What do animated animals eat, if all animated animals are sentient?

R. Scott Kennan · Apr 1, 2008

I'm working on the script for what I imagine as a computer animated movie involving anthropomorphic animals, in the vein of the "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles" series. It's a fantasy setting of sorts, where there are no humans, and animals have been gifted with intelligence and a quasi-bipedal form.

The story is fairly serious and action oriented, like Nickelodeon's "Avatar: The Last Airbender."

I have some bad guys in the form of predators, but I wanted to have at least one predator ally himself with the heroes. The role of the bad guys isn't genetic, it's based on a difference of opinion that can be resolved (with some difficulty) at the end of the story.

I'm having a problem determining what the "predators" eat. If I have them eat sentient herbivores, they immediately lose all sympathy and the story becomes too dark for a kid's movie. Eating the good guys is an irreconcilable difference, and I end up with no resolution possible. The main character is driven by a need to make peace with the invading predators, and if they actually eat the good guys, then he becomes a fool rather than a hero.

Here's what I'm working with so far, setting wise:

There is minor magic available.
Insects aren't intelligent.
The World is lush and overgrown with fruits and vegetables.

How might I solve this problem? Should I ignore it? Make the sentient versions of animals different from the animal versions? Change my main character's drive and the resolution?

Thanks in advance.

Ziljon · Apr 1, 2008

The movie Madagascar deals with this problem. A New York City Zoo lion is transported to Madagascar where, as he becomes hungrier and hungrier, he begins to turn on his best friend, a Zebra. In the end, a bunch of supercool penguins solve the dilemma by introducing the lion to Sushi.

Kristy101081 · Apr 1, 2008

It's possible you've backed yourself into a corner by creating 'predators' to begin with. That implies there is some sort of food chain, in which case, your good guys would be their food.

Can you alter the bad guys where they're not predators, per se? Have them herbivores like the good guys? After all, your conflict is due to a misunderstanding. Or, perhaps they're insectivores. You mentioned that insects are not sentient, so that may be your solution. Aardvark's and praying mantis' in a quasi-bipedal form look a little evil in my imagination, so I think they could serve your purpose without losing the kid appeal.

Just a thought.

mommyjo2 · Apr 1, 2008

In Disney movies, the "good guys" eat non-sentient creatures. (Think of Timon and Pumbaa eating those bugs).

In "Finding Nemo", the shark's struggle to NOT eat fish ("Fish are friends, not food") helps identify him as a helper/good guy.

DeaconBlu · Apr 1, 2008

The Chronicles of Narnia. It's been a long time since I've read them but it seems Aslan gave a talk about sentient creatures never eating other sentient creatures. They gorged on the dumb ones because they had both types in their world.

NikeeGoddess · Apr 1, 2008

maybe they could be predators at first but your good guys create a new food like tofu and will keep them healthy and help in the peace effort.

i can imagine a scene where a good guy chef/scientist gives one of them (the one who allies with them) a "good guy shaped" tofu that freaks everybody out... until he tells them that's it's tofu.

icerose · Apr 1, 2008

Lion King is a good example. The good guys eat innocent animals.

Part of the trick is not showing it.

This sort of thing has kind of been done with Transformers when they did the animal series. Optimus prime was a gorilla (big shock I know) and so on and so forth. There was a cheetah - preditor - and I think a rhino as well as others. It's been a long time!

The bad guys were preditorial dinosaurs. Like raptors and such.

Rainy Night · Apr 1, 2008

Is there a need to show them eating, maybe it's a topic that can be avoided altogether.

preyer · Apr 1, 2008

my vote is for what i thought of after the OP, to eat non-sentient species. otherwise it's essentially cannibalism, which is what a few primitive human cultures practice... but we ain't one of 'em. certain people believe eating parts of their enemy gives them their enemy's strength (which doesn't make much sense ~ i mean, if you killed your enemy, what could you gain? lol).

then again, unless there's a banquet or need to show what they eat, i probably wouldn't discuss it. i mean, there's got to be better things to do in what little space you've got, eh?

then again, i like the idea of a band of predators plodding along and one of them picks a funky fruit from the tree and the leader slaps it out of his hand. 'you only eat what you kill!' eating their victims could be ceremonial or a rite of passage.

nmstevens · Apr 1, 2008

R. Scott Kennan said:
I'm working on the script for what I imagine as a computer animated movie involving anthropomorphic animals, in the vein of the "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles" series. It's a fantasy setting of sorts, where there are no humans, and animals have been gifted with intelligence and a quasi-bipedal form.

