When "No" is a good thing.

[Nateskate]

Some of you were there, and some of you are headed there.

You had a work of fiction in hand, eager to send it out into the world for hundreds of eager publishers to fight over. You were quite certain you were the next Tom Clancey, or Tolkien, or whoever writes in your Genre. And then you get that "No".

Well, I'm fortunate in that I haven't had a lot of "no" responces. But I haven't had any "Yes" responces either.

Actually, the very first "no", wasn't actually a real "no". But it was a pivotal "no", nonetheless.

I was at a writter's conference, and had a manuscript with me, just in case I met any of the movers and shakers there. But I was entirely clueless to the process and the lessons you'll eventually learn along the way. Being eager, I wanted to get someone to look at my work. But unfortunately, there was only one day they were looking at writing samples, and that day was sold out before I could get a seat. So, I signed up for the rest of the conference.

I met a few movers and shakers, and clueless me asked someone if they'd take a look, and they just said, "No." Well, "That's not my Genre...or I'm not taking anyone new...etc. And by the end of the conference, I couldn't pay the janitor to look at my masterpiece. Well, if you have unrealitic expectations, you are still disappointed all the same. And I was somewhat sad no one even looked at a page of the thing.

Looking back, knowing what I know now. That was the best thing that could have ever happened to me. When I look back at the origional story, it was good, but since that time, I came back, retooled it, and it is a much better story. Come what may, I know the end product is so much better, it was a blessing in disguise that no one took that first draft.

"No" is such a terrible word when it feels like rejection. However, sometimes "No is actually an opporunity to take what is good and make it better, or what is better and make it great.

Who here feels that (and this can refer to a past experience) at some point a "No" was the best thing that could have ever happened to you. And to make it more fun, you can add other life experiences, "Boy, in retrospect, I'm glad she dumped me..."

Have fun: Share your experience and we'll all grow a little wiser.

[Julie Worth]

The problem is, you can’t polish a story in a vacuum. I can’t, anyway. I get lazy. Everything I write is fantastic, gifted and gilded, right up to the moment I’m sticking it in an envelope. I flip through the pages. Oh good Lord! Every page has glaring errors. Every paragraph has an awkward sentence. So I redo it and send it out. And again, a month later, the same thing happens with the same piece. The work is never perfect. It’s never done. But it’s only when it’s going out there, to be seen by people who are not idiots, that my whole brain goes into overdrive, pumped up by some parental/editorial adrenalin. You can’t go out there looking like that!

[Inspired]

I tried to get into a curriculum writing pool this last year. I was prepared to transition from writing as a hobby to working my butt off. My kids were both going to school full time, for the first time. I slaved over my writing samples.

I couldn't believe I didn't make it. The editor was very nice and said it was a tough group to get in to. I just wasn't quite ready.

A month later, I was asked to teach school full time. I haven't done that for almost 10 years and had another part time job already. And, school was starting in a few days. They really needed me. So, I took it.

I can't imagine how I would've handled a huge writing assignment, being a teacher again, and all my other obligations.

In the end, I realize that I need to slow down and learn to really write well, while making a decent amount of money (well, compared with my other job.) I'm going to teach for at least a few years, quit my part time job, and dig into writing again. When I'm truly ready, I'll go more full-time into writing. I'm not ready yet.

[Roger J Carlson]

I wrote my first novel in 10 weeks, then I sent it out. I received numerous "Not for us" rejections, then the following:

(hand-written across my cover letter to a Literary Agent)

Thx, but I'm afraid the story/characters feel too familiar. Also, to me, the writing is dull. I suggest several tricks on pp 2-5.
(Agent's initials)

Pages 2-5 did indeed have a quite a few mark-ups. Most were very pointed and some were acerbic. He didn't sugar-coat any of them.

I was angry and hurt. But after a while, I realized that it was all true. My book wasn't really finished. This started a 9 month re-write on my part that vastly improved the book. This agent did me a real favor. Afterwards, I wrote him and told him so.

[Nateskate]

The problem is, you can’t polish a story in a vacuum. I can’t, anyway. I get lazy. Everything I write is fantastic, gifted and gilded, right up to the moment I’m sticking it in an envelope. I flip through the pages. Oh good Lord! Every page has glaring errors. Every paragraph has an awkward sentence. So I redo it and send it out. And again, a month later, the same thing happens with the same piece. The work is never perfect. It’s never done. But it’s only when it’s going out there, to be seen by people who are not idiots, that my whole brain goes into overdrive, pumped up by some parental/editorial adrenalin. You can’t go out there looking like that!

