Ever go against your gut?

Michael Davis · Apr 4, 2008

I'm trying to wrap up a novel I've completed that the publisher requested a rewrite on. As always I have my hit squad review it before I send to the publisher. This time, the most important member of my hit squad, and the only female (my wife) brought up an issue she never mentioned the first go round. She's fairly adamant about it. To correct it would take a minor rewrite (maybe a day). Here's the hitch.

Although male readers have been very positive about my first novel (TAINTED HERO), my prime target is the female reader (I write the story with the ladies in mind). My wife is very smart and informed (of course) and reads one or two novels a week. The issue she brought up deals with how the husband responded to something that happened to his wife. Her view is, women won't like it. My take is that its realistic to how a man would feel (the male character) and how he would respond. Because I trust her insight, I'm leaning toward her view, even though it goes against my gut as a guy.

No, I'm not a wuss, and I'm not afraid of sleeping on the couch, but she has a slant that makes some sense on how women would react, but I have to reorient my mindset.

Curious if any other writers have gone against their gut views and changed a storyline because of inputs from pre-submission reviewers, and what the end result was. All the review inputs on my first two novels I agreed with and they worked out great.

Just curious.

ReneC · Apr 4, 2008

Michael Davis said:
The issue she brought up deals with how the husband responded to something that happened to his wife. Her view is, women won't like it. My take is that its realistic to how a man would feel (the male character) and how he would respond. Because I trust her insight, I'm leaning toward her view, even though it goes against my gut as a guy.

Your wife might have a good point, but your character is male. If your character does everything that women want, he'd be...well, female. I'd say listen to your gut unless you risk losing your audience entirely. If everything else about your character appeals to women, they'll forgive this deviation and it might actually make your character more believable by behaving like a typical man.

Without knowing the story, it's all speculation on my part but that's my two cents.

czjaba · Apr 4, 2008

I think it should depend on how your male character would react. Just because you are a male, doesn't mean your character would/should act the way you would. I know lots of women that don't particularly like some of the responses (or lack thereof) from their husbands. If your character is a jerk, he should respond like a jerk. Or if he is sensitive, he should respond that way.

KTC · Apr 4, 2008

Shouldn't you write true to the character, not true to your wife's opinion?

willietheshakes · Apr 4, 2008

The only time I've gone against my gut, I've regretted it. It has to do with the American edition of BIW -- it's a long story, and I can't bring myself to get drunk enough to tell it at the moment.

As for male characters doing things female readers won't like - yeah, I've got experience with that, too. It was a running joke for a while that I could always tell when a female reader (pre-submission and during the publication process) hit a certain scene early in the book: I'd get calls, emails, etc, almost invariably along the lines of "What a bastard! I can't believe he'd..."

The few male readers at that early juncture, when surveyed, all shrugged, and said something along the lines of "Yup. That's totally what he would do."

Mars, Venus, etc.

rugcat · Apr 4, 2008

There's a difference between simply "women won't like it" and "women won't like what the husband's response to the situation was, and therefore his character will take on some baggage you don't intend him to have, and it will affect their perception of him for the entire rest of the book in ways you don't want."

Going with your gut is fine if it's a central issue that defines what you're trying to get across and changing it would change the entire meaning of the book. If not, listening to your wife is not being weak, it's being smart.

HeronW · Apr 4, 2008

You value her input, but even though women may not like what the male char does says--IT'S A CHARACTER! NOT YOU, and not anyone she interacts with on a live basis.

Like/dislike isn't the issue--what is is the validity of the action/words of the male char. Would this make her drop reading the book even though she doesn't like him? Or keep reading and hope he's redeemable?

Stick with your gut/instinct/intuition. The char is speaking/doing--not your wife/partner/beta reader, etc.

Michael Davis · Apr 4, 2008

After reading your comments and rethinking this, its possible the issue is different then I thought. The main characters wife was brutally attacked. Afterwards she begs him not to go to the police, afraid for the shame and the typical ineptness in the legal system. He agrees not to go to the authorities. Instead, without telling her, he takes care of matters himself. I think her point is that a typical modern male would not behave like that. The act of taking care of it himself is atypical, something I would do, but not the norm. She may be right. That makes the behavior uncharacteristic of reality. I don't know how most males would behave, would they set things right themselves?

I may just have do go with my gut and reflect the character the way I would want him to react, not the way most would react, and if that goes against the grain of expectations, so be it.

KTC · Apr 4, 2008

Um... taking care of it yourself is something quite a few men would do, IMHO. It is the knee jerk reaction that many would fall into. The reason for many a criminal records...

icerose · Apr 4, 2008

My husband would be first in line with a gun to take care of it himself if anything happened to me or the kids. I would be begging him to go to the police and he would be locking and loading.

The problem I have is the fact that she's asking him not to go. If she was raped, she needs the 72 hour drug if she isn't on birth control, a rape kit, and a STD screening asap. That's the part I have hard time believing, is her asking him not to go to the police out of shame? I guess I could be one of those weird females, but I would do everything I could to protect myself and my family, and that includes going through the process.

bluntforcetrauma · Apr 4, 2008

KTC said:
Shouldn't you write true to the character, not true to your wife's opinion?

