Question about end of sentence preposition?

Danalynn · Feb 21, 2008

I'm not sure if I'm posting this question in the right spot or not. (If not, I'm sorry.)
:e2tomato:

Is it always wrong to use a preposition at the end of a sentence?
Or is it okay to do this once in a while?

Here is where I've used one in my WIP:

I scowled at them, not liking the sound of that one bit. But then again, I thought, what punishment does a kid like the sound of?

I don't know how else to word this so it doesn't end with a preposition.

Any advice?
:e2apple:

(P.S. I love the smilies on here! lol!)

Mr Flibble · Feb 21, 2008

I always follow Churchill's advice.

Ending a sentence witha preposition is the sort of arrant nonesense up with which I will not put.

In other words, sometimes it's best to do it - especially in dialogue, because that's how people talk.

Marlys · Feb 21, 2008

Dana-Lynn said:
Any advice?

Leave it--it's fine.

And although it's a great story, it probably wasn't Churchill.

Prawn · Feb 21, 2008

Ending a sentence with a preposition? I think it's something most people will put up with.

But I think that you can tighten up your sentence anyway.

How about something like

I scowled at them, not liking the sound of that one bit. But then again, is there ever a punishment that sounds good to a kid?

The Scip · Feb 21, 2008

Looks fine to me.

Birol · Feb 21, 2008

Moving to the the Grammar forum.

Charlie Horse · Feb 21, 2008

I don't know if this is any better.

But then again, is the sound of a punishment ever something a kid wants to hear?

If you're comfortable with the way you've written this then stick with it. It's just that I've spent years perfecting the art of avoiding them.

KikiteNeko · Feb 21, 2008

It's okay sometimes. In writing, honestly, think about how you'd want to read something. If the character happens to speak anal-retentively all the time, then do it. In narrative, just be consistent whichever you choose.

While I was working in my school's English department, I had a boss who was so stiff about grammar and flourescent words that she often wrote emails containing such marvelous sentences as "Please assist our new student Mark on the soujuorn upon which he has embarked."

That is an actual verbatum example there. Nobody wants page after page of that.

dobiwon · Feb 21, 2008

Especially in dialogue, it's right. If that's the way the character speaks, that's the way it should be written. I'm with those who like the way you've written it. Unless of course the speaker is a picky old fart, then instead of

But then again, I thought, what punishment does a kid like the sound of?

it would be: "Perchance, does there exist any punishment to which a juvenile would be agreeable."

Dawnstorm · Feb 21, 2008

The people who dislike prepositions at the end of a sentence might re-write your sentence like this:

"But then again, I thought, the sound of what punishment does a kid like?"

or less likely:

"But then again, I thought, of what punishment does a kid like the sound?"

But there's nothing wrong with the original. It's not a grammar issue; it's a stylistic issue.

tomothecat said:
Nobody wants page after page of that.

You'd be surprised.

dobiwon said:
it would be: "Perchance, does there exist any punishment to which a juvenile would be agreeable."

Don't you mean "any punishment which, to a juvenile, would be agreeable?"

Danalynn · Feb 21, 2008

Thank you all for the help! This is something I've been wondering about for a long time.

I'll just keep it the way it is.

Thanks!
:Sun:

Quote:
Originally Posted by dobiwon
it would be: "Perchance, does there exist any punishment to which a juvenile would be agreeable."

Don't you mean "any punishment which, to a juvenile, would be agreeable?"

The speaker is 12 yrs. old, and I don't think ANY kid would talk like that... LOL!

Lance_in_Shanghai · Feb 23, 2008

I think it is very difficult to write your whole work in the exact language of a twelve year old youth. I dare say he wouldn't say "scowled" but the typical vocabulary of a twelve year old might not include any better choice. The ending of the sentence seems very ungainly to me. Does this punishment have a sound? I strongly suggest you revise it. The phrase "the sound of it" doesn't mean the literal sound. It means the idea expressed seems unpleasant. For example:
"I scowled at them, not liking the sound of that one bit. But then I thought, what punishment would a kid like?"

Danalynn · Feb 23, 2008

Thanks, Lance. I like the way you worded that. It does seem to make more sense that way.

I scowled at them, not liking the sound of that one bit. But then again, I thought, what punishment does a kid like?

Just take the last three words off the end of the sentence.... Why didn't I think of that?! LOL!

Thanks for the input.

CutteRug · Feb 28, 2008

A joke. . .

This is a joke buried somewhere (I think) in the 'Uncle Jim' thread. I hope I get it right. . .

