Preaching versus Moral in Children's Novels

CaroGirl · Feb 28, 2008

These are difficult issues and probably the reason I don't write children's literature. It's just too hard. Especially when reading Dahl's work and knowing how brilliant he was yet how deceptively effortless he made it seem.

I prefer children's stories that have a moral. I'm not sure I cared when I was a kid myself, but I do care now that I'm a parent. Sure there's a place for stories like Captain Underpants, that are just silly because they get kids reading for pleasure. But after kids are hooked on reading, let's give them something with more meat.

I don't think I have an answer for you, Kevin, except to say that kids are smart. If you make your story too preachy, they won't be fooled and it'll turn them off. Better to be more subtle and let it seep into their psyche from under a great story.

Calla Lily · Feb 28, 2008

I just happen to have 2 kids and I can give you their take on this.

They hate and despise morals of any kind. Extreme example: VeggieTales. Nothing makes them run away faster. Okay, maybe spinach. But other than that. Heck, VeggieTales trigger my automatic gag reflex.

Yet they love anything Roald Dahl, and so did I. IMHO, because Dahl never hit the reader over the head with a moral. He let it come out through the writing. In Charlie, we all knew Veruca Salt was going to get hers, and when she did, I don't think anyone needed to be told that she got sent down the garbage chute because she was a selfish brat. Dahl created characters that were in themselves an object lesson--and he disguised them with great dialogue and fascinating, exciting scenes.

If I get a hint in a book that it's a moralistic tale, I toss it immediately. I want to be entertained, not "improved." Now, when you can "improve" me subtly through entertaining me, you got a winner.

Polenth · Feb 28, 2008

I didn't notice morals as a child, as long as the story was a good one. The mistake some authors make is to get so wrapped up in the moral that they forget plot, characters, making an interesting world etc.

Stew21 · Feb 28, 2008

Let the moral come out in actions rather than narrative.

That's the short answer I can think of.

I'll have to think of how to say it longer and more specifically and come back.

Stew21 · Feb 28, 2008

I believe as long as you have the moral in your mind while you write, you will be able to dispense the moral organically, Kevin. let their actions lead the way.

I checked out the Roald Dahl collection from the library on Saturday - on CD - Roald Dahl is the one reading them. Unbelievable stories. I love them. and I ADORE them in Dahl's voice.

CaroGirl · Feb 28, 2008

Maybe it's more like "theme" in adult novels. Some novels beat you over the head with it, some approach theme in a subtler way. Keep your moral in mind as you write but don't forget to tell a great story with interesting characters. Easy, eh?

OddButInteresting · Feb 28, 2008

Stew21 said:
Let the moral come out in actions rather than narrative.

It's essentially the "Showing Vs Telling" dilemma. Let the audience pick it apart themselves. Show them what is there, but allow them to decipher whether or not the colour of the curtains or the placement of the fruit bowl are symbolic.

In the present, the young are far wiser than the old. This is because they're absorbing the contemporary context free from the bounds of their nostalgia. I was discussing this about half an hour ago with some of my housemates. My grandma talks as if the 1940s never ended, and views the present through the lens of the past.

Whatever worked for you back in the day may not work for kids in this day and age. Dahl is an excellent example of cross-generational appeal. As others have said in this topic, it's probably largely due to his mastery of subtletly. His values may be archaic, but on the other hand they may still resonate today.

In my opinion, it is this ambiguity that you should be aiming for. Your story shouldn't be dependent upon its moral; the moral should be a product of the story.

Soccer Mom · Feb 28, 2008

Well, I do write for kids and I'm of the opinion that moral for kids is like theme for adults. It must be organic and part of the story. Nothing makes kids toss a book faster than being preached at. Instead of worrying about "moral", frame your story in a way to show them what you want them to see. The most important thing I've noticed is that the good guys must always win. And they shouldn't be too good and noble. Kids want to see realistic characters who struggle with choices, just like they do. But the good guys must ALWAYS win. It's very important to most of them. They want to feel that there is some sort of justice in the universe, that no matter how grim things seem, there is hope. They want to know that it will be okay.

Just my .02.

hammerklavier · Feb 28, 2008

Just write. Your own morals will come out in the story, for better or worse.

Charlie Horse · Feb 28, 2008

Oh, God. You mean we're not supposed to hammer kids over the head with our rants against the evils of society?

Ah, well, maybe someone will like my "evils of the corporate takeover of society/anti-fast food, let's start a revolution" 500 page YA feel good novel.

dolores haze · Feb 28, 2008

KTC said:
What will children tolerate in today's world of storytelling? I find Dahl's morals to be blunt...in your face...and that's what I want to aspire too, as well. I like it that way.

