SF/F stories that do not need to be written.... [Archive]

preyer

03-21-2005, 10:49 AM

this happens more on the 'net than on the bookshelves (but not always), but what kind of stories have you seen so many times and in so many ways that it can hardly be expounded on?

i mentioned in another thread that for me it's the 'princess escapes/is thrown out/is usurped and has to live on her own. she learns about life, makes friends, and eventually returns to take back her crown.' usually, there are some friends thrown into the mix, characters you can see the author basing on friends and people in her high school class, maybe a teacher. another is indiana jones fanfics involving crystal skulls.

good gravy, people, can ya not think of anything better to write about?

another entire milieu of stories i can't bear anymore is vampires. oh, i know plenty of people still love this stuff, but, man, a person can only take so much, ya know? lol. post-apocalyptic stories where mankind is wiped-out from disease are usually pretty lame, too. some of them are like, 'have you even *thought* about what would happen if you woke up tomorrow and everyone was dead or dying?' 'let's go car shopping!' is about as bad a first-response as you can get.

i can't hardly say i'm sick of these stories because about three were enough to last a lifetime, these 'stories' without plot, characterization, any sense whatsoever. you know the kind i'm talking about, where flying submarines on their way to get tofu chili dogs and psi-cola and piloted by the author as the main character, betty boop, and some obscure cyberpunk thing, are shot down by roses fired from a long-haired hippie turtle's butt. please, these things are stupid, boring, and pointless, and the fact that you wrote one doesn't mean you should expect people to read it, so why shop it around to every third website with a writing forum as were you looking for a movie deal?

whew. rant over. thanks for listening.

DaveKuzminski

03-22-2005, 12:07 AM

There are no ideas that can't or shouldn't be tried. How will you or anyone else know whether you have an interesting new twist on something if you don't write and then shop it around?

A good writer can make even a worn idea new or entertaining, again.

Jamesaritchie

03-22-2005, 02:31 AM

Zane Curtis

03-22-2005, 03:11 AM

Dave's point about good writers not withstanding, I would die happy if I never read another epic fantasy that sounds like a retread of The Lord of the Rings.

DaveKuzminski

03-22-2005, 04:00 AM

Does that mean I should dump my The Duke of the Triangles? ;)

Pthom

03-22-2005, 05:01 AM

Long live Oblio.

Zane Curtis

03-22-2005, 05:02 AM

Does that mean I should dump my The Duke of the Triangles? ;)

Ah, I can see it now...

Cue the orchestra! The musicians take a first look at the new symphony. The Duke of the Triangles takes his instrument in hand and steps up to the score. The first bar is a rest. The second bar is a rest. He scans the first page, then starts to flip through the score -- rests, all rests. Then at the end of bar 128, he gets to play one lousy note. It's marked "Piano". A triangle? Piano? Piano?!?

"I'm sick to death of this," he says, theatrically stamping his foot. "I won't put up with it. In fact, I don't have to put up with it, because I know where the conductor keeps the score. Nobody will notice if I slip a page or two extra in. Huh! This symphony is going to have something entirely unprecedented in the history of classical music -- a triangle solo!"

Evil laughter rings through the chamber.

preyer

03-22-2005, 09:49 AM

hey, if it's possible to make vampires new and refreshing, i'd look at it. 'if' being the biggest word in the english language, lol.

come on, y'all, isn't there *something* you're sick to death of seeing regurgitated over and over and over and over again? 'refreshing' often means 'oh, i haven't seen this idea in ten years. i'll reminensce.' sure, i imagine there is a good vamp story out there.

somewhere.

it's just a matter of slogging through the swamp of average-ness at best and weighing the search against the finding a good story. it would have to be a quest i'd really have to be into.

i'm with zane, i'll more than likely never pick up another LOTR-type trilogy again. maybe if it got absolutely rave reviews and recommended to me personally, otherwise, i mean, what's the point of reading the *exact* same thing yet once more? i'm actually pretty easy to entertain, i just know what i like, and the abovementioned stories are, to me -- stories that do not need to be written. ...with the caveat that they suck, which most of them do. :)

Mr Underhill

03-22-2005, 11:01 AM

Well, there are a couple of things I'm considerably sick of myself. But I won't get into writing off whole plots and milieus - after all, one hates to think what would have happened had QE1 looked at Hamlet and said, "What? Yet another rip-off of Kidd's Spanish Tragedy?" Still you do have a point that any fantasy book that starts off with the mysterious and ancient mage/druid/mystic showing up to pull the young halfthing/gnome/bobbit away from his peaceful village to defeat the imminent destruction of everything good and true by the Evil Lord of Death/Hell/Evil-Land... Well it's probably not going to be particularly clever in its writing either, is it now? (Yes, I'm looking at you, Terry Brooks.)

But here's one thing that gets me down: the writers who try to fit as many exotic names and made-up words in a sentence as it can syntactically bear, with a minimum of one per line. Now, I love exotic words and foreign languages. I'm never happier than wandering through the wild places in the Balkans that still suffer from the Great Vowel Famine of Ought Nine. That's not the problem at all.

But you know what I'm talking about - the prose that reads like Young Kelliri would now have to face the wrath of Klang-Trimeton, the evil Lord of the plane of Rughfeqra. Unless Rutedno the Werchuk made it though the swamps of Fasgizz in time, that is. The difnu-flies would be a menace there. Kelliri reached out to Rutedno with the krilaling but got no answer...Or, to pick a particular sub-set of this class, anything written by AA Attanasio.

Which brings to mind another serious problem: SF novels written by people with no earthly idea about actual science. You know the problem: earthlike planets turn up in the middle of space with no star nearby or other source of warmth, breathable oxygen atmospheres on worlds with no life, alien critters who breed and grow with no respect for conservation of mass, and so on. I mean, if it would take a PhD in her own specialty to find the problem, no big deal. But if you're going to write science fiction, know enough science to explain what's going on, or at least know your limitations. It's not whether something is scientifically "impossible" (a nonsensical concept, actually), it's whether the world you're spinning is plausible. And that's something any fiction writer needs to bear in mind. It's a question of respect for the reader.

preyer

03-22-2005, 11:37 AM

well said. personally, i like vampires. i liked them more the first thousand times i read them, though. thing is, if i'm getting a mere 5% something new/interesting/entertaining that i haven't been able to get in excess already, what's my incentive? it's real tough sometimes to find something good in a sea of vomitous dribble. even when these stories are well-written doesn't necessarily mean they're *interesting*.

vampire-hunters. oo. really expanding the limits of your imagination? i sure hope not. it makes for cool video games and popcorn flicks.

i don't mind unusual names. i *mind* unpronouncable names, though. a pet peeve of mine is learning a new dictionary of terms that are basically just rip-offs of what the word means in real-life. there's a point where my mind starts rejecting *fatashuyi* as a substitute for an apple when *every* common object has a new term to learn, know what i mean?

we just *need* another story that's a 95% carbon copy of a thousand others.

