you aren't trying to find an agent or work with one of the bigger houses? You have an interesting back story, solid writing credits (so it sounds), and interested buyers. Those are all characteristics that bigger houses would be interested in. Have you tried pitching them? Lots of the people on this thread and on AW are very successful published authors, some with large, commercial publishers, some with small independents. I've worked with--and for--both. I'm happy to send you my publishing cv if you're interested. I caution anyone to go with a company that doesn't seem to have its act together as far as promotion and sales goes, since it isn't going to matter how good your contract is or how terrific the relationship is between you and the publisher. The bottom line is that publishing is a business, and if your goal is to be a professional writer you should be making business decisions based on your best interests.

[CaoPaux]

My apologies if I messed up the quoting.06-12-2006, 10:40 AM
jfreedan
Esteemed New Member

From my own experiences with Windstorm Creative, I decided that I did not want to become involved with them. I will relate my story so others might have more information about them than I did when I first sent submissions to them.

1#: I submitted to Windstorm a manuscript of a fantasy novel I had written After a quick response (within 1 month) back from an editor about if I could foresee the novel being re-written as a graphic novel or a rpg game, I was told that the theme of the story was "not appropriate for my division" (This means she had not even read the manuscript when I was asked about the potential graphic novel/game) and she was sending it directly to the sci-fi division's editor. About 8 months later I have still not heard anything back about it, and it might be just as well.

#2: At the same time I had submitted the novel manuscript, I submitted a card game which was a parody of collectible card games. After 7 months I got a response that they were interested in it and were sending me a contract to review.

However, the contract I was sent was not for a game.
It was for a book.
In fact, it was the very same contract as the one you can download off their website for novels.

I wrote back to the contract editor/manager/whoever that had sent me the contract and pointed out this was a book contract, not a game contract. I heard no reply back for 2 weeks.

After 2 weeks, I wrote again re-sending pretty much the exact same email message as before. This time I was told to just scratch out "book" and put "game" and everything will be alright. I replied back that everything would not be alright and that I desired an actual contract for a game, otherwise I would not be able to seriously consider the terms of the contract. I was replied back with "I understand perfectly, good luck finding another publisher."

So, personal feelings about Windstorm Creative is that they are HORRIBLY unprofessional. I mean, if you cannot even bother to write a contract for games how can you consider yourself to be a professional game publisher? The way they handled their contracts (business end) didnt indicate to me that they would put any effort into actually producing the game (creative end)-- which is verified by the previous authors who have posted about Windstorm making contracts but then not producing anything. (I still cant figure out what is gained by entering contracts you dont intend to fulfill?)

And so much for the promise that they will make changes to the "contracts" they make. They apparently only have 1 contract type.

And dont even get me started on the terms of the only contract they have. It's horrible. Not only do you no chance of making money, but you need to copyright the work yourself?

Well, this is a GAME.
You do NOT copyright games.
You PATENT and TRADEMARK them.

Patenting and trademarking costs a hell of a lot more money than copyrighting does; expecially when you as the trademaker can be certain you will not make back any of the trademarking costs when the publisher is intent on only giving you whatever is left over after they pay themselves for just having some baseball cards printed and posting them on Amazon.com when an order comes in (since they use POD for books, I imagine they would have used the same for the cards, if they even produced any).

People go to publishers because they undertake the costs involved in publishing and marketing.
Windstorm expects authors to undertake some of the costs themselves even though they just POD and post on Amazon? Whats the point? Anyone can do that themselves right now with Lulu.com

The funny thing is, I just wanna break into the darn industry. So long as I could have been able to put on my resume that I had previously sold a game to a publisher, I would of been good. (the novel is different, as the work involved in world building is many hours/days/even weeks of difference from designing a simple card game. I'd of liked an advance of some kind for the book) But if I have to do most of the legal crap myself, including writing my own freakin contract, then why do I need a publisher? I mean, if I had the money for all that, I wouldnt be trying to get a resume credit so I might improve my prospects at getting a future job in the gaming industry.

And in light of their track record, what guarantee would I even have that the game would get produced? I mean, they cant even be bothered to have a game contract created.

As for the people who sign with them....I just dont know. You're probably better off with Lulu.com At least you might make a few dollars a year that way.

Maybe its just me, I dont know. But the contract issue sends a big red flag to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Areane_Creator
Anyway, as for me being in High School, I don't think that has much to do with anything. I've done research on the publishing market for two years now. As for only selling a few dozen books, I've already beaten that being that through self publication I sold five hundred books in a few months, placing them across the country and even into other countries in some cases. Windstorm is republishing my first book and publishing my second, which will at least sell five hundred again to everyone who read the first and began literally banging down my door for the next. I also have deals with barnes and Noble and other chains that once I'm published they'll shelf my books. (They needed an ISBN, which was WAY too expensive for me at the time) I can set up my own deals well. I live right near windstorm and have personally met and worked with both Jennifer Dimarco and Cris. My ******** meter has just went off.

#1: What is the title of your book and where can I find it? :p

#2: If all you are concerned about is being listed in Barnes and Noble and Amazon, then for $80 you can self-publish from Lulu and have that distribution. You dont have to give a publisher all the profits if all you want is a listing. Publishers arent for getting ISBNs and listings. They advantage they offer to authors is marketing. Marketing is not the same thing as getting Ingrim to list your book.

#3: You seem to know far too much information about Mrs. DiMarco and Cris's past exploits which seemingly have little to do with you. And some of this information sounds dubious at best (nightclubs?? Have you actually ever been to a nightclub before and seen like, oh I dunno...people dancing to excessively loud music while drinking cocktails, and not reading/buying books? bands get gigs at nightclubs to sell CDs. Authors do signings at bookstores to sell books)06-12-2006, 12:35 PM
William
Esteemed New Member

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfreedan
Well, this is a GAME.
You do NOT copyright games.
You PATENT and TRADEMARK them.Hi Jfreedan,

I do not come by these boards often, but came by when I heard that our company is another hot topic of conversation. I am with ComStar. We publish both fiction and games. <<Start Shameless Plug: The latest Traveller game books--yes, the word is spelled with two 'L's for the game--are getting great reviews, and will be available at game stores worlwide starting September 1 after making the tour of the game conventions during the summer..END Shameless Plug>>

I wanted to just offer a respectful correction: Games are copyrighted. It is very rare that you will get approved for a patent on a game. You do not own the process of how to play the game (a patent), but you can own the expression (how you explain the process... ie, the rulebook) of how you play the game (a copyright).

A 'trademark' does not need to be registered at first... you would need to register the trademark if you wanted to take legal action against someone infringing on it. Most game elements are not 'trademarked'.

I hope this helps...

William
ComStar

PS: Hey, come check out our website and let me know what you think! I have been gaming since 1987, and got into game publishing in 2004--well, that is when we got our company going and I broke away from some other game companies I had done some work with. We signed our deal to get international game distribution thru Key 20 and their affiliated distributors (including Alliance, ACD, Blackhawk, etc) toward the end of last year and have been growing steadily since. 06-12-2006, 12:40 PM
William
Esteemed New Member

Jennifer DiMarco

Hi all,

I will leave it to others to argue about Windstorm, but I wanted to put out a word about their CEO Jennifer DiMarco. I had the privalege of getting to know her over close to two years and found her to be a truly wonderful person.

I do understand that people have to decide their own goals for why they are writing and seeking publication, and then to try to find a publisher that is a good fit. My point about Jennifer is not about trying to convince anyone to publish thru WSC or to not publish thru WSC.

During conversations with Jennifer that lasted for hours and visits when I was in the Puget Sound area that would last all day, I found her to be someone that cares passionately about children, the environment, books and her authors.

I gain nothing by saying this--she and I have no contact now--but I wanted to offer a personal impression of her. She is one of the 'good gals' in my business experience.

Sincerely,
William
ComStar 06-12-2006, 01:21 PM
LloydBrown
Board fanatic

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfreedan
#2: At the same time I had submitted the novel manuscript, I submitted a card game which was a parody of collectible card games. After 7 months I got a response that they were interested in it and were sending me a contract to review.

However, the contract I was sent was not for a game.
It was for a book.
In fact, it was the very same contract as the one you can download off their website for novels. Then you'd be surprised to find out how common that is in the game industry. While I agree that Windstorm is clueless, this ain't evidence of it.

Quote:
(since they use POD for books, I imagine they would have used the same for the cards, if they even produced any). CCG printing is extraordinarly expensive. You can start low-budget book production for $0 to $500. Low-budget CCG production starts at $10,000 to $40,000. The card game version of an off-set print run with wide distribution runs over $500,000.

Quote:
People go to publishers because they undertake the costs involved in publishing and marketing.
Windstorm expects authors to undertake some of the costs themselves even though they just POD and post on Amazon? Whats the point? What costs did they ask you to pay?

Quote:
The funny thing is, I just wanna break into the darn industry. So long as I could have been able to put on my resume that I had previously sold a game to a publisher, I would of been good. Dude, nobody in the gaming industry has heard of Windstorm Creative. I've worked for Wizards, Alderac, Kenzer and Steve Jackson. I owned a game store for 5 years. Windstorm doesn't go to the big cons. Nobody carries their products. They're a non-issue.

As such, any credit you'd claim through them is a waste of time.

How did you come to submit a card game to them, anyway? Presumably, you walked into a game store, found a popular card game, picked up the box to see who the manufacturer was, and solicited them. Right? No, that wouldn't work because they don't have games on shelves.

Well, that's the way you should do it. Another way would be to hit one of the big cons like GenCon.

I'll give you a hint: John Nephew at Atlas Games says he has a budget and he's looking for a project. Atlas has done card games before, like Lunch Money, and CCGs, like Over the Edge and Mythos. They have the infrastructure, they have the market, and they have the budget.

Try Chris Peterson at Fantasy Flight Games, John Zinser at Alderac Entertainment, Zev Schlasinger at Z-Man Games, Ian Barstow at Mongoose, and Chris Weise at Holistic Design*, just off the top of my head. Kenzer might do it if it's really good; they did the Monty Python and the Holy Grail CCG.

*That's a joke--Chris'll kill you. Well, he won't kill you, but in the Fading Suns RPG universe, the Orthodox church has declared trafficking in collectible card games to be a sin.
__________________
Lloyd Brown 06-12-2006, 02:29 PM
LesserWeevil
Esteemed New Member

WindstormCreative

The joy I felt at being informed that WindstormCreative wanted to publish my first book was equal in intensity only to the dispair I felt when (several years later) I realized that I had given my book to a print-on-demand house.

I listened rapturously when they told me the same stories that others have related on this board. They were going to allot 80k for marketing. Ingram had made an especially large initial order of my book. I would be able to live off my royalties after they had published five of my books. They paid the highest royalties in the industries. Sigh.

The book actually "hitting the streets" a full two years after the contracted time frame was my first inkling that things at WC were not quite as advertised. But it only got worse. I was to receive comp copies....I never did. Their insistance that I find my own reviewers was, in the words of the person I contacted for a review, a completely unheard of practice. Requests for promotional material for book-signings went unheeded. I sent emails to the order manager that not only was my book absent from the shelves of any bookstore in my area but it wasn't even AVAILABLE to those stores. I was told that things were just fine.

The most devestating blow came with my first royalty report. I discovered that in fact things were NOT just fine. Fifty or so copies of my book had sold. This was particularly disheartening as I knew that I had personally ordered 40 of those. The other ten were easily accounted for by friends and family buying the book from amazon. I emailed the editor that the less-than-50-dollars I DIDN't receive in royalties was far below the contracted rate of 15% of all monies received (unless of course unless they were getting 50 cents for each book). An answer that the matter would immediately be looked into has so far (after 6 months) yielded no results.

I thought it particularly odd that they insist that one NEVER just show up to their "campus". One should always give them one week's notice before a visit. I'm assuming this is to give them time to pick up the place a bit.

Like others in this forum, I finally concluded that if I didn't personally sell my book, it was not going to be sold.

Unfortunately for me, I didn't realize this until I had sent them the manuscript for my second book (which was accepted for publication sight-unseen.) My only hope now is that they will not get around to doing anything with it until after the contracted time period. As I'm sure this will be the case, I will tell them that their inaction has voided the contract, although I'm certain this will start a rash of seriously harsh words. But I am so proud of my new book that I would hate to see it die a whimpering death like the first one.

Avoid this house at all costs. Publishing with them can only lead to tears.

(oh, and yes, the postings in this forum that defend WC were either written by the editors themselves or by writers that are trying desparately to mimic their style. They all seem to have a turn of phrase that is oddly remeniscent of the editorials in the WC weekly "newsletter" .) 06-12-2006, 06:38 PM
jfreedan
Esteemed New Member

Quote:
Originally Posted by William
Hi Jfreedan,

I wanted to just offer a respectful correction: Games are copyrighted. It is very rare that you will get approved for a patent on a game. You do not own the process of how to play the game (a patent), but you can own the expression (how you explain the process... ie, the rulebook) of how you play the game (a copyright).

A 'trademark' does not need to be registered at first... you would need to register the trademark if you wanted to take legal action against someone infringing on it. Most game elements are not 'trademarked'.

I hope this helps...

William
ComStarTrading Card Game patent
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-P...S=PN/5,662,332

Roleplaying/War game patent
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-P...RS=roleplaying

You sir are incorrect.

Obviously you cannot own the process of a game with a copyright. That is what patents are for. That is why copyrighting does not give any protection.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LloydBrown
CCG printing is extraordinarly expensive. You can start low-budget book production for $0 to $500. Low-budget CCG production starts at $10,000 to $40,000. The card game version of an off-set print run with wide distribution runs over $500,000. Perhaps for marketing, sure. But producing the cards? I'd think the biggest cost involved is editing and artwork. I mean, when you can order custom baseball cards from a variety of sources on the net, such as here for a reasonable price, the deals with professional game publishers make with a manufacturer ought to be significantly sweeter. Is that thinking incorrect?

Thanks for the info on other publishers though. I had sent an inquiry to Steve Jackson games (which was rejected), but that was it.

As for why I had originally submitted to Winstorm? I had this idea that if I went to a smaller publisher, the chances of being published would be higher since we're in this age of celebrity game designers. But I've learned if the smaller publisher doesnt even distribute their games, you might as well have not even bothered.

As for the contract....aside from Wizards of the Coast, how many game publishers are also book publishers? I dont quite comprehend how it's common in the industry to send people a contract for a book containing x words, among other book specific language, when your primary business is to publish games. 06-12-2006, 07:43 PM
William
Esteemed New Member

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfreedan
Trading Card Game patent
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnet ahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=5,662,33 2.PN.&OS=PN/5,662,332&RS=PN/5,662,332

You sir are incorrect.LOL.. people do love to bring up WotC's example of actually winning a patent on Magic and some of the techniques about the game. It is the rarity in games, not the norm.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, however the overwhelming vast majority of games are only protected by a copyright, and often a trademark. A patent is very rare in games.

William 06-12-2006, 10:22 PM
LloydBrown
Board fanatic

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfreedan
Obviously you cannot own the process of a game with a copyright. That is what patents are for. That is why copyrighting does not give any protection. Okay, not knowing something is perfectly excusable. Not knowing and insisting that you're right is just irritating.

WotC has a patent on certain elements of CCGs, primarily the rotation of a card in order to indicate that it has been used.

You also pointed out some poorly-written patent on wargames by somebody I've never heard of, after 26 years of play, 11 years of writing, and 5 years of retailing. I don't recognize the game by its patent description, either.

Those are exceptions. Those are not the rules. No, really, go ahead and copy & paste the patent for D&D, Call of Cthulhu, GURPS, L5R, Mythos, Warhammer 40k, Warmachine, Lunch Money, Fluxx, LCR, Munchkin, Warlord, and 4,000 other games. I'll wait.

Or, let me save you some time and point out that they're not there.

Quote:
Perhaps for marketing, sure. But producing the cards? I'd think the biggest cost involved is editing and artwork. If I was including the whole package, I'd have said $1M.

Art can be a big cost, but some other big killers include collation (you don't want to collate 1,000 booster boxes of 540 cards by hand, do you?), packaging, boxing, shipping, storage.

For art, figure at least $25 per image. An initial set might include 300 images. That's $7,500. If you want people to actually like the cards and use industry names like Jason Engle, Ron Spencer, Toni DiTerlizzi, you'll spend closer to $50,000.

WotC can get booster packs produced for under .25 each, but WotC also spent over $80,000,000 for the Harry Potter license. License alone, not CCG production. They think big. A startup would be lucky to get the same cost under .50, so your initial print run, cardstock only, might be $18,000 or more.

Also, wise CCG planning has the first three sets ready to go before you release the game, so double all of those numbers (expansions 2-3 aren't as big as the first).

There's a reason you see hundreds of RPG publishers that are one guy making a website on his lunchbreak and writing on the weekends. Startup cost for an RPG is about $40. I know of one guy who did a startup CCG, and his product was bottom-of-the-barrel quality with no random collation. I think he spent $18,000.

Quote:
As for why I had originally submitted to Winstorm? I had this idea that if I went to a smaller publisher, the chances of being published would be You can go with a smaller publisher, yes, but go with a publisher. Windstorm is a figment of somebody's imagination. Really--what games do they put out that you've seen in a store or at a convention? None.

Also, smaller publishers don't have the bucks to do CCGs. There's no point in offering them a game they can't afford to produce and have no experience making.

Quote:
higher since we're in this age of celebrity game designers. What are you talking about? Did Britney Spears start making RPGs?

Quote:
As for the contract....aside from Wizards of the Coast, how many game publishers are also book publishers? Except for maybe Upper Deck, nearly all of them.

Really, man. Dial back on the confrontational attitude and watch the learning happening. It's pretty cool.
__________________
Lloyd Brown 06-13-2006, 09:22 AM
jfreedan
Esteemed New Member

Quote:
Originally Posted by LloydBrown
Okay, not knowing something is perfectly excusable. Not knowing and insisting that you're right is just irritating.

WotC has a patent on certain elements of CCGs, primarily the rotation of a card in order to indicate that it has been used.

You also pointed out some poorly-written patent on wargames by somebody I've never heard of, after 26 years of play, 11 years of writing, and 5 years of retailing. I don't recognize the game by its patent description, either.

Those are exceptions. Those are not the rules. No, really, go ahead and copy & paste the patent for D&D, Call of Cthulhu, GURPS, L5R, Mythos, Warhammer 40k, Warmachine, Lunch Money, Fluxx, LCR, Munchkin, Warlord, and 4,000 other games. I'll wait.

Or, let me save you some time and point out that they're not there. Actually, since Wizards has blocked people from using their game rules in other media, and that people who want to use the rulesets need to have a license (aside from D20, of course), I imagine they do have a patent.

Quote:
If I was including the whole package, I'd have said $1M.

Art can be a big cost, but some other big killers include collation (you don't want to collate 1,000 booster boxes of 540 cards by hand, do you?), packaging, boxing, shipping, storage.
I'm sorry, but last I checked a typical card game like UNO doesnt have a booster pack.

