Age discrimination in Hollywood

[Crosshatcher]

I've been a member a short time and apologize if this is a repeat of an earlier thread.

I got the writing bug late in life at age 38. I've had some minor success with short stories in obscure magazines. Then came the point where I thought I could write screenplays.

I've written a few feature length scripts, some MOTW and a few half hour shows. I even had a long phone interview with one of the producers of the New Twilight Zone that aired for one season a couple years ago. They were willing to look over some of my scripts if they were going to be picked up for a second season.

That said I've put aside any chances of selling scripts to Hollywood because of their policy of ignoring writers over 50 which I am. Even successful writers of a few decades ago are being ignored because the powers that be have perceived that only young writers know what movie goers want to see.

I'd like to know what anyone here thinks of this policy. Sure, I could lie about my age or have a younger person pitch for me but I've read in enough books that if you lie to Hollywood about anything and are caught you're pretty much blackballed.

[NikeeGoddess]

when one reads your script they won't know how old you are unless you tell them. and why would you do that in a script? if they love your script then they don't care how old you are.

it is harder to sell a script about older people thou - less audience = less money at the box office. and they need an a-list actor to pull off a story starring the elderly.

however, writing for tv is a different matter. to get a job writing for tv involves selling yourself more than selling a script b/c actually they won't buy a script from you. so that's where the age descrimination comes in. you have to sell yourself.

also age is not always a number. a seasoned writer can be young and a newbie can be old. it depends on when you started writing and how much you've learned of the craft over the years.

[Joe Calabrese]

Many active and successful writers are older. Mamet (48), Logan (46), Goldman (64), Haggis (51) and the list goes on.

A producer doesn't care if you are a 110, days away from getting on life support and one foot on the banana peel of fate. If you have a great script that they love and can afford, they will option and/or buy it. If you die before production, they'll get another writer to jump in.

Worry about writing great stories that are ageless and worry less about your age.

Be passionate and animated in your pitches and let them think you just took your dose of gerotol or viagra.

[kojled]

age is an issue for tv writers. does not matter for movie writers. writer of last spiderman is seventy something. the industry does not care about your age, gender, education, or what planet you come from. only care about words on page


z

[Crosshatcher]

Thanks for the pep talk. It really helps.

I'll have to get out some of my notes and see what I can come up with.

[vig]

i would avoid telling them that your favorite batman is adam west and you were 15 in you jammies wishing you could be the boywonder.

vig

[firehorse]

...if you lie to Hollywood about anything and are caught you're pretty much blackballed. Last night, I was watching Jake in Progress and thinking that one of the main things I dislike about LA and Hollywood is that everybody lies. I have trust issues.

It is harder to sell a script about older people thou - less audience = less money at the box office. and they need an a-list actor to pull off a story starring the elderly. True, but I have a theory (that and $2.50 will get me on the subway): even though youth is always Hollywood's favorite audience, baby boomers are a huge percentage of the population (I say "huge" because I don't know thet exact number), and I think older characters will begin to play better with audiences as boomers want to see themselves reflected.

That said, I don't want to make assumptions that Crosshatcher is necessarily writing about older people. It sounds like you know the material, and in particular, the storylines the New Twilight Zone a) has already done and b) is interested in doing.

I understand your fear: there was a line in a Sex and the City episode ,set in LA, in which a bulimic late-30s male writer revealed, "Nobody's going to hire a fat story editor." That line summed up why I never moved to LA.

Honestly, though, it sounds like you're on the right track. Good luck - keep us posted!

Many active and successful writers are older. Mamet (48), Logan (46), Goldman (64), Haggis (51) and the list goes on. Oh, man. 46 is 'older'? I mean, I know it's not young, but now that I'm closer to it (38), it seems... (where's the smiley of The Scream when you need it?!)

-Sarah

[Crosshatcher]

i would avoid telling them that your favorite batman is adam west and you were 15 in you jammies wishing you could be the boywonder.

vig

Actually, I was 14 :poke:

[Joe Calabrese]

I just hit 40 and I am still creative and vibrant. 40 is the new 30...

[Liam Jackson]

Finished my first novel at age 47.** Found my agent 4 months later, at age 48. (Second agent I queried.) Sold my first novel 3 weeks shy of 49. To date, neither my agent, nor the publishers have asked my age.

Perhaps Hollywood takes a different approach with regard to a writers age. However, in such a competitive market, I would think they'd embrace a project written by an Egyption mummy if they thouhgt it would turn a profit at the box office.

[firehorse]

I realized after my last post that Jake in Progress is set in NYC. So forget the LA thing; no wonder I left NYC.