Mr Underhill

03-22-2005, 12:12 PM

I even like unpronounceable names. I just don't like it when an author thinks he's really showing off his creativity with how many random letters he can string together.

I could go on, but I'm really just trying to run up my post count here.

And I rather like Vampire Hunter D but the story was nonsensical to nonexistent. Van Helsing, now, what a pity. Great (original) character. Unwatchable movie.

preyer

03-22-2005, 12:21 PM

i'm a sucker for detective priests/men-of-action/warrior monks employed by rome to solve a religious issue. when those become cookie-cutter and people write them by the bucketfull, i'll add them to my list of ho-hummery.

van helsing... awful, awful movie with mile-wide potential. one of those movies you wished the studio had just given the porduction costs to charity instead. i wonder what brilliant writer got *that* novelization and if they were able to put a polish on that steaming pile.

Zane Curtis

03-22-2005, 04:04 PM

Nosferatu is still my favourite vampire movie. It was made back in the days before vampires had been done to death.

whitehound

03-22-2005, 05:13 PM

A friend of mine has very nearly finished writing the definitive vampire/occult/theological/detective thriller. It's very good and wholly original, and you should all definitely buy it when it comes out :)

My own favourite vampire film is Blood Ties, in which the vampires are actually a surviving remnant of a more predatory sub-species of Homo sapiens.

whitehound

03-22-2005, 05:23 PM

Jamesaritchie

03-23-2005, 06:22 AM

preyer

03-23-2005, 12:09 PM

Zane Curtis

03-23-2005, 02:02 PM

To some extent, I think this has something to do with the attitude you take into it. Sometimes I run across new writers who are still thinking pretty much like fans. They write fan fiction by stealth; that is, the main characters aren't called Frodo and Sam, but they might as well be. But if you approach it more like a writer, intent on developing your own ideas, there's no reason why you shouldn't be allowed to choose whatever elements are going to work for you and your story. For example, who'd have thought anyone could do anything decent with English boarding school fiction until J K Rowling came along?

Alphabeter

03-23-2005, 02:52 PM

But that story of the two aliens throw off their home planet to a nice warm rock three steps from a big star to give birth to nice little boy who like wearing any form of a moustache until a mean kid of another religion made him walk like a duck and the girl who couldn't care less about being a wife and mother until a big strong man came along to show her how long hair and castles are groovy.

Oh wait, I should have put that in Share Your Work.

fallenangelwriter

03-24-2005, 01:37 AM

preyer

03-24-2005, 02:31 PM

by plot structure, do you mean the 'hero's journey' template? yeah, pretty sick of those, too. that's why i stopped reading fantasy for a long while, because that's all it was-- padded trilogies with midgets fighting the 'great evil,' ducking dragons and trolls while the mysterious hunter lead a ragtag group of unlikely heroes around a thinly veiled europe. hey, for a movie, no problem. for a book, problem.

Jamesaritchie

03-24-2005, 06:11 PM

try telling that to those authors who just *know* their story is somehow far and away better than the thousands preceeding it, lol. james, haven't you said you've sat in your fair share of slush piles? i'm sure you've seen your share of these kinds of stories. how far did you have to read them to decide 'this is crap. next'? for some of these things, being a good writer ain't gonna be enough-- you're going to have to be a *great* writer for my money.

You're right. I usulally made it about three pages in before moving on. Yes, it does take a great writer to make something like this workable. But it happens. Far too rarely, but it happens. Every now and then you pull out a story and just can't put it down. Often the plot will be old and tired, but what the writer does with it is amazing.

And, yes, merely being good isn't enough. If you're simply good, you'd better be original, too.

zornhau

03-24-2005, 06:13 PM

Me? I hate the "young boy of low station with special powers for which he feels guilty", one of the reasons my protagonist is a 30-something knight of fearsome reputation.

That said, some of the kinds of stories you guys have been dissing, really belong to genres, e.g. complaining about vampires novels is like complaining about westerns.

Jamesaritchie

03-24-2005, 06:16 PM

there are two reasons that many boooks are like Lord of the Rings

people trying to capitalize on LotR's success by rewriting it: bad

people who understand that the epic fantasy was around before TRolkien and that it is a powerful and interesting style, and choose to write a book using the same plot structure as tolkien: good.

Not in my opinion. The same plot structure as LOTR almost always makes for bad fiction. Copying the plot structure is what gets so many writers rejected.
If you want to get away with copying the plot structure of LOTR, and some writers do get away with it, you'd better be a God Almighty good writer. You'll have to create characters so real, dialogue so good, and a story so strong that the editor and readers will overlook the plot structure.

whitehound

03-25-2005, 04:34 AM

SF and fantasy are modern takes on the traditional folk tale (all those miraculous ships, heroes who could go seven leagues at a stride, castles of glass, wizards, mechanical flying horses etc. etc.) and as such it's probably inevitable that "self-effacing boy with lowly status but miraculous powers" will be a very common theme, because it's one of the most popular and ingrained of Western folk-tales and has a starring role in our collective sub-conscious.

And the one about the band of comrades going on a quest for a magical object and battling monsters along the way is just good ole' Jason and the Argonauts.

preyer

03-25-2005, 12:04 PM

i'd give ya vampires are horror to a certain extent. it's not always the case, though, especially for some people who try to put a scientific spin on 'em. i should probably put up the disclaimer that most of my beef with vampire stories is derived from the internet, but that's not to say i've not gotten plenty sick of published vamp stories which you'll find on sci-fi/fantasy racks. the last one i managed to choke down was set in modern day nowhere, vamps cruising in muscle machines, etc.. the plot seemed to be two warring vampire factions... oh, man, i've got to stop there.

before anyone says, 'but, preyer, internut writers suck.' well, yeah, but beyond poorly written stories, the *ideas* expressed in them are what's important to bear in mind more than perfect syntax and a passive voice. a lot of vamp writers i think involuntarily write social commentary into their story by having the vamp get a disease from sucking someone's blood, problem is it's just an idea done way too much.

oh, and i hate children heroes with a passion, too. just a reminder to any writer who may have forgot: a ten year old is not a miniature adult.

preyer

03-25-2005, 01:10 PM

i can't say i'm even am sick of reading this because if i catch a whiff of the premise, i'll usually move on (though i'm sure there are plenty of good reads there), but the supercomputer-who-develops-a-soul isn't for me. i've just never liked that as a basis for a book for some reason. i couldn't even watch all of A.I..