The game ISN'T a collectible card game. It is a card game that is a parody of collectible card games. There is a -very- unique difference between the two, and it impacts the amount of cards which are actually needed to be produced.


Quote:
What are you talking about? Did Britney Spears start making RPGs? No, I'm talking about the industry. It has become similar to other entertainment industries where the director/actor/writer/artist/author fame is used as apart of the calculation for the marketability of the product. The game industry isnt in it's infantile stage anymore. It is not as easy to break into as it once was back when it was still possible to print up some maps and a rulebook and get your local gamestore to stock it.

Not to say theres something negative about it. It's not unusual. I'm just pointing out that people who are trying to get just 1 game published are competing with many people who have already had 100s published, and have proven track records.

Quote:
Really, man. Dial back on the confrontational attitude and watch the learning happening. It's pretty cool. What am I supposedly learning?

You're pointing out that Windstorm wouldnt of published the game, which is a conclusion I happened to have arrived at without your aid.

The only thing else I can see is that you have difficulty reading what other people type and that you seem to think the patenting of a game is an exception and not a rule. Neverminding that Milton Bradley/Parker Brothers/Hasbro are/have obviously patenting their games because they file/filed lawsuits against people who try to commercially sell games derived/inspired from their products. Even Monopoly had a patent.

Here, look through this and as you say, "let the learning begin".
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO %2Fsearch-adv.htm&r=0&f=S&l=50&d=PTXT&RS=%28game+AND+board%2 9&Refine=Refine+Search&Refine=Refine+Search&Query= game+AND+board+AND+toy

Or heck, let's just look at this patent for a card game.
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-P...=(game+AND+toy)

And then look at aaaall the other patents for games which it references.

Maybe patenting isnt so much the "Exception" as it is that some people who publish games do not know how to legally protect their investments? o.006-13-2006, 01:25 PM
Old Hack
We all moo together

Hmmm. I worked for many years in the computer games market in the UK and although I'll admit to my knowledge of the current market being well out of date now, and things might very well be different in America, I don't remember a single game getting a patent. Copyright, sure: everything came under copyright: text, designs, packaging, ads, everything. But patents? Nope. Not a one. 06-14-2006, 05:05 PM
LloydBrown
Board fanatic

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfreedan
Actually, since Wizards has blocked people from using their game rules in other media, and that people who want to use the rulesets need to have a license (aside from D20, of course), I imagine they do have a patent. Yes, they do. We've already agreed on that part. When I said "WotC has a patent", what did you assume I meant?

The point was that you're claiming it's an industry standard. You are wrong.

Quote:
The game ISN'T a collectible card game. It is a card game that is a parody of collectible card games. My mistake. I thought you were proposing a parody CCG.

Quote:
There is a -very- unique difference between the two, and it impacts the amount of cards which are actually needed to be produced. Actually, it would impact the number of cards.

Quote:
No, I'm talking about the industry. It has become similar to other entertainment industries where the director/actor/writer/artist/author fame is used as apart of the calculation for the marketability of the product. Author/designer name recognition is very low among the game industry. As far as board games go, Klaus Teuber, Reiner Knizia, and Richard Garfield are known--and Garfield primarily because of Magic. And that's only among dedicated board gamers. The general public has no idea who these people are.

Don't believe me? Fair enough. Who's the lead designer of D&D? I'm sure you can rattle if off without a problem. Apples to Apples? Carcassonne? HeroScape? Ticket to Ride? Who's the current brand manager for Magic: the Gathering? I can guarantee you that the fraction of customers who buy these best-selling games and knows the answer rounds to 0%. Designer name has NO MEASURABLE IMPACT on 99%+ of game sales.

Quote:
It is not as easy to break into as it once was back when it was still possible to print up some maps and a rulebook and get your local gamestore to stock it. You're right. It's far, far easier. Thanks to fulfillment houses, any small press can gain distribution. Thanks to POD technology, I could have a book printed tomorrow if I wanted. Thanks to the Internet, I can get professional-quality art for $15 a quarter-page. Thanks to Ali "the Game Babe" Summers, I can get a list of over 3,000 game stores to solicit my games to. Everything from creation to distribution to marketing is easier now than it was 10 years ago or 20 years ago.

Quote:
You're pointing out that Windstorm wouldnt of published the game, which is a conclusion I happened to have arrived at without your aid. The expression is "wouldn't have", and if you had done a tiny amount of research, you, too, would have known that Windstorm wasn't a real publisher before you even contacted them.

Now that you're not only refusing to accept that you don't know everything, but you're being downright rude, I'll observe that there might be other reasons for your work not being published.

Quote:
Maybe patenting isnt so much the "Exception" as it is that some people who publish games do not know how to legally protect their investments? o.0 My comments about WotC & their CCG-related patent being unique apply to the adventure hobby industry, to which you seem to be trying to sell. There's no point in selling a parody of a collectible card game to people who have never heard of a collectible card game. My apologies; I certainly should not have assumed that your questions would be relevant to your goal in any way.

Even in the mass market, a tiny fraction of all of the games are patented. Patenting is an expensive and time-consuming process that not all games demand. Show me the patent for Settlers of Catan. Apples to Apples has sold over a million copies and doesn't have a patent. I could literally spend all day pointing out best-selling games that don't have patents.

Because your written rules and flavor text are automatically copyrighted and can be registered for only $30, copyright protection is substantial for protecting games. The look of the game and the box are part of your trade dress and protected by trademark, which you may also choose to register.

I can count on one hand all of the patents in the hobby gaming industry: WotC's CCGs, WizKids' clix...and I'll guess there are a couple of other just to give the benefit of the doubt. That comes up to far less than .1% of the games on the market. I just checked Centurion Hobby's website, and they list over 8,000 games available for sale; they're a small to mid-sized distributor.

If you insist that you won't sign a contract with anyone who doesn't patent your game, you won't sell it to anyone.

Well, I was going to give you a longer list of publishers you could submit your game to and estimates of how much it would cost to produce, how many copies it might sell, and some suggestions on retail support, given that you're not proposing a CCG. Fortunately, your belligerent and know-it-all tone changed my mind. No point in wasting your time telling you what you so clearly already know.
__________________
Lloyd Brown 06-16-2006, 02:12 PM
jfreedan
Esteemed New Member

Quote:
Originally Posted by LloydBrown

Author/designer name recognition is very low among the game industry. As far as board games go, Klaus Teuber, Reiner Knizia, and Richard Garfield are known--and Garfield primarily because of Magic. And that's only among dedicated board gamers. The general public has no idea who these people are. The general public doesnt need to know who David Arneson and Gary Gygax are because the general public doesnt play RPG games.

And I'm pretty certain that people who have a game credit have an easier time getting another one than the person who doesnt. And its because the marketability of the name. Someone who enjoyed one game is more likely to be interested in playing other games from that designer.

There's a reason Steve Jackson named his company after himself.

Quote:
You're right. It's far, far easier. Thanks to fulfillment houses, any small press can gain distribution. Thanks to POD technology, I could have a book printed tomorrow if I wanted. Thanks to the Internet, I can get professional-quality art for $15 a quarter-page. Thanks to Ali "the Game Babe" Summers, I can get a list of over 3,000 game stores to solicit my games to. Everything from creation to distribution to marketing is easier now than it was 10 years ago or 20 years ago. If you wish to self-publish, sure.
But not if you want to be published.

Quote:
The expression is "wouldn't have", and if you had done a tiny amount of research, you, too, would have known that Windstorm wasn't a real publisher before you even contacted them. Their products were listed on Amazon.com
Given that their website presented itself as their game division being a recent endeaver, it seemed like they might be legitimate. Most fraudulent companies encourage the authors to buy their own books.

Quote:
Now that you're not only refusing to accept that you don't know everything, but you're being downright rude, I'll observe that there might be other reasons for your work not being published. You must be pretty irritated at yourself for berating someone for daring to submit to an indie publisher. and making amusing statements such as that it is "normal" for a game contract to be a book contract, or that games cant get patents, and pretty much everything else you said that has been demonstrated to be wrong.

Oh, and dont dare act as if you were just trying to help me in your post.

YOU are the one who was acting like a, as you say, "know-it-all".

I posted here to explain to other would-be authors that I had tested the waters and found them to be unswimmable.

You decided to chime in on why I should not have submitted to them in the first place by listing all these personal contacts of yours that I could of otherwise submitted to if I was...say, YOU?

So tell me-- who is the one with the real attitude problem here?

Anyway, our arguement is detracting from the purpose of the thread. Which is about Windstorm Creative and their credibility; not that of Mr. Lloyd Brown and his unwarranted "advice" which only has merit if time travel is possible. 06-16-2006, 03:17 PM
LloydBrown
Board fanatic

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfreedan
The general public doesnt need to know who David Arneson and Gary Gygax are because the general public doesnt play RPG games. You keep pointing to exceptions and presenting them as the rule. The general public does play many board games, yet nobody knows the board game designers I mentioned.

Quote:
And I'm pretty certain that people who have a game credit have an easier time getting another one than the person who doesnt. And its because the marketability of the name. Someone who enjoyed one game is more likely to be interested in playing other games from that designer. Just like with books, publishers are likely to make a second buy from somebody for the same reason they made the first: the author or designer followed the submission guidelines on their website and offered them a good product. It doesn't matter if it's your first submission or your 20th.

What readers don't see is how often a frequent designer gets turned down because he's offering something that won't sell. Hence, they come up with some inexplicable concept that first-timers can't sell anything.

I've seen first-time freelancers log onto RPGnet.com, post a message saying "Hey, I'm new. Here are my credentials" and have 3 offers for work within an hour. It's really not hard.

Quote:
There's a reason Steve Jackson named his company after himself. Surprise to no one, here's an exception you present as a rule.

How about these? Alderac Entertainment Group, Pinnacle Entertainment Group, Green Ronin Publishing, White Wolf Publishing, Bastion Press, Fast ForwardEntertainment, Upper Deck, Amarillo Design Bureau, Reaper Miniatures, Mongoose Publishing, Dream Pod 9, Eden Studios, Avalanche Press, Atlas Games, Corsair Publishing, Paizo Publishing, Rio Grande Games, Mayfair Games, Koplow Games, Key 20 Publishing, Sovereign Press, Wood Expressions, Chaosium, Citizen Games, Excelsior Games, Urban Mammoth Games, Guardians of Order, Necromancer Games, Decipher Games, Iron Crown Enterprises, Malhavoc Press, Crystal Caste, Privateer Press, Palladium Publishing, WizKids, Uberplay, Fantasy Flight Games, Darkfuries Publishing, Grey Ghost Games, Hero Games, Hex Games, Days of Wonder, Games Workshop, Troll Lord Games, Wizards of the Coast...okay, I'll stop now. 99% of the time, the company is not named after the designer.

Not to mention that you're pointing out how a 26-year old company name is indicative of what you believe to be a current trend.

Quote:
If you wish to self-publish, sure.
But not if you want to be published. Take a wild guess who buys these games. I'll give you a hint: it starts with "publishe*". I'll leave you to fill in the last bit of the word. 400 markets to sell to is better for the writer than 4 markets. If a publisher isn't interested in what you have to offer, take it to another one.

Quote:
Their products were listed on Amazon.com
Give that their website presents itself as their game division being a recent endeaver, it seemed like they might be legitamate. It's legitimate (or in this case, it isn't). Proper research includes looking on shelves for products, not reading a website. Anyone can say anything about himself. Or, tell me this: what was the Amazon ranking of the products you saw on Amazon? I've checked about 20 of their titles, and most of them are in the millions. Was it the prospect of selling a dozen copies of your game what inspired you to submit to Windstorm Creative?

Quote:
You must be pretty irritated at yourself for berating someone for daring to submit to an indie publisher. If you still want to call Windstorm a publisher, go ahead. I call them a wannabe.

Quote:
and making amusing statements such as that it is "normal" for a game contract to be a book contract, I have several contracts here on my computer, and they all agree with me. We could use as evidence for those companies whose contracts I don't have on my computer their submission release forms. I do have about 100 of those from research into writing a RPG Freelancing book. Hey, they all treat books and other games the same! Maybe your game contract-signing experience is different. Wait--you haven't actually seen any of these contracts, have you? Why are you so insistent about what kind of wording you think they have?

Quote:
or that games cant get patents, and pretty much everything else you said that has been demonstrated to be wrong. Can you show me where I said games can't get patents? No, you can't. The reason you can't is that it's not true. I said 99% of the time games don't get patents, and they don't get patents because they don't need patents. Copyright and trademark laws provide ample protection for all but a handful of games.

Quote:
You decided to chime in on why I should not have submitted to them in the first place by listing all these personal contacts of yours that I could of otherwise submitted to if I was...say, YOU? ...or, say, anyone else who did 5 minutes of research in a game store, at a game convention, or on Google. Actually, I just entered "board game publishers' into google and followed a link to Wikipedia. It took less than 5 seconds to bring up a list of legitimate board game publishers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ame_publishers

Windstorm Creative isn't on the list.

It's still could have, not could of. At least half of those names were not people I've worked with personally. They're people whose names I know from working in the industry and from (get this) reading submission guidelines.

Quote:
So tell me-- who is the one with the real attitude problem here? I know! Let's make a poll.

The strange thing is that you decided Windstorm Creative was unprofessional for the only thing they do that is typical of game publishing. There are many reasons why they're a poor choice to sell your work to, but that's not one of them.
__________________
Lloyd Brown 06-16-2006, 03:21 PM
LloydBrown
Board fanatic

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfreedan
not that of Mr. Lloyd Brown and his unwarranted "advice" which only has merit if time travel is possible.

You changed your post while I was replying to it.

What's with the time travel reference? What's stopping you from offering your game to any of the publishers I mentioned right now?
__________________
Lloyd Brown 06-16-2006, 03:25 PM
William
Esteemed New Member

JFreedan,

We will just have to disagree about the patent being the norm. There are well over 1,000 SKUs each year just in the hobby game trade--the patents that have been applied for and granted are a miniscule percentage of that.

Aside from that issue tho: I would certainly agree with you that a publisher is far more likely to sign a contract with a game designer that has publishing credits. I have spoken to a number of mid-sized publishers that only open their projects to non-published freelancers after they have exhausted their efforts to get previously published writers. When you consider the cost of 'taking a chance' on a newcommer, I think you can understand why they have this policy.

As a freelancer, you are welcome to join the GPA (Game Publishers Association) as an Associate Member (it is only 20 dollars per year). This would get you access to a treasure trove of information from other members (which includes nearly 100 publishers--many of whom have been game publishing for a long time before the d20 boom/craze). Some of the other Associate Members include consolidators (Impressions and Key 20), Distributors (I know that Alliance is a member, but I am uncertain about the others), Mark Simmons (owner of Games Quarterly and Games Expo) is an active participant on the mail list, etc. If you are serious about wanting to do freelance work in the game trade, this may be a worthwhile 20 dollars per year.

Good luck to you!
William
ComStar 06-16-2006, 08:18 PM
HapiSofi
Board fanatic
Absolute Sage

Copyright's the norm. Patents are almost unheard-of. No one needs to make a big argument out of this.
__________________
Winner of the Best Drycleaner on the Block Award. 06-16-2006, 08:46 PM
LucyEllenH
One of the Locals

The main issue about Windstorm Creative that I have found in the process of researching them (as a book publisher) is their "poor contract". It offers royalties as a percent of net monies collected as opposed to cover price, which is apparently the norm. Other than that, they looked "on the level", though I of course defer to those with more direct experiences with them.

(Not addressing the gaming issue at all.)
__________________
Lucy 06-17-2006, 02:42 PM
HapiSofi
Board fanatic
Absolute Sage

Quote:
Originally Posted by LucyEllenH
The main issue about Windstorm Creative that I have found in the process of researching them (as a book publisher) is their "poor contract". It offers royalties as a percent of net monies collected as opposed to cover price, which is apparently the norm. ... By my lights, the most significant issue is the one LloydBrown identified:

Quote:
Dude, nobody in the gaming industry has heard of Windstorm Creative. I've worked for Wizards, Alderac, Kenzer and Steve Jackson. I owned a game store for 5 years. Windstorm doesn't go to the big cons. Nobody carries their products. They're a non-issue. It's possible to work around less-than-ideal contracts and editorial practices, but having little or no distribution or market presence is a dealbreaker.
__________________
Winner of the Best Drycleaner on the Block Award. 06-23-2006, 09:53 AM
sweetpea
Esteemed New Member

Windstorm/Book sales statistics

I am interested in how to pull up the sales statistics people spoke of in this thread.

Is there a way to see how many books have been sold, rather than relying on Amazon's sales ranks?

I ask because I have been offered a contract with Windstorm, (royalty only on gross sales) but I am concerned about market placement (major book stores) and actual sales facts.

For the record, I'm fairly new to publishing, but I do have my first book coming out in Sept. 06-23-2006, 05:25 PM
LloydBrown
Board fanatic

Quote:
Originally Posted by sweetpea
I am interested in how to pull up the sales statistics people spoke of in this thread. For my own part, I base novel sales estimates largely on three things.

First, you can use the Amazon ranking to gauge the rate of sales. If a book is currently selling 200 copies per year and has been out six months, that's not many sales. Professional companies promote a book before it releases, so most of a book's sales come early in its lifespan. However, I haven't seen any evidence of effective promotion at Windstorm, so I assume less of a slide in the sales-over-time graph (in other words, it sells just as quickly 2 months after release as it does 6 months after release).

So I'd count 100 sales in the above example. Under normal conditions, Amazon's sales count for anything from 15% to 40% of a book's total sales, so our example book could have sold 250 to 700 sales between all channels.

Secondly, I compare the amazon ranking method (which is admittedly a very wide range) to numbers typical of what a busy self-promoter can sell. This number varies by genre or topic, price point and availability.

Third, I look at the book. Bad cover art, poor writing, and cliched storylines subtract numbers. Not much here can actually add to it, though.

I also consider the publisher's distribution, but the publisher's distribution is already reflected in the Amazon ranking. If the book is on store shelves where people can browse it before they go home and order it, it'll have more sales reflected in its Amazon ranking.

If all these numbers all send a consistent message, I'm fairly comfortable with my guess. If the estimates are conflicting, then I try to give numbers in relative terms rather than absolutes.
__________________
Lloyd Brown06-23-2006, 10:28 PM
Aconite
Full sun to light shade
Mod Squad Member

Quote:
Originally Posted by sweetpea
I ask because I have been offered a contract with Windstorm, (royalty only on gross sales) but I am concerned about market placement (major book stores) and actual sales facts. sweatpea, here's the simplest, most accurate way to determine if a publisher can get your book stocked in bookstores: Go to your local bookstores. Look for books by that publisher on the shelves. If there aren't any there, odds are your book won't be either. And without store placement and the distribution setups to make that happen, you can kiss goodbye any hopes of being widely read.
__________________ Yesterday, 08:14 AM
sweetpea
Esteemed New Member

Book store hunt

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aconite
Look for books by that publisher on the shelves. If there aren't any there, odds are your book won't be either. I looked yesterday at Borders and had no luck finding a single book. They were available for order only. Not very encouraging. Yesterday, 08:32 AM
Aconite
Full sun to light shade
Mod Squad Member

Quote:
Originally Posted by sweetpea
I looked yesterday at Borders and had no luck finding a single book. They were available for order only. Not very encouraging. Not very, no.
__________________

[LloydBrown]

Listing Removed:
Windstorm Creative listing removed by editorial decision; no further information available.

