The mythical hero versus the flawed hero .....

Overkill · Apr 5, 2008

Lately this issue has kept popping up for me and i wanted to make a post and get some other opinions as to what you guys think.

The flawed hero versus the mythical hero. I was always a sucker for the flawed hero. The gumshoe with an alcohol problem or the cop with a wife and family to support. Whatever the case may be there always seemed to be room for the hero with flaws. The flaws made them more real for the reader, created the kind of character that the every day person and reader could identify with. These were real heroes with real problems. They didn't always have the right answer. They got hurt, shot, cut, robbed or whatever. Their plight and journey through the tough times was what endeared these characters to us, the reader. I always enjoyed these heroes for those very same reasons.

Then i read a Jack Reacher novel. For anyone who might never have heard of him, Jack Reacher is a series written by Lee Child. Jack Reacher is the personification of the mythical, larger than life hero. He is an ex MP who travels the country without a stable home. He is tough, extremely smart, always gets the girl and has a sense of morality and of right and wrong that make him the perfect hero in many ways. I fell immediately in love with the series and character and that prompted me to ask: do you guys think there is more room in the marketplace for this kind of larger than life hero?

My character Gavin Preacher falls into the flawed category but i wonder what you guys might think about the subject.

JoNightshade · Apr 5, 2008

I think it's easier to identify with a flawed hero because we are, in fact, all flawed. That's just the nature of life.

But is there still room for a mythical, larger-than-life hero?

In my opinion, yes. I think the larger than life hero is HARDER to do well-- easy to fall into a pit of annoying perfection. I could name fifty excellent flawed heroes for every really well done flawless one.

But then I think of the flawless heroes I LOVE. Foremost in my mind is Beowulf. A few months back, before the movie came out, I read the Seamus Heany translation. Oh man, was I blown away. Beowulf is like the personification of "ego." He knows he's great and he's not afraid to brag! But the fact that he IS awesome seems to make all the bragging acceptable, even enjoyable... because even bragging is something he does well!

Or take Jack Sparrow-- the epitome of awesomeness.

I love the character, but honestly aside from being a little nuts he doesn't really have any flaws. He's just there to be cool.

Then there are tons of John Wayne movies where he's basically just the good guy, fighting the badguy. (Although there are others where his character has depth, too.) Sometimes it's refreshing just to have a straight-out good-vs-bad conflict. It's fun to root for the right side.

Aggy B. · Apr 5, 2008

I think there is a place for both. It just depends on what one is in the mood for at the moment.

As far as mythical goes, in ancient mythology there are a decent number of heroes who would fall more into the "anti-hero" category. (Hercules, Jason and the Argonauts, that guy who stole fire from the gods.) Even then I think a balance between an ideal hero and a more realistic/pragmatic hero was popular.

I think what might be more appealing at times about the "anti-hero" type is the fact that their struggle is not just against outside forces (angry gods, mobsters, etc.) but also internal forces (alcoholism, lust, whatever). And even non-heroic types can identify with those internal forces and struggles a lot more easily than the external ones.

However, the ideal hero's story is frequently more entertaining because it is a bit "over the top."

Just my thoughts on the matter.

stc · Apr 7, 2008

My take is that usually, a hero has both a special gift or skill, and a vulnerability. The special gift or skill appeals to the aspirational aspect of the reader, and the vulnerability allows the reader to identify and empathize.

The relative ratio of skill/vulnerability, strength/weakness, can vary among heros. It can even vary within a hero, can change as the story progresses. This inner struggle between character polarities can provide dynamic internal drama.

Just offhand, take Achilles in The Iliad. An awesome warrior, but his weakness is anger, which affects his battlefield performance, weakens him, and thus weakens his army. He must struggle to overcome this and rejoin the battle.

And of course, there's Superman. In their teen wisdom, Superman's creators gave him a vulnerability to kryptonite.

