The novel I'm working on involves a torture scene. The question I have is about the limits of gory and violent detail. What is considered too much? I really feel the torture scene works well for my story, but I don't want it rejected because it's overdone.
Torture Scenes
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Ooh, that's a tough one. It really depends on the kind of book it is and who the publisher would be. Have you read similar scenes in published books you've read? Not everyone is comfortable witnessing torture.
Personally, I think the psychological and emotional response to torture is far more spine-tingling than the act of torture itself. So if you're going to create a scene like this, you need to get deep inside your tortured character's POV, IMO. I include some torture in my published suspense novel DESERT GUARDIAN, but it's not bloody or gory. The story features a suicide cult and there are scenes that reveal how they punish wayward followers and enemies. They use both psychological and physical torture to get what they want.
Why don't you post your scene to the Share Your Writing thread? Then you can get feedback on how gratuitous it is.
Personally, I think the psychological and emotional response to torture is far more spine-tingling than the act of torture itself. So if you're going to create a scene like this, you need to get deep inside your tortured character's POV, IMO. I include some torture in my published suspense novel DESERT GUARDIAN, but it's not bloody or gory. The story features a suicide cult and there are scenes that reveal how they punish wayward followers and enemies. They use both psychological and physical torture to get what they want.
Why don't you post your scene to the Share Your Writing thread? Then you can get feedback on how gratuitous it is.
Maybe, but...
I'm reluctant to share an excerpt of the torture scene, because it takes place in the climax with two surprises. One involves the torture victim being an unexpected secondary character. The other involves one gory detail about the last part of the torture, which is meant to deliver an emotional punch for the main character. The MC, by the way, is tied up and witnessing the torture on a television screen in another room (victim has a video camera pointed to him, and the camera is connected to the TV, because it forces the MC to see the gore up close) before the MC is pulled into the room to be tortured himself. (Note: Torture is taking place in someone's basement.)
Based on this setup, what I could do is to have the MC focus on trying to free himself from the chair he's bound to. By having him look away from the screen, I won't have to tell exactly what the torturer is doing (except the last part, which is important), but the MC will still hear the screaming and the torturer's voice. I think this might tone down the details a lot, just enough to be tolerable.
I'm reluctant to share an excerpt of the torture scene, because it takes place in the climax with two surprises. One involves the torture victim being an unexpected secondary character. The other involves one gory detail about the last part of the torture, which is meant to deliver an emotional punch for the main character. The MC, by the way, is tied up and witnessing the torture on a television screen in another room (victim has a video camera pointed to him, and the camera is connected to the TV, because it forces the MC to see the gore up close) before the MC is pulled into the room to be tortured himself. (Note: Torture is taking place in someone's basement.)
Based on this setup, what I could do is to have the MC focus on trying to free himself from the chair he's bound to. By having him look away from the screen, I won't have to tell exactly what the torturer is doing (except the last part, which is important), but the MC will still hear the screaming and the torturer's voice. I think this might tone down the details a lot, just enough to be tolerable.
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I recently read THE ALIBI MAN by Tami Hoag and she had a torture scene toward the end that did an excellent job of portraying the villain's insensitive and casual attitude toward his victims. Very, very effective, and just slightly gory, but man, talk about creepy! I had a visceral reaction to this guy nonchalantly lopping off the fingers of the man he was interrogating. Hoag is brilliant at writing this kind of scene.
What you describe sounds a lot like the movie Saw, from what I've heard. I won't watch the movie myself. Ick. I don't know why you're reluctant to share your scene with AS because it's close to the climax. Does that make a difference? Feedback would be the same whether it happened on page one or page two hundred and one.
What you describe sounds a lot like the movie Saw, from what I've heard. I won't watch the movie myself. Ick. I don't know why you're reluctant to share your scene with AS because it's close to the climax. Does that make a difference? Feedback would be the same whether it happened on page one or page two hundred and one.
I think Karen did a great job of answering and giving suggestions.
Myself, my MC in my first novel gets tortured a few times. I wrote it in third limited so I describe the detail of what my MC feels, sees, hears, tastes etc. you must be honest without going over the top. If your MC would likely close his/her eyes during a scene, then write what he/she hears.
I suggest you include it all and when it comes time to send it out to your BETA readers, ask this particular question.
JJ
Myself, my MC in my first novel gets tortured a few times. I wrote it in third limited so I describe the detail of what my MC feels, sees, hears, tastes etc. you must be honest without going over the top. If your MC would likely close his/her eyes during a scene, then write what he/she hears.
I suggest you include it all and when it comes time to send it out to your BETA readers, ask this particular question.
JJ
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You might check out this book: http://www.tamarasilerjones.com/threads.html
It's a fantasy, but it does have torture scenes in it. I stopped reading at book two because it was simply too much for me.