At 25, I was doing a little TV writing and turning down some opportunities (though mainly I was in the process of being rejected by every late-night show in NYC). I had some powerful people on my side, and I completely took it (and them) for granted. I'm still glad I moved to Toronto instead of LA, but it never even occurred to me that someday I'd be too old (or seen that way) to try for TV again.

Hmm... a gallon of Botox, a month or six of liposuction, and maybe I could write for Desperate Housewives... http://pages.prodigy.net/indianahawkeye/newpage22/14.gif

Joe - I know 40 is the new 30, but I swear, we're going to keep saying that until it's "Hey, dead is the new alive!" ;)

Liam's sig reminds me of Robin Williams' bit at the Oscars re: Elmer Fudd doing Stanley Kowalski: "Stewwwwwwaaaaaaa!!"

Wow. That translated to text really poorly.

-Sarah

[Optimus]

The "age discrimination" card is almost always played by a wannabe feature screenwriter who either has little to no faith in his/her abilities or actually is a bad writer wanting to give him/herself an excuse for failure other than admitting that they suck.

If you write a great, marketable script, no one will care what your age is because your writing rocks.

If you write a great big piece of crap, no one will care what your age is because your writing sucks.

[vig]

"True, but I have a theory (that and $2.50 will get me on the subway): even though youth is always Hollywood's favorite audience, baby boomers are a huge percentage of the population (I say "huge" because I don't know thet exact number), and I think older characters will begin to play better with audiences as boomers want to see themselves reflected." FH

that's a very good point and in the next five years and beyond i'm wondering how that will play out. 18-25 is the movie demographics that they try to hit, but you can bank on it if the baby boomer demographic starts taking an even 5% swing away from the 18-25 year olds you can say with certainty you'll start getting AS GOOD AS IT GETS as opposed to TORQUE in the fight between what movie gets greenlit.

a perfect example of this is the quandry i'm sure kevin smith is going through as his age and material are in that nebulous, purgatory state where he might be gettting, "is he to old to write that, and to young and foolish to write.....

hollywood is an industry and if you don't think that thought is on every computer screen of every studio in town. it may be in a dark room at the bottom of the building with some geek stareing at the screen, but it's there.

vg

[Lady Brick]

At the moment, I would be happy if there was a bias towards younger screenwriters, but that's just because I'm just about to turn 25 :cool: Aside from a good solid script, which I have, I need all the help I can get.

[JustinoXXV]

"that's a very good point and in the next five years and beyond i'm wondering how that will play out. 18-25 is the movie demographics that they try to hit, but you can bank on it if the baby boomer demographic starts taking an even 5% swing away from the 18-25 year olds you can say with certainty you'll start getting AS GOOD AS IT GETS as opposed to TORQUE in the fight between what movie gets greenlit."

Older people, particularly established married couples with families, do not go out as much as younger people. Because young people spend more money going out, movies will continue to be biased towards a younger audience.

And let's face the fact, we grow less attractive as we grow older. Wrinkles, grey and then white hair, etc all start setting in.

When people want to see something attractive, they want to see either a stud man or a hot babe in bikinis. Who would want to see a 70 year old in sexy lingerie? If given a choice, a lot of 70 years olds would rather look at younger people as opposed to people their own age. So the youth obsessed aspects of entertainment will not disappear.

[IWrite]

This is an interesting, not to mention touchy subject.

While it is very true that age discrimination is much more prevalent in television (where writers are on staff as opposed to working on spec), to think that there is no discrimination in the film world would be a little naieve.

Yes there are many writers that are thriving in their 50's and 60's, but the vast majority of them established themselves in the field in their 20's and 30's. They have proven track records, they've made money for producers and the studios.

It's not so cut and dried when it comes to breaking in when you are older.

A spec script by a new writer will stand on it's own merits - both quality and commercial viability. But agents are assessing overall career potential. The vast majority of spec script don't sell, even when the writers are signed by agents or managers. Therefore agents want to sign clients who have a viable career. A big piece of the writing pie is eaten up by writer for hire gigs - either to create an original script from an idea a producer has, to do adpatations or to do rewrites of weak specs. Fair or not, age can be one roadblock to getting these gigs.

On the other hand, if you are a truly talented writer - age will not get in your way. I know one writer who went to film school in her 40's. Signed with CAA in her 50's and did writer for hire work for several studios and the major networks well into her 60's. But she was the exception, not the rule - an extraordinary writer.

