As the PAMB turns!

It's a very good thing I came here. I have truly learned. It is amazing to me that you care so deeply. You care about people you have never met. I find it hard to understand, but what else is new?

You are correct about many things. One of you was insightful enough to say I was not a serious writer. He was so right. I am not a writer--serious or otherwise. I am a retired Accountant.

PA produced a book for me that I am very happy with. I hired an editor and did not have PA edit anything. The book is fine and anything wrong with it is my fault, not theirs. Their message board is no fun, but not in their contract.

As far as bookstores go, for some odd reason my book is in a Barnes and Noble bookstore. I had nothing to do with the placement of it there. There are six copies on their shelves.

For some reason, so far, Book authors seem to be a very difficult bunch of people to deal with. In this category I do not place professional writers. Professional writers seem to have a much more realistic view of what to expect.

Can you imagine the difficulty of deaing with thousands of people who wrote something and thought it was wonderful?

If you were to have only one percent of authors disgruntled--with PA that would be at least 230 authors.

230 authors can raise quite a ruckous.

My final point, one of you was wise and said I should help people with Parkinson's disease. I do that. The doctors have people call me and I visit and support them. I give them a copy of my book--beats handing them a rumpled up manuscript! To further add to your enjoyment, I was in the VM Hspital 6:30 am yesterday morning with a pre-surgery patient.

'Dick Stodghill does not talk mean to anyone and he is a wonderful writer. So is W Lane Rogers.

I just put this here so you could see the other side of the story. Not every author with PA is to be pitied or looked down upon.

Peace and joy to all,


Alice

Guess what? I am the "Duck lady!"

Welcome, Alice.

The PublishAmerica forum is only one of many, and we can get rather intense at times.
I hope you stay around and find something of interest on the other forums also.
Browse around for a while and check out what's here.
We're not all bad guys, really.

acrooker said:

It's a very good thing I came here. I have truly learned. It is amazing to me that you care so deeply. You care about people you have never met. I find it hard to understand, but what else is new?

You are correct about many things. One of you was insightful enough to say I was not a serious writer. He was so right. I am not a writer--serious or otherwise. I am a retired Accountant.

PA produced a book for me that I am very happy with. I hired an editor and did not have PA edit anything. The book is fine and anything wrong with it is my fault, not theirs. Their message board is no fun, but not in their contract.

As far as bookstores go, for some odd reason my book is in a Barnes and Noble bookstore. I had nothing to do with the placement of it there. There are six copies on their shelves.

For some reason, so far, Book authors seem to be a very difficult bunch of people to deal with. In this category I do not place professional writers. Professional writers seem to have a much more realistic view of what to expect.

Can you imagine the difficulty of deaing with thousands of people who wrote something and thought it was wonderful?

If you were to have only one percent of authors disgruntled--with PA that would be at least 230 authors.

230 authors can raise quite a ruckous.

My final point, one of you was wise and said I should help people with Parkinson's disease. I do that. The doctors have people call me and I visit and support them. I give them a copy of my book--beats handing them a rumpled up manuscript! To further add to your enjoyment, I was in the VM Hspital 6:30 am yesterday morning with a pre-surgery patient.

'Dick Stodghill does not talk mean to anyone and he is a wonderful writer. So is W Lane Rogers.

I just put this here so you could see the other side of the story. Not every author with PA is to be pitied or looked down upon.

Peace and joy to all,


Alice

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Hi and welcome to AW.

I'm glad PA has met your needs. Take a look round the rest of the forum, there's a lot there and it's generally more light-hearted than the PA section.

Dave

Welcome to the boards.

acrooker said:

Guess what? I am the "Duck lady!"

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I believe there was a post or two a few pages back that explained the reason for the nicknames, but it's not intended negatively.

I just put this here so you could see the other side of the story. Not every author with PA is to be pitied or looked down upon.

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As there are several current and many former PA authors here, I'm sure no one looks down upon them.

acrooker said:

PA produced a book for me that I am very happy with.

