Thoughts on present tense?

That's the silliest guideline I've ever heard of.

I think the only universally disliked POV/tense is 2nd person future.

There are many, many great stories written in 1st person, present. It's really just a preference thing that some people don't like present. Some people don't like 1st person. Some love it.

Any writer/reader/editor worth his salt will always read the manuscript first before passing any judgment based solely on the POV or tense.

Third or first person past tense is the standard for conventional novels and stories. Presumed Innocent is one exception that proves the rule here. Sophie Kinsella's Shopaholic novels are also written in present tense, if I'm remembering right.

In my reading and marketing experience, the more literary/experimental-friendly the fiction market, the less mere present tense would be an issue.

As for the particular guideline you quote, hey, the editor of a mag has a right to be prejudiced against anything he or she has a hankering to be prejudiced against. That's why it's best to actually read a magazine before submitting, so you can ferret any unstated prejudices out.

I think the only reason 3rd person and past became "standards" is because it's harder to make mistakes. That's not to say they're easier to write. There's a big difference.

But when you're first starting out and are tempted to write, the mistake of "I run.... I am.... I talked to...." is a lot more annoying than "He ran.... he was.... he talked to...." in general.

There's nothing "standard" about 3rd person or past tense. It's just how things evolved. Much like the missing matter-antimatter symmetry in the universe. There's no real reason that we don't have an equality of matter and antimatter, and no particular reason regular matter should have evolved to be the dominant form today. Similarly, first person and present tense are really no different than 3rd person or past tense when it comes to authenticity in the quality of the writing.

Such an idea is pretty silly, I think. I don't understand why people can't stand one or the other. Great writing of each will always be just as great.

kuwisdelu said:

There's nothing "standard" about 3rd person or past tense.

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What is most common and most widely accepted is "standard." "Standard" is a relative term carrying no moral judgment or inevitability.

However, you ignore standards at your own risk. At Paradox Mag, the editor's personal standard is "Stories told in the present verb tense already have one strike against them and will very rarely be accepted for publication."

Hey, if you want to defy that standard, send Paradox a present tense story. Better be pretty impressive, though, or you'll just be jerking the editor's chain.

I'd look for an editor without that prejudice, 'cause I don't have any interest in dying on the "past or present" hill.

kuwisdela, a lot of people hate present tense. some of those are editors who will reject your story, some of those will be readers who will put your book down the minute they see it's present tense. That's just the way it is. So write what you want but be aware that making certain choices will automatically doom the story from the beginning.

I'd probably avoid any pub that had guidelines based on tense. It just seems so narrow and arbitrary.

I don't think there is (nor should there be) a standard tense for short fiction or novels. Water for Elephants, for example, was beautifully written in first-person present.

Heh, it's the Idealists versus the Practical! Always a good game.

Just start from the right end. Worry about the story, then the market. If the story is better in present tense (and it's literary or experimental), I don't think you'll have a big problem. With popular genres, I do think you'll meet more resistance to the present tense. Whether you want to fight it out or not is up to you.

As for avoiding a mag because its editor doesn't like present tense, I'd only avoid it if I wrote in the present tense. I stand for the right of editors to be arbitrary! (Hey, editors, are you listening???)

No present tense, but, but...

c.e.lawson said:

It just came out that way.

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Good. Might be the best way to tell the story.

c.e.lawson said:

I need the immediacy of it...

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Well, that's debatable. Despite the story showing up as it did, if you want to sell to certain markets (eh ... like Paradox) you'll have to write what they buy. If it's stories about singing chimpanzees they want, told in one-sixteenth-person POV, that's what you give them. Note, however, that I don't disagree with your take on the effect that the tense has on the story. I think that sometimes it's the best possible choice. (Many, many writers and editors disagree. Vociferously. Others agree (albeit in whispering, secretive voices).)

c.e.lawson said:

Is present tense universally disliked?

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Nope.

c.e.lawson said:

Is it considered amateurish?

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Nu-uh. But many amateurs try it, and do it badly. Just like third person. Or first.

c.e.lawson said:

Is this simply a personal preference of this specific editor?

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Pretty much. But there are probably more who don't want present tense than not. At least judging by most of what's published. And one sure way to collect rejections is to send editors what they specifically say they don't want.

c.e.lawson said:

Summonere - I bring my soldier from waking up in the hospital, right up to the point of getting his leg amputated, where he loses consciousness from the chloroform. Past tense changes it so that he's looking back on everything (obviously), and it's so difficult to get the intensity of his emotions/reactions when looking back. And it changes the punch of the ending. My writing group is split fifty-fifty on which tense they prefer, so ack - I just can't decide!