[JoeEkaitis]

Listing Removed:
Windstorm Creative listing removed by editorial decision; no further information available.Translation: Hey, they LOOKED legit from their answers to the questionnaire we sent! They didn't say ANYTHING about subsidy or publish-on-demand!

[LloydBrown]

Translation: Hey, they LOOKED legit from their answers to the questionnaire we sent! They didn't say ANYTHING about subsidy or publish-on-demand!

Clearly, WM found something they didn't like. Does anyone know for what specific reasons WM will de-list a publisher?

[LloydBrown]

I guess that would be a resounding "no."

[victoriastrauss]

I know they de-listed one after they discovered it charged fees. Ditto for the occasional agent.

- Victoria

[soloset]

From the Writer's Market faq, under "How are listings created? Why can't I find a particular publisher?":

A market may be excluded for one of these reasons:

It doesn't solicit freelance material.
It doesn't pay for material.
It has gone out of business.
It failed to verify or update its listing.
It was in the middle of being sold, and rather than disclose premature details, we chose not to list it.
It hasn't answered Writer's Market inquiries satisfactorily (to the best of our ability, and with our readers' help, we try to screen out fraudulent listings).
It buys few manuscripts and thus constitutes a very small market for freelancers.


That's about it.

[LloydBrown]

A market may be excluded for one of these reasons:

It doesn't solicit freelance material.
It doesn't pay for material.
It has gone out of business.
It failed to verify or update its listing.
It was in the middle of being sold, and rather than disclose premature details, we chose not to list it.
It hasn't answered Writer's Market inquiries satisfactorily (to the best of our ability, and with our readers' help, we try to screen out fraudulent listings).
It buys few manuscripts and thus constitutes a very small market for freelancers.

Well, given what we know about Windstorm, and that it WAS listed and was then removed, let's count them down.
#1 doesn't apply.
#2 might apply, if writers complained about not being paid.
#3 is either incorrect, or WM has information we don't have. The website's still up, and we've heard from them or their shills recently, so I don't think that's the case.
#4 could be it. I can't imagine that any publisher would fail to update its Writer's Market listing, unless all those savvy writers that know what to expect just refuse to fall for Windstorm's propaganda.
#5 could be, but I doubt it.
#6 is, in my opinion, most likely. Some of their responses probably triggered alarm bells at WM, and weaseling only made them more reluctant to attach their name to Windstorm.
#7 is not likely. WM lists markets that buy fewer works than Windstorm has acquired.

[victoriastrauss]

#6 is, in my opinion, most likely. Some of their responses probably triggered alarm bells at WM, and weaseling only made them more reluctant to attach their name to Windstorm.Or someone wrote to complain about something, and WM investigated and felt the complaint was justified. That's what triggered the de-listing of the other publisher.

- Victoria

[Alison Lake]

My history book which I pulled from Windstorm after their unprofessional behavior was recently published by Ohio Univ. Press and is selling very well. Libraries and colleges have already placed large orders and the book is gorgeous. It had a big spot at BookExpo in DC. Their loss was my gain.

I will wait to see if I ever receive Windstorm royalities from freelance editing another of their nonfiction books. I spent weeks editing a book on contract, and completed it over a year ago. It was recently released on Amazon. I suppose if the royalty checks are under $50 I won't see those either.

Just thought I'd check in again. That company really amazes me. Thanks everyone for sharing your experiences too.

Alison

[Sonarbabe]

That's good to hear. Congratulations. :)

[Tilly]

Congratulations Alison!:Sun:

[Alison Lake]

Thank you. You're both too kind.

I've learned through experience how easy it is for eager authors to get sucked into a company and contractual agreement that may not serve them well. The publishing industry is so complex that it's easy to get screwed. And, I have also been surprised at how long the whole publishing process can take with the smaller companies and that lack of communication is very common. I understand when smaller presses are stretched in their resources, but author communication should be a number one priority.

[triceretops]

I just skimmed their website and noticed that their royalties are now based on "gross." So whether it was a result of this thread or not remains to be seen. But I have nothing further to add to this discussion.

Tri

[LloydBrown]

Update: Without going into details, another author of Windstorm Creative seems to have left due to reported sales being completely contrary to the rosy picture this publisher paints of their own ability. He's very unhappy at the wide gulf between reality and the promises they make in their pitches.

Reported sales are fewer than two dozen. It takes real suckiness to under-sell the average Publish America title.

[Popeyesays]

I tried to run the ISBN numbers of several of there "unbelievable sellers" They came up blank at Amazon and Barnes and Noble. One has to wonder how it can be a big seller?

I have never heard of a single one of their book titles or even their RPG game titles and I've been a big gamer since the middle 1970's.

Regards,
Scott

[JustinThorne]

Well, I don't have a relationship with Windstorm, but I do know two of their authors.

Gary Wassner (http://www.garywassner.com) talks about his frustrations with working with a small press generally, but has always been happy with the upsides of being signed to WC, I.E. his books aren't back-catalogued and they were happy to invest in all three of his first books in the series... the quality in the Gemquest books is excellent - google Gary, he is getting a lot of respect from critics and fans and I am sure he will add his perspective here once he has been made aware of the debate.

Kevin Radthorne (http://www.kevinradthorne.com) is also with WC and has written a brilliant fantasy series set in an Asian-culture, rather than the standard quasi-medieval fantasy setting. His books are also of excellent quality and Kevin is a fine illustrator, having designed the covers of his books himself (http://www.kevinradthorne.com/Kotaishi%20Part%201.gif).

I've always been impressed with the covers of both of the above's books...

This is the fantastic visual (http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a112/neologikal/gemquest4_thumb.jpg) for Gary's fourth book in the Gemquest series...

I'm not really adding anything to the debate on dealings with the publisher, but I am vouching for the quality of some of their authors and the books themselves.

I've just signed to a small publisher myself (Kedzie Press) and I think writers need to ensure their expectations are realistic when dealing with an independent. You aren't going to get a huge (or any) marketing budget, you are going to have to be involved yourself in marketing the book, the publisher may not like the idea of sale or return with the big distributors, you are going to have to work hard on every single listing in the smaller bookstores... that's the reality.

However, there are upsides, they should be quicker, they should be more flexible, you should build a mutually beneficial relationship and they invest longterm in their products and authors, rather than delisting a book if it doesn't make the bestsellers lists after six weeks.

[ATP]

I am sure that I am speaking out of turn, and overstepping my bounds here.

However, you are probably unaware that AW's proprietor, Jenna Glatzer, has been experiencing technical problems with the ISP's equipment, as well as she (her?) trying to institute reductions in use of bandwidth. One recent request she has made is for members' removal of unnecessarily large graphics. I think one alternative recommended is to provide links to the said graphics, which presumably are mounted on another server.
Just a friendly FYI...

Thanks.

[James D. Macdonald]

Those photos are, in fact, located over at photobucket.com

[JustinThorne]

Yea both images are hosted elsewhere but I am happy to simply provide a link or remove them completely if required.

If AW want to conserve bandwidth, get rid of signatures.

[Popeyesays]

It seems to me that if you cannot do returns and proper discounts, you cannot do business as a publisher.

Regards,
Scott

[JustinThorne]

Not quite right, it just means it is unlikely that you will do business with the big bookstore chains, who won't even talk to a publisher, they want to deal with distributors.

Plenty of independent bookstores will deal with a publisher and an author, but it takes hard work.

It would be great to get a deal with the likes of Gollancz, get your poster up in train stations, work with the biggest distributors who manage your returns, have a sizeable marketing budget and so on... but not every author is lucky/good enough to get that deal.

[Popeyesays]

But every publisher has to work within the system to get decent placement even on an individual bookstore basis. Why should an independent bookstore take a book and place it on the shelves without being able to turn a profit on its sale or jack the price beyond the level where anyone will buy it?

I have a very small publisher. It still offers discounts as deep as 55% AND ships and handles orders on its own dime, which deepens the discount to the stores and wholesalers.

I still can't find those books on Ingrams or Barnes and Noble's listings, so I can't go into a B&N store and even order it.

I have no desire to become an ersatz PA author hawking my book sadly and futilely to passers-by.

Regards,
Scott

[priceless1]

Not quite right, it just means it is unlikely that you will do business with the big bookstore chains, who won't even talk to a publisher, they want to deal with distributors.
Justin, this isn't true. Before we signed with a distributor, we dealt with bookstores all the time at both the local and national levels. Three of our titles were picked up for national distribution through our own efforts earlier this year. Corporate chains have a small press buyer for that very reason. Distributors deal directly with the individual buyers and bypass the small press buyers.

[JustinThorne]

priceless1, that's really encouraging... but I said it is unlikely and that's still true, although I am basing this on the experiences of a couple of authors.

Brilliant if things are changing.

Popeyesays, I agree with everything you say, I just disagree that a small publisher cannot do business without doing returns. Bloody hard, sure, but it can be and is, done.

I can't see how a small publisher can afford to supply a large chain with hundreds of books, with the potential for even half of them to come back... I'll be interested in your experiences with Capri and the sorts of numbers they send out to the distributors with a returns policy, any idea?

My publisher is similar, it isn't POD per se, but they use POD to draw down their own stocks of the book, keeping numbers for marketing, reviews and for potential orders. They are prepared to discount heavily to get listings and I believe Amazon require heavy discounts to carry titles, is this true?

[JustinThorne]

I still can't find those books on Ingrams or Barnes and Noble's listings, so I can't go into a B&N store and even order it.



I'm confused, I can find both authors at the B&N Website and Gary's is in-store in B&N in the US.

I have no desire to become an ersatz PA author hawking my book sadly and futilely to passers-by.


Why would you want to? PA never refuse anything, Writers Beware proved that with their scam the scammers project... and why would PA refuse anything, they never have anything to lose... your publisher and small publishers generally, are taking a huge gamble on a new author if you don't make any money, neither do they. It's a different relationship.

[Gary Wassner]

Okay, I'm trying to follow this.

I publish with Windstorm. Yes, there are things that they don't do for me that I wish they did. But the bottom line is they published three book in my GemQuest series to date. The quality of each was excellent. They delivered them on time to the stores. I'm on the shelves of more than 100 Barnes and Noble stores. They gave me cover control, which was important to me, and they paid the artist. They use both Ingram and Baker and Taylor as distributors, though I know they have had issues with both of them. Still, my books are in the inventory at Ingram and are easily ordered.

They aren't always easy to communicate with, but they've gotten the job done as far as my books are concerned. In fact, in December they are releasing to the trade the fourth book in my series, The Revenge of the Elves.

IMHO, they try to do too much. They don't focus on any one genre and they have multiple divisions which forces them to spread themselves thin in terms of manpower and staff. I don't get much in the way of marketing, and little in the way of advertising. But the reality is they are a small press. There are positives and negatives for me. My books don't go out of print. I don't have to worry each quarter that if there's a lull in sales, they won't print any more copies. They report sales to me promptly and I receive my royalty checks just as promptly. They are not POD and they never ever, under any circumstances, even hinted at my paying for anything they do! My contract is clear. They are my publisher and they pay for all the costs related to publishing, marketing and distributing my books. They did not pay me an advance. That's the only significant difference between them and my other publisher, who did pay me upon submission of an acceptable manuscript well after my contract was signed. But advances are recouped from your first sales anyway, so I'm not sure why it's such a big deal to get them. Bragging rights? Mine's bigger than yours? Honestly, a few thousand dollars doesn't insure any more of a committment to an author. The book can still end up nowhere and they can still reject the final msp. Then you just owe them the advance back and you can shop the book all over again elsewhere.

I'm aware of the shortcomings of this publisher, and I'm just as aware of the shortcomings of my other publisher, MONDO, who publishes my children's books. Mondo is a NYC corporate press, and the issues are totally different, but there are issues nonetheless.

Windstorm took a chance with me and published three books in my series. They released them all at the same time, a considerable committment on their part, and they've delivered them consistently in a high quality form, since the release date.

It's a tough world out there for authors today. You have to make choices and sacrifices. And, you have to be prepared to do a lot of work after the book is released. You can't sit back and hope. Windstorm has been there for me and behind me for two years now. I realize now and I realized from the onset that they couldn't afford to send out thousands of promotional copies, stuff the give-away bags at WFC with copies of my books or take out full page ads in PW or Locus. They do what they can do. And I'm grateful.


What exactly is the gripe here? I must be missing something. They're not perfect. They may be difficult at times. But who isn't? How can we criticize a small press who's trying to publish smaller authors in a market like this one, for not being all things to all people? Talk to some of my fellow authors published by major imprints who turn around to find their titles out of print and their options for the next book not picked up. I didn't worry about that. My sales have been strong. Windstorm's stuck by me in th beginning, and now, with the fourth book coming out soon, they have great hopes that it will be the breakout book of the series. I'd like to see them make a ton of money on my series. They deserve it.

[priceless1]

priceless1, that's really encouraging... but I said it is unlikely and that's still true, although I am basing this on the experiences of a couple of authors. And I maintain that it depends upon the publisher. I'm basing it on our own experience.

I just disagree that a small publisher cannot do business without doing returns. Bloody hard, sure, but it can be and is, done. The main reason a publisher doesn't offer a return policy is because they're operating on a shoestring budget. They can barely afford the print run (provided they actually do a print run rather than POD). Accepting returns eats away at their checkbook because they still had to pay for the print run. Does this sound like good, strong business sense to you?

Not offering returns is basically saying that they don't have the wherewithall to be in business. It's a black mark on those in the business because they can't compete on the most basic levels.

I can't see how a small publisher can afford to supply a large chain with hundreds of books, with the potential for even half of them to come back They have to be very savvy about the market. One option is to be conservative when fulfilling an order so they don't get as many returned.

They also have to consider the individual author's demand. Some authors take a very active role in promoting their books and may easily require thousands of books being shipped. The publisher could short the order on other authors that aren't as active or have a less demand.

[JustinThorne]

And I maintain that it depends upon the publisher. I'm basing it on our own experience.

Fair enough.

The main reason a publisher doesn't offer a return policy is because they're operating on a shoestring budget. They can barely afford the print run (provided they actually do a print run rather than POD). Accepting returns eats away at their checkbook because they still had to pay for the print run. Does this sound like good, strong business sense to you?

No it doesn't... but then that is what I am suggesting, it must be hard for small publishers to justify a returns policy. Everything you say makes sense, I am challenging the statement that a publisher cannont do business without offering returns...

[Popeyesays]

I notice a claim to be in 100 bookstores. Is that the only Windstorm book or series in those 100 bookstores?

How many thousands of bookstores and chain stores are there in the U.S.?

Obviously you CAN get a book into individual bookstores by networking with the bookstore owners.

If there are proper discounts, it's easier to do.

If return policies are offered with those discounts, it's even easier?

No returns makes for difficulty, especially with orders for more than a handful of the title in question.

That makes it harder for the publisher who is not offering discounts and returns.

That seems plainly simple to me.

Regards,
Scott

[Popeyesays]

From Preditors and Editors:
Windstorm Creative: Poor contract. Not recommended. A book publisher.

[JustinThorne]

Pred & Ed also says:

Capri Publishing: a print-on-demand publisher.

And that isn't strictly true, is it?

[priceless1]

I am suggesting, it must be hard for small publishers to justify a returns policy. Everything you say makes sense, I am challenging the statement that a publisher cannont do business without offering returns...
Would you send a football team into a game without padding and protective gear? Of course not. They need every bit of equipment offered to them in order to play the game properly. Given that perspective, sure, a small publisher can attempt to do business without a returns policy if their goal is not to sell books in any great numbers.

The truth is that bookstores will not order books in any great quantities unless a returns policy is in place. Most assuredly the small press corporate buyers won’t touch them. I don’t mean to appear dismissive, but until you sit in a publisher's chair, you can't possibly know everything that goes on behind the scenes and how things really are.

[JustinThorne]

Would you send a football team into a game without padding and protective gear? Of course not.

Yea... it's called Rugby. :tongue

I don’t mean to appear dismissive, but until you sit in a publisher's chair, you can't possibly know everything that goes on behind the scenes and how things really are.

No, no... you're quite right and I absolutely agree, that in an ideal world, or rather, an ideal contract, I'd find myself with a publisher with great relationships with distributors, a tried and tested returns and discounting policy... and a chunky marketing budget and private jet.

I hope I never sit in a publisher's chair... sounds like hard work.

[victoriastrauss]

I just skimmed their website and noticed that their royalties are now based on "gross."The exact phrase is "...the Publisher shall pay the Author a royalty on gross receipts of money received by the Publisher." This is weasel wording. No matter how many times you throw in the word "gross," when you say "publisher's receipts" you still mean "net."

The contract has been revised--for instance, the allowable time between manuscript delivery and publication has dropped from eighteen months to twelve--but it still includes some nonstandard stuff.

- Authors must register their own copyrights.

- The option clause claims first refusal on any subsequent works over 30,000 words featuring the same characters or settings. For series authors, this could amount to a perpetual option clause.

- The out of print/termination clause is much too vague. Also, for the author to terminate the contract and regain rights, the publisher must first declare the book out of print; conceivably, the publisher could remove the book from "manufacture" but refuse to declare it out of print, and the author would have no recourse for regaining rights.

- The indemnity clause makes the author responsible for everything in the event of a claim or lawsuit.

The FAQ that accompanies the contract is a major piece of disinformation in its own right. Among other things, it claims that Windstorm's 15% net royalty is "more than 50% higher than average" (average for trade paperbacks is 7.5%-10% of the cover price); that "very few publishers" include an audit clause in their contracts; that a 50% author discount is "rare"; and that the horrid option clause is "author-centric."

Also worth quoting is the FAQ's statement about copyright registration: "Windstorm does not copyright author's [sic] books for them. As a press founded and run by published authors, we encourage authors to maintain as much legal control of their work as possible. Only an author should own the copyright to their work." Well, yes--but that's irrelevant to the issue of registering copyright. Registering copyright, which a commercial publisher will do at its own expense and in the author's name, does not compromise copyright ownership. Do the people at Windstorm not know this? Or are they again employing weasel wording in order to encourage authors to think that paying for their own copyright registration is a good thing?