It's a fantasy, but it does have torture scenes in it. I stopped reading at book two because it was simply too much for me.
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I've done a few of these, and it's not the level of gore and violence that were of concern.
The tough part is writing a convincing aftermath.
If the victim bounces back, cocky and cracking wise with no emotional trauma for what's been done to him, I tend to sneer and not read the next book from that writer.
I researched the aftereffects of torture--NOT for the squeamish--and the emotional damage can be as bad if not worse than the physical.
Many writers ignore that aspect, as it's inconvenient to the story. Sometimes it's appropriate, depending on the level of realism. It can range from Action Hero shrugs it off as just part of the job, to life-and plot-changing realism.
I put one of my MCs through the grinder--and he was none too stable to start with--and it took three books to get him balanced to the point of functioning normally again. His physical wounds healed just fine, but he was seriously messed up in the head, and I had to deal with that in an honest way or turn in my keyboard.
It was tough going, but the book was the better for it.
The tough part is writing a convincing aftermath.
If the victim bounces back, cocky and cracking wise with no emotional trauma for what's been done to him, I tend to sneer and not read the next book from that writer.
I researched the aftereffects of torture--NOT for the squeamish--and the emotional damage can be as bad if not worse than the physical.
Many writers ignore that aspect, as it's inconvenient to the story. Sometimes it's appropriate, depending on the level of realism. It can range from Action Hero shrugs it off as just part of the job, to life-and plot-changing realism.
I put one of my MCs through the grinder--and he was none too stable to start with--and it took three books to get him balanced to the point of functioning normally again. His physical wounds healed just fine, but he was seriously messed up in the head, and I had to deal with that in an honest way or turn in my keyboard.
It was tough going, but the book was the better for it.
In my book, my character is clearly traumatized and very different from the way he was on page one. If the emotional impact is important, then I think I'm set.
In "The English Patient" a German officer has a nurse cut Caravaggio's thumbs off. It is all part of war. The officer derives no pleasure from it, except that he is doing his job. Caravaggio is bitter, and learns to adapt. His hands are always bandaged up to hide the "flaw." Why was the torture scene included in the book? I feel that in one scene, the author clarified what the stakes were. The scene showed that the bad guys would stop at nothing. It showed that Caravaggio had no choice in becoming a double agent. I am sure the thumb amputation scene was not the only torture he was given while in the Nazi camp either but it was good "shorthand" to show weeks or maybe months of abuse and breaking a person's will.
I think it depends on the book, the reason for the torture. There is certainly nothing tasteful about it, and I feel you shouldn't go out of your way to dumb it down or make it pleasant.
I think it depends on the book, the reason for the torture. There is certainly nothing tasteful about it, and I feel you shouldn't go out of your way to dumb it down or make it pleasant.
I've written several of these scenes and agree that aftermath is the most important part- but how much is too much? I think whatever needs to be done in order to make your book the best it can be is the answer- as vague as that sounds- go with your gut and go with it- what you have written so far sounds very intriguing- I'd read it
in my first novel the villian was a violent serial killer. He would beat his women to death. Explaining his actions were not that difficult, but describing their mutilation was a bit harder. My killer was violent without weapons, he was just filled with rage. It played an important role in the climax of the book when him and the MC face. At this point in the book they both had a lot of rage in them. I would say try to be as descriptive as possible but not over doing it either.
Hearing and not seeing makes the imagination work harder--inventing things that may or may not be true.
A staggered plea for mercy 'Oh God! No!'
can be for anything from:
'I want my fav team to win',
'I'm passing a kidney stone the size of a melon',
'Don't tell me the dog just barfed on the ONLY copy of my MS', or
'my guts are slithering over my knees because someone's cut my stomach open.'
A staggered plea for mercy 'Oh God! No!'
can be for anything from:
'I want my fav team to win',
'I'm passing a kidney stone the size of a melon',
'Don't tell me the dog just barfed on the ONLY copy of my MS', or
'my guts are slithering over my knees because someone's cut my stomach open.'
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As a reader, I think describing the aftermath of the torture is more terrifying than actually describing the torture as it happens because I can fill in the blanks myself and, trust me, what the reader comes up with is likely more terrifying that if you wrote it out. Just like a bump in the night is scarier than seeing some monster. That's why, with my new novel, I'm describing the aftermath of the death rather than describing it as it happens.
WannabeWriter,
I sympathize with your concern. My novel The Coppesmith features a serial killer torturing and murdering evangelical ministers. In one scene, he whips a man to death with a cat-o'-nine-tails. The scene is critical to the story, as how he kills is significant to understanding what he's doing and why.
I plunged in and went for it. I was less concerned with the aftermath, because the victim doesn't survive, but it did effectively portray my killer as a consciousless SOB.