Jack Reacher's an interesting case. I read an interview someplace [web] in which Lee Child says Reacher has "issues" that he might have to confront someday. Maybe Reacher's aversion to possessions and commitment is too extreme, unbalanced, even phobic, it makes him not only geographically unstable, but psychologically unstable. This might turn out to be his vulnerability.

[Btw, I love the Reacher novels, but do you think they're a little bloated with unnecessary scenes and description? In any case, I'm looking forward to Nothing To Lose, due this June].

maestrowork · Apr 7, 2008

You can have both -- take Indiana Jones for example. Larger than life. But also flawed, with weaknesses and mistakes. Highly likable and relatable, even if he's out there doing all these outrageously heroic things.

But by flaws you mean some serious problems such as alcoholism, abuse, etc. then -- well, it really depends on your story, I suppose. Is it more about the character's growth? Or is it more about what happens and how the hero is going to save the world?

Calla Lily · Apr 7, 2008

I just grabbed half a dozen Superman graphic novels from the library this weekend. He was always my favorite.

But now he's really annoying the crap out of me. Well, not him--his writers. No matter what happens, they think up a way to get him out of it. Usually an implausible way. Take the "Resurrection of Superman" series--the many comics that had 4 "Supermen" after Doomsday killed him. At the cilmax of the series, the Bad Superman detonates a humongous chunk of kryptonite specifically to obliterate Our Hero. But (ta-dah) the weird protector-entity programmed into the Forterss of Solitude leaps in front of the blast and, as it passes through him--destroying him--his energy alters the Kryptonite so Superman can absorb it and magically get all his powers-plus.

Oh, please. Way to break your own fantasy world rules, guys.

As y'all can tell, I go for the flawed hero. My heroes are way flawed. But they get to change and become, not perfect, but able to use their flaws and what they've learned to catch the bad guy or otherwise resolve the plot.

seunosewa · Apr 7, 2008

Hmm, Beowulf is far from flawless.

icerose · Apr 7, 2008

There's room for both, but I do believe the mythical hero is a thousand times harder to pull off than the flawed.

KTC · Apr 7, 2008

I love the everyday loser hero. The working class hero is something to be.

Jeremy · Apr 7, 2008

I like elements of both in heroes. Having flaws in a character that would otherwise be the epitome of a mighty hero creates a character that is realistic and is something we can easier empathize with.

For example, take Aragorn from the Lord of the Rings books. He is completely flawless, and has no doubts about his destiny; in fact it seems he readily accepts it. However, in the movies they added some depth to the character by giving him some inner conflict about whether he could be a king and thoughts that he would fall like his ancestors. Just those aspects made Aragorn a much better character in the movies. Yet he still has many of the aspects of the flawless hero.

The hero that has flaws as well as ‘mighty hero’ characteristics are the ones I resonate strongly with, and what I personally write about.

willietheshakes · Apr 7, 2008

KTC said:
The working class hero is something to be.

*snicker*

Nateskate · Apr 7, 2008

Overkill said:
My character Gavin Preacher falls into the flawed category but i wonder what you guys might think about the subject.

I think that a mythic hero would begin to seem cartoonish after awhile. It would come off as He-Man.

If none are without sin, then there has to be mistakes made, and a bad day in there somewhere, perhaps many.

One of the tools I use to further my characters is pressure. When confronted with a choice, there has to be a chance they'll take the road of convenience and expediance. Frodo tried to give the Ring away, and it kept falling back in his lap. I'd say that is a very real human condition- I don't feel like being a hero today.

Jeremy · Apr 7, 2008

Nateskate said:
I think that a mythic hero would begin to seem cartoonish after awhile. It would come off as He-Man.

I loved He-Man as a kid, and with the release of the series on DVD I started watching them again. I found myself pretty annoyed with how goody-to-shoes it all is, and in some ways found myself cheering for Skeletor. Which is something I think most authors wouldn't like happening between their main character and villain.