Windstorm appears to do a fair amount of SF/fantasy publishing, but I have never once seen a Windstorm table in the dealers' room at a con, and I can't remember the last time I saw a Windstorm book reviewed in a SF/fantasy magazine such as Locus or Chronicle. Both of these are pretty basic marketing for any small press with a SF/fantasy line. A spot check on Amazon of Windstorm's books published over the past two years turns up nary a review in industry journals such as Publishers Weekly and Booklist--despite the FAQ's claim that galleys are sent out in advance of publication. Putting this together with the books' high cover prices (which suggest POD, which in turn suggests small to nonexistent print runs) and general lack of bookstore presence, and you have to wonder what sort of marketing Windstorm actually does.

- Victoria

[James D. Macdonald]

How many thousands of bookstores and chain stores are there in the U.S.?


There are around 8,000 bookstores in the US and about 7,000 more outlets that sell books.

[Gary Wassner]

Victoria, I'm surprised at you. Why the vehemence? I have no personal realtionships with anyone at Windstorm, and yet I'm satisfied with how they've handled my publication. I've never met them, I've never seen them at the cons I go to. You're correct in that they don't have a presence at many of the places I wish they did. But the leap from that observation to a condemnation is quite unwarranted, IMHO. I work really hard at presenting my series to the fantasy public. I've been writing for years and I gained a significant following, as well as, I hope, a good deal of credibility in the genre community. Everything you say about Windstorm hurts me professionally. Have you thought about that? What have I done to bear the brunt of your criticism? I've acted with integrity and I've accepted my publisher's shortcomings as part and parcel of trying to make it in this very difficult publishing environment. I'm a member of the Author's Guild and I had my contract reviewed by them before signing it. They made suggestions and I addressed them with Windstorm. They didn't fight me on the changes I requested. They were totally reasonable. I didn't register my own copyrights. Windstorm did. They never asked me to do that. I can only speak for myself here. But honestly, you should consider the negative impact your comments might have on some of Windstorm's current and satisfied authors, in your zeal to point out their shortcomings.

They're not perfect, but they're not bad people. Are you trying to find only the bad things here? They publish books, just like any other publisher. Perhaps they have less money to pay copy editors and advertisers. Perhaps they have a small staff and can't afford to go to many conventions. Perhaps they promote themselves a little too aggressively. Perhaps they don't meet every deadline and they don't satisfy every author. Perhaps they make some mistakes. All I can testify to is that they've basically done right by me, and I'm grateful. And yet you are not doing right by me as an author in discounting my comments and not recognizing the situations where Windstorm has performed adequately.

This is the real world. I have no illusions about this business. I've worked terribly hard for many years to get my books and my name out there. In the end, it's about the books, and I fight an uphill battle each day because I don't have a major imprint behind my titles. Just think how much easier it is for an author to have TOR stuffing the bags at WFC with their author's new titles to all the people who might review them and recommend them for purchase. And instead of levelling the playing field, you're making the climb even steeper for those of us who do publish with Windstorm. I ask the question every day: Would I be better off if my books were not on the shelves? The answer's got to be 'no'.

I think it's great that you are pointing out the pitfalls of publishers. I think it's terribly important that as authors we have advocates such as you, and I admire and respect the role you're playing. But I have to admit that it hurts to hear you discount the successes that Windstorm has fostered, and only promote the negatives. It hurts me! And it impacts negatively on me. I've done nothing wrong by choosing them to publish my series. So, please keep that in mind. I work too hard to see my books thrown out with the bathwater. I'm not in collusion with them. I don't make their policies or sit in on their procedural meetings. They didn't write my books. I did. And I'm just an author who wants his books read by as many people as possible. I'm an outsider to the industry, banging on the doors, and unfortunately, when they're shut in my publisher's face, they're also shut in mine.

I told my friend yesterday that I regretted posting here, after he advised me of this thread. I shouldn't feel that way. But I have to be candid when it comes to something as important as my writing and I'm getting the feeling as if some of you are looking at this as an 'us vs. them' thread. I'm not the 'us' and I'm not the 'them'. I'm just a struggling writer trying to find an element of success and validation in a very unforgiving industry. Don't forget about the authors, in your zeal to provide information on the publishers.

Thanks.

[victoriastrauss]

Gary, I'm very sorry you feel injured by my comments. That certainly wasn't my intent. My comments weren't directed at you--or at any of Windstorm's authors, all of whom, I'm sure, are doing everything they can to help make their books successful--but at the publisher. A good publisher should be able to withstand some criticism. If not, something is very wrong.

You yourself admit that Windstorm has shortcomings. I take a sharper view than you, but I'm concerned that authors thinking of approaching Windstorm are aware of both sides of the picture. People who come here can read my posts and yours, and make up their own minds.

I'm glad you're satisfied with your Windstorm experience, and I honestly wish you all success and fortune.

- Victoria

[Popeyesays]

Gary,

I hope you don't take any of this personally. I also went to a publisher that most of the wisdom (highly earned wisdom, I might add) of the people here told me to avoid. I managed not to take it personally, and I do not think you should either. It's well meaning.

I see the small presses drying up for submissions these days--in the SF&F range, about 50-60% of them have been on a no new submission basis for longer than I would like to see. I see the big houses drowning in submissions to the point that the waiting period has become ridiculous.

I think that a new author, or an old author bucking the stream should seriously consider finding a publisher that is actually desiring to create books for the market. If it helps them to prosper, that's even better.

I didn't like Windstorm's contract so I never submitted there. I saw no indication that they might negotiate the contract in favor of their writers. I don't have the Guild's legal assistance either, though I could have joined the union (NWU) and gotten theirs.

I wish you luck with your books. I'm sure Victoria and Uncle Jim and all the others wish you the same good fortune. They are just wary that others might go a publishing route that is much more fraught with dangerous waters than the traditional commercial publishers. They certainly said as much when I decided to go with a micropublisher and I appreciate it.

Regards,
Scott

[Gary Wassner]

Thanks Victoria. I'm certain you had no ill intent here. And I'm sure you realize as well that much more is at stake when these kinds of discussions ensue than simply the publisher's reputation. The books I write would be no different in content if they were published by another publisher. And yet each time a publisher is disparaged, the authors that they publish are tarnished as well, intentionally or not. People tend to think that if the publisher is being criticized, then its authors can't be credible either. It's a fine line. I agree that everyone should be able to stand up to scrutiny and account for their comments and behavior. I'm always thrilled to have my books reviewed, and though I hope the comments will be nothing but positive, that can't always be the case. Yet, other authors with whom I work or consult, or editors that have worked on my books don't suffer from my weakensses or benefit from the praise when my books are reviewed. But in cases like this discussion, the tendency to paint everyone involved with the same brush is damaging, as I'm sure you can understand, and I need to make that clear so that the honorable and hard working authors that Windstorm does sucessfully publish don't suffer unfairly.

It's hard to separate things sometimes. If store owners read this thread, they may be reluctant to buy titles from Windstorm. The fact is, with my books, they sold with standard industry terms and the stores had the right to return before 60 days time. Barnes and Noble would not buy under any other circumstances. Who pays the price though when stores are led to believe otherwise? In the end, it's the authors, when in fact, many of their titles are well worth purchasing and reading, as I hope mine are.

As I said earlier, Windstorm is not perfect. But they're getting better as time passes. Their response time is much shorter, they have a larger staff now, the physical quality of their books is high, the editing is better, their deliveries are prompt. These things need to be mentioned.

[Gary Wassner]

Popeye, I don't take any of this personally. I've been in this buisness too long to do that. None of this is personal, but it can have an effect on me personally. And honestly, I feel bad for some of the other authors at Windstorm who are just seeing their books come to market and are reading these things as well. They should be informed, but they should be informed within perspective.

The system that's sprung up around us is so difficult to manage. The submission process is unbelievably difficult to navigate. In some case at some of the larger presses, you can wait 6 - 12 months for a response if your msp is unsolicited and unagented. And only a few presses accept unsolicited msps. I would discourage any author from publishing with a scam publisher certainly, but I would not discourage them from publishing with a small or independent publisher simply because their distribution potential is not as great as Random House's or because they don't have tables at the genre conventions or because their contract on its face has clauses you don't like or are uncomfortable with. Negotiate them. Talk to the publisher. Don't run away from a chance that just might turn out to be a postive situation. You have to get your work into the market in an acceptable form. The options are not so plentiful today.

[Tsu Dho Nimh]

I can't see how a small publisher can afford to supply a large chain with hundreds of books, with the potential for even half of them to come back.

Deep pockets and offset printing

Getting INTO publishing, unless your career forged the contacts you need, and gave you the knowledge of the process, can be an expensive mistake. Going POD to minimize your risk and up-front investment also cuts your potential profits.

[JustinThorne]

Can someone expand on offest printing?

I'm not a publisher but as many of you have illustrated, it really helps new authors if they understand the process when they are talking with their publishers or indeed, researching potential agents etc.

[Popeyesays]

Offset printing is done with photographic plates using INK. Digital printing is an off-shoot of xerography, each page is photographed as the page is printed and TONER leaves the imprint on the paper.

An offset press is much faster and using metal photographic plates, the 100,000th imprint is just as clean as the first. One can tell toner from ink by examining with a printer's loupe or feeling the surface of the page delicately to detect the slight raised texture of toner as opposed it ink.

Toner is tiny plastic pellets that heat adheres to the page, thus the tiny bump when touching it. Ink is pressed to the paper with no extra heat required.

Letterpress is another method of applying ink to paper using physical type framed into a mechanical device which physically presses the type onto the paper.

Offset is much cheaper for longer runs than digital printing. Ink is cheaper than toner, and less power is used since there is no heating involved.

Regards,

Scott

[JustinThorne]

Wow, thanks for the detailed response, popeye!

Is there any noticeable quality difference to the reader?

Also, is there any benefit to the small publisher, not talking so much about economies of scale, we know the smaller companies can't afford massive print-runs... I.E. what happens if there is an error, do you have to pay for new plates?

I'm asking because I want to have the conversation with my own publisher.

[Popeyesays]

Wow, thanks for the detailed response, popeye!

Is there any noticeable quality difference to the reader?

Also, is there any benefit to the small publisher, not talking so much about economies of scale, we know the smaller companies can't afford massive print-runs... I.E. what happens if there is an error, do you have to pay for new plates?

I'm asking because I want to have the conversation with my own publisher.

To the reader? Not really. Toner fades a little after exposure to light, but a book is closed except when you are reading a particular page, so it's not really much of an issue.

As to errors; yes, someone has to pay for new plates. However, galleys are usually run from paper plates and the metal plates are not made until the galleys have been approved.

Paper plates are cheap, but the impression begins to degrade after seven or eight hundred pages are run. Tht's part of the reason costs drop so sharply after one thousand impressions. Metal plates are not always used for runs of a thousand, because a new paper plate is not very expensive. When I used to sell printing metal plates were an extra charge.

We did not do a lot of runs over a thousand, and when we did, it was rarely a book, though we could do our own perfect binding when necessary.

Regards,
Scott

[JustinThorne]

I appreciate you are typing one-handed today, popeye, so thanks for your time.

So would you say the POD approach from a small publisher's perspective makes sense? Assuming they produce enough for promotion/reviews etc. and taking into account that quality is not an issue as you have described above?

I ask because, and I will be honest, I was initially disappointed when my publisher told me they manage their stocks using POD. They pointed out that they are NOT a POD imprint but they do use POD for their runs and I didn't really understand the difference until visiting this forum.

[Popeyesays]

For a small press, it makes sense. The issue is: How big a cash outlay can I handle? Making a run-even small is important since otherwise you have the problem of order fulfillmkent taking weeks rather than days.

Most PODding is done by Lightning Source. So if you order your books one at a time, that single copy has to fit into their press schedule, and the press is more efficiently scheduled to do print runs rather than single copy books.

This is where PA makes their biggest, and ugliest technical mistake. It makes order fulfillment wretched. Combine that with their appallingly irresponsible bookkeeping and the results are tragic.

Regards,
Scott

[JustinThorne]

Brilliant, thanks for letting me hijack the thread and your left hand for a little while! Apologies everyone.

Just on Tsu's point, how then does going POD "cut your potential profits."

[Tsu Dho Nimh]

POD is used by large publishers for ARCs and galleys. It's marvelous for them.

Printing presses now have a "direct to printing plate" process that goes right from a PDF to the offset press plates. The presses are still a labor-intensive thing to set up, but they print huge sheets of paper, or from a big roll, so they are lots faster than POD (think huge laser printer)

I find the quality noticeably different, but I bought printing services for a while. The toner splatters a bit and the type isn;t as crisp at amall sizes.

POD decreases the capital required to get in the market, but it makes the books less price-competitive. That isn't a problem in a niche market, but readers look at a POD SF or romance paparback for $15 and realize they can buy two non-POD books for the same price. And the POD can't get down into the $2 and under printed price for 5000 copies.

The worst thing that can happen to a POD house is that a book becomes wildly popular: they either have to pay upfront to an offset printer or watch a lot of potential profit go out the door.

[JustinThorne]

Ah, I see... so it's the end consumer price that makes POD a less-effective model for the small press. Could the publisher accept tighter margins? What sort of cost price is a POD book coming in at in small runs?

[LloydBrown]

For a small press, it makes sense. The issue is: How big a cash outlay can I handle? Making a run-even small is important since otherwise you have the problem of order fulfillmkent taking weeks rather than days.

It CAN make sense. It's not an automatic decision. It depends on 1) how many books the publisher sells over what time frame and 2) how much liquid capital the publisher maintains. To a lesser degree, it depends on whether the publisher knows how to compute the net present value of his investments, and how expensive his storage space is (my publisher called me to let me know when the sixteen tons of my first print run showed up).

My main issue with POD is that a publisher who chooses it as the best method for producing his books is admitting that he won't sell many books and is choosing a course of action that hinders a title's ability to become a breakout success. If a publisher's pretty certain that you're only going to sell 500 books, why are you bothering?

[JustinThorne]

But what kind of numbers are we talking about to make the 'plate' approach viable?

[LloydBrown]

Could the publisher accept tighter margins?

Legally yes, but why? Profit is the whole point of the exercise.

If they sell 1,000 books to make the same profit as 800, they've worked 25% harder for the same money. That's effort that could have been spent on another title. The only person happier is the writer--not an employee, not a shareholder, and, depending on the writer's career goals, possibly not even a person they'll work with again.

What sort of cost price is a POD book coming in at in small runs?Lulu.com has a book price calculator on its website. You can go play with all the variables to see how it works.

Offset is traditionally considered a better value at only about 1,000 books. Depending on how much cheaper it is, you might be able to print 800, throw away 200 (or better yet, use them for your promotional efforts) and still have a better deal on your hands than if you'd PODed 800 a dribble at a time.

[Popeyesays]

It CAN make sense. It's not an automatic decision. It depends on 1) how many books the publisher sells over what time frame and 2) how much liquid capital the publisher maintains. To a lesser degree, it depends on whether the publisher knows how to compute the net present value of his investments, and how expensive his storage space is (my publisher called me to let me know when the sixteen tons of my first print run showed up).

My main issue with POD is that a publisher who chooses it as the best method for producing his books is admitting that he won't sell many books and is choosing a course of action that hinders a title's ability to become a breakout success. If a publisher's pretty certain that you're only going to sell 500 books, why are you bothering?

There are a number of very dignified and prestigious small presses who do a first run of 500 to 750 books in hard cover. They even do it in offset. Ask them why they bother.

A book that has gone through several printings of 500 in six months may attract attention for a mass market edition.

Sixteen tons of books in trade formet is a run of about 20,000. I(n hard cover it's probably about 15,000. The big houses run 30-50,000 for a book they think has a good chance of selling well at the upper end of the mid-list.

To the publisher it is still a matter of how much cash can I put down on the barrel head. Even Random House probably doesn't get better terms than 90 days from the printer. Most print runs are going to be paid for in advance of production.

Deeper pockets make for bigger runs, that doesn't make a small press bad, simjply because they don't have deep pockets. I'd rather sell to Random House, too. Unfortunately they don't take unagented MSS.

I wish you every good fortune in your books, Lloyd. I wish you would do the same for others.

Regards,
Scott

Regards,
Scott

[LloydBrown]

Which brings us a perfect opportunity to come back on topic: Windstorm claims print runs in the thousands to its prospective authors, when they are LYING with every word.

Can you imagine why the publisher would want to deceive an author? What good is it, unless the publisher's financial success is somehow dependent upon that author? The publisher's success should depend on selling books to readers. It looks like they want to be another Publish America.

[JustinThorne]

Legally yes, but why? Profit is the whole point of the exercise.

If they sell 1,000 books to make the same profit as 800, they've worked 25% harder for the same money. That's effort that could have been spent on another title. The only person happier is the writer--not an employee, not a shareholder, and, depending on the writer's career goals, possibly not even a person they'll work with again.


Doesn't increased volume lead to more profit if you understand what uplift is required to make the price decision worthwhile? It certainly does in most industries.

Who says they have to 'work' harder to bring in the extra 25%? Someone just stated that price may turn off the bulk of interest in a POD book, so if they (the publisher) reduce their margins to encourage greater numbers... I can't see it as anything other than a logical strategy.

The only person who's happiness should be considered, is the consumer, isn't it? Of course within reason, a business has to be profitable.

I wonder if Gary is happy to share his numbers? Why would Windstorm make money from the authors if they aren't charging any fees?

[LloydBrown]

There are a number of very dignified and prestigious small presses who do a first run of 500 to 750 books in hard cover. They even do it in offset. Ask them why they bother.

I don't need to, having explained the value of such an action myself. There's a huge difference between "first print" and "lifetime sales." Also, "first print" is meaningless when you're referring to POD.

Sixteen tons of books in trade formet is a run of about 20,000. In hard cover it's probably about 15,000. It was a heavy hardback. A thirty-dollar one, to be exact. Cha-ching!

To the publisher it is still a matter of how much cash can I put down on the barrel head. Hence my comment about liquid capital.

Deeper pockets make for bigger runs, that doesn't make a small press bad, simjply because they don't have deep pockets.
It might not make them "evil", but it does make them unable to sell many books. If a publisher can't afford to print your books, can't afford to ship your books, and can't afford any retail incentives, they won't sell many books. Cash on hand is always a healthy sign for a business.

I wish you every good fortune in your books, Lloyd. I'm pretty happy so far, thanks. And to you, also.

[Popeyesays]

But what kind of numbers are we talking about to make the 'plate' approach viable?

Offset becomes enough cheapr than xerography at about a thousand copies. Paper plates are desirable for about a thousand copies.

Metal plates become necessary at five or ten thousand impressions because by then you've made five or ten paper plates requiring you to shoot the image each time. Going and making repeated copies of the paper plates increases the press time. Paper plates are just discarded when the image degrades.

Metal plates are filed away for repeated use.

Offset printing requires physical press set ups for each press run. The press must be cleaned and fresh ink added to the reservoirs. Multiple colors require separate print runs with careful registration of the image, and each run requires the press to be cleaned.

So a color cover requires at least four print runs, and probably five if the cover text is black or white. Then each set of pages requires it's own plate and print run. You usually get several pages of the book to a single sheet of paper, but back printing the pages requires careful attention to flip the pages properly and get the right back to every front.

