In sci-fi / fantasy you don't need an agent first...

rainboy · Mar 29, 2008

I read an article recently with Orson Scott Card in which he said that unless you're writing sci-fi / fantasy, it's a good idea to get an agent before looking into publishers. If you're writing sci-fi / fantasy, on the other hand, you should just query publishers directly without getting an agent first.

That's what he said. Now, my question is, what's the reasoning behind this?

Toothpaste · Mar 29, 2008

I wonder if possibly there are more publishers of SF/Fantasy that will take un-agented submissions? I know of several well respected presses that do. Then again every SF/Fantasy writer I know has an agent.

triceretops · Mar 29, 2008

My agent actually took me aboard because of my SF novel. But I will say this, there are tons of smaller SF and Fantasy publishers out there that do not require an agent. But for the big dogs in NYC, man, you just can't get around not having that agent rep. Maybe Card was simply expressing that there's more opportunities out there for unagented SF and Fantasy writers than most other genres.

Tri

yappo · Mar 29, 2008

Have you checked the date of that article? It could be close to twenty years old.

Sten

rainboy · Mar 29, 2008

This is the article in question (it's from 1999):

Question

Do I need an agent?

-- Submitted by Anonymous

OSC Replies:

Depends on the field you're writing in. If you're writing sf or fantasy, an agent is not needed at first. In fact, the kind of agent you can get before your first offer from a publisher is not the kind of agent you want afterward, as a general rule.

http://www.hatrack.com/writingclass/lessons/1999-01-29.shtml

yappo · Mar 29, 2008

That's still nine years ago. Business behaviour can change a lot in that time.

I'm not saying that his advice is sound or the opposite, just that it is dated. It may or may not still be valid, but I'd personally search for more recent professional opinions.

Sten

Karen Duvall · Mar 29, 2008

In 1999, the personal computer wasn't as common a household item as a microwave oven. It is now. Which means more people are trying their hand at writing a novel. Which translates to a lot of unpublished manuscripts flooding the market. I'm sure the policy of agented manuscripts only is a direct result of this flood. Publishers were needing someone to screen through the bad stuff before it could find its way to their desks and what better gatekeeper than a literary agent? So voila, there you have it. Unless the publisher is a very hungry small press, you're going to need an agent to get your manuscript read.

waylander · Mar 29, 2008

He's way out of date. Get an agent if you can. There are fewer publishers and, of those still around, fewer take unsolicited subs. It is possible to get SF/F editors to look at your work by meeting them at cons, but it takes forever to get a reply. If your stuff is good enough that you could get a deal that way then you can get an agent.

AuthorGuy · Mar 29, 2008

waylander said:
There are fewer publishers and, of those still around, fewer take unsolicited subs.

Actually there are lots of publishers, but most of them are small. The big names have all been conglommed into something like 7 different companies, although they look like 30-40, since they keep the imprints going. I don't have an agent, nor am I likely to get one, since my ability to write query letters and synopses is utterly lacking. I got my publisher by simply writing an email asking if they wanted to see the MS and one of them said yes.

Desert Topaz · Mar 29, 2008

SF/Fantasy does have a greater amount of publishers that will take unagented submissions than mainstream fiction. Tor, Baen, and DAW are examples of those who will.

The plus of finding an agent first is you can query a lot of agents at the same time trying to find representation. If you submit directly to the publisher you have to wait for them to respond before you can send it to the next, and it could be sitting in their slush pile for a year. Some recommend going the publisher route first, because it's easy to get an agent if you have an offer from a publisher. But, it's easier to find a publisher if you have an agent.

Smiling Ted · Mar 29, 2008

Desert Topaz said:
If you submit directly to the publisher you have to wait for them to respond before you can send it to the next, and it could be sitting in their slush pile for a year.

That's not entirely correct. For instance, Baen allows simultaneous submissions, IIRC - although you're right that the response time is enormous.

waylander · Mar 30, 2008

We've all seen the picture of the Tor slushpile right?
If not go to Slushkiler http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/004641.html

and look the the link to the picture or go here
http://www.sfrevu.com/ISSUES/2002/0208/Event - Tor/20020416 Tor-NYC 053.jpg

waylander · Mar 30, 2008

AuthorGuy said:
Actually there are lots of publishers, but most of them are small. The big names have all been conglommed into something like 7 different companies, although they look like 30-40, since they keep the imprints going. I don't have an agent, nor am I likely to get one, since my ability to write query letters and synopses is utterly lacking. I got my publisher by simply writing an email asking if they wanted to see the MS and one of them said yes.

OK, maybe we should draw a distinction here between the big name houses and independent publishers. For the big name houses I stand by my view that you should try to get an agent. For the independents then certainly you can approach directly; whether you want to go with them is a whole different discussion.
As soon as these independents start doing well they move to agented submisisons because they find themselves drowning in submisisons.

GeorgeK · Mar 30, 2008

Desert Topaz said:
SF/Fantasy does have a greater amount of publishers that will take unagented submissions than mainstream fiction. Tor, Baen, and DAW are examples of those who will.
.

The responses I got (by phone talking to a secretary, so undocumented) from all three of them was that their websites were out of date and they require an agent. (unless you were already published, then they might take a look at it. The volume of submissions was simply too high to pay enough people to actually look at everything)

Saanen · Mar 30, 2008

GeorgeK said:
The responses I got (by phone talking to a secretary, so undocumented) from all three of them was that their websites were out of date and they require an agent.

That doesn't make sense when Baen Books, for instance, has a webform for submitting manuscripts. Not only that, but I subbed there a bit over a year ago and recently got a personal rejection with specific suggestions as to what the manuscript needed, so someone's reading the slush.