Sure, if he really likes that couch.

Shweta · Apr 4, 2008

Michael Davis said:
The act of taking care of it himself is atypical, something I would do, but not the norm. She may be right. That makes the behavior uncharacteristic of reality. I don't know how most males would behave, would they set things right themselves?

If that's what he'd do, why not have him do it and have the wife be appalled? Then you have the male MC acting appropriately, and you have the wife reflecting your wife's attitude (and mine if my husband was ever stupid enough to get into legal trouble on my behalf, I'd add

)

However:

icerose said:
The problem I have is the fact that she's asking him not to go. If she was raped, she needs the 72 hour drug if she isn't on birth control, a rape kit, and a STD screening asap. That's the part I have hard time believing, is her asking him not to go to the police out of shame? I guess I could be one of those weird females, but I would do everything I could to protect myself and my family, and that includes going through the process.

I have got to agree with this. Loudly. What kind of prehistoric mentality does she have here? She should be getting to a hospital, and they'd inform the police. Is she crazy enough not to have an STD check at the very least?
I mean okay, she's probably in shock and going to make stupid decisions, but this one's a potentially deadly stupid decision and not one she should be allowed to make when she's not necessarily in her right mind.

ETA: rereading my reaction... I guess you're making me identify with the character, though

sanctuary6284 · Apr 4, 2008

As a guy, if she wasn't going to the police I'd take care of it myself. I assume that you have the wife's reaction after the fact. I can see if you have a character who never puts a toe out of line but if you've shown how shocked your character was and how this situation totally destroyed how he might have mentally pictured his perfect world it is totally conceivable that he would find the perp and handle things especially when she won't go to the police. Or he should at least threaten to go to the police himself first. It just depends on his character. As the author only you know how he would really react. Is he the timid no conflict type? Or the just indignant type? Does he have a lot of pride about his life? Does he have a violent history? Does he track this guy down or just bump into him somewhere? All of that plays a part.

If you've built him up then I think she's just reacting to the act because she doesn't like it. Follow your gut.

On the other hand if she's telling you he doesn't seem like the type...I would look over all the things leading up to this and the events thereafter closely and analyze my characters responses and thoughts.

Michael Davis · Apr 4, 2008

You raise very good points, but do all women that are raped report it? I don't think so. I saw a stat some years ago that estimated a fair fraction of rape cases go unreported. Why? Fear, emotional trauma, misplaced shame. The fact is, unless things have changed, rape still goes unreported, because some victims (right or wrong) chose not to.

Your feedback is very helpful. Especially since the views are diverse. In retrospect, I'm not sure with this topic if any reaction by the husband and wife would be acceptable to every reader. And I'm not saying all readers have to agree, but I don't want to switch off a significant number by one element in the story. I guess that leaves me with two questions to resolve:

1. How would most female readers react if she chose to do nothing?
2. How would they react if he made things right by his own hands?

I'm unsure these two questions can be answered before its published. My preference as a reader would be to read it as it is currently written (course I am a male.) The views from some of the females here makes me question if this is not such a reactionary element to the reader that many would lose contact with the story. Perhaps that's why my wife reacted the way she did.

I'm going to have to stew on this one. May have to take this part out of the story line. Problem is, it does set the stage for some important events and struggles downstream.

I hate when I run into these obstacles in a story, but I'll work it out somehow, always have. May not be what I would prefer, but I'll come up with a viable solution. Just going to have to keep working on the damn manuscript. Kind of tired of rewriting the thing.

All these inputs are helpful and appreciated. They all shed new light and views.

Thanx

Shweta · Apr 4, 2008

I agree that these are both possible reactions.
People have unprotected sex, too, even when they know about STDs.
I'm just saying I'd find these reactions stupid, not implausible

And it's okay for characters to do stupid things! In fact it's pretty wonderful if you can get readers going "noooo don't do that!!"
So long as there are consequences.

Personally though, I'd lose much more sympathy with the wife than with the husband. He's acting in a way that endangers himself, but she's acting in a way that endangers herself and him.

Ravenlocks · Apr 4, 2008

Michael Davis said:
1. How would most female readers react if she chose to do nothing?

She should at least go to the doctor and get tested for STDs, even if she doesn't want to get the police involved, and I could see why she might not, for various reasons.

Is there really such a thing as "most female readers"? We're all different.

Michael Davis said:
2. How would they react if he made things right by his own hands?

I'm a woman and I have no problem with that. If she won't go to the police, is she really expecting the guy to just do nothing? If she went to the police, sure, the guy could let them handle it. But without them? He's not going to sit around idle.

ETA: Every time I've gone against my gut it's been the wrong decision. I say go with your gut.

ishtar'sgate · Apr 4, 2008

Well, now you've got ME curious. What happened to his wife and how did he respond? Me? I'd go with my gut. Always. Your're a man. Your character is a man. Women frequently don't like how men react and that's real life, so I'd leave it the way you wrote it and let your male character squirm his way out of it.