A Texan, while visiting Harvard, stopped one of the students and asked:

"Hey pardner, tell me, where's the library at?"

"Sir, at Harvard we do not end our sentences with prepositions."

"Okay," said the Texan. "Where's the library at, a$$hole?"

Enjoy.

Danalynn · Mar 2, 2008

LOL!

Thanks.

Appalachian Writer · Mar 2, 2008

Technically, you shouldn't end a sentence with a preposition. A revision of the sentence might be required. EX: But then again, does any kid like the sound of punishment?

This question reminds of the my 3rd mother-in-law, or was it my second? Anyway, when her son (my late husband) asked where his brother was at? She answered, "He's behind the preposition, dear."

Flay · Mar 3, 2008

Appalachian Writer said:
Technically, you shouldn't end a sentence with a preposition.

There is no such rule (technically or otherwise) in English grammar. It has never been more than, as Fowler called it, "a cherished superstition".

She_wulf · Mar 3, 2008

Is "on" a preposition in this scenario?

"You need to put your pants back on."

Amy

johnnysannie · Mar 4, 2008

Way back in eighth grade English class, my teacher (Mrs. Bryan) taught us this to remember to avoid ending sentences with a preposition - she said never end a sentence with "anywhere a squirrel can run". That eliminates up, over, on, etc. but allows others like "of".

It may not be a hard and fast grammar rule but it's worked for me for years (eighth grade for me was 1974-75).

She_wulf · Mar 4, 2008

johnnysannie said:
Way back in eighth grade English class, my teacher (Mrs. Bryan) taught us this to remember to avoid ending sentences with a preposition - she said never end a sentence with "anywhere a squirrel can run". That eliminates up, over, on, etc. but allows others like "of".

It may not be a hard and fast grammar rule but it's worked for me for years (eighth grade for me was 1974-75).

"You need to put your pants back on...anywhere a squirrel can run."

:roll:

Dawnstorm · Mar 4, 2008

She_wulf said:
Is "on" a preposition in this scenario?

"You need to put your pants back on."

The people who tell you not to end sentences with prepositions would probably call it an "adverb". This is why the famous saying attributed to Churchill overshoots the mark:

"nonsense up with which I shall not put."

The traditionalists would have wanted Mr. Churchill to say:

"nonsense with which I shall not put up."

They would have called "up" an adverb.

But Churchill thought "up" was a preposition. Was Churchill wrong? No, he wasn't. He was using a different terminology (and - to my mind - a more useful one).

So the answer is: depending on who you are talking to, "on" in "put your pants back on" is either a preposition, or an adverb. No matter what you call it, nobody will fault your sentence for ending with "on".

johnnysannie · Mar 4, 2008

Adverbs tell how, why, when, and where.

A preposition could be an adverb but not necessarily.

Dawnstorm · Mar 4, 2008

johnnysannie said:
Adverbs tell how, why, when, and where.

A preposition could be an adverb but not necessarily.

So what's "on" in "put your pants back on" according to you? An adverb? A preposition? Both? Neither?

I'd call it a preposition, but I'd have to be aware that the people who want you to not end a sentence with a preposition would call it - most likely - an adverb (I've heard the term "prepositional adverb").

I haven't yet heard people arguing that a word can be a preposition and an adverb at the same time. It's a possible line of argument (in analogy to the gerund, for example, which is both verb and noun).

She_wulf · Mar 4, 2008

Dawnstorm said:
So what's "on" in "put your pants back on" according to you? An adverb? A preposition? Both? Neither?

I'd call it a preposition, but I'd have to be aware that the people who want you to not end a sentence with a preposition would call it - most likely - an adverb (I've heard the term "prepositional adverb").

I haven't yet heard people arguing that a word can be a preposition and an adverb at the same time. It's a possible line of argument (in analogy to the gerund, for example, which is both verb and noun).

Wouldn't ...pants back on (your body) make it a preposition?

Of course you could be putting pants on a squirrel or a hairy future guy in red underwear...

I couldn't resist.

That pic is just so...ew!

Amy

Dawnstorm · Mar 4, 2008

She_wulf said:
Wouldn't ...pants back on (your body) make it a preposition?

Yes, it would, and that's what many say. It's also part of why I dislike that terminology.

Of course you could be putting pants on a squirrel or a hairy future guy in red underwear...

I couldn't resist.

That pic is just so...ew!

Amy

You could also be putting the pants into the mouth of someone who's about to tell you not to end a sentence with a preposition. Best use, IMO.

Question about end of sentence preposition?

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