All this requires press time and labor time. So it makes more sense to run as many images as possible for each page to get the per page cost down.

A digital press (POD) is less messy and easier to handle, but fewer impressions per print run maintains a regular cost per copy. As I understand it (for I have never seen a press like Lightning Press actually run) the POD process is highly automated, and Xerography can run color copies in one pass through the press. But that one pass is more expensive than offset.

One of the printers I know well was asked to make national and military flags in 1:60 scale for wargamers. The publisher wanted offset because the image is sharper. Full color required intensely careful registration at that tiny size and was a pain in the *** for the printer to do. If xerography had been acceptable to the publisher, it would have just meant photo manipulation of the images and a single pass through the xerox.

Regards,
Scott

[LloydBrown]

Doesn't increased volume lead to more profit if you understand what uplift is required to make the price decision worthwhile? It certainly does in most industries.

With POD, if you're printing books to order, you don't get the benefit of economy of scale. If you sell 1,000 books and print them singly as customers order, you spent 1,000 times the cost of one book. "Aha!" you say. :) Even if you do print in batches, the reduction in cost still does not reach the low costs of offset printing.

Who says they have to 'work' harder to bring in the extra 25%? Someone just stated that price may turn off the bulk of interest in a POD book, so if they (the publisher) reduce their margins to encourage greater numbers... I can't see it as anything other than a logical strategy.

Great! So they'll cut it down to a penny over cost and you'll have a best-seller! Sadly, no. You have fallen victim to the first-time entrepreneur's most dangerous trap. "I'll make more money if my product's cheaper." Your return on investment has to be substantial enough to keep making the product. Below a certain percentage (which depends on your operating costs and your sales volume and velocity), you can't sustain operations.

I wonder if Gary is happy to share his numbers? Why would Windstorm make money from the authors if they aren't charging any fees? Because they give them this line that to be successful, authors have to peddle their own books. Thus, the authors buy books and sell them door-to-door. Or bookstore to bookstore, as the case may be. Pitching to readers is risky. It involves dealing with distributors, taking returns, setting discount margins. Selling to authors is easy: set your book price very high, offer authors a 40% discount and let them go at it.

[JustinThorne]

Well I have to say, Lloyd, you are over-simplifying again and creating scenarios to justify your points, that are not the same scenarios I am basing my questions on.

With POD, if you're printing books to order, you don't get the benefit of economy of scale. If you sell 1,000 books and print them singly as customers order, you spent 1,000 times the cost of one book. "Aha!" you say. Even if you do print in batches, the reduction in cost still does not reach the low costs of offset printing.


But I'm not talking about a POD model, I am talking about a publisher who uses POD to run batches (under 1000 now that is clear). The aim is to get the consumer price of the book as close to the price of Offset produced books, so the publisher can calculate what is an acceptable margin based on the numbers in the batch with the assumption the price will encourage greater volume. I'm still waiting for someone to give an approximate cost price of a POD produced book.

Great! So they'll cut it down to a penny over cost and you'll have a best-seller! Sadly, no. You have fallen victim to the first-time entrepreneur's most dangerous trap. "I'll make more money if my product's cheaper." Your return on investment has to be substantial enough to keep making the product. Below a certain percentage (which depends on your operating costs and your sales volume and velocity), you can't sustain operations.

I never mentioned aiming for a bestseller, or selling at a penny above cost... as I said above, I am proposing a margin that brings a POD book to a similar RRP as an Offset book... is that unreasonable, even being a niave entrepreneur? I'm not talking about cost-leadership here or even price promotions, just a reasonable gross margin.

Because they give them this line that to be successful, authors have to peddle their own books. Thus, the authors buy books and sell them door-to-door. Or bookstore to bookstore, as the case may be. Pitching to readers is risky. It involves dealing with distributors, taking returns, setting discount margins. Selling to authors is easy: set your book price very high, offer authors a 40% discount and let them go at it.


You really are quite the cynic, which is no bad thing I suppose.

[Popeyesays]

Well I have to say, Lloyd, you are over-simplifying again and creating scenarios to justify your points, that are not the same scenarios I am basing my questions on.



But I'm not talking about a POD model, I am talking about a publisher who uses POD to run batches (under 1000 now that is clear). The aim is to get the consumer price of the book as close to the price of Offset produced books, so the publisher can calculate what is an acceptable margin based on the numbers in the batch with the assumption the price will encourage greater volume. I'm still waiting for someone to give an approximate cost price of a POD produced book.

Go to Lulu.com and use their cost calculator, take note of the price as it can be calculated based on number of copies run in the batch. Please note that going direct to Lightning Source is cheaper. I estimate the difference to be about 15-30%. I'm sorry--I can't get it closer than than. One should always check with local printers to see if the cost is less than Lightning Source PLUS shipping.

Regards,
Scott

[Duncan J Macdonald]

Go to Lulu.com and use their cost calculator, take note of the price as it can be calculated based on number of copies run in the batch. Please note that going direct to Lightning Source is cheaper. I estimate the difference to be about 15-30%. I'm sorry--I can't get it closer than than. One should always check with local printers to see if the cost is less than Lightning Source PLUS shipping.
A quick Google yields the Lightning Source US POD Operations Manual (https://www.lightningsource.com/ops/files/pod/USPODOpsManual.pdf), where Appendix A gives the costs. Given a 200 page finished .pdf file, we get:
Fixed Costs
1) $50.00 Cover set up fee
2) $30.00 Text set up fee ($0.15 p page)
3) $12.00 to keep your files in the digital library for a year.
Per Run Costs
4) $ 1.30 per unit (assuming a 6 x 9 trade paper)
5) $ 3.60 text (at $0.018 per page)

Total for the First book of the year is $96.90. Thereafter, each book printed costs $4.90

I won't go into the setting the discount and cover prices to make money discussion.

[Tsu Dho Nimh]

Justin ...

Note where the price/book trend crosses over the POD pricing - that's the break-even point - it's lower than the POD publishers claim, because they aren't the only ones taking advantage of new stuff. I can send a PDF to a local printer, get back a digital proof and they can go "Direct-to-Plate" or "computer to plate" ... skipping a lot of steps such as making films and exposing plates but still coming out with off-set quality.

304 pages (298 in text)

LULU.com (they actually do LESS for authors than Windstorm, but they do have the same clout that any publisher would with the people who actually own the POD equipment ... it's hideously expensive)

Unit price by run size
1 = 10.62
100 = $8.84
250 = $8.12
500 = $7.73
1000 = $7.53
2000 = $7.44

Notice how they level off near the $7.50 mark. That's because they have to pay for their costs ... each 200 page book printed by lightningsource costs $4.90 ... but the publisher and author have to live.

OFFSET
http://www.bgroundprinting.com/request_for_quotation.htm

300 pages (cover options priced separately)

Unit price
100 = 14.16 +$795 (guess) total = $22.11
250 = 7.41 +$795 (guess) total = $10.59
500 = 5.46 +$795 total = $7.05
1000 = 4.33 +$1050 total = $5.38
2500 = 3.88 +$1120 total =
5000 = 3.56 +$1458 total =

There is a lot more room to do discounts and price attractively. And eat.

**********
You have to be able to pay up front for BOTH forms of publishing ... net 90 is as good as it EVER gets, and net 30 is usual unless you have great D&B ratings. (discounts for up-front payments can be had).

If a micro-press is sticking to POD technology, it's because they are cash-poor and can't front the money to get offset. They could be making a lot more money, if only they had a bit to get the process rolling, but they don't.

By bootstrapping off a successful niche book - paying for offset runs out of his savings, then out of book profits - my ONLY successful self-published acquaintance is now a full-blown micro publisher with cash on hand for paying those pesky printers.

[Tsu Dho Nimh]

I never mentioned aiming for a bestseller, or selling at a penny above cost... as I said above, I am proposing a margin that brings a POD book to a similar RRP as an Offset book... is that unreasonable, even being a niave entrepreneur? I'm not talking about cost-leadership here or even price promotions, just a reasonable gross margin.

As shown previously ... not very likely. What you want is running smack into economics and technology. To beat standard publishing on modest sales of 5,000 books, you would have to cut your margins to unsustainably low levels.

POD is only cost-effective for NICHE publishing: either a locked-in market, specialty subject, or predicted tiny sales.

Even today, my friends who buy print for user manuals go offset unless the manual is shipping less than 3-500 a year. Do you plan to sell less than 500 books?

[William]

Which brings us a perfect opportunity to come back on topic: Windstorm claims print runs in the thousands to its prospective authors, when they are LYING with every word.

Can you imagine why the publisher would want to deceive an author? What good is it, unless the publisher's financial success is somehow dependent upon that author? The publisher's success should depend on selling books to readers. It looks like they want to be another Publish America.

Hi Lloyd,

I am not certain I understand how Windstorm is seeking to be another PA. Gary, who is an author for Windstorm, has said that they have paid for everything and that he has not paid them money for anything. My understanding of PA is that they get their money by charging their authors for things. It would seem that Windstorm has to at least sell enough books to make back the money they are spending on things like editing, cover art, etc.

William

[LloydBrown]

PA doesn't charge the author for a thing, except for books. However, they also don't sell any books to readers, leaving it all up to the author and stressing to the author how much work there is for the author to do after he's "published."

Average PA sales are about 75 books per title, including sales to the author. I suspect that the average number of author purchases is around 40, based on the many claims I've read here on AW and on the PAMB. That means the majority of PA's books are sold to its authors.

Windstorm sold fewer than 20 copies of one of its books during that book's first year of release. 20 books! The incompetence implicit in sales of 20 books is superlative. Based on comments the author has made, he purchased more than 20 to sell locally. When you're selling more books to the author than you are to the reading public, you're a vanity publisher.

Let's look at income first. Each author spends $500 to $600, and the book makes a few "gravy" sales to readers, bringing in maybe another $200.

Now expenses. I don't know how Windstorm generates its cover art, but PA pays a monthly fee for a clip-art catalog. Each book's portion of the clip-art costs only a few pennies, the graphic designer's hourly wages might run $20-30, and the $7.50/hour editor runs it through spell-checker for a while, add in the ISBN, they're spending maybe $100 in pre-production. Lightning Source might charge them $450 for the books and shipping.

This is back-of-the-envelope math, of course, but even accounting for a margin of error, you can see that a publisher can turn a fair profit off of author sales if they keep their costs low enough.

If a publisher spends money on advances, production and marketing, then the publisher soon realizes that the relative handful the author buys won't pay the bills. *That's* a publisher with incentive to sell books.

[Matthew Peterson]

Since Windstorm has about a dozen employees and around 200 contracted authors, I can see that by following your math (say $300 profits from each author), Windstorm has like $60,000 to split among 12 people every year. Well, I guess that is assuming that all 200 authors are buying $500 to $600 of their own books every year. Does this sound ridiculous? It does to me. If Windstorm really was trying to make their money from their own authors, they'd be better off working at McDonalds.

My wait time was 1 year and 1 week before they accepted my books. If they wanted my money, they wouldn't have taken so long to get back with me. And they wouldn't make authors jump through hoops before they submit books to them (i.e. their way of separating the chaff from the wheat).

I should introduce myself. I am a new author who signed up with Windstorm a few months ago. They will publish my first two books next year. Like Gary, I too have many good things to say about the company. I was able to negotiate a couple of things in the contract, without an agent. At my own request, I was able to do my own cover (you can see it on my website: www.paraworlds.com (http://www.paraworlds.com) ) and they are paying me for it.

I read this message board before I signed the contract, so I was informed of everyone's opinions and I knew what I was getting myself into. I also checked them out on Goliath (a website to find out if a company is in trouble or not, financially) and they were financially sound. I asked two different people at Windstorm what type of printing they do, and they both told me that they do offset printing (normal runs of 8,000 to 10,000 for a book like mine). I am not displeased with my decision. I think Windstorm will be a great fit for my books and for my personality. I don't expect to get rich off of this, but I will make some money.

I don't know what to say about the poor results for that one book you are referring to. They do a lot of different types of books, of all sizes. I suspect that my book, which is a YA science fantasy, will do well. I've already had several Borders stores tell me that they will stock it. I've gotten a few author blurbs. And I've had some good contact with Locus (it didn't hurt that I sat next to their editors during the last Nebula Banquet).

I should mention that Windstorm is now going to pay advances to their more established authors.

[LloydBrown]

Since Windstorm has about a dozen employees and around 200 contracted authors, I can see that by following your math (say $300 profits from each author), Windstorm has like $60,000 to split among 12 people every year.

I doubt they have a staff of 12 full-time employees.

I don't expect to get rich off of this, but I will make some money. How do you know that? What's so different about your book that separates it from their other books?

I should mention that Windstorm is now going to pay advances to their more established authors. Until I see a scan of an advance check, I think you should mention that Windstorm is *claiming* to pay advances. They've made other claims, too.

[Matthew Peterson]

At their website I show 12 main employees with 5 or 6 additional employees who work in customer service for their authors. I've talked with at least 8 of these people so far and found them to be very nice to work with.
http://www.windstormcreative.com/global/staff.htm

You can't make a blanket statement that every book from Windstorm is going to fail. I said I'd make some money. I didn't say I'd get rich. A true publisher cannot survive without legitimate sales. They can't stay in business year after year without making the majority of their money from readers, bookstores, and distributors buying their books (not from their own authors). If they were another PA, they wouldn't take so long to accept submissions and they would make it easier to submit (it's actually a bit of a chore to submit to them).

Here's one of their books that has sold over 60,000 copies. Wow, I bet the author really had to shell out a lot of money to pay for 60,000 of their own books. I'm kidding, of course.
http://www.windstormcreative.com/windstorm/73971.htm

[Popeyesays]

At their website I show 12 main employees with 5 or 6 additional employees who work in customer service for their authors. I've talked with at least 8 of these people so far and found them to be very nice to work with.
http://www.windstormcreative.com/global/staff.htm

You can't make a blanket statement that every book from Windstorm is going to fail. I said I'd make some money. I didn't say I'd get rich. A true publisher cannot survive without legitimate sales. They can't stay in business year after year without making the majority of their money from readers, bookstores, and distributors buying their books (not from their own authors). If they were another PA, they wouldn't take so long to accept submissions and they would make it easier to submit (it's actually a bit of a chore to submit to them).

Here's one of their books that has sold over 60,000 copies. Wow, I bet the author really had to shell out a lot of money to pay for 60,000 of their own books. I'm kidding, of course.
http://www.windstormcreative.com/windstorm/73971.htm

The book in question is Virtual Rock by Cris DiMarco:

"Senior Editor Cris DiMarco is an accomplished author of fiction, science fiction and short stories, as well as a widely published photographer and essayist. Cris holds a Bachelors degree in English and Creative Writing from the University of Massachusetts at Boston, and a Masters degree in Teaching from Tufts University. She graduated summa cum laude from both institutions. Cris has received acclaim for her unique approach to editing which blends a respect for the author's voice with an uncanny understanding of a reader's needs. She has been with Windstorm since 1994 and currently serves on the Advisory Board of Directors, the council that advises Windstorm's Chief Executive Officer."

from Windstorm Creative, a second edition. Cris DiMarco also seems to be the author of their "very successful" King Arthur series. The earliest WIndstorm books seem to be by Cris DiMarco.

This would lead one to believe that the purpose of the imprint is largely to publish Cris DiMarco's own books? And, if so, do they work harder on distributing that author's books than they might on someone else's?

Regards,
Scott

[soloset]

Here's one of their books that has sold over 60,000 copies. Wow, I bet the author really had to shell out a lot of money to pay for 60,000 of their own books. I'm kidding, of course.
http://www.windstormcreative.com/windstorm/73971.htm

I'd want to know if there's any support for that number besides the claim on the website, first. Not that I'm saying it's a lie, just that I'd like to know what it's based on, as numbers can be unreliable.

I'd also want to know if that's in the last year or so, or since the book's original publication in 1996 (according to Amazon). And, since it does say "worldwide", if the sales were mostly in the US or outside of it.

ETA: And what Scott asked, since I didn't think of that but it's a good question!

[Lauri B]

Well, I can tell you that if this book DID sell 60,000 copies, it wasn't through traditional bookstore channels.

[LloydBrown]

A true publisher cannot survive without legitimate sales.

So, what you're saying is that Publish America, iUniverse, BookSurge and all of the other publishers who exist on the very business model I outlined don't exist? They all work on that model and sell thousands, if not millions, of books at a dozen or two per title.

Here's one of their books that has sold over 60,000 copies. I don't believe the claim. Right now, Virtual Rock is sitting at over 2.1 million on Amazon--a figure consistent with an annual sale rate of 1-2 copies. A tiny handful are available through online sources. None are available on eBay.

Books have a fairly predictable graph of sales over time, although the slant of the line is different for big publisher's books and small press (small press is a flatter). Either Virtual Rock had the most precipitous drop-off rate ever, or--here's a thought--Windstorm is lying, and the book's sales follow a more normal sales pattern and the current ranking indicates a much lower total figure than 60,000.

We know they've lied elsewhere, and especially to their authors. Ask them where I can find a copy on a bookshelf in Jacksonville, Florida. I'll go ask the staff at that bookstore how well they've done with it.

[James D. Macdonald]

So, what you're saying is that Publish America, iUniverse, BookSurge and all of the other publishers who exist on the very business model I outlined don't exist?

No, he's saying they aren't true publishers.

[James D. Macdonald]

Per Ingram's stock check number (615) 213-6803:

Virtual Rock, ISBN 1-883573-97-1


0 on hand
0 on order
0 on backorder
0 orders this week
0 orders last week
0 sold this year
0 sold last year

[Matthew Peterson]

Yeah, I'm not too surprised that Ingram's doesn't have it in stock. There's a very small percentage of books written over 10 years ago (i.e. 1996 as someone else stated) that are still at Ingram's. I think a lot of smaller presses do sell their books in ways that the big publishers would not. There's no denying that the big publishers have the monopoly on the bookshelves of B&N and Borders.

I've known of many editors who also write or who have been published before they became an editor. It's not uncommon, and it really shouldn't be a deterrent to do business with them. It just means they might actually have some experience on both ends of the spectrum. Now if the only books the publisher had published were from the editor, that would raise a red flag (and I have seen a couple of small presses in that
category).

[soloset]

To be more specific, the original edition came out in 1996 (according to Amazon) under the title The White Bones of Truth. The newer edition (reprint?) is called Virtual Rock (2001, again from Amazon). The claim of 60,000 books worldwide is beneath the reprint's listing on the Windstorm website.

I'd honestly have to see a lot more proof before I was comfortable with that number. And is that a reasonable goal for most Windstorm authors?

Now if the only books the publisher had published were from the editor, that would raise a red flag (and I have seen a couple of small presses in that category).

That's not a small press. That's a self-publishing company. A persona -- a fake created to convince the world that the book isn't self-pubbed, honest. Which might be a good strategy for certain books, but not SF as far as I can see.