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Glad it's worked out well for you. I bet you could have gotten a better-quality book printed for you at a lower price elsewhere, but since my time machine isn't working and I can't take you back to do that, I'm glad you're happy with the books you have.

For some reason, so far, Book authors seem to be a very difficult bunch of people to deal with. In this category I do not place professional writers. Professional writers seem to have a much more realistic view of what to expect.

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I'm a little confused by the distinction you're making between "book authors" and "professional writers". Professional writers write books, and most commercially-published books are written by professional writers.

Dick Stodghill does not talk mean to anyone

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I don't think anyone said he did. What people have said is that the information he gives people is incorrect in lots of respects. And his tone can be dismissive and condescending at times, but I wouldn't call that "mean" and I don't think anyone else here would, either--I think we all agree he's trying to help. He just isn't actually being helpful by giving people lots of misinformation.

If you found that PublishAmerica was the printer that worked best for you, then that's great. More power to you!

However, I think a lot of people are seriously misled by PublishAmerica's marketing, and that PublishAmerica fosters and perpetuates unrealistic expectations by censoring its message board. And that's what people get upset about.

Welcome to AW, Alice. As Cat said, there's tons of stuff to check out here. Browse around for a bit.

Well, now we know you read this section. I can only hope that you read carefully because we're only trying to get PA to either clean up its act or shut down. Either will suffice. We're not after authors unless they're outright plagiarists like "Cancer Boy" who published a PA book that was almost entirely produced with material that wasn't written by him and that he didn't have permission to reproduce and failed to properly attribute.

DaveKuzminski said:

We're not after authors unless they're outright plagiarists like "Cancer Boy" who published a PA book that was almost entirely produced with material that wasn't written by him and that he didn't have permission to reproduce and failed to properly attribute.

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Is this a disjointed comment having no context, or is it intended as a misguided warning to Alice?

If it was intended as cleverness, it fails badly.

Hi Alice and !

I am sorry if I confused you. I was merely tying to point out that every issue no matter how thin has two sides.

Naturally, I would be very happy if my publisher saw fit to publish and promote only my book. It would be even better if the legislature would pass a law that everyone had to puchase and read and enjoy my book. That will not happen. I am glad.

Why? I would want to read something else myself. I know about my book.

There is a continuim of satisfaction. Some people are deeply dissatisfied and others are mildly dissatisfied. Some are satisfied. Some are overjoyed. It is their book, their experience. I don't care who you publish with. I don't care whether you love them or loathe them, why do you care so much about PA?

If you told me how terrible your publisher was,or is I would be sorry, but wouldn't try to run them out of business. Why? I have more important things to do.

Sorry,

Alice

While you are thinking of an answer, let me make my final observaton on this matter.
20,000 books are a lot of books, be glad PA did them You wouldn't want your publishers to have to wade through that quagmire.They might have their eyeballs burned right out of their sockets and not be able to read and accept your works.

Don't run them out of business--keep them there. If you don't love them, don't do business with them.

I love Toyota cars--just got a brand new Prius. I will leave the Hummers and everything else there for you to choose from.

Let the Buyer Beware!

Thanks for the kind welcome,


Alice

acrooker said:

I don't care whether you love them or loathe them, why do you care so much about PA?

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I wanted to comment on this, but before I do, I would like to welcome you to the Water Cooler, Alice. It's good to meet you, and I hope you'll look around at the rest of the forums. I know when you read these posts they can seem overly negative, and when I myself found out there was more to AbsoluteWrite than this particular part of the board, I found that I spent more and more time in those places.

The comment I wanted to make is this: you asked why we care so much about PA. I can't speak for the rest of the people here, but I care so much because I was one of their authors, and they basically did not do what they implied they would do. I care because PA hurts authors. I'm one of those that PA has hurt in the past, and I'm only now, some five years later, starting to recover from the devastation my experience with PA caused me.

I went to PA thinking they were going to give me the same treatment as an author with Tor, or Baen, or Random House, would have received. That was the implication I received from their website. And when PA told me not to listen to the naysayers, I naively believed their words more than the words of professionals, because I figured they would be honest with me.

