How would Jesus define "Christian"

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dadburnett

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Okay, I know there have been similar questions and some answers on various threads that touch on the subject, but I’d like to dig a little deeper. If we could ask Christ Jesus to specifically define what is required of us to be considered Christian, from His point of view, what would he say? For the sake of argument I’m going to presume that His answer would be the yardstick (or Micrometer) by which those who think they are Christian would be measured at the time of judgment. Any thoughts on this???
 

Sean D. Schaffer

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I think the following passage from Matthew 16:24 says it best:

Then Jesus said to His disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. -- KJV

I don't think any man could have put it better. I really don't. I think this statement is Christianity in a nutshell, in Jesus' own words.

:)


--Sean
 

dadburnett

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Sean, I wonder, is that nutshell all there is to being a Christian, is it really that simple? (I’m not being critical, just thinking out loud electronically.) What about all the other stuff Jesus reportedly said like “Follow me” “Believe in Me” – what about forgiving and loving one’s enemies? What about all the other things He said about life and relationships; don’t they somehow define a Christian? Were they just empty words? Are we not going to be held accountable for anything more than self-denial? Just wondering …. Jim
 

Sean D. Schaffer

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Sean, I wonder, is that nutshell all there is to being a Christian, is it really that simple? (I’m not being critical, just thinking out loud electronically.) What about all the other stuff Jesus reportedly said like “Follow me” “Believe in Me” – what about forgiving and loving one’s enemies? What about all the other things He said about life and relationships; don’t they somehow define a Christian? Were they just empty words? Are we not going to be held accountable for anything more than self-denial? Just wondering …. Jim


To tell you the truth, Jim, I had originally thought of a post in which I was going to deal with that very subject. I now feel like kicking myself for not having listened to the Spirit.

To 'Follow' Jesus is not just to walk behind Him. It's to live like He did. To have an attitude toward the Father like He did. To follow Christ, is to live the kind of life He lived and taught us that we should live. In another Scripture, Jesus said, "If ye love me, keep my commandments." To keep His commandments, is to follow Him. To believe in Him, is to follow Him. The majority of the nutshell I described in my previous post, can be wrapped up in the words 'Follow Me', because to follow Him, is to follow in His ways and in His attitudes.

I hope this helps. Like I said, the Spirit put this definition on my heart before, but I, sadly, did not listen. My bad. :eek:


--Sean
 

rugcat

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Sean, I wonder, is that nutshell all there is to being a Christian, is it really that simple? (I’m not being critical, just thinking out loud electronically.) What about all the other stuff Jesus reportedly said like “Follow me” “Believe in Me” – what about forgiving and loving one’s enemies? What about all the other things He said about life and relationships; don’t they somehow define a Christian? Were they just empty words? Are we not going to be held accountable for anything more than self-denial? Just wondering …. Jim
I have found that for some, though not all Christians, it is that simple. That "other stuff" is all well and good, but pales in comparison to the act of accepting Christ. Good works and concern for one's fellow man are meaningless without the belief and acceptance of Jesus Christ.
 

C. L. Richardson

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I think of Christians as people who have agreed to let Jesus Christ stand in their place at judgment. Salvation doesn't come by works but by faith, and when we have faith, good works follow as fruits of that faith. :)
 

ALLWritety

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Very interesting thread.

I think Jesus would say:
Follow me, deny your self, die daily on the cross, Love the Lord your God with your whole being and love people as you love God, in the power of the Holy Spirit.

Kev
 

rwam

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I have found that for some, though not all Christians, it is that simple. That "other stuff" is all well and good, but pales in comparison to the act of accepting Christ. Good works and concern for one's fellow man are meaningless without the belief and acceptance of Jesus Christ.

I think it's all too easy for us to confuse 'requirements for salvation' with 'what it means to be a Christian on a daily basis', you know? One of Jesus' quotes that really speaks to me is when he tells his disciples, "If you love me, do what I ask you to do" (I paraphrase). We'd probably all agree that all true Christians love Christ. So, Jesus wants us to DO something. While I don't have the context of this verse, the bulk of what Jesus wants us to DO is found in the Sermon On The Mount (Matthew, chapters 5-7). He also asks us to "Be perfect"....not that He expects us to be perfect, but I think He expects us to give it the old college try. In a nutshell, if we truly love Jesus, we should TRY to be perfect, all the while burdened with the knowledge that it's a doomed endeavor.

Nice topic, Mr. Burnett!
 

Roger J Carlson

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Then Jesus said to His disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. -- KJV

Sean, I wonder, is that nutshell all there is to being a Christian, is it really that simple?
It doesn't sound simple to me.