And I don't think anyone has a problem with editors who write or are published. It's writers who feel that failing to sell a book makes them qualified to sell or publish other people's books that worry me.

[William]

Hi all,

It seems to me that this is a very good example of how there are a wide variety of publishers out there. As writers, I am sure we all have various goals for our writing (my wife, for example, is interested in sales but is even more interested in maintaining 'ownership' of her characters and setting ideas). I have spoken to some aspiring authors that have expressed a very high interest in working closely with the editor and not being treated like a 'number' (communication was very important to him). I have also met authors that are particularly interested in not participating in the marketing or selling of the book--they just want to write the book, turn it over to the publisher, and start working on the next book. There are yet other authors that do not really care about any of that--it is all about how much money can they expect to make.

With all the diversity in authors, there is also a huge diversity in publishers. The publishing industry is changing as more and more barriers to entry are torn down (and with e-books being the fastest growing portion of the industry, and more established companies looking to utilize the strengths of electronic publications, these barriers are likely to continue to be reduced). There are a number of people that for publishing companies that have never worked in 'publishing'... instead, they are taking their ability to organize resources (human and otherwise), their ability to innovate, and their skills at selling and applying those elements to publishing. [As an aside: this is one of the reasons why I am usually not convinced by discussion about "This is how publishing really works"... more and more people that did not grow up in that industry are offering alternatives].

My advice to any author is to learn about the publisher, ask questions, recognize that contracts really are always negotiable (my graduate work was in negotiation, and it is very rare that anything in this world is truly not negotiable), so be ready to negotiate. Communicate your expectations, and what you bring to the table. The publisher should communicate what they expect, and what they bring to the table. This honest exchange of information can help both of you find a good match (even if it is not each other).

No other person can really tell you "this is a bad publisher" unless they know all of your goals and priorities. Is Windstorm good for a particular author? That depends on a lot... for example, what are the goals and expectations of the author. Even if you were to assume that the author's only goal is 'how much money am I going to make,' then how good is the author at promoting him/herself? Can the author work collaboratively with Windstorm (or any other small press, for that matter) to develop and implement an effective method of increasing exposure and sales? Is the author looking for a publisher that the author can just send in the manuscript, and wait for the money to come rolling in? If so, then a lot of small press companies are probably not going to be good for them. While that limits them to bigger publishers, it is important for them to know what they are expecting and only look at publishers that can get them that.

Sorry for the long post...:)

William

[LloydBrown]

Can the author work collaboratively with Windstorm (or any other small press, for that matter) to develop and implement an effective method of increasing exposure and sales?

With some publishers, the answer to that question is ALWAYS no. These publishers do not make the books available for sale in ways that are conducive to bulk selling. Again, Publish America is the best-known example. Authors constantly get out there and push and push and push, but they DO NOT sell books. No amount of collaboration or marketing will make your Publish America book sell.

From what we've seen so far, Windstorm has everything in common with PA and nothing in common with publishers who sell books to readers.

1. Accept any genre--check
2. Solicit authors on the website--check
3. Not listed with Writer's Market--check
4. Emphasizes how much work authors have to do--check
5. Deceives authors about how much work they (the publisher) will contribute--check
6. Established by a writer who failed to sell a book to a legitimate publisher--check
7. Little or no editing of its books--check
8. Boasting about selling "outside the traditional paradigm"--check

I will concede that their return policies seem to be legitimate, so they might have more potential than PA.

No other person can really tell you "this is a bad publisher" unless they know all of your goals and priorities. Is Windstorm good for a particular author?

William, please. I can't imagine any writer's goal is to NOT sell books to readers. "I don't want to sell books. I just want a hug!" Bah!

If you have sales information that contradicts anything visible about this company, please share--privately, if you like.

Chris DiMarco bills herself as a "child progeny" here http://www.windstormcreative.com/global/downloads/introduction.pdf, and I don't think it's a subtle Calvin & Hobbes reference. I think it's a lack of English-language mastery that should make anyone thinking about submitting to this publisher think twice. The same document uses then when it mean than, and the website has several other errors (a sentence with an extra word, it's instead of its, etc.). The sickening overuse of passive sentences would drive me up the wall from anyone, but especially from a publisher. Child progeny? Yer killin' me.

So, at a guess, what kind of author would *you* imagine is a good fit for Windstorm?

[William]

Lloyd,

I have not read the pdf, but it is actually Jennifer DiMarco that is identified as the "child progeny". She published her first book at age 16, and is understandably proud of that accomplishment.

I do not believe that an author is likely to have as a goal "I don't want to sell any books". However, I do believe that different authors can have different goals, and different priorities. I know one author, for example, that has her first priority to have her stories edify people, and to testify to the truth of the Gospel. That is very important to her... more important, in fact, than the actual numbers of copies sold. She would, in her words, rather sell 1,000 copies of the story as she wants to tell it, than 10,000 copies of it being changed to be more 'marketable'. Now, this author does want good sales, but it is not the most important thing to her.

Windstorm is a company that is deeply concerned about the environment. Our market economy has a lot of participants that are willing to pay higher prices (or potentially lose sales) in support of the ideal of protecting the environment. I am willing to guess that there are authors that would be more interested in signing with a publisher that shares the author's values, even if it means not having the skyrocketing sales of a larger press.

My wife's best friend is the nephew of a fairly well known fantasy author, Terry Goodkind. Mr. Goodkind has had some problems with publishers in the past, and ended up being confronted with a choice of staying and working with a publisher that he had a lot of problems with, or losing control over the characters and setting that he came to love. Perhaps having perpetual control over characters and setting is something that many would take over the number of sales.

You may disagree with such decisions, and that is certainly your right. However, an author should research a publisher and try to find one that is a good match for the various goals and priorities of the author.

One last thing: I found this one line in your post to be kind of ironic and wanted to point it out--
"The same document uses then when it mean than, and the website has several other errors (a sentence with an extra word, it's instead of its, etc.). "

I have a lot of typos in my messages, so I am not meaning to nit pick and point out this sentence. I did find it ironic that this was done in the very sentence you are attacking Windstorm for typos...

Take care!
William

[NicoleJLeBoeuf]

Oh, that's just Murphy's Law in action. Anyone pointing out editing nitpicks in others' posts is bound to have a typo in their own. It's like gravity.

Using "progeny" for "prodigy," however, is on another level from mere typo altogether. Typos are just a slip of the finger; they indicate carelessness but not ignorance. Problems such as than/then, it's/its, and "child progeny" (bwahaha!) do indicate ignorance as to how words should be used. It rather diminishes others' confidence in one's editorial skills.

[Matthew Peterson]

I just read some of that pdf. The Cris who wrote Virtual Rock is not the Jennifer that the pdf says was the child "progeny" who published a dozen books before she was nineteen. Same last name. Different people.

Also, the PDF doesn't really say who wrote the article. It could have been an undergraduate for all we know. But, I agree. It does grate on my nerves sometimes when I see typos and mistakes from people who should know better. I have received a couple emails from editors at other publishing companies with typos in them, and I've seen typos on websites from huge companies. I'd wager, though, that this document was created by a sales person, and not an editor.

But thanks for pointing that PDF out to me. It states that Cris "holds a Bachelors in English and Creative Writing from the University of Massachusetts at Boston and a Masters in Teaching from Tufts University, graduating magna cum laude from both institutions." Since she's my editor, it's good to know.

I like what you said, William. I wanted more freedom for my books (for example: I wanted to do my own cover, which Windstorm let me do) and so I chose Windstorm. I already make enough money from my day job. My writing is not about the money.

[James D. Macdonald]

Money is directly proportional to number of readers.

[Lauri B]

Now, this author does want good sales, but it is not the most important thing to her.

Windstorm is a company that is deeply concerned about the environment. Our market economy has a lot of participants that are willing to pay higher prices (or potentially lose sales) in support of the ideal of protecting the environment. I am willing to guess that there are authors that would be more interested in signing with a publisher that shares the author's values, even if it means not having the skyrocketing sales of a larger press.

You may disagree with such decisions, and that is certainly your right. However, an author should research a publisher and try to find one that is a good match for the various goals and priorities of the author.

So you are a publisher that appreciates authors who don't necessarily want to make money; that appreciates readers who are willing to pay higher prices because you folks care about the environment (this seems to be a non sequitor but I'm going with it for the moment); and who wants to sign authors who share your values. Well, heck, this sounds like a great deal--sign me up! I'm a publisher, too, and I'd love to find authors who don't want to make money, readers who will pay any price I set for my books (I care about the environment, too), and who would share my values. It sounds like a great business for you, except that you aren't selling books.

How do you stay in business?

I would like to quibble with your comment that e-publishing is the fastest growing segment of the publishing industry. That's just not true, at least in mainstream trade publishing. E-publishing still hasn't caught on in the mainstream marketplace, and most publishers view it as a small sideline rather than the focus of their publishing platform.

[Gary Wassner]

I swore to myself that I wasn't going to post here again on this subject. But I have to.

Would I have published with TOR if they had offered me a contract for my first three books? Sure I would have. Who wouldn't want that imprint behind your titles? But they didn't offer me one. And once I published with Windstorm, I knew that until this series was finished, I'd most likely publish with them. You can't easily change horses in mid-stream. But I know that my entire series will be published, and that's something that has value to me. Because of them, my books are out there, on the shelves, available, and doing pretty well. Though I can't retire on my Amazon sales, my ranking is not in the millions as someone mentioned another of Windstorm's titles was, but I just checked a minute ago and it's currently 40,000 for my first book. So they are selling books. And they stock all three and ship from Amazon's warehouse in 24 hours. Barnes and Noble as well.

So please, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. I'm just a baby. Give me a break. They're doing fine by me right now. And my fourth book is being released in April. Word has been spreading about my series continuously since its release. The reviews are good and the support for my characters and my story is very positive. It's hard enough writing a good Epic Fantasy series today when the cognoscenti of the reading public seems to want darker, less traditional, more graphic fantasy. For new authors of Epic Fantasy, our options are limited. I chose Windstorm because they agreed to publish my first three books and guaranty that to me. The second was not contingent upon the sales of the first, and since I had already completed all three when I negotiated with them, for me it was ideal. And it's working.

There are positives and negatives in any choices we make. So far, for me, this one has been more positive than negative. What more do you want? What has made some of you so vindictive? Have you had personal experiences with them that have been negative?

[LloydBrown]

I have not read the pdf, but it is actually Jennifer DiMarco that is identified as the "child progeny". She published her first book at age 16, and is understandably proud of that accomplishment.

My mistake on which DiMarco it was, but it's still a moronic claim, either way. The word she's looking for is "prodigy." Progeny are offspring. My reference was to a comic strip twenty-plus years ago in which 6-year old Calvin made the same mistake and his tiger friend Hobbes commented on it.

[my own words, quoted by William]"The same document uses then when it means than, and the website has several other errors (a sentence with an extra word, it's instead of its, etc."[end]

Okay, I'm having trouble seeing where *I* made any errors. I might have, but my spelling & grammar-checker doesn't find it any better than my eyes do.

I have a lot of typos in my messages, so I am not meaning to nit pick and point out this sentence. I hold a publisher's website to a higher standard than I do message board posts. In fact, you won't find me correcting issues on a post unless it's for a very specific reason (a request for crits, I'm being a jerk that day, etc.)

the very sentence you are attacking Windstorm for typos... Those aren't typos. "Teh" is a typo. Those are middle-school grammar errors. A publisher shouldn't make those in a finished document.

Edited to fix the typo.

[LloydBrown]

Also, the PDF doesn't really say who wrote the article.

Bios are generally written by the subject in third person.

[veinglory]

(when it mean[s]...) -- not that documents have intent ;)

[Lauri B]

his one has been more positive than negative. What more do you want? What has made some of you so vindictive? Have you had personal experiences with them that have been negative?
Hi Gary,
I am not vindictive about Windstorm, I just think that they have a business model that is unsustainable and the answers they give when asked specific questions don't add up. I have never met a publisher who wasn't in the business to make money, regardless of how difficult an industry it is. So when someone comes along and says that their company's mission is to support authors' goals for their writing, whether that is to sell lots of books or simply to have their words and characters preserved for eternity, it sounds incredibly disingenuous. A I've said in other threads, my role as a moderator and as someone who has experience in publishing is to comment on what is "standard" in publishing, and call someone out when they are making assertions, promises, or statements that I know just aren't true.

[NicoleJLeBoeuf]

I have never met a publisher who wasn't in the business to make money, regardless of how difficult an industry it is. So when someone comes along and says that their company's mission is to support authors' goals for their writing, whether that is to sell lots of books or simply to have their words and characters preserved for eternity, it sounds incredibly disingenuous.When a publisher overemphasizes a mission of "supporting authors' goals" or "publishing new authors," and their website seems aimed at the author seeking publication rather than the reading public, it's reasonable to assume that the publisher's target market is not the reading public but the author. This observation isn't personal to Windstorm. It's a general marketing fact. Windstorm is only one example of it.

When I shop a manuscript around, I intend the publisher to be my customer, not vice versa.

[Gary Wassner]

I understand. But what I've learned about the principals of Windstorm is that in many many respects they are as untraditional as you could imagine. I don't need to go into detail, but their buisness model is very much what I would expect it to be, knowing what their personal ideals and goals are. Would I run my business that way? No. But just because they claim to have other interests aside from mercenary ones, does not make them disingenuous. They may desire to present this type of face to the world and it may work for them, or it may not.

I'm not all that concerned with the claims they make on their website. I'm not all that concerned with what the two partners, Cris and Jennifer, have or have not written/published of their own work. Maybe I should be, but I'm not. And I don't really care very much if they are painting a brighter and more positive picture of their company than the facts would testify to. We all know what marketing is all about, and advertising and promotions. If you examine the claims of many publishers regarding best sellers, the sources of their back cover blurbs, the relationships between their sales and their returns, etc I'm sure you'll find a lot of creative marketing. As long as Windstorm is not dishonest with me, as long as I know what to expect and what not to, as long as they don't promise me things and reneg on those promises, then I'm willing to keep working with them. And as long as my books are delivered on a timely basis to any store that orders them, I'm happy.

Will I get huge distribution with them? No. They don't have the resources to ship thousands of copies as part of programmed sales and risk having the remainders returned. Who are we kidding here? I know this. They didn't promise they'd print 60,000 copies. I just want my books to be well reviewed and enjoyed. I do want them to sell and they are selling. If not for Windstorm, they wouldn't be. So let's be fair. They do some good things for some of us. They're not part of the Axis of Evil. If you have other options as an author, if you have two or three contracts on your desk for your manuscripts, then have the Author's Guild review them and give you your options. Figure out what you want out of the relationship with your publisher, what you need - an advance, high royalties, whatever - then figure out which will best serve your needs. If your only choice is Windstorm, or if you prefer a small press for some reason, then keep in mind that there is not necessarily a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. The success or failure of your book will depend a lot upon how good the book is, who chooses to review it, and sadly in many cases, who in the industry is willing to promote you and help generate a buzz for your book. P/R departments at major imprints do that. It's their job. When you're with a small press, it's different. And yes, some small presses are better than others. Nightshade for fantasy is a great example. But they didn't want to pick up my series midway through.

But it's never black and white. Some of you here may have good reasons for not publishing with Windstorm, and some of you may be disuaded and never get published at all, or find another publisher who suits your needs better. Just don't be foolish, whatever you choose. Only you know what you're willing to sacrifice and gamble on for that opportunity to be published. Don't think for a minute that a large press will be your ticket to the stars. From the time your book hits the shelves, you have basically 60 days to perform or they'll all start going back to your publisher's warehouse, no matter how much promotion is behind them.

I wonder sometimes where my books would be now if I had the support of a larger press. I believe that they would be more available, and that they would be selling in larger numbers. I think I'd have less stress and less responsibility. But I'd also have less control, and like some of my friends, I'd always worry that my option wouldn't be picked up and I'd have to scramble. Being an author today can really suck from a commercial POV. You're never really secure. Your success inevitably depends upon what the public thinks of your work. I have a new book being released. It's like starting all over again. I know it's good. But it's an uphill battle with so much product in the market. Fantasy is hard enough as a genre to garner respect from the literati, and when PW and Locus won't review my titles because my publisher doesn't know anyone there or send out my review copies 6 months before publication date, my chances are slimmer. But I plug away and I've been building a strong and loyal readership despite the obstacles.

Just don't cut off your nose to spite your face. As I said, figure out what you want, what you need, and then weigh your options. Don't close any doors prematurely. There may not be any others that open for you, or the ones that do may not be what you hope them to be.

[Lauri B]

Good luck, Gary. I hope you have great success. And this isn't meant as yet another dig, I promise, but just as an FYI--Publishers Weekly doesn't require you to "know" anyone in order to get reviewed. Our books are reviewed in there, and other trade and consumer publications, regularly. Windstorm's books won't be reviewed in PW because they don't have any distribution in place, which is a requirement for PW. PW also requires that manuscripts (even unbound manuscripts) be submitted to them at least 2 months before publication. It's not that hard to do.

[victoriastrauss]

I will concede that their return policies seem to be legitimate, so they might have more potential than PA.According to their introductory package (http://www.windstormcreative.com/global/downloads/introduction.pdf) (see page 22), they provide "60 days to pay or return." This is far from standard, and isn't likely to be a whole lot more attractive to booksellers than no returns policy at all (it's not uncommon for small publishers that boast of a returns program to offer one that's so restrictive that it's of little benefit). From the author's perspective, it's undesirable because it encourages booksellers to yank books off the shelves within two months.

Windstorm does not appear to work with a distributor. Of the six "distribution channels" listed (also on page 22), two are general wholesalers (Ingram, Baker & Taylor) One (Brodart) is a wholesaler specializing in libraries. One (Midwest Library Services) is also a library supplier that seems to specialize in academic books. One (Nielsen Book Data) isn't a wholesaler or a distributor for print books at all, as far as I know (Nomad?) One (Book House) I'm not familiar with. Unless Windstorm maintains its own sales staff (and the staff bio pages (http://www.windstormcreative.com/global/staff.htm) don't list a sales manager or anyone with an equivalent title), this doesn't look to me like the distribution lineup of a publisher that's dedicated to establishing bookstore presence.

One area in which I believe they may have more success is with their Lavender Line of lesbian books, which can be niche marketed (GLBT books was one of the specialties of Pride & Imprints, Windstorm's predecessor).

- Victoria

[Gary Wassner]

Thanks Nomad. I didn't mean that as a dig about PW. But I am involved in discussions on various forums with some of their reviewers. My point was that they have no direct relationships with anyone in the fantasy genre market, and so it's less likely that their titles would be noticed. There's generally quite a bit of awareness in the market with regard to new titles coming out from major imprints or genre savvy imprints. Windstorm, as we all agree, is neither.