I've gotten enough positive feedback to feel I'm on the right track. But like yourself, I tend to miss some obvious mistakes. My next step, when my tax return comes in, is to have a freelance editor go over my story before I send it out. I'm planning on going for some pretty competative agents, so I want to make sure book one is airtight before sending it out.

[Nateskate]

In the end, I realize that I need to slow down and learn to really write well, while making a decent amount of money (well, compared with my other job.) I'm going to teach for at least a few years, quit my part time job, and dig into writing again. When I'm truly ready, I'll go more full-time into writing. I'm not ready yet.

Sounds like a smart move. Hope it goes well for you.

[azbikergirl]

The first few "Nos" I ever got on my current novel WIP hurt like a mug. And enough of them convinced me that I simply couldn't write my way out of a soggy paper bag. I put the story away for twelve years. In 2002 I rewrote it. Then I rewrote it again. For the last 3 years, it has consumed me. The problem is that it's a cool story, but I don't know whether I have the skill as a writer to do it justice. I've joined several crit groups, but I find that the majority of the writers in them are no better than I am. (Some are quite good, however, and I heed their advice.)

Finally, I think my skill is almost there. "There enough" to try again, anyway. But if I get a "no" (or a whole slew of them), does it mean I'm not "there enough?" Or does it mean the story isn't as cool as everyone says? Or simply that it's not right for this agent or that editor? Or...?

[Mark Anderson]

I was angry and hurt. But after a while, I realized that it was all true. My book wasn't really finished. This started a 9 month re-write on my part that vastly improved the book. This agent did me a real favor. Afterwards, I wrote him and told him so.

Nicely done Roger. I suspect agents and editors seldom get thanked for rejections that nonetheless improve the work.

[maestrowork]

I'm very grateful for some of the early No's, especially when the agent actually took the time to tell me: "While the writing is excellent, the pacing is too slow in the beginning." After like 4 or 5 agents said the same time, I decided to trim my book. It was an eye-opener to me because my beta didn't tell me they were bothered by the pacing in the beginning, but in hindsight they did say it was "much slower" than the rest of the book. Now I know why. It really improved my story and a few months later, I got accepted.

[Nateskate]

The first few "Nos" I ever got on my current novel WIP hurt like a mug. And enough of them convinced me that I simply couldn't write my way out of a soggy paper bag. I put the story away for twelve years. In 2002 I rewrote it. Then I rewrote it again. For the last 3 years, it has consumed me. The problem is that it's a cool story, but I don't know whether I have the skill as a writer to do it justice. I've joined several crit groups, but I find that the majority of the writers in them are no better than I am. (Some are quite good, however, and I heed their advice.)

Finally, I think my skill is almost there. "There enough" to try again, anyway. But if I get a "no" (or a whole slew of them), does it mean I'm not "there enough?" Or does it mean the story isn't as cool as everyone says? Or simply that it's not right for this agent or that editor? Or...?

AZ, obviously, you aren't like those people who simply can't write. My guess is that except for a few really outstanding writers, the difference between someone who almost made it and did make it is really slim. In essence, the biggest difference is that the published writers (some) have learned the knack of writing a "hook." It's that little something that sets there book apart.

In every murder mystery someone gets killed, someone looks for a killer, and someone is eventually found. In every romance, someone falls in love. I think the key for us new writers, is that to be discovered, you have to come up with a hook. The more people pounding on agent's doors, the more we gotta say why ours is better.

If you ask me, most everything has already been written in some form or another.

[Lenora Rose]

I've joined several crit groups, but I find that the majority of the writers in them are no better than I am. (Some are quite good, however, and I heed their advice.)

Don't base your judgement of their critiques on their actual writing skill. People can often see things in others' work they miss in their own. (I have and I did) Most writers of rather poor prose would put away a book as badly written as their own -- they might not be able to tell you why, is all.

Finally, I think my skill is almost there. "There enough" to try again, anyway. But if I get a "no" (or a whole slew of them), does it mean I'm not "there enough?" Or does it mean the story isn't as cool as everyone says? Or simply that it's not right for this agent or that editor? Or...?