The story is fairly serious and action oriented, like Nickelodeon's "Avatar: The Last Airbender."

I have some bad guys in the form of predators, but I wanted to have at least one predator ally himself with the heroes. The role of the bad guys isn't genetic, it's based on a difference of opinion that can be resolved (with some difficulty) at the end of the story.

I'm having a problem determining what the "predators" eat. If I have them eat sentient herbivores, they immediately lose all sympathy and the story becomes too dark for a kid's movie. Eating the good guys is an irreconcilable difference, and I end up with no resolution possible. The main character is driven by a need to make peace with the invading predators, and if they actually eat the good guys, then he becomes a fool rather than a hero.

Here's what I'm working with so far, setting wise:

There is minor magic available.
Insects aren't intelligent.
The World is lush and overgrown with fruits and vegetables.

How might I solve this problem? Should I ignore it? Make the sentient versions of animals different from the animal versions? Change my main character's drive and the resolution?

Thanks in advance.

Unless there's some overwhelming need to address it -- ignore it. You're not showing the whole world. Maybe sentience isn't universal among the animal kingdom. Maybe only certain species are sentient -- allowing things like squirrels and cows and chickens and other potentially tasty edibles to stay on the menu?

Who knows? The idea of talking animals is fantasy to begin with. I mean - are the bigger brained animals smarter than the smaller brained ones? Are monkeys smarter than dogs? Dogs smarter than rats? Rats smarter than lizards?

And having given them intelligence (I always love asking these questions) -- what do they do with it? Do the intelligent cows actually do anything other than simply continue on, being and doing exactly what regular cows do -- only they're smart? Do they create their own civilization, have their own mythology, have their own cow libraries -- next to the squirrel libraries, next to the badger libraries, next to the sparrow libraries, next to the robin libaries, next to the blue jay libraries.

It all just gets a bit goofy once you start really trying to make it work in a literal anthropological sense -- that is, once you lift it up out of the "Bambi" realm -- where "Friend Owl" talks to all the little chipmunks and rabbits and squirrels -- that is, his natural prey -- and everybody just seems to get along fine. And it's all just accepted as a kind of "fairy tale" convention.

NMS

FinbarReilly · Apr 2, 2008

1) For an excellent reference, I would suggest tracking down a copy of the IronClaw/JadeClaw RPG, or World Tree; they have working civilizations based on anthromorphs with some magic as part of the culture.

2) The food situation is pretty much a silly vegetarian philosophical issue, as it seems cannibalistic for intelligent creatures to eat any kind of meat. TMNT got around it through pizza; most of the developed worlds I've seen have a non-intelligent species that serves as meat (note the sushi in Madagascar). It shouldn't be the issue you are thinking it is.

2) Why do predators have to be the bad guys? There need to be more herbivore villains, especially if the critter is one of the non-aggressive species; unless there is a pretty good reason, predator=villain usually relegates your script to instant yawn. Lion King got around this problem by having a villain related to the king, and his motivation was somewhere between revenge and ambition. Watership Down used other bunnies. Usagi Yojimbo was another lit source that used bunnies as the main source of violence.

As someone who has watched a wide variety of movies featuring furry characters, my eyes roll pretty much automatically when I see yet another movie where the bad guys are predators and the prey species are "good".

FR

preyer · Apr 2, 2008

if mark twain has taught us anything about blue jays it's that they can't be trusted.

'lion king' addressed the issue heads on and didn't even attempt to convince the audience they didn't eat meat. they got around it by calling it a 'circle of life.' clearly, most animals had some sort of sentience if they bowed to the cub. that is, they knew what was going on... all leading towards the idea that they are consciously aware of their own life. for example, seeing a reflection of themselves and able to comprehend that it's them, not another wildebeast staring up at them from the watering hole. sentience is simply self-awareness, no?

it can be an issue, but mostly if you make it one, i think. for 'the lion king' i believe it was necessary as food was kind of a big thing.

why are predators considered 'bad'? i think that's rather self-explanatory, lol. but, i know what you're saying, and i agree ~ vegetarians are evil. i'm eating a penguin burger right now and my mom doesn't think i'm evil. well, *that* evil. i figure if i went to the trouble of going to the zoo and clubbing the thing, the least i could do is munch on its carcass.

what chaps my hide is the idea of 'good' vampires. that's basically feeding on humans. there too often seems to be some kind of substitute for human blood to get around the issue when it's for the good guys.

i think intelligent cows hide.

nmstevens · Apr 2, 2008

FinbarReilly said:
1) For an excellent reference, I would suggest tracking down a copy of the IronClaw/JadeClaw RPG, or World Tree; they have working civilizations based on anthromorphs with some magic as part of the culture.