Victoria, now you're confusing me completely. What is Ingram? Not a distributor? I know that Barnes and Noble required a distributor for example, and Borders too. And they were satisfied with Ingram. What's the difference between the two? Who distributes for Nightshade and Wildside? What about Wheatland Press? Their titles get reviewed by PW and they are all small presses.

As far as the 60 days is concerned, maybe you can clear this up for me too. I was under the impression that major chains require 60 days to pay or return. Is that incorrect? I was in B & N the other day and I was looking for a new title by Scott Lynch published by Spectra. They told me that all the hardcovers were returned to the publisher and that I'd have to wait for the mmpb coming out in June. I asked why and they told me that after 60 days they return the unsold copies. This isn't the rule if the titles aren't selling as hoped?

[LloydBrown]

According to their introductory package (http://www.windstormcreative.com/global/downloads/introduction.pdf) (see page 22), they provide "60 days to pay or return." This is far from standard, and isn't likely to be a whole lot more attractive to booksellers than no returns policy at all Thanks for filling in the gaps in my expertise, there.

[LloydBrown]

Don't think for a minute that a large press will be your ticket to the stars.

Nobody has ever claimed that publishing with a legitimate publisher is a guarantee of wealth. It's a question of judging what's likely and what's possible.

With one of the largest publishers, even a financial failure is likely to sell 5,000 to 10,000 copies. You could sell millions.

With a mid-sized publisher, you're likely to sell at least 2k to 3k, and you still have the potential for unlimited success. Runaway best-sellers do come from these publishers from time to time.

With a legitimate small publisher, a failure might not sell many copies at all (a couple of hundred), but your average number sold is higher than with self-publishing. You still have the potential to sell thousands of copies. Often, you hope to sell enough to leverage the publishing credit for a better contract for your next book.

With a bad publisher, you might very well sell zero to a dozen copies. Worse, in my mind, is that their non-standard business practices cap your possibility for success. Windstorm won't sell 100,000 copies of anything; they don't have the infrastructure.

One thing that's important is finding a threshold that allows you to sustain your writing. You might earn enough to quit a second job or hire a babysitter to allow you more Butt In Chair time. Maybe your other half almost pays the bills with his/her salary, and your income only has to to make up the difference. If your writing *costs* you time and money because you're expected to buy your own books and spend your own time on promotion, then finding or making that time to write becomes that much more difficult.

[Gary Wassner]

Here, Ingram is listed as a distributor:

http://www.bookmarket.com/distributors.html

I agree with your last paragraph completely, which is why I said that each author needs to evaluate what they want and need.

[victoriastrauss]

Victoria, now you're confusing me completely. What is Ingram? Not a distributor? I know that Barnes and Noble required a distributor for example, and Borders too. And they were satisfied with Ingram. What's the difference between the two? Who distributes for Nightshade and Wildside? What about Wheatland Press? Their titles get reviewed by PW and they are all small presses. A wholesaler provides warehousing, order fulfillment, invoicing, returns processing, and the like. A distributor provides all that--plus a staff of commissioned sales reps who sell books into stores. If a publisher really wants bookstore presence, it needs those sales reps--otherwise, the stores are unlikely to be aware that the publisher or its books exist. (Professional reviews are equally important in bringing books to the attention of booksellers and librarians.)

A number of well-regarded small genre presses, such as Nightshade and Wildside, use Ingram and B&T and don't have relationships with distributors, or have limited relationships (for instance, I believe that some of Wildside's books are distributed through Diamond, which is primarily a comics distributor). I would imagine that their sales are small, compared to large commercial houses (in the hundreds, rather than the thousands). However, they do a lot to take up the slack--attending cons, sending out ARCs for review in advance of publication (this is the ONLY way you can get into the professional venues like PW), establishing relationships with specialty bookstores, and reaching out to the genre community. Some have achieved quite a bit of critical success--both Wheatland and Prime have books on the WFA shortlist this year.

Speaking of WFA, I was one of the judges this year. We saw books from all the big boys--Tor, Ace, etc.--but also a LOT of books from small presses, including many I'd never heard of, some so small they only had a couple of books on their lists. We didn't get any books from Windstorm. This is one more sign of what I've mentioned before, their apparent disconnection from the SF/fantasy community--very odd in an independent publisher that has a sizeable SF/fantasy line. Participating in the community has made a big difference for indies such as Wheatland and Earthling and PS Publishing.
As far as the 60 days is concerned, maybe you can clear this up for me too. I was under the impression that major chains require 60 days to pay or return. Is that incorrect? I was in B & N the other day and I was looking for a new title by Scott Lynch published by Spectra. They told me that all the hardcovers were returned to the publisher and that I'd have to wait for the mmpb coming out in June. I asked why and they told me that after 60 days they return the unsold copies. This isn't the rule if the titles aren't selling as hoped?This may be the rule internally for B&N for titles that aren't selling briskly--but publishers give retailers up to a year to return unsold stock. For instance, HarperCollins Canada's returns policy (http://www.harpercollins.ca/Bookseller_Policies.asp) (note that it doesn't let booksellers return anything sooner than 3 months from the invoice date). Or indie publisher MacAdam/Cage (http://www.macadamcage.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=contact_us).

- Victoria

[victoriastrauss]

Here, Ingram is listed as a distributor:

http://www.bookmarket.com/distributors.htmlThat's Ingram Publisher Services. It's a division of Ingram Book Group (the wholesaler) that provides distribution services.

- Victoria

[Gary Wassner]

So it's not the rule that a publisher must have a distributor other than Ingram in order to get reviewed by PW?

Yes, Nightshade and Wildside have strong genre connections and they attend all the conventions. I wish Windstorm did, but as far as I can tell, they only go to local cons in and around their home state. They seem to be active in that community.

I know they submit my books in advance for review. Unfortunately, they don't have the best of reputations in the industry for whatever reasons (these types of discussions don't help them) and their author's suffer as a result. I've also spoken to them a number of times about advertising my titles, which they tell me they do.

What I don't understand, and maybe someone can clue me in, is what they stand to gain by not doing everything they can to move their product? The authors don't pay them anything. Windstorm pays for production, review copies, cover art and whatever fees Ingram charges them. I also receive 10 free copies of each title when they are first published. How do they remain open if they don't sell books? I don't buy books for resale from them. I don't peddle my books to stores. I have three titles in print with them and I own about a total of 9 of my books, 3 in my office, and six I keep at home. I send out gifts once in a while and I may order another book or two over the course of the year.

My sales are not enormous, but they are well into the 1000's, Lloyd. I get my quarterly royalty reports like clockwork. I'm not happy with the sales, but I'm not devastated. I'm really hoping that my fourth book will push all those numbers much higher. There's already some good buzz coming from some important genre voices. But regardless, Windstorm must be making money on my series.

If I could get PW or Locus to review me, it would be tremendous. It seems that they should consider the book and the author above the publisher. I'm a good guy! I work hard and write interesting, intelligent fantasy. In most industries, critics and reviewers look at the art independent of the means of production - Indie music, fashion, painting. In the publishing world, it's the middle man, the publisher, who determines the fate of the artist. It's not really very fair, nor is it the best means of assessing value and talent, IMHO.

[LloydBrown]

What I don't understand, and maybe someone can clue me in, is what they stand to gain by not doing everything they can to move their product?

Less risk. The less they spend, the less they have to lose. Selling to readers requires money and talent; selling to authors merely requires an account with a printer.

The authors don't pay them anything. Windstorm pays for production, review copies, cover art and whatever fees Ingram charges them. All that's true at Publish America, too.

I don't buy books for resale from them. I don't peddle my books to stores. You might not be typical. I know of other authors who have bought their books for resale. That's nearly all that sold for those titles.

My sales are not enormous, but they are well into the 1000's, I noticed, and you have my sincere congratulations. I think you'd be better off with a better publisher, though.

For one thing--and don't take this the wrong way--you could use a real editor. I'd like to think that the errors in the excerpt on your website are from transcription mistakes, but if that's a cut & paste from the work as published, it could use a pass from a professional. You might call it "maintaining creative control". I call it "giving up sales."

For another, going with a publisher who paid royalties on cover instead of net would increase your income. You said they're honest with you, but they lied when they said that their 15% net rate was "one of the highest in the industry."

If I could get PW or Locus to review me, it would be tremendous. Many publishers do that routinely. Windstorm apparently isn't one of them--yet another reason why I don't see them as a good choice for you and I don't see how they can be a good choice for anyone.

[Gary Wassner]

I am in complete agreement with the comment on editing. It kills me to have errors in my text. My fourth book will be error free. I had an incredible editor for this one. And this time too, we had the time to work on much more than merely the copy-editing. The fourth book is stronger, tighter, more focused, less dreamy, less wordy. It's a departure of sorts, but a positive one in many respects.

As I said before, it's almost impossible to switch horses in mid-stream. No publisher will take on a series already into its fourth book, unless the sales have been so strong that they just must have it. I was approached by a few very good genre publishers last year, but in the end, they all passed, based either on the issue I just mentioned (which I'd prefer to believe) or that they just didn't like the books enough.

I also have to admit that though I love the people and the titles at Nightshade, after meeting and having dinner together, and after repeated emails and requests for status on my submission and their thoughts about taking my series on, I never heard back from them either way. It's been a year now. I was surprised and disappointed at their lack of response. I had serious discussions with another very good fantasy publisher whose presence at the conventions is always guaranteed, but in the end, they told me that though they loved the books, taking the series on at the fourth was just not practical for them.

So you see, I'm glad for Windstorm. And despite all the drawbacks, they are there for me and they've been there for me in whatever capacity they are capable of. Obviously, I'd like them to do more, to push more, to advertise and to promote, to go to the conventions and show their titles. But I have to take what I can get, and I can't get that now. If they were smart, they invest some dollars in promoting me. Look what the books are doing with almost no advance promotion and little if any pushing by them. I wish they read my reviews and took a greater chance with my titles, but it may not be possible financially for them. And I have to accept that. I do trust that they have my best interests at heart, even if they can't fulfill all my dreams.

[William]

When a publisher overemphasizes a mission of "supporting authors' goals" or "publishing new authors," and their website seems aimed at the author seeking publication rather than the reading public, it's reasonable to assume that the publisher's target market is not the reading public but the author. This observation isn't personal to Windstorm. It's a general marketing fact. Windstorm is only one example of it.

When I shop a manuscript around, I intend the publisher to be my customer, not vice versa.

Exceptionally well put! :)

William

[William]

Just don't cut off your nose to spite your face. As I said, figure out what you want, what you need, and then weigh your options. Don't close any doors prematurely. There may not be any others that open for you, or the ones that do may not be what you hope them to be.

Gary,

I had some opportunities to spend some time with Jennifer and Cris DiMarco (much more with Jennifer).. On a personal level, I find them to be wonderful people. You point out that they are not part of an 'Axis of Evil', and I could not agree with you more. Of the people that I have met in 14 years in business, they are certainly two of the good people.

Your point about the importance that an author match their individual goals and interests and priorities with the 'right publisher *for them*' is spot on! There are now sufficient differences between publishers that authors do have some choice in what kind of publisher they want to work with. Windstorm (and other small presses) is *certainly* not right for everyone, but it is right for some.

William

[astonwest]

Went on a (random) fact-finding mission at some local bookstores today, and noticed a book on the local shelf from "Blue Works." Did some searching online, and came across Windstorm Creative through that search. The site was interesting, but based on my past with PA, there were some flags that popped up, and lit off the alarms in my head.

Thank goodness for AW and P&E, which verified my suspicions...didn't need to step right back into the same situation I successfully got out of.

Now, off to polish up the query and synopsis to send off to some agents...

[wood pixie]

Some of the information on this thread regarding this publisher may not be up to date or accurate.

Windstorm Creative IS listed in Writer's Market. That is how I first found them.

Windstorm Creative DOES pay on GROSS receipts. That is how my contract with them reads and it is how their contract is posted on their website.

I had my contract reviewed by a lawyer first. I would do that with a contract from any publisher.

So far I am very happy with them.

My first two novels (due out later this year) are already listed at www.barnesandnoble.com and I've already had pre-orders ... and NO not just from family and friends.

[Chicken Warrior]

I too have heard good things about them recently, but not having direct experience I didn't want to comment.

However, their contract on their website does not suggest gross payments. What it essentially says is gross on net, I believe. Or, in their own words:

the Publisher shall pay the Author a royalty on gross
receipts of money received by the Publisher

I'm no lawyer, but this definitely doesn't sound like cover price. The only thing that irks me about windstorm is that they state this is an industry exception - in the positive sense - and that they pay their cover artists essentially as much as their writers. Still, I know people pub with them book after book without seeking alternatives. I also know some writers write full time for them with no other jobs, successfully. So they must be doing something right.

[Popeyesays]

Some of the information on this thread regarding this publisher may not be up to date or accurate.

Windstorm Creative IS listed in Writer's Market. That is how I first found them.

Windstorm Creative DOES pay on GROSS receipts. That is how my contract with them reads and it is how their contract is posted on their website.

I had my contract reviewed by a lawyer first. I would do that with a contract from any publisher.


So far I am very happy with them.

My first two novels (due out later this year) are already listed at www.barnesandnoble.com (http://www.barnesandnoble.com) and I've already had pre-orders ... and NO not just from family and friends.

Royalties on gross receipts means that if they sell your ten dollar book for six dollars to the bookstore they pay you your royalty on $6.00 and NOT on the ocver price of $10.00.

That is not the industry standard. The industry standard is on COVER Price.

You say you have other books out with them. Would you share your sales figures? In approximates, of course or give us the titles and ISBN's so we can look at sales of the books through Ingrams and Amazon sales rankings?

Regards,
Scott

[Popeyesays]

Gary,

I had some opportunities to spend some time with Jennifer and Cris DiMarco (much more with Jennifer).. On a personal level, I find them to be wonderful people. You point out that they are not part of an 'Axis of Evil', and I could not agree with you more. Of the people that I have met in 14 years in business, they are certainly two of the good people.

Your point about the importance that an author match their individual goals and interests and priorities with the 'right publisher *for them*' is spot on! There are now sufficient differences between publishers that authors do have some choice in what kind of publisher they want to work with. Windstorm (and other small presses) is *certainly* not right for everyone, but it is right for some.

William

To me a very large part of "satisfaction" could be answered by getting some sales figures for Windstorm books. I think what we all want is readership, and readership is measured by sales. Windstorm does not have a regular distribution system in place so some information on actual sales would be nice to help makes folks capable of wise decisions.

i think that it is "nice" to have "nice" people as one's publishers, but isn't it ultimately a business decision?

Regards,

Scott

[wood pixie]

Popeye,

All I was saying is that someone claimed that they paid on NET ... they don't. They pay on GROSS.

Someone also said they were NOT listed in Writers Market. They are.

Those were the only two points I was making.


Where is this industry standard listed or published for a comparison? Is there a list of publishers who are in compliance (or not) of this standard?

From what I've seen plenty of smaller presses (and even bigger presses) pay on gross receipts not cover. I believe this has been an ongoing issue with publishing in general.

As far as distribution goes, I'm quite happy with being listed on Barnes & Noble's online website.

I know they aren't the biggest and best out there. Obviously.
But they are NOT so horrible and they don't claim to be anything they are not.

[Popeyesays]

Popeye,

All I was saying is that someone claimed that they paid on NET ... they don't. They pay on GROSS.

Someone also said they were NOT listed in Writers Market. They are.

Those were the only two points I was making.


Where is this industry standard listed or published for a comparison? Is there a list of publishers who are in compliance (or not) of this standard?

From what I've seen plenty of smaller presses (and even bigger presses) pay on gross receipts not cover. I believe this has been an ongoing issue with publishing in general.

As far as distribution goes, I'm quite happy with being listed on Barnes & Noble's online website.

I know they aren't the biggest and best out there. Obviously.
But they are NOT so horrible and they don't claim to be anything they are not.

I'm with a small publisher that is just getting distriubtion into order. I also do some editing and slush reading for them as free lance work.

part of my negotiations with the publisher resulted in a substandard contract being made pretty standard. Part of that change was to put royalties on a 15% of COVER price. It's really better for the author and the publisher, no one is picking nits about what is "net" and what is not, or what is "gross receipts" and what is not.

There is also no chance for creative bookkeeping.

It's more straightforward and simple.

As to who DOES pay on cover, all the major houses, most of the medium sized establishments and more and more of the smaller publishers.

If an author wants to keep it simple, providing royalties on cover is what the publisher SHOULD offer.

Regards,
Scott

[wood pixie]

That's excellent Popeye!

You negotiated to improve a contract. You helped your publisher improve.

That's the kind of advice writers need. Don't be afraid to negotiate and improve your deal. It never hurts to ask ... the publisher just may agree to it. So don't automatically dismiss them without giving it a chance.

Thanks.

[Chicken Warrior]

Although they do ask authors not to submit if they don't agree with their contract...

[victoriastrauss]

All I was saying is that someone claimed that they paid on NET ... they don't. They pay on GROSS.

No, they don't. They pay on the publisher's receipts, which in the industry is defined as net (cover price less discounts and possibly other costs). Windstorm's use of the word "gross" is inappropriate and misleading in this context.

My opinion of Windstorm's contract hasn't changed.

I too would like to know more about Windstorm's sales figures.

- Victoria

[Chicken Warrior]

I think we've already settled the gross issue. ;)

After all, this thread is 9 pages long.

[wood pixie]

I am not overly concerned with making money. I don't need the money.

I care more about young people enjoying a fantasy adventure. And I am perfectly happy with my first three novels being listed on barnesandnoble.com and already having pre-orders in place.

The ranking for my first novel isn't half bad considering is isn't even due for release for another month.

Goodness! I never imagined I'd even be at this point three years ago. I had barely finished one novel then. Now I have six completed manuscripts.

[Popeyesays]

I am not overly concerned with making money. I don't need the money.

I care more about young people enjoying a fantasy adventure. And I am perfectly happy with my first three novels being listed on barnesandnoble.com and already having pre-orders in place.

The ranking for my first novel isn't half bad considering is isn't even due for release for another month.

Goodness! I never imagined I'd even be at this point three years ago. I had barely finished one novel then. Now I have six completed manuscripts.

A craftsman is worthy of his hire or he is no craftsman. The publisher is worthy of author or it is no publisher.

Sales=Readership. If one's sales are sparse, one's readership is sparse. My readership is sparse so far, I am working to improve that.

The money? Heck, I could use the money. I'd also like for my publisher to recognize that my efforts deserve recompense. There are two ways the publisher can do that: 1) Pay royalties on cover; 2) make every effort to distribute the book to gain a readership (and sales).

If the publoisher doesn't "need the money" then what the heck are they doing going into business in the first place?