Deny myself (deny everything I want to do with my life), take up my cross (the burden for the salvation of mankind that Jesus carried), and follow him (live my life the way he did).

Salvation is simple -- believe in Christ -- but living that salvation is very hard.
 

III

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The guy who used to disciple me would always say "Love God. Hate sin." Didn't matter how deep or convoluted my question was. It drove me nuts. It was always the right answer, but it drove me nuts.
 

BruceJ

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It doesn't sound simple to me.

Deny myself (deny everything I want to do with my life), take up my cross (the burden for the salvation of mankind that Jesus carried), and follow him (live my life the way he did).

Salvation is simple -- believe in Christ -- but living that salvation is very hard.
Here's another "simple" one:

1 John 2:3-6
By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected By this we know that we are in Him: the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

I, for one, am not ready to argue with John. :)
 

dadburnett

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Two part question for the sake of discussion:
What are His commandments?
Do we really follow, walk in his footsteps if we are preoccupied witht the stuff of life - work, finances, politics, insecurity and war?
 

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Christian = "little Christs"

We are but little children trying to be like him. We can try, but we will usually fail as far as fully and totally and consistently achieving that end. We can at best imitate only bits and pieces at a time of the whole of who he is, and in a very scattershot manner. I think he generously gives us an "A" for effort, but the ACTUAL accomplishment of it --I don't think so. We fall dismally short, and yet he still looks past our failure anyhow. And guess who it is that winds up looking good in the end?
 

BruceJ

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Two part question for the sake of discussion:
What are His commandments?
Do we really follow, walk in his footsteps if we are preoccupied witht the stuff of life - work, finances, politics, insecurity and war?
(1) I suggest starting with the Sermon on the Mount (Matt. 5-7), then keep reading to the end of the Gospel of John. No simple post in AW is going to replace that.
(2) We can because Scripture applies to all those things, teaching us--among other things--not to be preoccupied with them; e.g.,
work - 1 Cor. 3:10-15; Col. 3:23
finances - Ecc. 5:10; Isa. 55:2; Luke 12:34; 1 Tim. 6:10
politics - Rom. 13:1-7
insecurity - Psalm 27:3; 2 Tim. 1:7
war - Psalm 68:30; 76:3; 140:2 and yet Psalm 144:1; Prov. 20:18; 24:6

Apart from Scripture, knowledge of Christ--and therefore what it means to be a Christian--is severely wanting.
 

dadburnett

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Christian?

(1) I suggest starting with the Sermon on the Mount (Matt. 5-7), then keep reading to the end of the Gospel of John. No simple post in AW is going to replace that.
(2) We can because Scripture applies to all those things, teaching us--among other things--not to be preoccupied with them; e.g.,
work - 1 Cor. 3:10-15; Col. 3:23
finances - Ecc. 5:10; Isa. 55:2; Luke 12:34; 1 Tim. 6:10
politics - Rom. 13:1-7
insecurity - Psalm 27:3; 2 Tim. 1:7
war - Psalm 68:30; 76:3; 140:2 and yet Psalm 144:1; Prov. 20:18; 24:6

Apart from Scripture, knowledge of Christ--and therefore what it means to be a Christian--is severely wanting.

Again, not to be argumentative ... but it seems to me that the Ecc, Isa, Psalm and Proverbs quotes predate Jesus and Christianity
 

james1611

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going with sean on this...

Sean, I wonder, is that nutshell all there is to being a Christian, is it really that simple? (I’m not being critical, just thinking out loud electronically.) What about all the other stuff Jesus reportedly said like “Follow me” “Believe in Me” – what about forgiving and loving one’s enemies? What about all the other things He said about life and relationships; don’t they somehow define a Christian? Were they just empty words? Are we not going to be held accountable for anything more than self-denial? Just wondering …. Jim

Dadburnett--

I'm going to have to agree with Sean--"Those who follow Jesus"
After all, it's not just self denial...anyone may profess, anyone may do good works, but it is in following Jesus that we find we are doing the will of the Father...where we are truly led by the spirit...where we forgive...where we seek his rightousness...where we mortify the deeds of the flesh...where we love our neighbor as ourself...where we love God with all of our heart, mind, soul and strength. All of this is encompassed in "following Jesus."

Now: how do we come to follow him? We put our sincere faith him him, repenting (turning) of/from our sins. We are regenerated by the Holy spirit, born again as we are cleansed by the blood of Christ sacrifice for our sin. Then as a new creature we CAN follow him.