I think the best thing to do is to avoid making age an issue - by simply not bringing it up in your query. Let your writing speak for itself - and deal with the age issue only when it becomes impossible to avoid it. Just be advised - that your age may in fact deter some agents from signing you. Perhaps targeting agents that have some older clients on their roster may be a good idea, as those agents know from experience that they can make money from older clients.

[JustinoXXV]

"I think the best thing to do is to avoid making age an issue - by simply not bringing it up in your query. Let your writing speak for itself - and deal with the age issue only when it becomes impossible to avoid it. Just be advised - that your age may in fact deter some agents from signing you. Perhaps targeting agents that have some older clients on their roster may be a good idea, as those agents know from experience that they can make money from older clients."

A problem with that is people do break in by having close personal connections to people in the industry. Being older may hurt your chances when you network. Don't get me wrong, you shouldn't give up. But I'd say that general queries don't do it.

Of all the articles I've read by successful screenwriters, I've not read one by someone who broke in via a query.

James White, the screenwriter of Ray, was good friends with the producer who hired him. Nia Vardolos put on a stage show that attracted industry attention. Spike Lee produced, wrote, and directed his own movies. Other people have worked in the industry in various capacities and have formed relationships with the right people.

If you haven't formed the write relationships with the right people, there's almost no way. Projects can be moved along further if you're able to put your script in the hands of an interested director or a named actor who likes one of the major characters you've written.

[IWrite]

Justino -

While I agree that networking is the preferred and easiest way to make it in this business - I think that you are far too fast to dismiss queries as a way in.

The fact is that the vast majority of aspiring writers do not have connections in the business. While the chances of success are very slim - that does not mean they do not exist.

I know for a fact they do exist. As a development executive I have requested scripts from unsolicited queries and writers who pitch at pitch fests. While I admit I reject the vast majority I also reject most of the scripts submitted by agents. I reject because the pitches suck, the scripts suck or they are not commercially viable or do not fit into our production slate. You need to fall in love with project, be totally passionate about it in order to commit to going forward with it. But a good query for a good script will get my attention and get read and if all the planets are alligned, get made. Unfortunately good pitches, not to mention good scripts are few and far between.

As a writer I know blind querying can work as well. When my agent retired, I submitted a blind query to a producer I knew was looking for projects in my genre. No one that I know knew the producer - so I couldn't use my network to get to him (connections do not give you access to every damn person in the business). He loved the query, loved the script and optioned it. It looks like the sale will go through on that project.

Connections are great - but there are a lot of variables involved in getting a script into production. I have contacts at many prod cos and studios - but not every prod co. I have connections at (including the one I work at) would be interested in my projects. The key is to find those producers / agents who are passionate about what you do. And while connections can be very helpful - they are not required. Write a great script, a great logline, a great query. Target those who you feel will relate to what you do. Prepare yourself for rejection and go for it.

[zeprosnepsid]

I am quite confused about how they would ever know how old you are.

And also, if they want to actually meet you and see you, I'd be surprised if their interest waned because of your age.

One of my Classics professors sold a script after Gladiator (when people were snatching up Classics stuff) and he was certainly no young man nor had he sold before.

If you want to talk about discrimination, I think if you are a 50 year old white man you still have a better shot that a young black woman or any Asian person at all.

[JustinoXXV]

I never said that queries never work. I do think that they are highly unlikely to work, though. By all means, send them off. But be aware of the odds and other possible avenues.

Also, if you're just submitting blind queries how would you know who likes what project? You may be wasting stamps.

At least if you're more in the scene and you know people you might have knowledge of who wants what.

As for you rejecting the vast majority of scripts send your way, I'm sure you do. I've known development executives who've had to reject even good scripts for all sorts of reasons (an excessive budget for the would be film is a common one). Also, what you think is poor or unviable another person might think is more or viable. The real reason so many scripts are rejected is that there are so many screenwriter wanna bes. I've read that something like 150,000 scripts are registered a year. But as for mainstream Hollywood theatrical releases, we only had 517 last year. So there are an excess of scripts. I've lived in Los Angeles, where everyone working at Starbucks, the janitor, the gas station attendant, and that person sleeping on the bench has a script.

All things considered, if the screenwriter has money or access to it, you can do the film yourself. Make sure you get a good crew and that you have good lighting, acting, etc. You can easily get some sort of distribution, and though it might be indie, you'll be a head of most of those 150,000 registering scripts each year.

Alternatively, if you're tight with an actor, you can write a script for him/her.

But back to the word, suck. I sometimes think when people say something sucks it's their way of saying that they have a poor vocabulary.:) With that said, there can be all sorts of problems with scripts, from structural/format to whatever the concept of a script.