Regards,
Scott

[Chicken Warrior]

Okay, I'm going to take the halfway ground again in saying that Windstorm Creative has obviously made a conscious decision to offer a different kind of publishing program. They publish a lot more stuff than most publishers of their size and often print their own products. In that respect, they are more like an indie chapbook house. This is a very challenging kind of outfit to run and I don't believe the people at the top are making piles of money by paying their authors on net. I have talked to authors with Windstorm who honestly do prefer working with them than more established houses, and what matters if not an author's preference? In the ideal world, yes, authors would be recognized as talented craftspeople and would be payed like talented craftspeople, but what it comes down to is the fact that sometimes you're going to make more off net than gross, and sometimes it's worth sacrificing your paycheck to work with people you really enjoy working with.

I'm not going to say I agree with Windstorm's policies, and I certainly dislike the way they make it out like they're a positive exception in the industry. But the arguments that good writers should only accept good pay or that publishers should only exist as businesses are, in my opinion, flawed. Both of them are creating opportunities for authors to get read and published.

Also, while it's true sales represent readership, this has nothing to do with royalties. We haven't seen sales statistics from Windstorm, but if authors are living off their paychecks (and I've heard from some who do) and are being payed on net, this probably means a greater readership than many companies that pay on gross.

Just my 2 cents.

[Popeyesays]

I posted this and it vanished . . . I also had a browser failure just after so who knows?

Royalty rates on net have to be about 2.5 times the rate on cover to break even. It's simple math.

"Also, while it's true sales represent readership, this has nothing to do with royalties. We haven't seen sales statistics from Windstorm, but if authors are living off their paychecks (and I've heard from some who do) and are being payed on net, this probably means a greater readership than many companies that pay on gross."

Why aren't those authors willing to give ballpark sales figures?

Regards,
Scott

[Chicken Warrior]

I didn't ask them. If you're living on your writing, you're making anywhere from 25-60,000 annual, I would guess (usually on the lower end). These are authors who have six or so books a year, so those don't represent particularly strong nor weak sales.

[wood pixie]

A craftsman is worthy of his hire or he is no craftsman. The publisher is worthy of author or it is no publisher.

Sales=Readership. If one's sales are sparse, one's readership is sparse. My readership is sparse so far, I am working to improve that.

The money? Heck, I could use the money. I'd also like for my publisher to recognize that my efforts deserve recompense. There are two ways the publisher can do that: 1) Pay royalties on cover; 2) make every effort to distribute the book to gain a readership (and sales).

If the publoisher doesn't "need the money" then what the heck are they doing going into business in the first place?

Regards,
Scott


We'll see how my readership turns out ... the first two aren't being released until next month. But the pre-sales on www.barnesandnoble.com look good.

I've also got orders from two public libraries and a middle school library.

I'm happy with them.

I know others who have used similar size presses and aren't half as happy with their publisher as I am with mine.

We each choose our own route to get our work out there ... and I like the route I chose.

I'm living happily ever after.
~ The End ~ :Sun:

[jkorzenko]

Am I missing something?

Wood Pixie -- why are you not advertising your book in your signature? You'd be amazed at what Google picks up.

[dewisant]

Another red flag/pet peeve of note: when it appears that a publisher fakes reviews on Amazon.com. Could be legit, hard to tell, but considering it's the person's only three reviews, it's certainly suspicious:

http://tinyurl.com/2txubl

[dewisant]

Oh, and sorry to double-post, but I probably should have pointed out what brought me to Google them and eventually find this thread: this ad placed in Foreword This Week:

http://www.paraworlds.com/foreword/

It should be noted that the address in the ad was wrong, so you got a 404 when you clicked on it (they spelled "foreword" wrong, ha). That fact does fine on its own without commentary....

Ditto with that cover....

[Mac H.]

That's a curious book. They are really pushing the fact that they are spending $150k on marketing.

I'm worried it is the AUTHOR'S money rather than the publisher's money ... especially when they used amateur cover-art for the book, with jagged bitmapped fonts (even in the hi-res version) and wrong perspective !

And I suspect the first sentence of the book could do with editing, too ...

(The opening sentence "The woman was dying, and no one on Earth who would mourn for her when she was gone." should read as "The woman was dying, and no one on Earth would mourn for her when she was gone." .

(Edited to add: The PDF has been corrected - but not the excerpts quoted elsewhere)

Mac

[IceCreamEmpress]

That's a curious book. They are really pushing the fact that they are spending $150k on marketing.

I'm worried it is the AUTHOR'S money rather than the publisher's money ...

Oh, it's clearly the author's money. And they're wasting it, too.

The idea that it's OK to skimp on editing and production values as long as you put a lot of money into advertising is quite...unusual, to say the least.

[Phoenix Fury]

That same ad just showed up in Poets and Writers too, and looked just as awful. How can they put out a cover like that with a straight face? How could any author (or reader) look at that and not burst out laughing?

You could do better with Adobe Photoshop Elements, an hour and a hundred bucks at Kinko's.

P.F.

[eqb]

Ah, I remember reading the author's posts about his book in the Critters newsgroup (last year? earlier?). He was delighted because Windstorm permitted him to provide his own cover art, and he was brainstorming for ways to market his book himself. How depressing that he's decided to sink that much money into ads.

And checking their site, I also see Windstorm is still trying to claim they don't pay on net.

[Khazarkhum]

As a veteran of the scifi con world, I can say with confidence that the combined attendance at TusCon & Coppercon will be less than 1000. TusCon is a tiny relaxacon in Tucson, one where you go to hang out & visit; Coppercon is bigger, but not huge--it rarely has over 1000 attendees.

Arizona con attendees are pretty savvy when it comes to books; they've had a good run of authors & artists as attendees & fans. They typically have the best art shows outside of the giant cons, like Worldcon (Comiccon doesn't have a good art show). There's a lot of art for sale at Comiccon, but precious little in the show.

The guy is marketing the hell out of the book, but as we all know, the most aggressive ad campaign in the world won't help if the product is poor.

[Dai Alanye]

Can someone help me out?
I've tried to contact the fella who wrote the initial blurb for ParaWorld Zero ("Cory Farley" Lawyer - Phoenix, AZ) but using two search engines can't seem to find him, turning up only references connected to ParaWorld.

Oh, in another spot he's listed as being from Peoria, Az. …Dang! Can't locate him there, either. Should I try Illinois?

Here's another blurber, Susan M. Grossman, Editor in Seattle, WA. Four searches failed me this time, referencing only ParaWorld. Obviously I'm doing something wrong. Can anyone suggest a search engine that might locate these people? So far I've only tried Ask Jeeves, Google, MS and Dogpile. Sheesh!

[victoriastrauss]

I don't think AW is the right place to ask this question. Why not contact the author of the book?

- Victoria

[Phoenix Fury]

I don't think AW is the right place to ask this question. Why not contact the author of the book?

- Victoria

I might be wrong, but I think he's joking.

P.F.

[Mac H.]

I've tried to contact the fella who wrote the initial blurb for ParaWorld Zero ("Cory Farley" Lawyer - Phoenix, AZ) but using two search engines can't seem to find him, turning up only references connected to ParaWorld. ...

Here's another blurber, Susan M. Grossman, Editor in Seattle, WA. Four searches failed me this time, referencing only ParaWorld. Obviously I'm doing something wrong.
I'm a little worried how this thread is going.

It is 99.9% likely that the blurbs are real ... the book may be quite good, even if it could have done with a bit more work.

Why try and contact people who LIKED the book? To imply that their qualifications or taste aren't good? To tell him that the book has a poor marketing strategy? If it is concern over the ROI of an author spending $150k when the publisher only expects to sell a few thousand copies ... I'm sure contacting the author would be better.

I'm sure plenty of people would find the book quite a good read. When I look back at many of the books and stories I've enjoyed over the years, it is quite astounding what style flaws I was willing to overlook for the sake of a good story!

And, to put it bluntly, you seem to be pretty bad at using search engines.

[individuals' information redacted]

But please don't contact them, unless it is to congratulate them.

So they liked a book that has a poor marketing plan that you probably haven't even read?
Even if the worst case scenario is true, and the book they liked is unreadable to many people ... it certainly isn't a crime to have a high opinion of it.

I'm reasonably intelligent and well read, but one book that I thought was unreadable dreck was a Booker Finalist, won a Whitbread Award and was written by an author who was knighted for 'Services to Literature'.

What would be the point in contacting those who gave the book a good blurb?

Mac

[IceCreamEmpress]

Yes, I'm with Mac H. on this. Those seem like legit blurbs, because I Googled them too and found enough to convince me.

Now, the question of whether "blurbs from a random assortment of people" is a compelling marketing strategy or not is an open one. But, Dai Alanye, those don't seem to be fake blurbs, if that's what you were implying.

[James D. Macdonald]

What worries me about Windstorm and this novel is this:

From Amazon's page:

Availability: Usually ships within 1 to 3 months. Ships from and sold by Amazon.com. Gift-wrap available.

All the marketing in the world in January won't help if the readers can't get copies before February or March.

Perhaps this is just a burp in the Amazon database. But it does worry me.

[brianm]

What worries me about Windstorm and this novel is this:

From Amazon's page:



All the marketing in the world in January won't help if the readers can't get copies before February or March.

Perhaps this is just a burp in the Amazon database. But it does worry me.

I checked on Wood Pixie's three books earlier today. The two released in December, A Bridge in the Forest and A Promise in the Forest read the same way.

Amazon: Availability: Usually ships within 1 to 3 months

The third book is scheduled for release in March, 2008 and can be pre-ordered.

At Barnes & Noble, neither of the two books mentioned above are available. They both show out of stock. The third book can be pre-ordered.

[victoriastrauss]

I was perusing Windstorm's website, and something about halfway down this page (http://www.windstormcreative.com/tour/staff.htm) rang a bell. Anyone remember Areane_Creator (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=615448&postcount=80), real name Launa, the high school student and Windstorm author who appeared here a while back (on page 4 of this thread actually) to mount a confused defense of the publisher? She is now Windstorm's Associate Publisher.

- Victoria

[Dai Alanye]

My searches used the names and occupations as given on the ParaWorld.com site. I made them initially because I found it odd that Farley would describe himself as a "lawyer" rather than as an attorney (but maybe that's Peterson's description) and because they were adults blurbing for a book written on the level of younger teens. There is, though, at least one blurb from a nine-year-old, and the authors who are claimed to be quoted actually do exist.

But the topic is publisher Windstorm Creative, and If I can't catch them for faking blurbs, I'll move on. The main questions are, would they budget $150,000 for a rather ordinary book? Would they give away thousands of audiobooks? Would they, given the promotion budget, allow a cover such as that to go out the door? Have they actually got the book on the shelves of seven notable wholesalers/distributors? Has Cris DiMarco sold more than 60,000 copies of one book?

ParaWorld Zero, BTW, has an Amazon ranking of ~211,700 at this point. Has that $150,000 promotion paid off yet, you think?

You report, I'll decide.

[Mac H.]

But the topic is publisher Windstorm Creative, and If I can't catch them for faking blurbs, I'll move on. The main questions are, would they budget $150,000 for a rather ordinary book? The problem is that slinging wrong accusations at Windstorm Creative simply makes it appear that their critics are people who are wrong.

I appreciate that there is some reason you have a problem with them. That isn't surprising - they seem to have plenty of issues. But attack them for THOSE issues, instead of looking for more.

As far as I know, it has never been claimed that Windstorm Creative has budgeted that much for the book. The official statements that Windstorm has made is that:

1. They have done a print run of 10,000 .. which indicates how many they expect to sell in the coming year.

2. There is a marketing budget of that much .. but don't say that it is THEIR money. Instead, it is the author who is budgeting to promote his own book. It is tragic and sad.

"Would they give away thousands of audio-books?"
Why not? An audio book could simply be an MP3 or WAV file .. so it can have zero manufacturing costs. (And zero production costs since the author seems to have created it on his own penny)

Good luck,

Mac

[LloydBrown]

I do not believe the figure at all. I have a PM in my folder here (or in my e-mail, I don't remember which) from a Windstorm author who discovered that they lied about their promotional dollars. I have this information in confidence, so I won't mention a name. The claim was in the thousands, and the amount spend seemed to have been zero. Fewer than a dozen books sold.

[Khazarkhum]

Can someone help me out?
I've tried to contact the fella who wrote the initial blurb for ParaWorld Zero ("Cory Farley" Lawyer - Phoenix, AZ) but using two search engines can't seem to find him, turning up only references connected to ParaWorld.

Oh, in another spot he's listed as being from Peoria, Az. …Dang! Can't locate him there, either. Should I try Illinois?

Here's another blurber, Susan M. Grossman, Editor in Seattle, WA. Four searches failed me this time, referencing only ParaWorld. Obviously I'm doing something wrong. Can anyone suggest a search engine that might locate these people? So far I've only tried Ask Jeeves, Google, MS and Dogpile. Sheesh!

Peoria is a suburb of Phoenix.

[victoriastrauss]

2. There is a marketing budget of that much .. but don't say that it is THEIR money. Instead, it is the author who is budgeting to promote his own book. It is tragic and sad.
I would suspect that the author also solicited the blurbs (at least a couple of which are from established writers). This is not so unusual; good publishers will send mss. out for blurbing, but nothing prevents the author from doing so as well (I've done it myself).
But the topic is publisher Windstorm Creative, and If I can't catch them for faking blurbs, I'll move on.
Dai, I have to ask--why are you trying to "catch" Windstorm for anything? Have you read through the previous messages in this thread, which provide ample material for anyone who is skeptical of this publisher?

In our skepticism about Windstorm, I'd appreciate it if we could try to avoid running down the author--who already has enough to cope with.

- Victoria

[Dai Alanye]

Dai, I have to ask--why are you trying to "catch" Windstorm for anything? Have you read through the previous messages in this thread, which provide ample material for anyone who is skeptical of this publisher?

In our skepticism about Windstorm, I'd appreciate it if we could try to avoid running down the author--who already has enough to cope with.

You have a legitimate point, Victoria, and I've possibly over-reacted. My ire has been raised by what appears to me to be an effort to stampede bookstore owners—brick and electronic—to stock large numbers of a book that probably has limited potential. This strikes me as unethical. What do others think of this specific aspect of the matter?

I have, BTW, an ethical problem of my own. I've been offered an overly-generous blurb by a minor but significant authorial figure. I know my work doesn't fully deserve the praise, couched though it is in somewhat tentative language. Do I take advantage of it for commercial reasons? My thought at present is to compromise—to offer it to my publisher but not use it on my own site. But by this I'm merely casting the ethical conundrum onto someone else's conscience, of course.

So, what do you think—will I irreparably soil my angel wings if I do this? What would you do?

[Matthew Peterson]

Hi guys. I have some major deadlines to meet today but I stumbled upon these messages. Too bad you didn't see my Amazon and bn.com stats earlier this week. It was ranked #9 for "Magic and Wizards" on Amazon and #540 overall on BN.com (not too bad for the first couple days). There are some glitches that my publisher is trying to solve with the bookstores.

For the record, the people who gave those initial blurbs (like 2-3 years ago) were mostly fellow authors from critters and critiquecircle (I got them all before I got my publisher). They emailed me their comments and I asked them if I could post them on my site. The 3 main author blurbs on the back of the book were obtained by me many months before the book was even published. In fact, I think Douglas Hill gave me the quote before I even had a publisher (he's dead now, so good luck contacting him). I'm surpised you didn't scroll down on the page and read all of the recent reviews it's been getting (I just added two more to the site). At least 6 other sites have emailed me to tell me that they're going to review my book soon. http://paraworlds.com

"...I greatly enjoyed the story... a must read for anyone who loves fantasy and for anyone who loves a good adventure/coming-of-age novel."
– Flamingnet TOP CHOICE Award

"This book follows the Harry Potter template of wizards and magic, the discovery of great wizardly power, and likely a secret destiny to be fulfilled. It combines Star Wars aspects as well, as we see space ships, laser guns, and a group that wishes to bend the ‘paraverse’ to their worldview. These are definitely all elements that a young adult would find very exciting, along with the camaraderie among Simon and the new friends [he] makes, some teenage crushes, and some funny scenes within the story. It’s a [fast]-paced story with lots of action and character interaction among the kids. Tonya has hair that changes color with her moods, which is an element that I think can really draw in a child reader’s imagination. It has plenty to offer to make it an exciting page-turner for its young adult audience..."
– FantasyBookSpot.com

"Its rollicking adventure style reminds this reader of a cross between Harry Potter's adventures and those of Artemis Fowl. Colorful characters, fast-paced adventure, and clever humor make this an interesting read."
– TeensReadToo.com (ReadingJunky)

"Fantasy lovers will devour Paraworld Zero... Matthew Peterson uses descriptive writing and likable characters to capture your attention. I was completely intrigued on the first chapter! The world he creates is incredibly unique and captivating."
– ThePageFlipper.blogspot.com

"Enticing and very entertaining... We'll be eagerly looking forward to the next in this funny, unique, and imaginative series."
– TheCompulsiveReader.blogspot.com

"Peterson deftly blends elements of fantasy and science fiction in this action packed romp."
– The Faerie Drink Review & Poised at the Edge

"ParaWorld Zero is one of those rare young adult novels that all ages will enjoy ... funny, fast paced, and enough twist and turns to keep you reading all the way to the end. Don't miss this one!"
– SpecFicWorld.com

"The characters are lively and the storyline is fast paced and exciting to read. It's got everything a kid would enjoy reading so you guys should definitely pick this book up..."
– TheBookBinge.blogspot.com

Final note: That error on the first line of the book was corrected ages ago (the physical book doesn't have that error), but I must have missed it on my website. Windstorm has no control over my website. Thanks for pointing it out to me. I'm a dunce sometimes. Also for the record, Windstorm never asked me for any money whatsoever. I've read from several award-winning authors that a first-time author should spend all of their advance towards marketing. Even the big publishers do little for first-time authors. I have done a lot of promotions (most of which were free) and so has Windstorm. It's a team effort... but they have never never never asked me for a single red cent. Finally... art is subjective of course, but I assure you that the text on the physical cover looks great. Have a wonderful year guys. Now I only have 1 hour left to meet my deadline. Arrg.

[Matthew Peterson]

I just found that ad in Foreword that someone was talking about earlier. I actually hadn't seen the newsletter, or else I would have clicked on the ads to see if they worked.

If you click the image, it goes to the misspelled url. However, the URL in the ad text itself is spelled correctly. Lots of people have been clicking on the link, but I just checked my logs and a few people did click on the image. So I just created a misspelled page on my site to accommodate both. That's frustrating. Thanks for pointing that out.

http://www.forewordmagazine.net/connections/admin/ftwmailer/ForeWordThisWeek20080102.htm

[James D. Macdonald]

I've read from several award-winning authors that a first-time author should spend all of their advance towards marketing.

That is absolutely terrible advice. I strongly recommend that a first-time author spend the advance on groceries.

[IceCreamEmpress]

That is absolutely terrible advice. I strongly recommend that a first-time author spend the advance on groceries.

I bought a couch with my last advance! I'm sitting on it right now, too.

[eqb]

I bought a couch with my last advance! I'm sitting on it right now, too.

Groceries, new bookcases for the office, a trip to Paris...

[escritora]

i used my advance towards the down payment for my house.