As far as their exact wording goes, they did what they said they would do. But what they implied was that I would receive the kind of treatment Stephen King or Anne McCaffrey get from their publishers. I did not receive any such treatment. They implied that my book would be on bookstore shelves, which did happen in one bookstore in my local area ... because I personally had the bookstore owner place it there on consignment. This is not how the business really works. In the reality of things, publishers are responsible for marketing their authors' books, and the authors are responsible to write. PA basically mislead me and a lot of other writers, into thinking we would be given star treatment. Their carefully crafted wording made them sound like they were promising much more than they really were. That's how they hurt authors, and that's why I care so much about what PA does.

So basically, I worry about this company because I care about my fellow writers. I want their hard work to get the best darned representation they can get. I hate to see anyone go with a company that misleads writers -- especially naive writers like I was five years ago -- into thinking they're going to get something the company never intends to give.

Again, I hope you will look around the boards more. There's a lot more to this site than just the PublishAmerica-oriented forums. Don't be afraid to take a look around.

Welcome to AW Alice. I hope you'll enjoy all or at least as many of the forums that interest you here. There are many.

I have to agree with Sean here. If you'll look at my avatar, you'll see some of the reasons I am not content with my PA book.

Sean D. Schaffer said:

I wanted to comment on this, but before I do, I would like to welcome you to the Water Cooler, Alice. It's good to meet you, and I hope you'll look around at the rest of the forums. I know when you read these posts they can seem overly negative, and when I myself found out there was more to AbsoluteWrite than this particular part of the board, I found that I spent more and more time in those places.

The comment I wanted to make is this: you asked why we care so much about PA. I can't speak for the rest of the people here, but I care so much because I was one of their authors, and they basically did not do what they implied they would do. I care because PA hurts authors. I'm one of those that PA has hurt in the past, and I'm only now, some five years later, starting to recover from the devastation my experience with PA caused me.

I went to PA thinking they were going to give me the same treatment as an author with Tor, or Baen, or Random House, would have received. That was the implication I received from their website. And when PA told me not to listen to the naysayers, I naively believed their words more than the words of professionals, because I figured they would be honest with me.

As far as their exact wording goes, they did what they said they would do. But what they implied was that I would receive the kind of treatment Stephen King or Anne McCaffrey get from their publishers. I did not receive any such treatment. They implied that my book would be on bookstore shelves, which did happen in one bookstore in my local area ... because I personally had the bookstore owner place it there on consignment. This is not how the business really works. In the reality of things, publishers are responsible for marketing their authors' books, and the authors are responsible to write. PA basically mislead me and a lot of other writers, into thinking we would be given star treatment. Their carefully crafted wording made them sound like they were promising much more than they really were. That's how they hurt authors, and that's why I care so much about what PA does.

So basically, I worry about this company because I care about my fellow writers. I want their hard work to get the best darned representation they can get. I hate to see anyone go with a company that misleads writers -- especially naive writers like I was five years ago -- into thinking they're going to get something the company never intends to give.

Again, I hope you will look around the boards more. There's a lot more to this site than just the PublishAmerica-oriented forums. Don't be afraid to take a look around.

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Sean,

Thank you for your very reasonable answer. I am sorry you had such a terrible experience.

I expected what I got--a book. Well, actually, 5 free copies.

Expectations do play a major role in satisfaction or dissatisfaction. I hope you have a suitable publisher now.

Best regards,

Alice

acrooker said:

There is a continuim of satisfaction. Some people are deeply dissatisfied and others are mildly dissatisfied.

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The majority of these people are serious about a career in writing.

Some are satisfied. Some are overjoyed.

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The majority of people who state this are not serious about a writing career.

It is their book, their experience. I don't care who you publish with. I don't care whether you love them or loathe them, why do you care so much about PA?

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Because they claim to be something they are not and they hurt serious writers. They are a vanity press that derives its income from its authors.

If PA would put a halt to their false advertising, misleading statements, and come clean about their vanity press business model, threads like this would cease to exist.