Zane Curtis

03-25-2005, 01:30 PM

the last one i managed to choke down was set in modern day nowhere, vamps cruising in muscle machines, etc.. the plot seemed to be two warring vampire factions... oh, man, i've got to stop there.

If I was in a less than generous mood, I'd suspect something like that is a write up of a Vampire - The Gathering campaign. Back in the day, D&D players used to write up their campaigns with equally dire results.

whitehound

03-25-2005, 03:37 PM

oh, and i hate children heroes with a passion, too. just a reminder to any writer who may have forgot: a ten year old is not a miniature adult.
Depends on the period and the social class. Children in the Middle Ages were regarded as (and trained to be) precisely that from age seven. Historically, the future Richard III commanded his first army when he was twelve - OK, not in battle, but it *was* during a war and he had to march them from one end of the country to the other, maintain discipline, arrange pay and billetting etc. and that was seen as fairly normal for a young nobleman. His future rival Henry VII's mother was only twelve years older than her son and that was also seen as quite normal then - so a ten-year-old would be seen as about equivalent to sixteen in our terms.

Consider the psychology of the quite young children who are currently being kidnapped and trained to kill by fanatical political movements in Africa.

DaveKuzminski

03-25-2005, 05:16 PM

I have to agree with Whitehound. Childhood as we know it is a much extended version of what was experienced by children in most earlier civilizations. Reach five or six in those and you were expected to contribute to the common good. There were always plenty of small tasks that children could do well that they were expected to perform.

I don't mind a writer including children in a story, but I do prefer that the writer treat them correctly for the degree of technology and socialization present in the story. In other words, children aren't going to go head-to-head with experienced warriors, but they can still have some shining moments when they do something significant.

preyer

03-26-2005, 01:15 AM

fallenangelwriter

03-26-2005, 07:21 PM

does your distaste for child heroes rest on their physical or phsychological limitations?

if it's simply that children can't accomplish as much, that can be- and has been- overcome before. children can inadvertantly become very important. for instance, in starswarm, the young protagonist is the only one with an implanted communicator to talk to the supercomputer. in fantasy, children can have magical powers, or accidentally come into possession fo a powerful artifact.

if it's temperament, then i would agree in part. children are not going to act just like adults, but i can still see them acting as heroes to a more limited extent.

actually, i have in my folder of stories i haven't got around to writing yet about just this idea. it's a fantasy story in which a very young sorcereress (maybe 8 or 10) creates an army of children to fight against the bad guys. they study magic with her, practice geurilla tactics, etc. the children actually fight pretty successfully, but only by giving up thier childishness. ultimately, the sorcereress decides that she's failed. she wanted to show the world that children can do great things, but they did it by ceasig to be children.

preyer

03-26-2005, 11:53 PM

we all have our plots and story elements we dislike. children are simply one of them to me. like when ten year old kids beat up 300 pound guards-- with their fists, no less-- that it really strains my suspension of disbelief. in this same vein, 'the chosen one' is more often than not a child or young adult, the latter working better for me. 'prophecy' stories are something else i'm rather bored with.

anyone trying to guarantee i'll not buy their book should write about a child whose prophecy is to destroy the vampires. throw in lots of time travel and ESP, too. of course, the vampires are led by a super-computer/unsane consciousness. and the vampire don't drink blood, they get their viruses by sucking electricity off the internut. sounds awesome... awesomely bad, lol.

whitehound

03-27-2005, 03:43 AM

that also follows into the misconception that by 16, women were married off b/c by 18 they were old. or that all girls were pregnant by 14. simply balderdash.

that's not to say children didn't pull their weight, and by that virtue they weren't more responsible, but it's simple ridiculous to suggest a ten year old didn't run around playing with his friends and possibly have toys.
It's a matter of historical record that the English aristocracy in the late middle ages married very young - in some cases as young as three. If we take the example of Richard III he himself commanded an army when he was twelve, his rival Henry Tudor was only twelve years younger than his own mother, and Richard's bastard daughter Kate was married at fifteen and dead in childbirth at sixteen. When they married, Richard was twenty and his wife Anne was sixteen - but he was her *second* husband. This was fairly typical of the period: for example there's a letter extant from a late 15th C merchant, himself in his 30s, writing a very pleasant and jolly letter to his fiancée who was twelve at the time - though afair they didn't marry till she was fourteen or fifteen.

There's a record from that time (can't remember exact reference) of a seven year old boy being told to "put aside childish things" (i.e. toys) now that he is seven. Indeed aristocratic boys were sent to be squires at seven and this was serious hard work. I don't doubt that young squires played games of tag and football and so on but they probably didn't have much in the way of what we would think of as toys, other than those used in athletic sport. If it comes to that I don't think seven-year-old boys at English public schools would have much in the way of toys, except footballs, cricket bats etc. The extended childhood, with toys, is really a Victorian invention.

The fact that in a state of nature we hit puberty in our mid teens is a sure sign that nature intended us to start breeding in our mid to late teens. People in poorer areas/communities no doubt didn't have children until they were in their late teens or early twenties because a poor diet delays puberty, but the aristocracy had a rich diet, hit puberty quite young and started reproducing as soon as it was biologically feasible.

[And we have nowadays achieved a diet so rich that children are hitting puberty way before they are emotionally and musculo-skeletally ready for it, which is worrying.]

However, I agree it's a misconception that people were considered old at 18 - or at 35. First off, the average age at death was very low but that's because there were so many infant deaths: if people survived childhood they probably lived to about fifty. And they weren't thought of as really old at fifty - you were old at about sixty-five-plus but most people never got to be old - which was why those who did were so highly valued.

Zane Curtis

03-27-2005, 05:03 AM

For a good child protagonist, look to Gormenghast by Mervyn Peake. At the beginning of that book it's protagonist, Titus Groan, is seven years old. It works because even though he is a child with adult responsibilities, he remains a child, and behaves like one. In fact, it wouldn't actually work with an adult protagonist, because it's Titus' childish impulsiveness that drives the story.

Mr Underhill

03-27-2005, 05:29 AM

Gormenghast! What a wonderful book. Extremely influential on so many better-known fantasy and horror writers. You will pick up nods to the sublime Mr Peake throughout both genres.

Anaparenna

03-27-2005, 08:11 AM

I was always amazed by Titus Groan, the first in the trilogy, in which its own protagonist was, IMO, almost completely not a part of the story (which, I suppose, might argue against his being the true protagonist in some ways. Who's the alternative? Steerpike? Flay?). In that first book he's just born, and I think only reaches toddler-hood by the end. It's only his existence, and to narrow it down even further, his birth, which became the catalyst for the events in Book I, not anything that he does (except perhaps to drop the "holy" stone and ivy branch into the lake on the day of his ascension). It's been a long, long time since I read it (and therefore my memories go with a grain of salt and all), but I remember that standing out to me afterward, and it's still something I've never seen done again. IIRC, it wasn't until his fascination with Keda's daughter in Gormenghast that he began to influence much consciously. But up until then it was, as you say, his childish impulsiveness that drove the story, if only because the family and servants were so intent on seeing meaning and portent in everything he did.