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Well, here's a thought. In fact, I've seen this thought successfully employed in commercial fiction at least a time or two. Goes like this. Different time sequences are separated by tense. That is, in stories interweaving present narrative with the looming past, the present time sequences were all written in present tense, while all of the past sequences were written, who'd uh guessed, in past tense.

Seems Neil Stephenson did something like this in Cryptonomicon, but it's been so long since I've read the thing I can't remember. In any event, I know that others have done it. Probably are doing it right now, too.

Sounds like maybe what you're doing? If so, it can work. Even if not, it can still probably work. Everything depends upon the execution.

Phaeal said:

What is most common and most widely accepted is "standard." "Standard" is a relative term carrying no moral judgment or inevitability.

However, you ignore standards at your own risk. At Paradox Mag, the editor's personal standard is "Stories told in the present verb tense already have one strike against them and will very rarely be accepted for publication."

Hey, if you want to defy that standard, send Paradox a present tense story. Better be pretty impressive, though, or you'll just be jerking the editor's chain.

I'd look for an editor without that prejudice, 'cause I don't have any interest in dying on the "past or present" hill.

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Call it a "standard" or whatever you like. Among any non-bias writer or reader, it's just narrow-minded to judge a story based solely on something like what tense or what POV it's written in. Should we not like The Great Gatsby because it's written in first person? Is Infinite Jest automatically a bad work because it begins in first person, present? I suppose I should tell Chuck Palauhniuk that his books are nonstandard, so he should consider revising them.

Look, if you want to define "standard" as most common, go ahead. My dictionary defines it as "an idea or thing that is used as a measure, norm, or model in comparative evaluations." Unless you want to show me a "normal" book, then I don't see how anyone can call a particular POV or tense as "standard."

nevada said:

kuwisdela, a lot of people hate present tense. some of those are editors who will reject your story, some of those will be readers who will put your book down the minute they see it's present tense. That's just the way it is. So write what you want but be aware that making certain choices will automatically doom the story from the beginning.

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Yes, making certain choices probably will doom the story from the beginning. First person, present tense isn't one of them. Lots of well-known, respected writers would be a lot less known if that were the case.

You're certainly right that some decisions in writing will doom the story from the point of view of certain publishers and readers from the start, yes. But that's true for lots of things. Lots of people will put down a story once they realize it's fantasy. Lots of people will put down a story once they find out a character is gay. A Christian fiction publisher isn't going to publish your erotic vampire story. That's just how things are. Does that means it's a bad idea to write about those things? Of course not! Because some magazines and some readers don't like a certain tense does that mean it will never sell or have a market? No! Believe it or not, there are even some people who don't like third person, past tense.

It's stupid to be limited in what we write by a market we're not interested in. I'm not going to submit a true crime story to a hard sci-fi magazine, and I'm not going to submit a first person, present tense story to Paradox. You look elsewhere. That's all.

Or as JamieFord said:

JamieFord said:

I'd probably avoid any pub that had guidelines based on tense. It just seems so narrow and arbitrary.

I don't think there is (nor should there be) a standard tense for short fiction or novels. Water for Elephants, for example, was beautifully written in first-person present.

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Exactly.

To the OP: if you think it works for you, just ignore Paradox. Submit elsewhere. If this has brought it to your attention that it doesn't work, then rework it. That's all there is to it.

Since your story wanted to be told in 1st person right from the get-go, I wouldn't change it. Personally, I prefer to tell a story how it wants to be told. I know of an author that has done this. Her new series is in first person and it has taken a lot of her readers some getting used to. But... in the end her main character gave her no choice but to write from her POV only.

Were I in your shoes, I'd follow that gut instinct. Everything will fall into place. Good Luck!

I love your avatar, btw. 300 was a fantastic movie!

kuwisdelu said:

I suppose I should tell Chuck Palauhniuk that his books are nonstandard, so he should consider revising them.

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I think Chuck Palahniuk would be thrilled to hear his books were nonstandard, as would many other writers. In fact, I may just tell him so myself.

Phaeal said:

I think Chuck Palahniuk would be thrilled to hear his books were nonstandard, as would many other writers. In fact, I may just tell him so myself.

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I know. My subtle point. There's nothing wrong with nonstandard.

kuwisdelu said:

That's the silliest guideline I've ever heard of.

I think the only universally disliked POV/tense is 2nd person future.

There are many, many great stories written in 1st person, present. It's really just a preference thing that some people don't like present. Some people don't like 1st person. Some love it.

Any writer/reader/editor worth his salt will always read the manuscript first before passing any judgment based solely on the POV or tense.

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I would avoid this publication. It's very narrow-minded.


Many wonderful short stories are written in present tense, including big names such as John Updike, David Sedaris, Chuck Palahniuk.