James
 

matdonna

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When He was asked to define things (like "Who is my neighbour?"), the Lord usually answered not with a definition, but with a story. ;-)

and come to that-- as in the story alluded to above-- He sometimes didn't answer the question that was asked, but a different question....
 

matdonna

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It's also worth noting that Our Lord did not invent the term "Christian". It was a slur against those who followed Him by their enemies, the pagans and Jews of the day who rejected their preaching ('they were first called Christians at Antioch'). The Roman government declared (at what point I'm not sure) "Christians may not exist". At that point "Christians" meant, not those who believed something in their hearts, but who were identifiable as members of this _religio illicita_ . They were identified because they got together on a Sunday and ate bread and drank wine identified with their founder's body and blood; and when they were caught doing that and arrested and commanded to burn a pinch of incense in homage to the Emperor, they refused.

quite the act for us to follow in these easier days!
 

Sean D. Schaffer

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Two part question for the sake of discussion:
What are His commandments?
Do we really follow, walk in his footsteps if we are preoccupied witht the stuff of life - work, finances, politics, insecurity and war?

In John 1:1, the Bible says, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

Later on in that same chapter, the Bible says, "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us."

Of course, this is talking about Christ. And I think this is the thing a lot of people miss, both in and outside of Christianity. Jesus is the Word of God. As such, any Scriptural commandment can be rightly attributed to Christ.

For this reason, I believe that all of the Old Testament, as well as the New, are part of Christ.

If this is the case, then the commandments of Christ are the commandments of all the Bible.

But we can't in and of ourselves, keep with perfection all the commandments of the Bible. It's humanly impossible to do that. So, like others have pointed out, we need a Savior, and when we accept Christ, He gives us His righteousness so that, when we do fail, we will be able to get back up again and move on.

So Christ's idea of Christianity is to follow Christ. Not only is He the Son of the living God; He also is the Word of the living God. If we follow the Word, we're following Christ and thus, are what He defines as 'Christian'.

:)


This is a good thread. I'm highly enjoying the discussion. :)


--Sean
 

dadburnett

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It seems to me that one sometimes hears Christians speak in “divine” generalities when it comes to getting down to the nitty-gritty of whether or not they are a believer and true follower of Christ Jesus. Standing before the judgment seat seems to indicate a more detailed, specific accounting than that of following, believing and serving. It seems to me that there has to be some specificity, some basis upon which believing and following is quantified and judged.
It seems some Christians isolate themselves from what is really constitutes being “of Christ” of having the “mind of Christ” by avoiding the details. Jesus (and the NT writers) clearly went beyond speaking of belief and following, of repenting and being forgiving; Matthew 12:36 speaks to our having to account for EVERY idle/careless word we utter. Rev 20:13 speaks to our being judged by our deeds/works. So, I wonder, wouldn’t that definition of what a true Christian is to endeavor to be include more than what has been said so far in this thread?
I wonder if some Christians use the less specific statements of Jesus as a way of excusing their shortcomings, avoiding having to be cognizant of and responsible for every deed and for every word. Are we not going to have to account for not turning the other cheek, or not feeding and clothing the poor? Or, have we simply invested in an umbrella salvation insurance clause of death bed repentance, saying, a Christian really does not have to be overly concerned with words and works because he/she can repent and be forgiven. If that’s the case, doesn’t that seem to negate the importance of Christ’s commandments, like love your enemy? Are we not going to have to account for all of our unloving thoughts of our enemy?
 

Sean D. Schaffer

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It seems to me that one sometimes hears Christians speak in “divine” generalities when it comes to getting down to the nitty-gritty of whether or not they are a believer and true follower of Christ Jesus. Standing before the judgment seat seems to indicate a more detailed, specific accounting than that of following, believing and serving. It seems to me that there has to be some specificity, some basis upon which believing and following is quantified and judged.
It seems some Christians isolate themselves from what is really constitutes being “of Christ” of having the “mind of Christ” by avoiding the details. Jesus (and the NT writers) clearly went beyond speaking of belief and following, of repenting and being forgiving; Matthew 12:36 speaks to our having to account for EVERY idle/careless word we utter. Rev 20:13 speaks to our being judged by our deeds/works. So, I wonder, wouldn’t that definition of what a true Christian is to endeavor to be include more than what has been said so far in this thread?
I wonder if some Christians use the less specific statements of Jesus as a way of excusing their shortcomings, avoiding having to be cognizant of and responsible for every deed and for every word. Are we not going to have to account for not turning the other cheek, or not feeding and clothing the poor? Or, have we simply invested in an umbrella salvation insurance clause of death bed repentance, saying, a Christian really does not have to be overly concerned with words and works because he/she can repent and be forgiven. If that’s the case, doesn’t that seem to negate the importance of Christ’s commandments, like love your enemy? Are we not going to have to account for all of our unloving thoughts of our enemy?