It's always nice to meet other Gormenghast fans. :) And I agree that Titus was very well done.

Oh, and to stay on topic, I don't fancy "frame" stories that begin with some mysterious person sitting by the fire at an inn telling a story in which they end up figuring heavily. Just seen too many of them, I think.

MacAllister

03-27-2005, 08:14 AM

The Princess Bride frame worked very well, though...

Anaparenna

03-27-2005, 08:30 AM

The Princess Bride frame worked very well, though...

Oh yes, very well! I was actually being specific, not condemning frame stories in general. Mysterious stranger walks into medieval tavern or inn, sits down by fire, and begins to tell a story. Mysterious stranger has a scar, or missing finger, or something similar which, upon hearing the story, clues us into the mysterious stranger's involvement in the story.

Er, it might just be me. ;)

Zane Curtis

03-27-2005, 04:29 PM

Anaparenna

03-28-2005, 07:26 AM

I find some of the ideas there rather interesting, particularly its quasi-modern setting (China Miéville, anyone?)
I hadn't thought of it, but I think I see where you're going with it. :) Very interesting. I may have to go back and read that third book. It's the tragically underrated one of the series, it seems.

preyer

03-28-2005, 11:24 AM

Zane Curtis

03-28-2005, 11:34 AM

I hadn't thought of it, but I think I see where you're going with it. :) Very interesting. I may have to go back and read that third book. It's the tragically underrated one of the series, it seems.

There's a character in Titus Alone who's a writer. He's never sold a single one of his books. He just carries them around with him wherever he goes. They even have Publish America in fantasyland. Who'd have thought?

:D

Terra Aeterna

03-29-2005, 04:38 AM

it's probably inevitable that "self-effacing boy with lowly status but miraculous powers" will be a very common theme, because it's one of the most popular and ingrained of Western folk-tales and has a starring role in our collective sub-conscious.

I agree that certain archetypal characters and themes tend to get a lot of replay because they are so attractive to our subconscious. These things manage to speak very powerfully to the experience of being human. But you can't be lazy or sloppy with those kinds of tales or they lose their power and become caricatures instead of archetypes. :)

preyer

03-29-2005, 10:59 AM

not only our subconscious but our comfort level, too. i think to a certain extent we like stories to be predictable. if it surprises us, great, but that's certaily not a requirement to get published... just maybe to get remembered. perhaps the reader feels a kind of power, or empowerment?, when cruising through the same old hash.

and as writers, as long as we write a good story, we're comfortable in the idea that we may not be exactly setting the world on fire, but we're entertaining or trying to say something or both.

i started this thread to show what i consider to be the far end of the spectrum, where writers have gotten too complacent with that comfortable area. at this point, what i see in, say, 99% of vampire stories is just a breeding ground for mediocrity. can i do better? no, that's why i don't write vampire stories, lol. robots developing a soul, too, is something i can simply live without. it's frustrating to have a genre/s where you can do anything conceivable and what's on the shelves is just basically more of the same time travel/robots/space opera kind of stuff. we strive to thrive in a culture of variations because we're convinced everything has already been done.

'plot doesn't matter' is about the most ignorant thing i can imagine a writer ever saying. i'd like to see some derivatives that are a little less common, and i think we are seeing that little by little on the book shelves (though it's been awhile since looking for a book in a bookstore in earnest when i can get 'em for a quarter at the library book fair).

is it time to beam the star trek franchise into dead space and put star wars in carbon freeze?

Zane Curtis

03-29-2005, 11:13 AM

is it time to... put star wars in carbon freeze?

George Lucas seems to be doing that well enough by himself. :)

allion

03-29-2005, 06:47 PM

I'll let you know after I see Episode 3 in May...

Karen

Zane Curtis

03-30-2005, 03:34 AM

I'll let you know after I see Episode 3 in May...

Well, you're more patient than I am. I gave up on the franchise after I saw the Ewoks. :Wha:

Still, Mad Magazine got a fair bit of mileage out of them at the time. :D

Terra Aeterna

03-30-2005, 04:38 AM

'plot doesn't matter' is about the most ignorant thing i can imagine a writer ever saying. i'd like to see some derivatives that are a little less common, and i think we are seeing that little by little on the book shelves (though it's been awhile since looking for a book in a bookstore in earnest when i can get 'em for a quarter at the library book fair).

is it time to beam the star trek franchise into dead space and put star wars in carbon freeze?

I'm right with you on the plot thing. I don't mind certain repeating themes or settings or character archetypes, but if you can't impress my socks off with your story, then I'm not going to waste my time on you. I'm mostly an SF reader, but for a while I was really hooked on Regency Romances. The problem with them was in order to get one stellar gem of a Regency I'd have to skim about 10 bad ones. I'm grumpy; I don't have time to waste on 10 books for the hope of one good one. Now I don't read Regencies, vampire novels, or Fantasy unless they come recommended by someone I trust.

DaveKuzminski

03-30-2005, 07:08 AM

Yes, unfortunately, the Ewoks were necessary to spread the franchise to younger ages that might have been scared otherwise. It wasn't the best handled I've seen, but it was far from bad. In other words, they mostly succeeded.

Still, I think they should have kept all of the episodes on the same level of sophistication, meaning the same audience as far as age goes.

preyer

03-30-2005, 10:33 AM

from a storytelling perspective, star wars is interesting to watch how the storytelling, lucas, progressed (or degenerated) through the saga. technology aside, you can really see where 'return of the jedi' had the seeds of the prequels at least in his story method. that is, none of us should be surprised with EPI after seeing the travesty known as ROTJ.

the level of sophistication is interesting to note there, too. that's why 'the empire strikes back' is considered the best of the lot by most critical standards (of course, 'the second act' is usually the most interesting in general, anyway, it's been said a million times).

one problem i've always had with lucas' storytelling method is he makes everything very, ah, circular? what i mean by that is in an entire universe, he'll make everyone know or be related to everyone else by some oftentimes awful means, like how vader built threepio. ugh. we give 'im luke as vader's son and leia as luke's sister, but, jeez, that's where it should end for me. at some point you have to rein it in before lando becomes boba fett's half-brother. in storytelling in general, i can only buy a certain amount of far-fetched, tenuous relationships if the characters have to be brought together from the near and far. obviously a lot of people don't mind. then again, when you get whupped by 'spider-man' in the box office....