My experience has been the opposite. There's a yen for present-tense short fiction over here - presumably to make it sound more "literary and important". I can't stand the present tense, but can't get published using any other time setting.

Susan Lanigan said:

My experience has been the opposite. There's a yen for present-tense short fiction over here - presumably to make it sound more "literary and important". I can't stand the present tense, but can't get published using any other time setting.

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In at least some literary mag venues, there is a distinct prejudice toward present-tense (and first-person POV as well). Certain editors absolutely prefer it, sometimes to the point of quick rejection of any other narrative paradigm.

caw

blacbird said:

In at least some literary mag venues, there is a distinct prejudice toward present-tense (and first-person POV as well). Certain editors absolutely prefer it, sometimes to the point of quick rejection of any other narrative paradigm.

caw

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Which, of course, is equally silly.

Paradox is an excellent publication. To rule it out just because the guidelines are somewhat limiting would be somewhat silly IMHO. Strange Horizons in their guidelines gives a list of cliches to avoid, and I've talked to many a writer who fumed over this list ("but mine is original!!!") Thing is, if it is truly original and striking, they will buy it; usually it is not.

Paradox does not say they will not consider a present-tense story. They will indeed consider it, and if it is outstanding they will buy it. The stuff they buy for the magazine is all outstanding, so if you are at that level you have nothing to worry about. So much about purchasing decisions boils down to "fit" and editorial taste that I think it is counterproductive to rile against this. Paradox and Strange Horizons do authors a service by saying outright what their preferences are. This is positive rather than negative.

Now, to the question of present vs past. This is just my 2c. I am a big fan of present tense, but I see it as a motivated choice. As far as I am concerned, there has to be a reason for present tense. In November, I workshopped a story in SYW which was written in 1st person present tense, and hordes of helpful critters told me to switch to past "because it is standard." I could not do this: the heroine loses her memory halfway into the story and she never recovers it; no way she can narrate the beginning in past tense! I listened to my gut. This was the first story I sold.

I have since written another story in present tense. The character is a native speaker of a language without tenses, and present tense seemed most appropriate to approximate what it feels to think in Maro. It is a less motivated choice than memory loss as far as I am concerned, and I am not set on it, but I think it works well.

The story I would have sent to Paradox was in 3rd person past tense. Unfortunately, Paradox reading period was closed and meanwhile the story sold to a different market. I think the request for "standard" past tense for Paradox comes with the perceived "historicity" of past narration versus the "experiential" nature of present tense.

Best of luck with your story.

Thanks for the heads up on Paradox, Gray Rose! It's on my markets list, so I'll move it up to the top and send them a story, in past tense. One hurdle down!

When I see guidelines like that, I just add it to my list of helpful information. "X editor isn't partial to present tense." It helps me target my market, but I don't think any harder on it than that.

Personally, I like present tense and have sold stories in both present and past tense. I simply choose whichever one I want for the story I'm writing.

Per Orson Scott Card, in 'Characters and Viewpoint', he says that most readers prefer and expect past tense. If writing in present tense, there has to be some reason, some *justification* for why the author put the reader through the extra work of reading something in present tense. If it's just to "be different", that's not good enough. Present tense is a barrier, something to overcome, something that distances the reader from the story.

He says that more often than not, your story will be best served by using past tense, because readers don't notice it. It reads to the reader as happening "now", while present reads as strange and in the past.

He has quite a lot to say about tense, all of it quite logical and backed by quite a lot of literary history, with the bottom line being that you should always choose the simplest, clearest, least noticable technique that will still accomplish what the story requires.

Great book, btw, one of the few "how to" books I go back to again and again, particularly the chapter on POVs and tenses.

I agree completely about how good a book Characters and Viewpoint is. I'm rereading it now, and I just found a passage I'll be sharing with the Roundtable forum before long.

Past tense narration does read as present action for the most part. It may be that a story in the past tense gives the reader a subconscious reassurance: I, the writer, have been over this road before, I know where we're going, I won't let us fall into potholes or get really lost. However, the road is still new to you, the reader, and so you will experience the story right along with the characters. Isn't that great?

Actually, my favorite uses for the present tense are not to add immediacy to a story, but to add distance, a touch of alienation. I use present tense for flashbacks in a past tense story. I also use it for dreams or odd psychic displacements, like clairvoyance or astral projection.

Right now I'm working on a section of a WIP in which the MC has a mental connection with a familiar. Things he sees through his own eyes, I give in past tense, things he sees through the familiar's eyes are in present tense. Sometimes I switch between past and present a couple times in the same paragraph.

I'm not sure if this technique is going to work. It's proving pretty tricky, and possibly annoying to the reader.