Maintaining the "Fictional Dream"

lostlore · Feb 22, 2008

I'm stuck in what I hope is the very last round of revision in my novel, and I'd like to solicit some advice.

I find it useful to think about a novel as a long "fictional dream" (a term of John Gardner's), where when you read you see it all really happening, even more real than waking life, like it's one long dream. It feels natural to think of a story like this and it's been very helpful to me.

But I think there are two stretches in my manuscript where the dream is broken: these sections feel long and tedious to me, like just words and words and words. Looking them over again and again I see that these sections tell what I wanted to tell, they bring you from A to B, but for whatever reason they just don't carry the dream: I can't "see" it happening to the characters like in the rest of the book.

I'm contemplating more revision on those sections and I know that the problem isn't going to be solved by more line editing; I'm considering rekeying them and even total rewrite.

What do you do when you feel like there are places like this in your book, where it loses and breaks out of the "fictional dream"?

Feathers · Feb 22, 2008

I've never heard the term "fictional dream" before, but I've always thought of my novels that way, just without the term. Usually for me when the "dream" is "broken" It's because A) I was out of charecter B) It was melodramatic or C) It just doesn't feel like my story. This tends to happen when I've gotten too comfortable with the story and things are just gliding along...things are getting done, stuff is happening, but it's not exciting anymore. Usually this happens around the middles of my book, when I'm so close to the charecters and the plot that I sort of glaze over as I'm writing.

The only cure I know for this is to make things spark again. Like, you know how at the beginning of a book everything is fresh and exciting? Maybe you could try to rewrite your sagging scenes like they are the beginning of your book.

I'm not sure if I understood your problem, exactly, so I'm also not sure my advice helped...hope it did

-Feathers

Red-Green · Feb 22, 2008

I definitely know what you mean about losing the "fictional dream." Usually it happens to me when I'm forcing myself to do BIC and just muscling my way through action. Jeez, how to describe how I get the dream back...

I do something I call "enzymatic action." I try to dissolve the mundane he did this then he did that into more raw, elemental things. To get at the meat of why I'm even showing the reader this stuff. What's the important thing happening? I dissolve the clutter and then see if I can rebuild from the raw material.

Also I do a thing I call "embodiment." I try to imbue mechanical action with more intense POV. To make the action about how the character is feeling or thinking or seeing the world.

Hope that helps?

lostlore said:
I'm stuck in what I hope is the very last round of revision in my novel, and I'd like to solicit some advice.

I find it useful to think about a novel as a long "fictional dream" (a term of John Gardner's), where when you read you see it all really happening, even more real than waking life, like it's one long dream. It feels natural to think of a story like this and it's been very helpful to me.

But I think there are two stretches in my manuscript where the dream is broken: these sections feel long and tedious to me, like just words and words and words. Looking them over again and again I see that these sections tell what I wanted to tell, they bring you from A to B, but for whatever reason they just don't carry the dream: I can't "see" it happening to the characters like in the rest of the book.

I'm contemplating more revision on those sections and I know that the problem isn't going to be solved by more line editing; I'm considering rekeying them and even total rewrite.

What do you do when you feel like there are places like this in your book, where it loses and breaks out of the "fictional dream"?

DeleyanLee · Feb 22, 2008

Personally, I can never tell if I've thrown someone out of the story while I'm writing it. That's something I need a reader (even if it's just me wearing a different hat) for. >I< know the story, so I tend to see the connection whether or not it's on the page. Either that or I'm so close to it, I can't see what's really on the page.

If I'm having doubts, I get my most trusted friends to read it through and have them not if they're every tossed out of the story without giving them prior notice of my concern. If either of these ladies tells me that it's a problem, I know I've got something to fix. If they don't see it, then it's just me and my misperception.

Andrhia · Feb 22, 2008

In revising my novel, I noticed the same thing, but called it the places where there's no music in it. Funny how we all call the same essential problem by different names.

I wound up chopping a lot of scenes entirely because there was no music in them, and because the story stood without them. And I significantly rewrote sections like this, too. Mostly they were lacking consistency of voice, or needed a little more tension.