I think others become that way with the mythic hero. There is a part of them that want to see them fall. Again, something most authors don't want happening to their main character. And if everything always works out perfectly for the mythic hero it definitely does start to come across cartoonish, which I personally wouldn't want for my work.

heyjude · Apr 7, 2008

Nateskate said:
One of the tools I use to further my characters is pressure. When confronted with a choice, there has to be a chance they'll take the road of convenience and expediance. Frodo tried to give the Ring away, and it kept falling back in his lap. I'd say that is a very real human condition- I don't feel like being a hero today.

This is very well put. I put my MC (a good guy) in an impossible situation, fully expecting him to rise to the occasion, and he shattered instead. It made for a more interesting plot though.

Phaeal · Apr 7, 2008

Jeremy said:
For example, take Aragorn from the Lord of the Rings books. He is completely flawless, and has no doubts about his destiny; in fact it seems he readily accepts it. However, in the movies they added some depth to the character by giving him some inner conflict about whether he could be a king and thoughts that he would fall like his ancestors. Just those aspects made Aragorn a much better character in the movies. Yet he still has many of the aspects of the flawless hero.

Good point.

The differences between book-Aragorn and movie-Aragorn are indeed illuminating. However, I wouldn't say movie-Aragorn is necessarily a much better character, or even fundamentally unlike book-Aragorn.

Book-Aragorn is not without doubts, but he doesn't trumpet them. In the tradition of epic heroes, he's much more likely to trumpet his virtues. But, hey, you know what? He's only telling the truth about himself. Book-Aragorn is right for the books, hero of the mythic strain, while Frodo and the other hobbits are heroes of the down-to-earth strain.

I expect that Jackson/Boyens/Walsh knew that many modern viewers would feel more comfortable with Uncertain!Aragorn. Not to mention that Uncertain!Aragorn better suited Viggo Mortensen's style.

One of the most telling differences between the books and movies is that movie-Aragorn never delivers those resounding "I am Aragorn, son of Arathorn, heir of Isildur, true King of Gondor, etc." speeches that book-Aragorn does so well. There he is, sitting modestly in Elrond's Council, letting Legolas swat Boromir down with his lineage!

Heh, fun.

shelboselby · Apr 7, 2008

Personally...I think there's room for that mythical hero. But in all honesty, my preferred route would be that of someone who IS a mythical hero, but anyone who helps him out is flawed. Like, say your Manny Magnificent enters a town where there's a crazy dragon wrecking havoc on the town. The only way to destroy said dragon is with, say, a potion made from the shell of one of it's eggs. Manny Magnificent has no idea where the eggs are, but Saddy Morosefulson, the local bar owner whose children were slain violently by the dragon and whose wife subsequently left him, does.

I think the key to having a story with a mythical hero that is still able to be related to is to have other characters that you can relate to. Then the mythical hero is one you can view as magnificent without feeling distanced from the story, because you're still drawn into the world by the other characters.

And then...there's also the route of maybe the hero is mythical, not flawed...but maybe he wishes he could be. Maybe he meets people throughout his life who are flawed, and he sees what beauty there is in emotion, in being flawed and that without being able to hurt, you hurt even more.

sassandgroove · Apr 7, 2008

JoNightshade said:
I think it's easier to identify with a flawed hero because we are, in fact, all flawed. That's just the nature of life.

But is there still room for a mythical, larger-than-life hero?

In my opinion, yes. I think the larger than life hero is HARDER to do well-- easy to fall into a pit of annoying perfection. I could name fifty excellent flawed heroes for every really well done flawless one.

But then I think of the flawless heroes I LOVE. Foremost in my mind is Beowulf. A few months back, before the movie came out, I read the Seamus Heany translation. Oh man, was I blown away. Beowulf is like the personification of "ego." He knows he's great and he's not afraid to brag! But the fact that he IS awesome seems to make all the bragging acceptable, even enjoyable... because even bragging is something he does well!

Or take Jack Sparrow-- the epitome of awesomeness. I love the character, but honestly aside from being a little nuts he doesn't really have any flaws. He's just there to be cool.