2) The food situation is pretty much a silly vegetarian philosophical issue, as it seems cannibalistic for intelligent creatures to eat any kind of meat. TMNT got around it through pizza; most of the developed worlds I've seen have a non-intelligent species that serves as meat (note the sushi in Madagascar). It shouldn't be the issue you are thinking it is.

2) Why do predators have to be the bad guys? There need to be more herbivore villains, especially if the critter is one of the non-aggressive species; unless there is a pretty good reason, predator=villain usually relegates your script to instant yawn. Lion King got around this problem by having a villain related to the king, and his motivation was somewhere between revenge and ambition. Watership Down used other bunnies. Usagi Yojimbo was another lit source that used bunnies as the main source of violence.

As someone who has watched a wide variety of movies featuring furry characters, my eyes roll pretty much automatically when I see yet another movie where the bad guys are predators and the prey species are "good".

FR

They did the same sort of thing in Dinotopia which, despite the neat looking world, had exactly that same "evil meat-eater/ nice plant eater" world view.

For once, in one of those goofy worlds, I'd love to have the plants start talking and beg not to be eaten. Then they'd say, "Oh, okay, then we'll just eat your fruit and seeds -- at which point they'd say, "Fruit? Seeds?You mean our children!!!"

Everything depends on your point of view.

NMS

R. Scott Kennan · Apr 5, 2008

Thank you everyone.

I've decided to only give sentience to members of a few species, and to make insects the enemy, as Kristi suggested. I have a method of doing this (and reversing it) that will be central to the plot.

A couple of notes-

The creatures that are "uplifted" to human intelligence do indeed have civilizations, with tools, clothing, etc. It's pretty integral to their cultures and setting that they continue the legacy of the humans that set up their world. They're constantly talking about humans with awe. They'll find out towards the end that humans didn't have all the answers.

Predators and herbivores will work together- there's a taboo against eating sentients, regardless of where they once fell on the food chain.

I'm a gamer, and I checked out Jadeclaw/Ironclaw as I started this project. Good stuff on how to manage anthropomorphic animals, albeit a bit too geared towards the furry culture for me.

Even though I've covered the bases of my objection, I'm still going to shy away from showing too much meat-eating.

Anyway, I think I've resolved it well enough to get going. Thanks, everyone.

Smiling Ted · Apr 8, 2008

R. Scott Kennan said:
Thank you everyone.

I've decided to only give sentience to members of a few species, and to make insects the enemy, as Kristi suggested. I have a method of doing this (and reversing it) that will be central to the plot.

A couple of notes-

The creatures that are "uplifted" to human intelligence do indeed have civilizations, with tools, clothing, etc. It's pretty integral to their cultures and setting that they continue the legacy of the humans that set up their world. They're constantly talking about humans with awe. They'll find out towards the end that humans didn't have all the answers.

Predators and herbivores will work together- there's a taboo against eating sentients, regardless of where they once fell on the food chain.

I'm a gamer, and I checked out Jadeclaw/Ironclaw as I started this project. Good stuff on how to manage anthropomorphic animals, albeit a bit too geared towards the furry culture for me.

Even though I've covered the bases of my objection, I'm still going to shy away from showing too much meat-eating.

Anyway, I think I've resolved it well enough to get going. Thanks, everyone.

"Uplifted"? A fan of David Brin, perhaps?

What do animated animals eat, if all animated animals are sentient?

R. Scott Kennan

Ziljon

Tortilla di Patate

Kristy101081

mommyjo2

Bad grammar make me [sic]

DeaconBlu

NikeeGoddess

icerose

Lost in School Work

Rainy Night

INFJ

preyer

excessively spartan

nmstevens

What happened?

FinbarReilly

preyer

excessively spartan

nmstevens

What happened?

R. Scott Kennan

Smiling Ted

Ah-HA!