If you told me how terrible your publisher was,or is I would be sorry, but wouldn't try to run them out of business. Why? I have more important things to do.

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If you knew of a clinic that gave out misleading and false information about PD would you be so inclined to not care? What if they stated they had a cure and they falsely led people to believe they could help them? Still wouldn't care?

Most of us are serious about writing and about our careers. We care about other writers who are serious about their careers. If there is a publisher or agent out there preying on writers, we care and we warn them.

PA preys on writers. Therefore, we warn serious writers about PA.

acrooker said:

I love Toyota cars--just got a brand new Prius. I will leave the Hummers and everything else there for you to choose from.

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Toyota doesn't claim to be a Hummer.

PA claims to be a "traditional" publishing company when they are in fact a vanity press.

The PA threads are just a small part of what AW offers writers in all stages of their careers. I hope you will spend time researching what AW is really all about, as it doesn’t have the greatest of reputations on the PAMB.

Welcome to the cooler.

brianm said:

The majority of these people are serious about a career in writing.



The majority of people who state this are not serious about a writing career.



Because they claim to be something they are not and they hurt serious writers. They are a vanity press that derives its income from its authors.

If PA would put a halt to their false advertising, misleading statements, and come clean about their vanity press business model, threads like this would cease to exist.



If you knew of a clinic that gave out misleading and false information about PD would you be so inclined to not care? What if they stated they had a cure and they falsely led people to believe they could help them? Still wouldn't care?

Most of us are serious about writing and about our careers. We care about other writers who are serious about their careers. If there is a publisher or agent out there preying on writers, we care and we warn them.

PA preys on writers. Therefore, we warn serious writers about PA.



Toyota doesn't claim to be a Hummer.

PA claims to be a "traditional" publishing company when they are in fact a vanity press.

The PA threads are just a small part of what AW offers writers in all stages of their careers. I hope you will spend time researching what AW is really all about, as it doesn’t have the greatest of reputations on the PAMB.

Welcome to the cooler.

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Brian,

I am overjoyed to see you. I am not promoting PA or telling you to go there.

You stated the obvious a few pages back--I am not a serious writer.

I am a very grateful happy person. Glad to be alive. After you have had your brain drilled into with what seems to be a Black and Decker drill, your publisher is the least of your concerns.

I don't find much to disagree with you about other than a Prius and a Hummer both claim to be vehicles. Did PA say it was Random House? It isn't!

PA fills a niche. I am old, 60 years old.
Alot of PA 's authors are old, they wanted to write a book--they did it.

Would I advise a young aspiring writer to go with them?
No--never!


Alice

acrooker said:

Brian,

Would I advise a young aspiring writer to go with them?
No--never!


Alice

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How about an older aspiring writer?

Welcome!

Hi Alice, and welcome to the board1 I hope you enjoy your stay here.

acrooker said:

While you are thinking of an answer, let me make my final observaton on this matter.
20,000 books are a lot of books, be glad PA did them You wouldn't want your publishers to have to wade through that quagmire.They might have their eyeballs burned right out of their sockets and not be able to read and accept your works.

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Oh, I wouldn't worry about that, Alice, for two reasons.

1. PA has published many books of poetry. Most publishers and agents don't handle poetry. Therefore, they wouldn't "wade through that quagmire" at all - the moment they realized someone had submitted poetry to them, they'd send a form rejection.

2. Editors and agents don't need to read an entire book to know that it's not working for them. That's why they don't often ask for fulls (or even partials, for that matter). So they wouldn't get their eyeballs burned out of their sockets.

In other words, if PA didn't exist, I doubt this would place any inordinate strain on legitimate publishers or literary agents.

Don't run them out of business--keep them there. If you don't love them, don't do business with them.

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I would have no problem with keeping PA there if it was honest about what it offered its customers (and by that, I mean its authors).

I don't love PA, and therefore I want to help people who haven't yet been taken in by its claims, or people who have published with PA but who have doubts and questions about it.

Would I advise a young aspiring writer to go with them?
No--never!