Linnea

ishtar'sgate · Apr 4, 2008

Michael Davis said:
Instead, without telling her, he takes care of matters himself. I think her point is that a typical modern male would not behave like that. The act of taking care of it himself is atypical, something I would do, but not the norm. She may be right.

O-o-ops. Didn't read far enough to see what happened to the wife. Perhaps for a certain segment of society that wouldn't be the norm but for my husband it is. That's exactly what he'd do - take care of it himself.
Linnea

Scribhneoir · Apr 5, 2008

Michael Davis said:
1. How would most female readers react if she chose to do nothing?

She'd have to have a damn good reason to do nothing or I'd be throwing the book across the room. Misplaced shame wouldn't be enough for me because I'd find it difficult to sympathize with a character so willing to victimize herself further by keeping silent.

2. How would they react if he made things right by his own hands?

I'd probably be cheering him on. But it would depend on the circumstances. I'd be rooting wholeheartedly for a man making things right himself because the system failed him and his wife. I'd be less likely to cheer if the man was simply going about it from excess machismo.

My two cents, for what it's worth.

David I · Apr 5, 2008

Michael Davis said:
After reading your comments and rethinking this, its possible the issue is different then I thought. The main characters wife was brutally attacked. Afterwards she begs him not to go to the police, afraid for the shame and the typical ineptness in the legal system. He agrees not to go to the authorities. Instead, without telling her, he takes care of matters himself. I think her point is that a typical modern male would not behave like that. The act of taking care of it himself is atypical, something I would do, but not the norm. She may be right. That makes the behavior uncharacteristic of reality. I don't know how most males would behave, would they set things right themselves?

I may just have do go with my gut and reflect the character the way I would want him to react, not the way most would react, and if that goes against the grain of expectations, so be it.

Actually, the "we'll handle this ourselves" thing has been featured in many, many novels, so whether or not it is the norm isn't really relevant.

Check out Robert B Parker's Wilderness, which is the most slickly constructed example of this plot I've ever seen. (And it takes a "normal guy" and, by the construction of the story, forces him to do what you're describing.)

I should say, though, that usually novels employing any kind of extralegal revenge go to great pains not only to motivate the character, but also to make sure that circumstances force them to go outside the law. Perhaps your wife's real objection is motivated by the fact that you haven't nailed your character into a tight-enough box.

job · Apr 5, 2008

Your story. Your book.

Carefully consider her comment.
Then decide, based on what's good for the book. You are the expert on what's good for the book. No passing the buck.

Nateskate · Apr 5, 2008

Since most readers, by far, are female, then it makes sense to take the female perspective into consideration throughout the entire process.

Men who get clues from women on what to buy a woman, or how to approach a woman, generally will get better advice.

Lol, it's like a teen angst movie, where a guy goes to his male friends, and get all this clueless information.

Scrawler · Apr 5, 2008

I asked my husband what he'd do if someone brutally attacked me. His immediate reply - "I'd kill the guy!!!!!!!" (he's a level-headed engineer).
When he calmed down, I added the part about my request not to involve the authorities and he said he'd call them anyway and if they didn't do anything (to his satisfaction) he'd take matters into his own hands.

1. How would most female readers react if she chose to do nothing?
I'd have a hard time with this. I don't know how much sympathy I could have. It's one thing to be victimized, another to choose to remain a victim.

2. How would they react if he made things right by his own hands? Part of me would be relieved but I'd also worry about retribution or some type of "law enforcement/CSI" repercussions.

Michael Davis · Apr 5, 2008

I really appreciate everyone's time to give advice. It has helped me to decide what I'm going to do. I would never have through about asking a forum for views before, but it has been very insight, and I'm glad I did.

I do believe that the mental anguish and fear of such an experience can cause some women to want to push away and choose not to report it to the law. So she will be raped, and it wouldn't be reported, but she will be tested for STDs (you can get tested without giving a reason why). I believe that I have to better explain his mind set and why he felt forced to take out the scum, as well as her mind set for why she didn't.

I considered removing the event but it was too important to the storyline and eventual scenes that happen downstream. I considered making him do nothing, but the problem is, I as the writer could no longer relate to or respect my main character. The diversity of views expressed is insightful and lead me to this course. The view to "go with my gut" I think rings true. I may upset some readers, but how can I write something that goes against my grain, and I would never allow the scum to exist to do it to another woman, or to the husband, because both carry baggage.

Thanks to all, and you did help me home in on a solution. I mean that. What I've decided to do is a reversal of what I intended before the post, and it may not be a perfect, but when is writing perfect.

Thanx

swvaughn · Apr 5, 2008

Michael Davis said:
but do all women that are raped report it?

Absolutely not. It's a humiliating, degrading experience, and many women do not report it - some not even to their husbands/boyfriends.

As for being tested for STDs - yes, you can get that testing without stating a reason.

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