Wizards of the Coast's new Discoveries line has an open call every fall that doesn't require an agent. I'm not sure if he has an agent now, but I know our very own badducky got picked out of the slush for that one, and I recently bought his book at B&N.

triceretops · Mar 30, 2008

Yes WOTC does have an open call for general subs. My agent got my full in there during the "off-call" season. Agented submissions are exempt from the open call there.

Tri

dark_opus · Mar 30, 2008

One additional tidbit: I've seen agent criteria indicating that they aren't interested in manuscripts that have been unsuccessfully shopped to publishers. Sort of like building up a bad rap sheet that, even in the face of any agent connections into the house, potentially adds too much to the degree of difficulty.

Of course, as in all rules and truisms, there will be exceptions.

Desert Topaz · Mar 30, 2008

GeorgeK said:
The responses I got (by phone talking to a secretary, so undocumented) from all three of them was that their websites were out of date and they require an agent. (unless you were already published, then they might take a look at it. The volume of submissions was simply too high to pay enough people to actually look at everything)

I'm sorry, but at least one secretary misinformed you. Tor overhauled their website not so long ago and it most definitely still says they accept open submissions. Saanen has a point about Baen. Why have a webform if they don't want manuscripts? If a publisher was going to make that large a change to their submission policy, especially publishers that have a long history of accepting unsolicited manuscripts, it would have been commented on loudly here on the interwebs. I've heard nothing. And I would have.

And another note about those publishers that don't accept unsolicited manuscripts: sometimes they accept queries. If they request your manuscript from your query you aren't unsolicited anymore

Smiling Ted · Mar 30, 2008

It's also important to distinguish between publishers and imprints.

A publisher might have two or more different imprints that all publish F/SF, but are run by different people, have different catalogs and tastes, and different submissions policies. For instance, Penguin publishes its own F/SF, and also owns the DAW F/SF imprint.

Smiling Ted · Mar 30, 2008

yappo said:
That's still nine years ago. Business behaviour can change a lot in that time.

I'm not saying that his advice is sound or the opposite, just that it is dated. It may or may not still be valid, but I'd personally search for more recent professional opinions.

Sten

Yes, and add to that the amount of time that's passed since Orson had to worry about finding an agent....

Phaeal · Mar 30, 2008

Karen Duvall said:
In 1999, the personal computer wasn't as common a household item as a microwave oven. It is now. Which means more people are trying their hand at writing a novel. Which translates to a lot of unpublished manuscripts flooding the market. I'm sure the policy of agented manuscripts only is a direct result of this flood. Publishers were needing someone to screen through the bad stuff before it could find its way to their desks and what better gatekeeper than a literary agent? So voila, there you have it. Unless the publisher is a very hungry small press, you're going to need an agent to get your manuscript read.

This is pretty much my analysis of the situation. A number of Internet developments have encouraged people to write, including the ease of disseminating fan/original fiction and challenges like NaNoWriMo. People writing is a very good thing. However, exposure to constant talk about getting agents and getting published, along with the relative ease of querying and submitting via email, may be encouraging premature marketing, flooding agents and editors with inappropriate submissions at an unprecedented rate.

I'm basing my analysis on all the posts I've read here, on NaNoWriMo and on other sites from people (young and old) planning to market first drafts or seemingly unpolished material. Pretty unscientific analysis, yup, but my impression remains.

I wonder if anyone knows of research or agent/editor opinion on this issue?

Anyhow, I wouldn't submit an unagented MS even to those big NY dogs that do allow it. The slush pile is a scary place to be -- you'll get a much quicker and less offhand read, from all I've gathered, if an agent gets you in the door. And I also understand that the etiquette is this: an agent should not resubmit a manuscript to a house that's already rejected it as slush.

Small presses seem to be another whole story.

Kasey Mackenzie · Mar 30, 2008

I think that this bit of advice in particular from OSC: "In fact, the kind of agent you can get before your first offer from a publisher is not the kind of agent you want afterward, as a general rule." isn't entirely true/accurate/timely. I just signed with Ginger Clark at Curtis Brown, who from what I've seen and heard is well-regarded in the SFF field, and I do not yet have any offers from publishers in hand. And I know several other authors who snagged reputable SFF agents without offers beforehand.

I'm not completely discounting his advice, I just don't fully agree with that bit in particular.

waylander · Mar 31, 2008

Kasey Mackenzie said:
I think that this bit of advice in particular from OSC: "In fact, the kind of agent you can get before your first offer from a publisher is not the kind of agent you want afterward, as a general rule." isn't entirely true/accurate/timely. I just signed with Ginger Clark at Curtis Brown, who from what I've seen and heard is well-regarded in the SFF field, and I do not yet have any offers from publishers in hand. And I know several other authors who snagged reputable SFF agents without offers beforehand.

I'm not completely discounting his advice, I just don't fully agree with that bit in particular.

What she said

Straka · Apr 9, 2008

I've heard the SF/F is one of the easiest genres to break into as a new author, but one of the hardest to break out of.

Will Lavender · Apr 9, 2008

Kasey Mackenzie said:
I think that this bit of advice in particular from OSC: "In fact, the kind of agent you can get before your first offer from a publisher is not the kind of agent you want afterward, as a general rule." isn't entirely true/accurate/timely. I just signed with Ginger Clark at Curtis Brown, who from what I've seen and heard is well-regarded in the SFF field, and I do not yet have any offers from publishers in hand. And I know several other authors who snagged reputable SFF agents without offers beforehand.

I'm not completely discounting his advice, I just don't fully agree with that bit in particular.

Agreed. And in fact I'm not even really sure what Card meant by that. It's just...silly.

In sci-fi / fantasy you don't need an agent first...

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