Look at this!

Nateskate · Mar 14, 2008

Okay, once you've had a few things published, people expect you know something. New writers want to show you their wares and get your feedback. This is in no way a criticism, because I was the same way. - Gak! I am mortified by some things I showed others.

But realistically, considering the fact we can't even get through a few pages of 80 percent of the stuff in Barnes and Nobels- even in our preferred genre, I'm just wondering how this impacts you, and how you deal with it? Patience, sympathy, anger... laughs

IceCreamEmpress · Mar 14, 2008

I never read friends' work. Largely because I do do some editing and book-doctoring for $$$ and my friends are kind enough not to ask me to work for them for free.

But if you don't have that excuse, I think saying something like "Most writers really don't find critiques from friends very helpful, so I don't want to waste your time by giving you an unhelpful critique" might work.

Also, referring them to online critique groups (the SYW board here, critters.org, etc.) and encouraging them to find a writers' group might be helpful?

If you get Poets and Writers magazine, passing those on to interested friends so they can look at conference listings, anthology calls, and so forth is a great way to encourage.

jclarkdawe · Mar 14, 2008

I just show them the first ten or so pages from some of the worse manuscripts I've seen where my comments exceed the writers (by about a 3 to 1 margin or worse) and tell them to think about it. For some reason, that solves the problem.

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe

Mythica · Mar 14, 2008

I would imagine that would be really irritating. I have a couple friends who are published authors and have been published for many years, but I would never ask them to read any of my stuff. Someone I've trained horses with on and off for many years is very good friends with Philippa at Sterling Lord Literistic, and he kept telling me that he could get her to look at my manuscript. But, no, man. 1. my genre isn't her thing. 2. I don't want to put her in an uncomfortable situation and waste her time.

Maybe it's a pride thing, I dunno. It just feels rude as heck to me. But I'd rather do it the hard way and not waste people's time. I much prefer harassing my mom and boyfriend to read my stuff. LOL

johnzakour · Mar 14, 2008

People ask me all the time, it's part of the gig. I just say "sure, if you want I'll read it, but remember I'm just a bozo too. So what I say doesn't carry a lot of weight."

jz

Maryn · Mar 14, 2008

Yeah, but you're our bozo!

Toothpaste · Mar 14, 2008

I tell them the truth. "I get asked to read a lot of MSs and I simply don't have the time to do that and my own work. I'm sorry."

No one has complained yet.

Though there are one or two really good friends of mine who I have been writing with for forever whose stuff I have no issues reading. But I mean, we've been reading each others' stuff for years, so that doesn't really count.

astonwest · Mar 14, 2008

After the first time, my personal critiques usually weed out the writers who don't have thick skins.

Nateskate · Mar 15, 2008

johnzakour said:
People ask me all the time, it's part of the gig. I just say "sure, if you want I'll read it, but remember I'm just a bozo too. So what I say doesn't carry a lot of weight."

jz

Lol- John, how often have you dealt with this?

Nateskate · Mar 15, 2008

Toothpaste said:
I tell them the truth. "I get asked to read a lot of MSs and I simply don't have the time to do that and my own work. I'm sorry."

No one has complained yet.

Though there are one or two really good friends of mine who I have been writing with for forever whose stuff I have no issues reading. But I mean, we've been reading each others' stuff for years, so that doesn't really count.

I like your approach.

Nateskate · Mar 15, 2008

Re-phrasing

I'm going to phrase this somewhat differently, as a theoretical- though it's not really theoretical. How do you handle friends who learn you're a writer, or relatives, people you have some kind of relationship with???

It's one thing if it's a stranger. But with someone who is somehow connected to your life, is it different?

Do you grin and bear it- or tactfully decline? It's not really the reading that becomes the problem- it's that realistically, these are people who have high hopes, but their works are very rough. And then the issue is whether you are brutally honest or gracious in trying to see the positives?

ishtar'sgate · Mar 15, 2008

I used to have them send me a few chapters but then it got to be a bit uncomfortable when my feedback wasn't what I knew they wanted to hear. Decidedly not fun. Besides, I'm no expert. I know how to write what I write but my style is my own, my genre preferences may not be theirs and I simply may not appreciate the same things they do or an agent or editor would. Now I'd rather read a few paragraphs on the spot and talk to them about their opening. I don't feel qualified to do anything more than that. They're happy and I'm off the hook.
Linnea

Shweta · Mar 15, 2008

Almost everybody in my family is an engineer. So I don't have this problem.

The other way though... I have friends who are much-more-published writers than me, including established pros. And I'm always delighted to read their work, because I'm their little fangirl

But even though we are writer-friends, the (very-few) times I've asked one of them for feedback, it was awkward because I didn't want to impose on them.

In fact, we once needed third-party intervention from her significant other. "Pamela wants to read the story you sent me, may I pass it on?" And I hadn't sent it to her because I knew you don't do that to pros, and she didn't want to ask me for it because I had chosen to send it to her sweetie and not to her...

Apparently too much politeness can tie people in knots!

JBI · Mar 15, 2008

From the people I know who have asked me to look at their work, only a few of them asked twice.

icerose · Mar 16, 2008

I've been asked a couple of times and I oblige by taking a look, I ask upfront if they're looking for feedback or just want to share then respond accordingly.