My thought to you would be this: if you feel like those sections are jarring, they probably are. If even you as the writer think they're dull, they probably are. Take a break from it and then go back with an eye to cutting and rewriting and see how it goes then.

Good luck!

windyrdg · Feb 22, 2008

John Gardner is one of my heroes. After reading his books on writing I saw my self as a creative artist for the first time. (Of course, I've spent my writing life doing newspaper work, nonfiction, technical writing, etc. and only turned to novels about four years ago.)

I, too, had a similar problem. They were mostly transistions where I wanted to bring the reader up to speed on what had been happening to the other characters in the interim, or an attempt to cover a long passage of time. A Beta reader really nailed me on them. I solved them in one of two ways:
A) Cut them out. I decide the reader really didn't need to know that her aunt and uncle sold the farm and moved into town.
B) Converted them to dialog. Even if it can't be done completely, having those big blocks of narrative broken up by sections of dialog gets things moving.

Chasing the Horizon · Feb 22, 2008

I know what you mean. I think of my stories in a similar way (though I use 'movie in your head' instead of 'fictional dream'.) Basically, I feel that the story should just play in the reader's mind, and they shouldn't be aware of the words or that they're reading at all. But, like you, every now and then I end up with a scene that breaks this 'trance'. Usually it's breaking it because of one of two things:
1. I was thinking about the words as I wrote the scene. I seriously do not think at all normally when I write, and if I do think then the writing isn't in sync with my voice. I just figured out the other day that this was why none of my love scenes (except one) seemed to work. Unfortunately, the only way I know of to fix this is to rewrite the scene, this time with less thinking involved.
2. I wanted to 'fast forward' through some events and ended up telling instead of showing them. If the telling takes so long that it breaks that flow of the story, then the events being told are probably important enough to be shown (or, maybe, so unimportant they can be cut all together).

At least it seems like the more I write the less frequent these mistakes become.

ishtar'sgate · Feb 22, 2008

lostlore said:
What do you do when you feel like there are places like this in your book, where it loses and breaks out of the "fictional dream"?

Interesting term. I don't think of it that way but I know what you're getting at. I usually dump sections like that and rewrite completely. I don't find that tinkering with that sort of problem area works for me. I need to take a fresh approach which means lopping it out and starting over.
Linnea

Sean D. Schaffer · Feb 22, 2008

ishtar'sgate said:
Interesting term. I don't think of it that way but I know what you're getting at. I usually dump sections like that and rewrite completely. I don't find that tinkering with that sort of problem area works for me. I need to take a fresh approach which means lopping it out and starting over.
Linnea

This is what I had to do with my present novel WIP. I had to cull five of the earlier manuscript's chapters to make the writing tighter, and the story make more sense.

If I hadn't done this, I would have ended up with a clumsy, bloated piece of writing that just would not be a pleasing read. I really think a lot of my problem is I put stuff that, though relevant to the story, is mainly filler material or backstory that disrupts the continuity of the work. The "Fictional Dream" is disrupted by tangents, in other words.

So I know where the OP is coming from, too. I guess we learn from experience, what works and what doesn't. I would consider this an experience from which to learn, like all other experiences.

All the best with your writing.

--Sean

maestrowork · Feb 22, 2008

The fictive dream, to me, is all about details: the five senses, the action, the dialogue, etc. that makes me believe I'm actually IN that world and not just reading it. Pacing helps too (the faster I turn the page, the less I remember the real world I'm in...). But mostly it's about the five senses -- show vs. tell.

Layla Nahar · Feb 23, 2008

I think I know what you mean. I'm on a first draft and I can see/feel the places that are lacking. In my case I think it has a lot to do with some ways that I don't know one of the characters enough. I'm hoping that in my 2nd or 3rd draft I'll have enough to not have to do a complete re-working of my story. (That scares me.)

just a thoght - have you analyzed the 'weak spots' to see what the source is? maybe you could do some kind of work on that aspect of your WIP (Like making lists, you know, that kind of thing) and that might help for a new rewrite.

job · Feb 23, 2008

To fix these sections ... you might try moving further into character POV. Being deep in character POV pulls us into the fictive haze.