Yes. They were blunt and in your face, BUT they were also funny, entertaining, and thought provoking. And don't forget how much blame was placed on overly indulgent parents. I know I laughed a lot over the portrayal of the parents in CatCF.

I write children's stories, and I struggle with exactly the same thing. I always have a message/moral in there. Keeping them entertained and keeping them thinking - it's NOT easy.

Good luck! Glad you're back to work on Dubious.

Stew21 · Feb 28, 2008

Most of the themes in TLFE were cultivated in second draft. (though maybe too cultivated in the case of TLFE; I feel like I club readers over the head in some spots and I'm trying to work those out.) I know you write similarly - that organic story creation with the finer elements built in without you being aware of really writing them. Tell your story this time, fine tune the themes later if they need it. You already have a strong idea of what those themes are so it shouldn't take much refining.

Toothpaste · Feb 28, 2008

My book has been reviewed as having morals in them, and while I never set out to "teach" kids anything, I know as I was writing I couldn't help but have a few interesting lessons in there. As others have said, show don't tell. You say the morals in Charlie and the Chocolate Factory are obvious, they are. But they are also part of the plot. His is a very typical structure of a horror story really. We know from the beginning each kid is going to get theirs, one by one they are going to be picked off. So it never feels like the morals are out of place in the story, they are one and the same. In fact the entire story is one big moral, Wonka wants to find a kid to give his factory to and must leave it to the most worthy.

But again, I'm not sure it is wise thinking things like, "I want to hit them over the head with a moral". Because if that's the main focus of your story, it will just seem preachy. Say something to yourself more like: "I want to tell an awesome story, that has a really moral backbone." Or something.

And again, most importantly, show don't tell.

Calla Lily · Feb 28, 2008

Toothpaste, you did what Dahl did--snuck in the morals when I was too busy

SPOILERS!!!

wondering how Alex was going to help the souls in the train, and convincig the Octopus that he should drop the booze and honor his commitment to the film director, and waking up to the fact that pirates are not the good guys, when the captain casually kills the one crewmember for making a mistake.

IIRC, I think I compared Alex to Charlie in my review. Serendipity!

HeronW · Feb 28, 2008

I adored Dr Seuss and he definitely had morals in his books:
Green Eggs and Ham--don't automatically reject a food just because it's different.
The Sneeches on the Beaches--differences don't matter.
Yurtle the Turtle--the little one at the bottom can make a difference.
The Grinch is self-explanatory.
Seuss was a joy to read, the pictures were perfect and I wish his lessons were remembered by more people.

Lyxdeslic · Feb 28, 2008

I think, Sir Kevin, for me the answer is the same whether it be adult fiction or children's: keep the moral underlying. As with all things brilliant, subtlety is key.

And judging from your posts, you seem a quite capable keymaster.

Lyx

timewaster · Feb 28, 2008

[

Do I even have to worry about moral? Maybe I should just let it occur organically and see what happens?[/quote]

I would urge you not to worry about it. I can't think of anything worse than setting out to write a story with a moral.
If you have a personal moral code (or even if you haven't) that will emerge as you write: you don't have to do anything but write the best story you can. You may not be able to see it, but it will be there.
In my experience kids hate overt preaching of any kind. I think Dahl works because for the time he was writing he was an iconaclast. The adults are often stupid or wicked or amoral - as are some of the children. Willy Wonka is a monster. Dahl undermines the whole notion of the morality tale and children like this transgressive quality.

Torgo · Feb 28, 2008

Do try not to be didactic. Dahl wasn't - his horrible people were just plain horrible, as any child could plainly see without it having to be explained. I remember I fell out of love with CS Lewis the moment I realised Aslan was supposed to be Jesus.

maestrowork · Feb 28, 2008

As a child, I hated it when the adults started to say, "and the moral of the story is..." What moral? Leave me alone. I just enjoyed the story. Granted, I always liked to the morals of the Aesop fables and Jesus' parables, but those are "fables" and they are short.

timewaster · Feb 28, 2008

Kids want to see realistic characters who struggle with choices, just like they do. But the good guys must ALWAYS win. It's very important to most of them. They want to feel that there is some sort of justice in the universe, that no matter how grim things seem, there is hope. They want to know that it will be okay.

I think that depends on the age of the kids. In teen fiction I think you can afford to be more realistic. Sometimes things aren't completely OK.

timewaster · Feb 28, 2008

maestrowork said:
As a child, I hated it when the adults started to say, "and the moral of the story is..." What moral? Leave me alone. I just enjoyed the story.

I still feel like that and I write for children.

Preaching versus Moral in Children's Novels

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