i looked very briefly at the fiction section of the local super-mega-monster store this evening, didn't find anything promising, but their selection is pretty small. i plan on hitting the bookstore sometime this week. hopefully something interesting will be on the shelves.

if a theme pops up during the course of the story, i'll follow it more often than not. otherwise, i just try to let the story tell itself. i can't recall ever sitting down with a theme in mind first, then working up a plot and characters around it. i don't avoid them, i just don't give them lots of consideration before writing. i do like obscure symbolism just for my own entertainment, not expecting anyone to really pick up on the significance of a carven frog on a tombstone as it relates to cemetary art in 19th century blah blah blah if my MC is playing with his niece's kermit doll.

i try to be as entertaining as i can first. if something i write sparks some thought, hey, great... there just may be a slim chance in hell that's what i was aiming for. i don't want themes and that stuff to overpower the story and more than i want my foreshadowing to tell the reader exactly and without doubt how the story is going to end. the fanfic i posted i had always tossed and turned about because i thought the foreshadowing was too obvious.

in conclusion, ewoks suck.

whitehound

03-30-2005, 12:49 PM

Wh, you're talking about aristocracy while i'm talking the average. those married young did so more as a result of planned marriages than the tinkerer's daughter because she was 17 and getting long in the tooth. what you seem to be deriving a lot of your facts are from the 15th century, while i'm taking most of mine from the tudor era/elizabethean era (late 15th to early 17th century).
But we were talking about how children/teenagers are portrayed in fantasy - and most fantasy I've come across was set in a version of the Dark or Middle Ages, not the Renaissance. And don't forget that Romeo was supposed to be 14 and Juliet 12 - and since these to us very young ages aren't particularly remarked on in the play, presumably to Shakesperean audiences there was nothing very odd about this.

Actually, in the late Middle Ages, the aristocracy married very young for both sexes in order to secure the ownership of land, but in the merchant class men tended to marry at about 30, once they'd established their fortune - but to girls of 15.

Early marriage has been, and sometimes still is, the norm in many societies. Why do you think that in Judaism boys are considered adult at 13 and girls at 12? A very brief Google on "age at marriage" led me to reports that in Maharashtra, India, in 1989 the median age at marriage for girls was 14.5 (that is, there were as many girls getting married younger than 14.5 as older); that in Niger in 1992 the legal minimum age for marriage for girls was 16 but 93% were married by 20, and so on.

you're right, children are hitting puberty earlier, though not necessarily because our diet is any better. the theory i've heard last being bandied about was because the steroids put into meat to make cows grow fatter faster are the cause of early development.
Could be. I have long suspected that the spate of attacks by aggressive dogs in Britain in the late '80s/early '90s was the result of hormone-laden meat-residues ending up in pet-food.

We have quite strict controls on this sort of thing now and the streets are still full of12-year-olds who look more like 20. But of course, there's a lot of industrially-derived hormone residues in the water as well.

let's say a couple of children married 12. you wouldn't write about them having the same arguments as their parents or in the same manner unless you specified they were mimicking their parents, eh?
In societies where children marry at 12 and have the same worries as older couples, I would expect them to talk about what worried them - pregnancy, housing, finances - just as in our society they talk about exams and boy/girlfriends. I would not, however, expect them to be as sensible and level-headed about it as one would hope an older couple would be, because they are less experienced.

There are worries at the moment because girls *as young as four* are being encouraged by some promotional firms to obsess about clothes, weight and boyfriends, and some are doing so. When the legal age of consent in Britain is 16, and yet I have a baby-faced 13-year-old boy in my shop trying to persuade me to sell him ginseng because he has heard that "it make[s] girls horny," why is it surprizing that in societies where it was legal to marry at 12 (or more commonly at about 14) those who did so acted as their society had raised them to act?

preyer

03-31-2005, 02:19 AM

if i may use your own argument against you, since you claim most fantasy centres around a middle-ages/dark ages setting, the marriage age of siam really doesn't have much to do with it, eh? lol.

i'm not sure i buy totally into the statement about the setting. sure, castles and knights in armour are overwhelmingly present, though i'm as apt to find a tudor-ish village as a village of straw huts. if the trappings stand to imply a social attitude equatable to real history, that attitude is very poorly represented in most fantasy. in the trappings, too, i used to find quite technology being 'too new' for an european dark ages setting except when it comes to medicine.

whitehound

03-31-2005, 02:41 AM

Straw huts would be Bronze Age, not Mediaeval! Mediaeval villages were fairly sophisticated, with proper furniture etc. (come to that, some Stone Age villages in the UK were quite sophisticated and had e.g. Welsh dressers, with ornaments on, and saunas). I suspect you may be confused as to what goes with what period - what technology are you thinking of, particularly, as being anachronistic?

Often, there was an uneven distribution of technology. We think of Mediaeval medicine as very basic, for example, but the 12th C monastic hospital of Soutra in the Scottish Borders was using general anaesthetics (albeit ones which carried what we would consider to be an an unacceptably high risk of not waking up ever).

preyer

03-31-2005, 03:24 AM

'Part of the effect of Shakespearean tragedy is a sense of hyperbole, that one is watching something above or beyond the ordinary. In terms of status, neither Romeo nor Juliet is of outstanding importance in their society; it is their extreme youth that gives the tragedy much of its force--and it is probable that this effect was as true of Shakespeare's audience as of today's.'

http://ise.uvic.ca/Library/SLTnoframes/society/marriage.html

from the same page:

'The marriage age of men was probably the same or a bit older than that of women. (In 1619, it was about 23 for women, 26 for men.) The age of consent was 12 for a girl, 14 for a boy, but for most children puberty came two or three years later than it does today.' in other words, though you *could* marry that young doesn't mean it was standard practice, either. technically, there are states that you can get married in at 16, with parental permission. know how married 16 year olds i've ever met? zero. and my in-laws are from kentucky, lol, where the toothbrush was invented. anywhere else it would have been called a 'teethbrush.' there's also some information on why children of labourers married later than the theory 'we have to pop out as many kids as soon as possible because most of 'em will probably die.'

niger is also one of the few places left whose marriage age for women hasn't risen sharply. it's great to point out the extremes as long as it's not confused with being the norm. 'Still, even in sub-Saharan Africa the percentage of women married by age 20 has decreased by at least 10 percentage points in 9 of the 21 countries with survey data (see Table 5).'

http://www.infoforhealth.org/pr/j41/j41chap1_4.shtml

'The purpose of this paper is to provide a very general overview of Christian wedding customs in Western Europe during the Middle Ages and Renaissance. Most of the sources I found were in agreement that little is known of wedding customs and practices prior to the tenth or eleventh century.' i'm assuming this pertains strictly to christian wedding practices, and the author admits to not being able to read french and italian, limiting her first-hand research. (it's also worth noting that some cultures practiced concubinage during the dark ages. getting married at 12 or 10 or 4 didn't always entail sexual relations for any purpose than to continue the lineage.)