Novelhistorian · Feb 23, 2008

I may be remembering incorrectly, but I thought Gardner wrote of a "vivid, continuous dream." Whether that's the right phrase or not doesn't matter; as our maestro says above, vividness puts readers in the scene, and abstract language can nudge them out of it. So ask yourself, If the prose feels abstract, is there a reason? Are you somehow not quite confident of the information/ locale/description? Or are you conscious of the space you're taking up and want to get through it too quickly? If so, maybe you've succumbed to the wrong end of a paradox: two paragraphs of flabby prose drags, while four paragraphs recounting the same information, if vividly written, leaps off the page.

But consider continuity. If that information dropped out of the book entirely, what would happen? Is it absolutely necessary? Figure out what the necessary part is, and go from there. My preference would be to rewrite entirely, then compare the new version to the old. If it still doesn't work, you may not be able to save it, but you'll have proven it one way or the other.

Mumut · Feb 23, 2008

Deleyanlee uses trusted friends. I was advised not to do that because they might be biased. I'm lucky, though. My wife has never had any difficulty in criticising me so I can let her read the work.

Otherwise, analyse the tedious stretch. What must be told? How can I do it in the fewest words without losing the interest/humour/characterisation? Then take out the razor.

After the stitches are in place read the whole work again and make sure no other passage of the book has been compromised by the surgery. It is hard. I find I usually have to sacrifice things I really like and am really pleased with myself for using. But pride must fall for the sake of the story!

Nateskate · Feb 24, 2008

lostlore said:
I'm stuck in what I hope is the very last round of revision in my novel, and I'd like to solicit some advice.

What do you do when you feel like there are places like this in your book, where it loses and breaks out of the "fictional dream"?

My story feels alive to me, like the characters and places are real. That part feels great. But when things aren't working and a part of the story drags, it can be very frustrating to fix.

What do I do? I generally will lock myself to that chapter until I fix it, because I need to keep pressing forward.

From a technical standpoint, parts that drag can be fixed or removed. The struggle is figuring out whether that part is needed, and if so, how do you make it work?

Some of my best chapters were once train wrecks that left me reworking things line by line for weeks. There is no one solution. Sometimes adding action and speed up pacing works. Other times, I need to slow it down and describe an interaction or scene better.

lostlore · Feb 25, 2008

Feathers said:
It just doesn't feel like my story. This tends to happen when I've gotten too comfortable with the story and things are just gliding along...things are getting done, stuff is happening, but it's not exciting anymore. Usually this happens around the middles of my book, when I'm so close to the charecters and the plot that I sort of glaze over as I'm writing.

That's it! Exactly! Yes!

The only cure I know for this is to make things spark again. Like, you know how at the beginning of a book everything is fresh and exciting? Maybe you could try to rewrite your sagging scenes like they are the beginning of your book.

I think this is what I have to do. Despite the fact that 4 agents are now reading the sagging version.

I'm not sure if I understood your problem, exactly, so I'm also not sure my advice helped...hope it did

It did!

-Feathers

Click to expand...

lostlore · Feb 25, 2008

Redzilla said:
I definitely know what you mean about losing the "fictional dream." Usually it happens to me when I'm forcing myself to do BIC and just muscling my way through action.

What's BIC? Because It C...?

Jeez, how to describe how I get the dream back...

Hard to do, ain't it?

I do something I call "enzymatic action." I try to dissolve the mundane he did this then he did that into more raw, elemental things. To get at the meat of why I'm even showing the reader this stuff. What's the important thing happening? I dissolve the clutter and then see if I can rebuild from the raw material.

Also I do a thing I call "embodiment." I try to imbue mechanical action with more intense POV. To make the action about how the character is feeling or thinking or seeing the world.

Hope that helps?

I'm going to try it. And will post an update here!

lostlore · Feb 25, 2008

DeleyanLee said:
Personally, I can never tell if I've thrown someone out of the story while I'm writing it.