StoryG27 · Mar 16, 2008

My sister asked me to read the first chapter of a novel she was writing. I tried to tell her no because she needed to finish before beginning any type of editing. But she really wanted me to look at just the first five pages. Looking back, I think she just wanted to share it with me. I think she was excited. I did the edit she asked for and that was the dumbest thing I could have done. I think she was so discouraged by all the flaws I found that she gave up on the book. I should have just said, "I see a few things that need to be worked on, but I love the passion you are pouring into it. Please pick up SuchandSuch book to help you fine tune your writing." Luckily my family doesn't let little stuff like this come between us, but I really wish I had handled it differently.

It's hard for me to say no to my closest friends and family, but I don't think I'll ever agree to do book doctoring or line edits for them ever again. I'll read their work, or at least samples of it, and just offer suggestions not specifics.

big_black_bird · Mar 16, 2008

People will ask even if you haven't gotten published.

I just point out that I'm a cast-iron beast (Complete with sucking black tentacles) when I'm not editing. When I am working over someone else's stuff, I am a gibbering, red-pen wielding maniac.

Then they run away.

donroc · Mar 16, 2008

Except for my closest friends, I tell those who ask that my lawyer advises against my reading anyone's work for fear of being sued for plagiarism.

Nateskate · Mar 16, 2008

storygirl said:
My sister asked me to read the first chapter of a novel she was writing. I tried to tell her no because she needed to finish before beginning any type of editing. But she really wanted me to look at just the first five pages. Looking back, I think she just wanted to share it with me. I think she was excited. I did the edit she asked for and that was the dumbest thing I could have done. I think she was so discouraged by all the flaws I found that she gave up on the book. I should have just said, "I see a few things that need to be worked on, but I love the passion you are pouring into it. Please pick up SuchandSuch book to help you fine tune your writing." Luckily my family doesn't let little stuff like this come between us, but I really wish I had handled it differently.

It's hard for me to say no to my closest friends and family, but I don't think I'll ever agree to do book doctoring or line edits for them ever again. I'll read their work, or at least samples of it, and just offer suggestions not specifics.

Storygirl, I think you really capture the dilema well. Sometimes a novice writer is just raw. It doesn't mean they don't have potential. But there's that eager beaver quality, that they expect you're going to post it on your fridge and send it to your publisher.

That's when we find ourselves in an awkward position. Gracious comments that are sometimes deceptive, vs brutal honesty which can flay a person's confidence.

This question has no easy answer. Perhaps some have very stiff boundaries, others have difficulty with that. But at some point, we have to develope an approach that works for us, or we find ourselves in a can't-win situation, and somebody feels slighted, or hurt.

Nateskate · Mar 16, 2008

donroc said:
Except for my closest friends, I tell those who ask that my lawyer advises against my reading anyone's work for fear of being sued for plagiarism.

Now there's an idea.

astonwest · Mar 16, 2008

Shweta said:
Almost everybody in my family is an engineer. So I don't have this problem.

Hey, now!!!

Shweta · Mar 16, 2008

astonwest said:
Hey, now!!!

It's true! My dad got me to read through some of his book. On effective maintenance for oil plants, and risk management (it's a good book). But uh... nobody else in my family really writes.

Hillary · Mar 16, 2008

donroc said:
Except for my closest friends, I tell those who ask that my lawyer advises against my reading anyone's work for fear of being sued for plagiarism.

My mother uses that, only she says her agent won't let her read manuscripts that he hasn't approved. Unless, of course, a writer is at a conference and had paid entrance to one of her workshops!

But even then, she has to be really really really clear that she cannot blurb work without her agent's approval. She once told a woman something kind during a workshop, and then suffered through an extensive email exchange with the woman, who had decided she could use my mother's words as a blurb on her self-published book! My mother got so frustrated trying to kindly explain... She finally employed me to email the woman and make sure she understood she could, in no way, reproduce anything she heard or thought she heard.

Moral of the story? Say something nasty and it'll come back to bite you in the ass. And same goes for saying something nice. *sigh*

Nateskate · Mar 17, 2008

Hillary said:
My mother uses that, only she says her agent won't let her read manuscripts that he hasn't approved. Unless, of course, a writer is at a conference and had paid entrance to one of her workshops!

But even then, she has to be really really really clear that she cannot blurb work without her agent's approval. She once told a woman something kind during a workshop, and then suffered through an extensive email exchange with the woman, who had decided she could use my mother's words as a blurb on her self-published book! My mother got so frustrated trying to kindly explain... She finally employed me to email the woman and make sure she understood she could, in no way, reproduce anything she heard or thought she heard.

Moral of the story? Say something nasty and it'll come back to bite you in the ass. And same goes for saying something nice. *sigh*

These are things I never even thought about.

stormie · Apr 8, 2008

Resurrecting this thread. *Waves to Nate*

I'm a former teacher. Taught second grade for nine years. I've had a few now-adult students ask me to look at their manuscript or show it to my (then) agent or schlepp it to the city when I go. (Yeah, right. Publishers love that.) The first time this happened, I did offer to look over the PB. She had a relative draw the pictures to go with her story. I gave her feedback, starting with positive comments then went into a few ways the story could be improved. Heck, it's the teacher in me. Unfortunately, she wasn't asking to be taught, she just wanted approval. But if I gave approval, it would have done her an injustice. Plus she was on her way to submit the book as is, a dummy (laid out in 32 pages, illustration matching words on each page). Publishers don't want that. I hated to see potential talent shot down. She had been one of my best pupils. I say unfortunately because she put the book aside and that was a few years ago. She did have promise. As for the others, I now direct them here or to the Writer's Market book. They can take it from there.

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