'The presence of clergy at weddings was still somewhat uncommon throughout the twelfth century, but became more standard in the thirteenth and fourteenth centuries.' ~ just thought that was interesting.

http://www.drizzle.com/~celyn/mrwp/mrwed.html

one site avers that during medieval times:

'Grooms, on the average, were much older than their brides. Noble women sometimes didn't marry until the age of 24, but this was rare. More than 3/4 were married before they reached 19. By today's standards, western Europe was inhabited by the young, with more than half of the population under 20 years of age.' http://www.medieval-weddings.net/

in the interest of fairness, 'Marriages were often arranged by fathers to secure or increase the family wealth. That's why child brides were common and most girls were married at 14.'

http://www.xtec.es/crle/02/middle_ages/alumne/scene1/activity4/activity_4.htm

note the 'creating your character' header at the top of the page, which doesn't inspire me with confidence. also, that this seems to be some kind of grade-school teaching aid, i'm even less impressed, it seeming to be along the lines of how we teach kids about what great folk the pilgrims were (i.e. historic BS).

'In 1371, due to the plague, the average age at marriage for men was 24, and for women it was 16. By 1427, the average male of all classes did not wed til he was in his mid-30's, usually choosing a bride about half his age. Rich girls seemed to marry at a younger age than poor girls.' so, mid-thirties, say 35, means he married a girl still around 16 or 17, right? anyone who's around kids or can remember being one themselves, knows there's a huge difference there.

http://marriage.about.com/cs/teenmarriage/a/teenmarriage.htm

preyer

03-31-2005, 03:57 AM

no, i'm not confused at all. how many bronze-age villages that are supposed to represent peasant life and 'olden times' are there in fantasy where all the knights run around with iron swords, which consequently never need honing and never rust? that was my point. :) so, no, i don't expect mud huts with straw roofs to necessarily be the standard village living unit from 1066 up to near where the tudor era started in the late 15 century(sorry, unclear whether there was an era between the end of the medieval age and the tudor era. there may be, just don't know it off-hand without researching it. the war of the roses began the tudor period in 1485 (?), ending with elizabeth's death in 1603).

if someone wants to throw in castles from the medieval times with bronze age villages and have everything else seem to stem from the renaissance, hey, good luck with that. hey, it's a fantasy, after all. not a very realistic one to me, but oh, well, so it goes. :) i'm hardly a historian, but, jeez, even i can tell the difference, lol.

whitehound

03-31-2005, 04:19 AM

'In 1371, due to the plague, the average age at marriage for men was 24, and for women it was 16. By 1427, the average male of all classes did not wed til he was in his mid-30's, usually choosing a bride about half his age. Rich girls seemed to marry at a younger age than poor girls.' so, mid-thirties, say 35, means he married a girl still around 16 or 17, right? anyone who's around kids or can remember being one themselves, knows there's a huge difference there.

Um - for boys, yes, maybe. But girls mature earlier. I really don't remember myself at 12 to have been that much younger than myself at 16 - both my mother and my schoolteachers regarded me as a young woman at age 12, not a child - and certainly myself at 14/15 wasn't significantly different from myself at 16/17. At its most extreme, one of my contemporaries at school (not in my class) was having it off with her 17-year-old boyfriend - and regailing her classmates with the details - from age 11. It's possible she was an abuse victim - but it certainly sounded more as if she had simply hit puberty very early and with great force. Certainly at age 14/15 one of my classmates used to bring in her brother's Playboy mags and read them aloud to the class.

You probably won't meet many people who marry at 16 nowadays - marriage is somewhat out of fashion among the young.

MadScientistMatt

04-05-2005, 07:50 PM

Back to the original topic, I'd say one kind of story that needs to be buried is anything where one of the major plot points can be described as "Space aliens built the Pyramids." The original question is strange enough - what would aliens capable of traveling countless light-years to Earth need primitive stone pyramids for? If I were an alien specing out a ship to take to a primitive planet, I would want something that could either float in an anti-gravity field so I could park it anywhere I pleased, or at least insist on it being capable of landing on sandy soil and maybe being able to land in large bodies of liquid.

DaveKuzminski

04-05-2005, 08:16 PM

The original question is strange enough - what would aliens capable of traveling countless light-years to Earth need primitive stone pyramids for?

Keep in mind that we are only now discovering ways to record information in materials that we previously dismissed as useless. For all we know, there might be hidden information in one or all of the stones that can be read only with the appropriate device. This is a thought that came to me many years ago concerning the reason for royalty having jewels and gems on their weapons and on what they wore. Aside from the beauty that some such stones imparted, how do we know that some of those weren't previously part of a technologically advanced weapon for focusing a beam or information storage device?

The ready availability and durability of stone once it can be processed to handle data would make it a standard for long term information storage systems.

preyer

04-05-2005, 08:22 PM

congrats for slogging through this entire thread.

yep, that's another one, although i'm not too familiar with that one outside the big and small screen.

i can devote a few hours to even a vampire movie if it's any good ('underworld II' i believe is coming out soon), but reading is an entirely different thing for me. oddly enough, i enjoy bad horror movies but abhor bad science fiction. i think it's because i view horror as being for fun, while sci-fi is ostensibly written by intelligent people, so i put more criticism in that, rather like the difference between a dinner theatre and ballet.

MadScientistMatt

04-05-2005, 08:33 PM

Hmmmm. That is considerably better than the usual pyramid-as-launch pad idea that I've seen that these stories usually use. A writer would still have to overcome questions about economics (How much does it cost for the aliens to launch a long-distance exploration?) and whether the aliens considered the possibility that the local savages might wind up disassembling their valuable data storage and using the stones for building sheep pens. Those are not insurmountable problems, though. Your idea goes to show that there are few ideas so bad that a good writer can't make a viable story out of them.