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That's great, but there may be young aspiring writers who submitted books to PA and who are now posting on the message board, confused about why their books are not carried in stores or why it's so difficult to make sales or why they got such a low royalty check.

If they ask such questions on the public board, they will be told that they should be grateful to PA and to promote, promote, promote. I don't think this is good for any aspiring writer's career, whether that writer is young or old.

acrooker said:

I hired an editor and did not have PA edit anything. The book is fine and anything wrong with it is my fault, not theirs.

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Another PA author said the same thing to me once. I replied that legitimate publishers check their books carefully for errors, because those books reflect on their reputation among readers. PA does not edit for mistakes, because its primary customers are its own authors (not the reading public). That makes it a vanity press. That makes it not a good choice for the majority of authors.

So for an author to say that all the errors in their book are their own fault, rather than PA's, unfortunately does not exonerate PA.

Dick Stodghill does not talk mean to anyone

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I could produce several quotes where Dick Stodghill gave people highly inaccurate information about the publishing industry. As ICE said, he can also be dismissive and condescending. Whether he is a wonderful writer or not, he is often wrong when it comes to agents and publishing.

Alice, you know how I feel.

Professional authors know what to expect from a publisher. PA doesn't give it to them. YOU hired an editor - that's not how commercial publishing works. In commercial publishing, the author works with an editor hired by the publishing company. In some cases several. Most professional authors I know understand they aren't going to have to sell their own books either, at least not the majority. Professional authors collect money from a publisher, they don't give it to them.

I'm glad you're happy, and I know you're not a 'serious writer'. You had a little hobby book and had a good time putting it out. Good for you. I think PA has become a little more revealing on its website - like the 'lower acceptance threshold' line - you just have to be able to translate what they say vs. what they mean. But a few years back, it was very different.

And you have six copies in one B&N - that's good for a PA book. But what if you had six copies in EVERY B&N?

W. Lane Rogers said:

Is this a disjointed comment having no context, or is it intended as a misguided warning to Alice?

If it was intended as cleverness, it fails badly.

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The statement about Cancer Boy was neither a warning nor an attempt at cleverness, just stating the facts.

We don't see PA authors as the enemy. We try to treat them fairly and with respect. The exception was Cancer Boy. If you search for Cancer Boy, you'll see what Dave meant. That book was blantant plagerism and tried to portray suppliments as a cure for cancer.

I won't go into my own history with cancer, other to say that cancer makes people desperate and it is evil to prey upon their desperation. Eventually, PA pulled his book. A real publisher would never have published such rubbish.

But he was the exception. That was Dave's point.

At the end of the day, PA is not a good choice for people who desire more than their immediate circle to read their book. Plain and simple. If you're going to all the trouble to hire an editor, you could produce the book yourself through Lulu (they have terrific tutorials for getting the book formatted correctly), and spend a bit of coin to purchase the distribution package.

You'd get the same thing you get from PA - a listing on Amazon and in Ingrams, and the books would be printed by LSI, which is who PA used to use, at least if they're actually using their own press now. You'd be in complete control - no contract, and you set your own royalty. I had a friend who did this, and he got a signing in his local Borders. There was no problem ordering or getting the books either, which some PA authors have when they try to have signings - the books don't show up or PA gives the store the runaround.

Far less hassle that way, IMO, and probably more return for your effort than you'd get from PA. I personally uploaded a project to Lulu yesterday (personal use type of thing, not for sale) and it was a snap. If you want the 'prestige' that comes with having a publisher's name (forgive me if I snort) on the book, make one up and call that your publishing company.

And I happen to work for a cancer registry. I handle approximately 28,000 cases each year and I've been here almost seven years. I've had to personally notify almost 56,000 individuals about their cancer and that included some whose doctors failed to even inform them they had it. The worst instance I faced was telling a husband and wife at the same time that they both had cancer. So, you think I'm going to like someone whose work plagiarizes cancer studies and promises a cure that the author can't deliver and you're worried that I'm threatening someone? I'll let you reach your own answer.