I sometimes feel this way. Actually, I *always* feel this way -- never sure if the engaging story I have is engaging at all to someone else. It has to satisfy *me*, but when I approach it as a reader it's always different from a stranger since I'm the one who wrote it.

I think this is the source of dissatisfaction in writing, at least for me -- even when I've written something that is precisely what I set out to write, and I believe it is a fine piece of writing, I can't *enjoy* it in the same way that I would something written by another writer.

I also find it hard to trust outside readers. At least the ones I've had so far. Maybe I just haven't found a good trusted reader yet.

lostlore · Feb 25, 2008

Andrhia said:
In revising my novel, I noticed the same thing, but called it the places where there's no music in it. Funny how we all call the same essential problem by different names.

I have called the manuscript a "symphony" because that's how I think of it unfolding, that's how I think of the whole structure -- with movements, crescendos, tempo, theme. And in these places, I've been saying that everything's flat!

Thanks for the tips.

lostlore · Feb 25, 2008

Hope To The Horizon said:
2. I wanted to 'fast forward' through some events and ended up telling instead of showing them. If the telling takes so long that it breaks that flow of the story, then the events being told are probably important enough to be shown (or, maybe, so unimportant they can be cut all together).

I was afriad of this. At least one of these sections has a lot of telling. I'm afraid of making the book too long, but I'll either have to cut completely or let the pages pile up.

DeleyanLee · Feb 25, 2008

Mumut said:
Deleyanlee uses trusted friends. I was advised not to do that because they might be biased. I'm lucky, though. My wife has never had any difficulty in criticising me so I can let her read the work.

And I'm lucky that my friends have never had any difficulty in critiquing my work and leaving me and our relationship out of the picture as well. But, then, we became friends because we found we could completely trust each other's opinions.

If you want to use someone else as the extra set of eyes, all that matters is that you trust their opinion regardless of what your relationship is.

lostlore · Feb 25, 2008

maestrowork said:
The fictive dream, to me, is all about details: the five senses, the action, the dialogue, etc. that makes me believe I'm actually IN that world and not just reading it. Pacing helps too (the faster I turn the page, the less I remember the real world I'm in...). But mostly it's about the five senses -- show vs. tell.

Senses and pacing -- this is it, just thinking about these sections now. They have big hunks of "telling" going on, in interest of keeping total wordcount down. I have to revisit this.

And BTW, I think this is the actual term as used by Gardner, "fictive dream."

lostlore · Feb 25, 2008

The advice you've all given me has helped a lot -- thanks!

Now I've got to get to work!

angeliz2k · Feb 25, 2008

lostlore said:
I was afriad of this. At least one of these sections has a lot of telling. I'm afraid of making the book too long, but I'll either have to cut completely or let the pages pile up.

I recommend not being too worried about making it too long, so long as it doesn't drag. If a few extra words will save you from "telling" then I'd say go for it.

We probably all have this problem. I picture it as a puzzle and the piece doesn't fit, or a painting that's been smudged in the corner. Something about a word, sentence, phrase, or paragraph just doesn't sit right in my mind. I usually do a combination of:

1. Rewriting the section.
2. Heavy revision; first I go back after a few weeks or so and give it the hatchet. Then I go back again some time later and see if I'm happy with what I've done. If not, I take the hatchet to it again. Going back multiple times helps me weed out what I don't like.

Hopcus · Feb 25, 2008

I sometimes have this problem in my middles too. Thanks for all the advice!

Maintaining the "Fictional Dream"

lostlore

Feathers

emerging from the writing cave

Red-Green

KoalaKoalaKoala!

DeleyanLee

Writing Anarchist

Andrhia

windyrdg

New kid, be gentle!

Chasing the Horizon

Blowing in the Wind

ishtar'sgate

living in the past

Sean D. Schaffer

maestrowork

Fear the Death Ray

Layla Nahar

Seashell Seller

job

In the end, it's just you and the manuscript

Novelhistorian

Mumut

Well begun is half done...

Nateskate

lostlore

lostlore

lostlore

lostlore

lostlore

DeleyanLee

Writing Anarchist

lostlore

lostlore

angeliz2k

never mind the shorty

Hopcus