The trouble is that almost all the examples I have seen where aliens had something to do with the Pyramids seem to have been written by authors who did not take the time to think of the implications of their ideas. Imagine what problems alien space explorers might find if most of their ships absolutely needed pyramids to land.

preyer

04-05-2005, 09:32 PM

i think dave's idea of stone as a storage device is negated by his own idea of using gems for the same thing, particularly diamonds. (this whole idea reminds me of that bruce willis movie, 'the fifth element.') there are plenty of gems that aren't rare that you'd probably come across looking for stone anyway. if the stone you'd need to imbed info on is marble, that leaves out a lot of places in the old daze. (i actually began a story which sucked about an artist who goes unsane as he thinks the history of the world has been told in the patterns of marble and he just can't get away from that notion, even 'reading' the marble outside the courthouse on his hands and knees while his name is being called for a competency hearing.)

and, hey, the pyramids at giza have been stripped of their outer layer of stone, so, yeah, local boobery/avarice/thievery and/or necessity compells a lot of dismantling. look no further than the roman colisseum for massive 'borrowing,' in that case for marble and iron (iron bars were used for internal supports -- that's why the place now looks like swiss cheese. all those holes where were iron supports had gone). in giza's case, it's probably far easier to dismantle a pyramid than quarry new stone, shape it, then move it if it's already done for you across the street, lol.

supposedly, there is a pyramid in south america (i believe it's aztec) where it's actually a timepiece still accurate almost to the second (maybe it's a minute, i don't remember, but still, that's pretty impressive). just last night i caught a brief thing on the history channel where those folk had developed carving knives so sharp even modern technology can't improve upon (sharp down to one atom on the edge). basically, it's a process of chipping obsidion rock, which is still done and those knives used for eye surgery now.

anyway, fun theory the first thousand times around, eh? probably why they made a movie called 'stargate' about it, lol. same thing with 'constantine' (not the fake-*** american idol poseur who can't sing), which represents about every fifth internet story you see, from what i can tell of the trailer.

i'll probably give up reading entirely once the idea of emoticons coming to life becomes over-done. it might make for bad saturday afternoon fare, though.

whitehound

04-06-2005, 02:51 AM

supposedly, there is a pyramid in south america (i believe it's aztec) where it's actually a timepiece still accurate almost to the second (maybe it's a minute, i don't remember, but still, that's pretty impressive). just last night i caught a brief thing on the history channel where those folk had developed carving knives so sharp even modern technology can't improve upon (sharp down to one atom on the edge). basically, it's a process of chipping obsidion rock, which is still done and those knives used for eye surgery now.I suspect you're thinking of the Mayan calendar which was indeed fantastically accurate, but not a timepiece in the sense of a mechanical watch - just a very good system of astronomical observation and calculation.

There is nothing very magical about making obsidian knives - obsidian is just natural glass, and if you fracture it you get a sharp but brittle edge, as with most glass. It is indeed soemtimes used for delicate surgery because it takes a better edge than steel - but you can only use tiny pieces. Central American warriors used to set shards of it in wooden handles.

DaveKuzminski

04-06-2005, 04:25 AM

Actually, I was giving two examples of what might have been used for information storage or some other device. As well, the gems could be portable versions while the huge stones could be massive depositories. Still, feel free to use either or both ideas. Marry either together with the Babylonian battery and you just might have an interesting story take shape. ;)

preyer

04-06-2005, 07:43 AM

yes, it was an astronomical clock, but incredibly accurate nonetheless. it wasn't for telling you the time of day, i don't think, lol.

this particular use of obsidion was used to carve stone, producing what they on the show called simply the best examples of south american indian carving produced in that era. have to admit, the carvings were pretty spiffy. this particular pyramid was also special as it was the only known tomb of a king (in s. america, of course), part of own the most ambitious ancient cities ever, one that even had underground aqueducts. can you judge a civilization's technological progress through its sewers? lol.

whitehound

04-06-2005, 08:04 AM

Not sure about judging technological progress from sewers, unless they were especially advanced and involved pumps - but you can certainly get an idea of a culture's level of social sophistication, organization and foresight from this sort of thing.

WriteWay

04-06-2005, 01:49 PM

The ready availability and durability of stone once it can be processed to handle data would make it a standard for long term information storage systems.

As an interesting aside, in Gregory Benford's non-fiction book "Deep Time", he asserts that stone, in this case inscribing information upon it, has proven to be the best investment for long term information storage. Papers and inks have a useful life of about a century, and even modern storage technology such as CD's have a useful life of about a decade. So stone is the way to go if you going for "deep" time. The fact that we can still read Ancient Egyptian hieroglyphics and Hittite cunniform texts on stone appears to confirm this notion.

Brian

whitehound

04-06-2005, 04:02 PM

Heavy-duty, low-acid paper will last several centuries, and there are leather (parchment) books still extant and in reasonably condition that were written in the so-called Dark Ages. But stone* seems to be the only thing that will comfortably last more than about 1200 years. Most modern information-storage methods are flimsy even in comparison with paper - though vinyl records will probably last for many centuries if not exposed to heat, and old-fashioned shellac ones, provided nobody drops them, will probably last much longer than that. Ceramics (which are really a sort of processed stone) seem to have a near-infinite life.

*Oh, but not sandstone - not in a wet and acidic climate, anyway. There's a dear little 18th C Jewish cemetary in Edinburgh with sandstone headstones, and in most cases not just the lettering but much of the actual headstone has already been dissolved away by the rain.

Mac H.

04-06-2005, 05:29 PM

To get back to the original question (More on the SciFi angle) :
1. Stories about cloning Jesus from the blood on the Shroud of Turin.
2. Stories which end with a man and a woman being wrecked on a planet alone, and have to build humanity again. And right at the end we learn that his name is Adam and hers is Eve.
3. Stories which the whole mystery is that somebody is really an alien
4. Stories where at the end we discover that it just a huge Virtual Reality session and that nothing really happened.

OK - I don't REALLY mind 3 & 4, as long as it's actually an interesting story. But if the whole story relies on a twist ending, then you don't know it's an interesting story until it's over. The story has to be REALLY GOOD and then the twist ADDS TO IT.

And on the 'stone .v. CDs' argument, to quote the 'Long Now' foundation (www.longnow.org (http://www.longnow.org/)) :
"...we have good raw data from previous ages written on clay, on stone, on parchment and paper, but from the 1950s to the present, recorded information increasingly disappears into a digital gap. Historians will consider this a dark age. Science historians can read Galileo’s technical correspondence from the 1590s but not Marvin Minsky’s from the 1960s. "

DaveKuzminski

04-06-2005, 05:42 PM

Sad to think that headstones will far outlast anything else written about us.

MadScientistMatt

04-06-2005, 06:12 PM

Sad to think that headstones will far outlast anything else written about us.

Especially if you happen to be this guy:
http://www.snopes.com/photos/grave.asp

But for those with more normal friends and family remembering them, that's the best thing about a good tombstone. I remember one time as a schoolboy that I was on a field trip where we visited a cemetary and picked a grave marker to copy the writing from by putting a sheet of brown paper on it and rubbing it with a large crayon. We chose the tomb of a man who fought in the Revolutionary War.