If I've written a gay Latin comedy for example, from the very subject there will be plenty who will say that it sucks (it's certainly not mainstream). But just because it isn't right for a producer who is backed by Fox doesn't mean that there is no market for it. I've had the same scripts looked at by a variety of different people in the industry and gotten totally different opinions on the concept, marketability, etc.

I honestly do not like sports or anything related to sports. Doesn't mean that they suck, but just that they aren't my cup of tea. Likewise, you might not like gangster films or scripts that take place in the ghetto. But that doesn't mean that the script is bad.

I remember one guy who I've seen around on the net. He said his script contained all Korean characters and it was rejected because there are no major Korean stars.

Back on the subject, you really need to get to know people and know their tastes to know where they are coming from. People will like and not like your script for all sorts of personal reasons.

[IWrite]

Justino -

The point I was making is that most aspiring writers are not in LA or NY, they don't know people in the business at all and their avenues are limited.

For those people querying is in most cases the only option and I was showing that it can be a viable one - speaking from personal actual experience and not just from statistics - and incidentally the statistics are pretty damn crappy even if you do know people. Just because you have access does not mean you will garner interest. In fact on a percentage basis, the rejection rate is the same, whether you have an in or you don't.

By submitting blind queries - I meant unsolicited not uninformed. A few minutes on google or imdb can help you research specific producers and prod cos for their credits - so you can target your search. A call to the WGA can get you the name of a given writer's agent.

As for the word suck - I believe I pointed out several reasons why scripts are rejected that have nothing to do with quality (i.e. commercial viability, not a good fit for the company and/or not enough passion for the project). The sucking comment specifically referred to quality - not taste. Scripts that are sub-par, plots that are poorly constructed, characters that are one dimensional. The largest percentage of my rejections (I'd guestimate at 90%+) are because the submitted scripts were bad. To my knowledge no script that I ever rejected for sucking ever got picked up by somebody else.

While your suggestion that writers take the time to get to know the people that they are pitching is a commendable one - it is often not viable. Yes you can google and try to find interviews etc. and see what they say (I encourage people to do so) but it is not realistic for the aspiring writer in Des Moines with a full time job, a mortgage and two kids to relocate to LA and get a $10/hour entry level gig at a production company so they can network.

And while you may never have said that queries never work - you have repeatedly implied as much in numerous posts (i.e. "Of all the articles I've read by successful screenwriters, I've not read one by someone who broke in via a query. or "If you haven't formed the write relationships with the right people, there's almost no way.")

You don't seem to realize that many on the people on these boards are pursuing their passion while trying to live up to their responsibilities - like supporting their families.

There's a difference between being realistic about the chances of success and being totally pessemistic. There are many agents that accept query letters. There are many production companies that accept queries as well. The key is to write a great one and to have a great script to back it up.

As for your suggestion that it is easy to get distribution for an independent - that's somewhat laughable. Even the majority of films that make it into the film festivals each year are unable to get distribution - and far more films are submitted each year than get chosen. Investing in a film - even a film with guaranteed distribution is a total crapshoot. Most films lose money. If a film cannot get distribution, it cannot make its money back - it will also not be seen - so it doesn't do much to elevate the profile of the writer. I have nothing against independent film. In fact, I'm a supporter - but it is as much a crap shoot as getting an agent. And once you sell the rights to a screenplay - that's it, they're gone. You cannot go resell the rights if the independent version doesn't get picked up.

Since both are crapshoots it might be more worthwhile to invest the time and energy into querying in the hopes of a 100K sale than hooking up with a wannabe producer with a 100K budget.

[JustinoXXV]

"As for your suggestion that it is easy to get distribution for an independent - that's somewhat laughable. Even the majority of films that make it into the film festivals each year are unable to get distribution - and far more films are submitted each year than get chosen. Investing in a film - even a film with guaranteed distribution is a total crapshoot. Most films lose money."

When did I say the screenwriter should do this to make money per se? (though obviously everyone would like to). I mainly suggested that in order to get the screenwriter out there and ahead of most would be writers. A person with a distributed film is still far ahead of someone who is sending off 2000 queries a year.

I suggested that if he or she had a distributed film, that he'd be far ahead of that person in Iowa. Most would be screenwriters never even get an indie film distributed. As for how easy it is to finance it, that depends on how much money the person and his or her family has, well as as who he or she is. Some people are born hustlers/salesmen. And a good hustler always talk people out of their money. I've known good salesmen in a number of industries and you'd be surprised at what people can sell.

As for that person in AOA, people typically want to meet with a prospective screenwriter before they decide to sign you as as a client, or do anything with you.