Is it over the top? Probably for CBA or ECBA. But they only represent a fraction of the Christian Market, and new publishers are cropping up willing to push the boundaries of realism. In the regular ABA market, the book is tame, comparatively speaking.
Write it in a way that produces a visceral emotional reaction in you, as opposed to, say, nausea. That's a more honest route, I think.
I sympathize with your concern. My novel The Coppesmith features a serial killer torturing and murdering evangelical ministers. In one scene, he whips a man to death with a cat-o'-nine-tails. The scene is critical to the story, as how he kills is significant to understanding what he's doing and why.
I plunged in and went for it. I was less concerned with the aftermath, because the victim doesn't survive, but it did effectively portray my killer as a consciousless SOB.
Is it over the top? Probably for CBA or ECBA. But they only represent a fraction of the Christian Market, and new publishers are cropping up willing to push the boundaries of realism. In the regular ABA market, the book is tame, comparatively speaking.
Write it in a way that produces a visceral emotional reaction in you, as opposed to, say, nausea. That's a more honest route, I think.
In my story, my MC is tied up and forced to watch another person get tortured by the villain. While the MC doesn't see the torture (he is watching it on a closed-circuit TV), he is agonized over how much pain the victim is suffering and how he must scramble to get free and maybe save him.
So it's more of emotional conflict than nausea. And that's what I'm going for.
So it's more of emotional conflict than nausea. And that's what I'm going for.
This is a tough one. On the one hand you want to make a point with the torture - usually about how terrible someone is. Or less often, how tough someone is. Or both.
My novel THE SILLA PROJECT has a torture scene that I've written and rewritten many times. The first cuts were very graphic. So graphic that I lost the reader. Ultimately I came to the conclusion that it was like the monster in a movie. It is much more scary if you don't show it. So I found that for my story, it works better to describe what is going to happen and fixate on the terror and anxiety of waiting. Then for the actual torture, skip the details. If it makes sense you might go into the mind of the tortured character and explore how they deal with it while it is happening. Then, when the torture is over, have the character deal with the results, in detail if appropriate.
I agree with Patrick Bateman on this one. Anticipation and flashbacks I think are much more terrifying than describing in detail what is happening. Too easy to over do it and lose that connection with the reader.
What did you ultimately decide to do?
-MM
My novel THE SILLA PROJECT has a torture scene that I've written and rewritten many times. The first cuts were very graphic. So graphic that I lost the reader. Ultimately I came to the conclusion that it was like the monster in a movie. It is much more scary if you don't show it. So I found that for my story, it works better to describe what is going to happen and fixate on the terror and anxiety of waiting. Then for the actual torture, skip the details. If it makes sense you might go into the mind of the tortured character and explore how they deal with it while it is happening. Then, when the torture is over, have the character deal with the results, in detail if appropriate.
I agree with Patrick Bateman on this one. Anticipation and flashbacks I think are much more terrifying than describing in detail what is happening. Too easy to over do it and lose that connection with the reader.
What did you ultimately decide to do?
-MM
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That's not a bad thought at all, MelancholyMan. It signifies the difference between suspense and gore.
Sometimes seeing the gore does work, but going with the suspense leaves it in the reader's imagination, which is a much more terrifying place to take them.
Sometimes seeing the gore does work, but going with the suspense leaves it in the reader's imagination, which is a much more terrifying place to take them.
I've just sent a manuscript to my agent that includes a torture scene. A female private investigator is tortured for information. It's a fairly complex scene, involving three characters, and ends with the torturer being killed by his victim.
I dont go into the aftermath much because the scene is the climax of the story. Hopefully, there'll be a second novel in the series centered on the PI, and I can deal with the aftermath there. She is the kind of person who would push that away as long as she could, anyway.
The scene itself is not bloody, but it is dorect and violent. She clearly suffers and screams and only barely holds on. It is fairly grim.
I dont go into the aftermath much because the scene is the climax of the story. Hopefully, there'll be a second novel in the series centered on the PI, and I can deal with the aftermath there. She is the kind of person who would push that away as long as she could, anyway.
The scene itself is not bloody, but it is dorect and violent. She clearly suffers and screams and only barely holds on. It is fairly grim.
Just a question that might reinvigorate this thread. Should men and women characters be tortured differently? If so, what should the difference be?
Yes. It depends on who is doing the torturing and why. But if it's a man, then the torture of a woman will often contain a sexualized element (really an expression of power, which is what torture is all about.). You could contain those elements with a male victim, but now you're entering the homoerotic arena, which might not be advantageous story-wise, if the torture is being conducted for information purposes, etc.
I suspect female torturers will express things very differently. I vaguely remember some references to this sort of thing when I was researching serial killers for The Coppersmith. I'd check out some resources from court tv or other websites addressing serial killers or other such source material to be sure how. John Douglas may have written about it in one of his autobiographies, but I can't recall specifically.