Assume it means it's good, but not right for this agent/editor unless *they* specify otherwise. More so if they bother to say, "It's well-written, but...". Even if it appears in a form letter of some kind. No editor who isn't suicidal will send that line to everyone that crosses their desk, so even if it is a form letter, it's probably a second or third tier form.


My trick, even in my teens, was to *expect* rejection. I'd get the envelope or the e-mail and say, "Oh, there's my rejection", open it, and be happy if they bothered to leave a personal note or said something nice about the story on the way to turning it down. I was never awfully hurt by a rejection, although I was a bit miffed when a blatant fantasy piece (Sorcerers and all) was rejected by a fantasy editor as "Obviously science fiction".

It hit the point where one time, I got the e-mail, said, "Oh, there's my rejection," and opened it. "Thank you for submitting X to Y magazine..." While I was doign my e-mail, I'd also been trying to fast-forward and rewind a tape to the right spot. So I glanced away to do that, glanced back, and my eye landed on the second paragraph, in the middle of some gabble about rights, and I went back to fast-forwarding...

... it wasn't until it dawned on me that they don't talk about rights in rejections that I stopped and read straight through. THEN I did the happy dance.:snoopy:

That's the way to do it. Expect refusal. You can ONLY be pleasantly surprised.

LRH

[karenranney]

I have come to expect that hideous moment when I drop something at Fed Ex. In a day my editor is going to call and ask, "What is this crap? We paid you a lot of money to produce something readable! This ain't it!"

Point 1 - Never feeling quite good enough is part of the author struggle. It makes you work harder with the next book.

Point 2 - Take the good from criticism and throw away the bad. The "bad" in this case is the little voice telling you you're pond scum. We all live with this little voice. The secret is muzzling it.

Point 3 - The same house that turns you down today will buy you tomorrow. I've always been amused by the time the head of my publishing company wanting to know why I published my first books with a competitor. I didn't tell this person that I was turned down repeatedly by editor after editor. The funny thing is that I went to Avon after they called me.

Point 4 - The secret to success in the publishing business? Here it is, free and without charge. Lean in, because I'm going to whisper it: persistence. Yep, that's it. For published and unpublished alike. Hey, I get my proposals rejected all the time. I just pick myself up, brush myself off, and go back into the bullring.

Oh, and it helps to always have manners and always be polite. Publishing is a relatively small business and people have long memories. Authors who think they're better than the rest of mankind are avoided like the plague. Who wants a problem? Also, the assistant you have today may be the Senior Editor you pitch to tomorrow. I've seen it happen.

Warm fuzzies!

Karen

[brokenfingers]

I can relate, Nate.

They say that whatever doesn’t kill you, makes you stronger. This is undoubtably true. Writers need to have the ability to shake themselves off, take a step back emotionally and examine their work and improve it.

Reading through these posts got me thinking though.…

We all know a writer needs to know the basic skills: spelling, grammar, story structure, dialogue, characterization etc.

A writer also needs to have a thick skin, perseverence, and some reasonable intelligence.

But it seems to me that a fiction writer needs something else. Besides all the aforementioned necessaries, there is another crucial ingredient needed to concoct a good story that people will want to read and come to love. I think there is another force absolutely necessary if a writer is going to get published.

I’m not talking about talent, that is uncontrollable and random - like luck. I don’t know what to call it exactly. Desire? Need? Fire? Passion?

I feel there has to be something inside a fiction writer pushing to get out, a story needing to be told. To a fiction writer, writing is like a pressure valve that releases the pent-up visions of our imagination.

Or is it maybe just the need to express ourselves to an unlistening world?

I have wondered at myself sometimes, and why I write. Why I persist in the face of great odds, other demands upon my time etc.

There are times for every writer when the road gets rough, or time has you in it’s vise-like grip, or a rejection letter arrives in the mail, or the outer world calls and beckons so invitingly, or whatever.

So why do we do it?

Because something drives us. Some flame burns within us and its fire kindles our writing, throws us back into the ring to fight another day.

But I wonder:

Is our writing just an attempt to harness that flame that burns within?

Or a need to share that light?