I'll come back later on and see if I can't answer your question. Right now I just woke up and can't think straight without my coffee. :)

Lively discussion, and very thought-provoking.


--Sean
 

Sean D. Schaffer

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Dadburnett,

Your questions are as old as time itself, and I don't think any natural human being really knows the answer to it. Because of this, only the Spirit can answer your question.

Thankfully, the Spirit does speak through God's Word. :) So I'm going to give your question the best answer I know of.

The Bible, on one hand, says "For by grace are ye saved through faith..." --Ephesians 2:8.

On the other hand, James says, "Faith, without works, is dead being alone." --James 2:17

So which is it? Faith? Or works?

I contend that we are justified by both, not by one or the other. Faith and works are not mutually exclusive. As it is written, in James 2:18-24:

18 Yea, a man may say, thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without my works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God, thou does well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was call the friend of God.
24 Ye see then, how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only?

I'm going to stop there, and point out that the Bible never says that Faith alone can save you. Neither does it say that Works alone can save you. Rather, the Bible tells us that Faith, combined with Works, is what justifies us. We are forgiven when we accept Christ. However, that does not make us perfect. It simply gives us a second chance, as it were.

But notice again in Verse 22:

Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

If I understand this Scripture properly, it's saying that works makes faith perfect. James is pointing out that we can claim to be spiritual, and still be very much unspiritual in our lives. Like Jesus said, "Wouldst thou remove the mote out of thy brother's eye, and beholdest thou not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first remove the beam that is in thine own eye, then thou shalt see clearly to remove the mote out of thy brother's eye."

We can be filled with faith until the cows come home. But works is what makes our faith real, both to others and to God. It's our proving ground through which God sees if we are real or fake. True faith not only believes that Christ is the Son of the living God; it also acts on belief to make others' lives richer and better.

What would Christianity be, if we only had faith? We would be a dead religion.

What would Christianity be, if we only had works? We would be a legalistic monolith that would be trying and convicting everyone of some crime or another.

But what is Christianity with faith and works? It is real Christianity, really following Christ, really living as He lived and being what He called us to be. Whether it be feeding the hungry, giving to the poor, clothing the naked, or whatever other service He wants us involved in; Christianity is not just having faith, but doing the works of Him that saved us.

So really, the question of whether salvation is of faith or of works, really is not a fair question. This is because salvation is of both, not one or the other.


Without faith it is impossible to please Him -- Hebrews 11:6
AND
Faith, if it hath not works, is dead being alone -- James 2:17

So it's both, according to Scripture. As hard as it is for us to hold to that, faith and works come together to bring the glories of Christ Jesus to a dying world.


--Sean
 

BruceJ

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Again, not to be argumentative ... but it seems to me that the Ecc, Isa, Psalm and Proverbs quotes predate Jesus and Christianity
It may seem on the surface; however, Christ--as an eternal personage of the Godhead--predates everything. He was as active in the Old Testament as he was in the New Testament (Col. 1:16; Heb. 1:2). His role as the incarnate "Christ"--the Messiah--was not manifested until the New Testament, but doesn't mean he was kept on the bench until the second half. Additionally, Jesus attested to the veracity of the Old Testament in his preaching and teaching--and therefore his commandments--and so they would never be at odds with Scripture. He matures the Law and brings it to completion, but does not negate it (Matt. 5:17)
 

dadburnett

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It may seem on the surface; however, Christ--as an eternal personage of the Godhead--predates everything. He was as active in the Old Testament as he was in the New Testament (Col. 1:16; Heb. 1:2). His role as the incarnate "Christ"--the Messiah--was not manifested until the New Testament, but doesn't mean he was kept on the bench until the second half. Additionally, Jesus attested to the veracity of the Old Testament in his preaching and teaching--and therefore his commandments--and so they would never be at odds with Scripture. He matures the Law and brings it to completion, but does not negate it (Matt. 5:17)

Okay, this is a bit off track but I wonder about the O.T. eye for and eye and the N.T. love your enemy. Seems to me Jesus might have put a new spin on some things and perhaps negated the eye for an eye stuff.
And, why is it, I wonder why Christians not longer pluck out their eyes or cut off their hands or let themselves be martyers for His sake?
 
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