If you can't meet with people when they need to meet with you, you might as well forget it.

And yes, I know that just because you know people you can't guarantee interest.

A script that perhaps "sucked" may have very well been rewritten and resubmitted and picked up by another prodco. Or as it, it may have been picked up by another prodco. I doubt you track scripts you reject, so how would you know.

As far there being many agents who accept queries, well, I'd say that the majority of the Hollywood sales to studios are done by the top agencies like AA that don't accept queries. Studios don't accept screenplays from unrepped writers.

As far as the smaller prodcos go, those that do accept queries are much more likely to option your script. Even then, it might not actually get bought (if they don't raise enough money for the budget it won't).

All in all, I don't think queries alone work. I'd never said don't do them. I have questioned why people would rely on them exclusively.

And as for that person living in Iowa, well, if an actor or director is in Iowa and serious about being an actor or director, he or she is going to have to go to LA or NY at some point. And that's kids or no kids. A lot of people in LA or NY kind of dismiss people from the rest of the country and there are those script readers and interns that I know would really have a tendency to reject people from the vast middle of the country.

Also, if your writing needs development, you'll find a lot more classes, workshops, degree programs etc in LA or in NYC than you will in Iowa. And any studies you take will definitely be more reputable in LA or NYC.

[zeprosnepsid]

Oh goodness. Quite a debate here.

But I think everyone can agree on the following:
-Query letters do work, although your odds are not the best
-If you "know people" you have a better chance of selling your script.

Living in LA and NY do help, but you really can "know people" anywhere. To pick up the favored example of Iowa -- Although it's a prank, William Shatner is currently shooting in Iowa. You never know... But nonetheless, most of the people I know in the business, I knew before moving to LA.

You can also make movies anywhere and a lot of the independent films that receive distribution do not shoot in LA.

Either way, it's hard to "make it" as a screenwriter and no one should be detered from trying despite the odds.

[JustinoXXV]

" Either way, it's hard to "make it" as a screenwriter and no one should be detered from trying despite the odds."

And either way, if you're serious as a screenwriter you'll likely need to be willing to try multiple avenues.

Hey, Ashton Kircher (however you spell his name) is from Iowa. If his sister (assuming he still has one living in Iowa( decides to write screenplays she has one solid industry connection right there.:)

[Joe Calabrese]

I'm always wary when I see pages, upon pages, upon pages of a post defending one's point, or better yet, trying to convert a non-believer.

I may be wrong, but I feel that if you can't defend yourself in a short, concise statement, then you are probably grasping at straws.

So, you all have valid points. Queries do work, so does living in LA, so does living in Iowa, so does making it yourself, so does kidnapping Speilberg's daughter, etc...

Okay, so there is no 100% sure-fire way to break in the business BUT there is one guarenteed trick to NOT make it-- do nothing.

I live near NY and all of my contacts and work come as a result only from LA. I still send out query letters (on my manager's stationary) and I go to film festivals and parties to shmooze. I fly out to LA four times a year and my manager sets up meetings. Every 5th flight is free thanks to frequent flier miles. I am 40, but look 50 and no one cares. Sergeant, who wrote Spiderman is ancient and he works. And...

Hell, I'm starting to break my long post philosophy. You get the point.

[JustinoXXV]

I'm not at all trying to convert a non believer, Joe. I just like to argue.:)

And with that said, film festivals are indeed good avenues for some people. If you win a screenplay competition at one of the major contests, that can work as well. Each individual screenwriter will likely end up trying a variety of avenues and finding out what works best for him/her.

And I agree with you, there is one guaranteed way of not making it. To do nothing.:)

[IWrite]

I was neither defending my position nor trying to convert a non-believer. I was simply trying to encourage those who don't live in LA or NY not to give up or feel they need to embark on a life of crime (i.e. kidnapping Spielberg's daughter) to make it in this business.

I apologize if you found me long-winded, but sometimes a sound-bite is not enough to communicate a complete idea.

A logline does not tell a full story, it merely gets you to want to hear the full story.

[JustinoXXV]

For the record, if you live outside those two cities, there's nothing wrong with submitting queries. Go straight ahead. But if you do get serious interest in your work, you'll need to be able to get on the next airplane to LA or NY, because people in the film industry typically want to meet screenwriter before they even present a deal. Of course, more often than not meetings don't lead to closed deals.

It might be expensive flying out to LA or NY just for meetings, particularly if they start to come up frequently.

[Joe Calabrese]

Of course, more often than not meetings don't lead to closed deals.


Aint it the truth, brother.