[Nateskate]

I have come to expect that hideous moment when I drop something at Fed Ex. In a day my editor is going to call and ask, "What is this crap? We paid you a lot of money to produce something readable! This ain't it!"

Point 1 - Never feeling quite good enough is part of the author struggle. It makes you work harder with the next book.

Point 2 - Take the good from criticism and throw away the bad. The "bad" in this case is the little voice telling you you're pond scum. We all live with this little voice. The secret is muzzling it.

Point 3 - The same house that turns you down today will buy you tomorrow. I've always been amused by the time the head of my publishing company wanting to know why I published my first books with a competitor. I didn't tell this person that I was turned down repeatedly by editor after editor. The funny thing is that I went to Avon after they called me.

Point 4 - The secret to success in the publishing business? Here it is, free and without charge. Lean in, because I'm going to whisper it: persistence. Yep, that's it. For published and unpublished alike. Hey, I get my proposals rejected all the time. I just pick myself up, brush myself off, and go back into the bullring.

Oh, and it helps to always have manners and always be polite. Publishing is a relatively small business and people have long memories. Authors who think they're better than the rest of mankind are avoided like the plague. Who wants a problem? Also, the assistant you have today may be the Senior Editor you pitch to tomorrow. I've seen it happen.

Warm fuzzies!

Karen

I appreciate your wisdom.

[Nateskate]

But it seems to me that a fiction writer needs something else. Besides all the aforementioned necessaries, there is another crucial ingredient needed to concoct a good story that people will want to read and come to love. I think there is another force absolutely necessary if a writer is going to get published.

I’m not talking about talent, that is uncontrollable and random - like luck. I don’t know what to call it exactly. Desire? Need? Fire? Passion?

Because something drives us. Some flame burns within us and its fire kindles our writing, throws us back into the ring to fight another day.

But I wonder:

Is our writing just an attempt to harness that flame that burns within?

Or a need to share that light?

Once a story is birthed, I feel it does burn like a fire. I'm not big on mapping every fine point, so I'm generally enjoying a story as it unfolds. In a sense, I get a big picture concept. And I go from there. However, I leave things open. I've changed bad guys to good guys, and good guys to bad guys in mid story, because they simply added more dimension that way.

Having that flexibility allows me to get excited about the story. I have this knack, and I'm certain others do as well. I'll put myself into that character's head, whether good or evil/ male female/adult child. So, when I begin to write their dialogue, I'm thinking in real time, "What would I say here?" Not "What would they say". And as you know, in a real conversation, half the time you don't know exactly what you are going to say until it's said. In fact, you may map out what you wanted to say, but said something entirely surprising to you.

So, the reader will be like someone listening in on a real conversation. They may be certain they can anticipate where this is going, then comes the curve. I know it, because I experience that same feeling when I'm writing it. A conviction emerges, or outrage, or a flipant sense of humor.

[Roger J Carlson]

Point 1 - Never feeling quite good enough is part of the author struggle. It makes you work harder with the next book.

Point 2 - Take the good from criticism and throw away the bad. The "bad" in this case is the little voice telling you you're pond scum. We all live with this little voice. The secret is muzzling it.

Point 3 - The same house that turns you down today will buy you tomorrow.

Point 4 - The secret to success in the publishing business? Here it is, free and without charge. Lean in, because I'm going to whisper it: persistence.

Warm fuzzies!

KarenThe final line here, puts me in mind of the tragic story of H. Beam Piper, a rising star in Science Fiction in the 50s and 60s. (One of Piper's best known works is "Little Fuzzy".) After several years of ill health and financial failure, Piper believed his career was over and in 1963, committed suicide. The tragedy is that at the time of his death, an editor was trying to reach him to buy one of his manuscripts.

Whenever I get too depressed over rejection, I try to think of Piper. If he had just held on a little longer! Perhaps my success is just around the corner -- if I just hold on.

The irony is that 40 years after Piper's death, this "failure" still has an active fan base, complete with fan websites and bulletin boards. How many "successful" authors can boast that?

[maestrowork]

I really like Point #3. Write a good book. They will come calling. Editors come and go all the time. What you can control is your writing.

Oh, yeah, and be persistent.

[Roger J Carlson]

They say that whatever doesn’t kill you, makes you stronger. On the other hand...
http://www.dilbert.com/comics/dilbert/archive/dilbert-20050310.html