Then there are tons of John Wayne movies where he's basically just the good guy, fighting the badguy. (Although there are others where his character has depth, too.) Sometimes it's refreshing just to have a straight-out good-vs-bad conflict. It's fun to root for the right side.

I am glad you stipulated 'before you saw the movie.' Mr. Groove and I just watched the movie 'Beowulf', and it had been a while since either of us read it, but I didn't remeber it like the movie at all. The movie is a good example of taking a mythic hero and trying to make him a modern day flawed hero. it was very strange.

AllisterGrim · Apr 7, 2008

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that MOST mythic heroes are flawed. Of course the flaws, like the characters themselves, have a tendency to be bigger then life.

Most of the characters in Greek myth have a flaw or two. Take Odysseus. Sure he is clever, brave, and a leader of men, but he is also arrogant. His ego condemns him to be at sea for years before he can ever come home again.

In the bible, Samson is undone by his arrogance, and weakness for bad women. Lancelot, the greatest of all Arthur's knights, ends up having that fatal weakness for Guinevere. Big characters often mean big flaws.

The only heroes I can think of without flaws come from the modern action genre : James Bond, etc. Maybe it's because they have a certain wish fulfillment going on. Maybe there's so much action going on we don't have time to think about how perfect they are.

sassandgroove · Apr 7, 2008

The way I read it the OP meant mythic vs flawed to be more mythic vs. real, but I could be wrong.

JoNightshade · Apr 7, 2008

seunosewa said:
Hmm, Beowulf is far from flawless.

The only flaw I could come up with for him is that he's prideful... but even that is pretty justified. I mean, he's awesomez.

Nateskate · Apr 7, 2008

Jeremy said:
I loved He-Man as a kid, and with the release of the series on DVD I started watching them again. I found myself pretty annoyed with how goody-to-shoes it all is, and in some ways found myself cheering for Skeletor. Which is something I think most authors wouldn't like happening between their main character and villain.

I think others become that way with the mythic hero. There is a part of them that want to see them fall. Again, something most authors don't want happening to their main character. And if everything always works out perfectly for the mythic hero it definitely does start to come across cartoonish, which I personally wouldn't want for my work.

In art, shadows are hardest to capture, but they add so much depth. It's the same with imperfections. It makes the characters seem real.

Nateskate · Apr 7, 2008

heyjude said:
This is very well put. I put my MC (a good guy) in an impossible situation, fully expecting him to rise to the occasion, and he shattered instead. It made for a more interesting plot though.

That's great. I think those unplaned twists make the story more interesting, and it keeps us on our toes, because we realize there is an unpredictable element- which makes the characters seem real to us.

BlueTexas · Apr 7, 2008

JoNightshade said:
The only flaw I could come up with for him is that he's prideful... but even that is pretty justified. I mean, he's awesomez.

In the movie anyway, he made a deal with the devil. That's not a flaw?

And not that this adds anything to the discussion either, but Jack Sparrow was a greedy thief, albeit a likeable one

Hollan · Apr 7, 2008

When I think of mythical vs. flawed hero I think of Superman vs. Batman. And I hate Superman, he bores the crap out of me. He's way too good. Batman, on the other hand, is troubled and dark. I love him. But, I only write flawed heros or anti-heros myself b/c mythical heros have never interested me.

BTW, Beowulf didn't make any deals w/ the devil. There was no devil for him to make a deal with b/c the poem was set in pagan Denmark. There's Christian influences in it b/c it was written down by a priests, as were most Old English manuscripts. And he's not Grendel's father. The movie full crap, like most things that come out of Hollywood.

maestrowork · Apr 7, 2008

Name the most famous heroes in literature or film, and see how many of them are "flawed" yet larger than life:

- Indiana Jones
- Beowulf
- Moses
- Luke Skywalker
- Bruce Wayne
- Harry Potter
- Hercules
- Achilles
- Hamlet
- Simba the Lion King

The mythical hero versus the flawed hero .....

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