DaveKuzminski

04-06-2005, 07:34 PM

Edit your link to remove one http:// ;)

MadScientistMatt

04-06-2005, 08:18 PM

Thanks, Dave. Seems like the "helpful" buttons work differently on each message board even when they look the same. :Smack:

preyer

04-06-2005, 09:14 PM

you guys did a 'rubbing,' which is a hobby for a lot of people. while true funerary art is hardly practiced anymore, it's interesting. modern people simply don't understand the symbolism now even on modern tombstones. it's really surprising to see a top of the line stone compared to one of just 15 years ago: now you've got lazer engraving in marble depicting accurately the person interred. while interesting, there's no art involved. otherwise, there used to be a whole huge range of symbolism. also interesting to note is that here in america, the cemetary park only came about in the 1800's (the early part, i'd have to research the actual year once again). so, you might have rev. war soldiers buried together, but everyone else were buried in family plots or connected to a church. if sarah goodewyfe is strolling along a sprawling, manicured and tranquilly-designed park in 1750 new england, that's completely off. (this isn't to be confused with a pauper's field.)

while sandstone isn't the most sturdy of rocks to begin with, it's polluted rain that's destroying the rock more than anything (by that i mean it's, ah, modern rain destroying them at a far faster rate than 'virgin' rain of a century ago). those interested in this kind of thing, that's a big worry.

i'd watched this thing on the history channel (love the history channel when they're not stuck in WWII mode) about sewers (don't ask me why i'm interested in such things), and there was this one guy saying how you can track a society's evolution through its sewage systems. that was rather laughable to me, because there are so many things you could say that applies to, too. were i watching something about footwear, they could probably make the same claim, eh? (maybe not, i don't know, buy you get my meaning, i hope.) the one thing i ever saw or read along these lines that i can get behind is the statement that the majority of what we really know about ancient civilizations is through its funerary practices, from mummies (there are even south american mummies) to throwing their dead in a bog.

back to the thing i started this thread about (if that makes any sense), yeah, stories with a 'twilight zone' ending really doesn't play with me anymore. fortunately, i don't find much of that even on the net, but that's one big reason i stopped reading SF/F mags so long ago; half the stories seemed to have that 'ironic' ending (though i'm sure that may have changed and i never cared much for asimov's). (i think the reason i don't come across much 'ironic' ending type of story anymore is because 1) it requires a modicum of forethought and 2) those who think those are great stories like to write fanfic better.)

whitehound

04-07-2005, 07:59 AM

This was a tiny little cemetary, about the size of a fair-sized living room.

Stone is great under shelter, but exposed to the elements it tends to weather and crack even without the industrial pollution aspect. To *really* store information I think you want either ceramics or pure gold - both of which last pretty-much forever unless smashed or squished or melted. Glass is also quite good, and some modern plastics. Glass certainly lasts a couple of thousand years in good nick (there are Roman glass objects which are still crisp and clear), and ceramics probably a lot longer than that - we seem to have surviving ceramics back as far as when humans first started making ceramics, still ith their markings and patterns perfectly visible.

My personal bugbear with stories is anything in which the characters seem too idealized - especially the women - especially involving beautiful women who preen themselves all the time. When I discover that in the first couple of pages the heroine is brushing her magnificant golden curls as they cascade over her creamy shoulders etc. etc. my Mary Sue alert goes off and I think oh, gawd and sling it back in the heap. Men described as having strong, manly chins are nearly as bad a sign.

preyer

04-07-2005, 12:07 PM

read any story of mine over ten thousand words and i guarantee there'll be either a charnal house or a graverobbery in there, heh heh. i want to say that in china (maybe mongolia) there's a cemetary built into the sides of a cliff. i described it horribly, but it's interesting anyway. :) it's probably something to consider more in the 'perfect society' thread.

i'd thought of gold as a storage device. it has a few advantages, like it's an excellent conductor, doesn't rust, and is relatively plentiful. the major downside is pure 24 karot gold is extremely malleable to where you could push your fingernail into it and leave a mark (according to my wife who used to work in a jewelry store). i would think that that might make it maybe too unsafe? plastic might not be too bad if you 'only' meant to keep it around for a few thousand years. the only problem i see with ceramic is it's very delicate. sure, it'll last as long as you need it to, just not against a thousand years of the elements banging on it. kept in a safe or vault, though, and it's good. there's a stone harder than a diamond... i'll ask my wife if she remembers the name of it.

yep, highly idealized versions of anything stick in my craw. i think that's one problem with the 'star trek' universe, it's just too perfect, at least on the surface. same for any shire replicant, where what little strife is there always leads to comical conclusions.

i think, too, i'd like to see writers on the net get away from wizard wars. or wizards in general, i think. i mean, just for a minute b/c i otherwise love the idea. sometimes it's nice to have a little breathing room to make it interesting again, know what i mean? gimme a fantasy that *doesn't* involve a wizard, errant knight, king or princess, please. i'd be thrilled with that.

Vomaxx

04-08-2005, 03:00 AM

zizban

04-08-2005, 03:23 AM

There should be a law prohibiting prophecies in fantasy books for at least ten years. It is incredible how many writers include prophecies "that must be fulfilled".

----------
Is an "errant knight" the same as a "knight-errant"? (I don't think so.) :confused:

I agree. There were a few original takes on the idea: In The Belgariad by David Eddings, the prophecy actually had a voice and could talk. Robert Jordan's glory/doom prophecy was pretty good as well but mostly it is over used.

MadScientistMatt

04-08-2005, 03:39 AM

"gimme a fantasy that *doesn't* involve a wizard, errant knight, king or princess, please. i'd be thrilled with that."

Hmmm, now that sounds like an original idea. These seem to be the main heros of just about any fantasy novel. I just might have to try that one.

whitehound

04-08-2005, 04:48 AM

Well, Diana Wynne Jones' The Homeward Bounders (which, as previously discussed on another thread, can be taken as either fantasy or SF depending on whether you think the villains are demons or emergy-beings) doesn't involve any of those things.

Neither, so far as I recall, does Mary Gentle's Rats and Gargoyles. Or Tad Williams' The War of the Flowers. Or Warren Norwood's wonderfully weird Central American theological fantasy-thriller True Jaguar.

[I don't read much fantasy so that about exhausts my memory.]

zizban

04-08-2005, 05:04 AM

I always thought a comical novel telling the Arthur saga from Excalibur's point of view would be fun. "Oh great, stuck in stone again? Why am I the only sword 'stuck' with this fate?"

Humorous writing isn't my thing but someone wants to take the idea and run with it, feel free. Just credit me in the dedication.

spacejock2

04-08-2005, 10:38 AM

I write, but I'm also a slush reader for a print mag. (Incidentally, this is highly recommended - seeing the same mistakes over and over erases them from your own writing.)

Bear in mind I'm one of a number of slushers, and we do all try to be objective. But if any of the following zip across my desk they'd better be very well written...

My least favourite stories?

Those which contort themselves to spring a surprise ending on the reader - an ending which is neither original nor a particularly big surprise. (Fix: make the journey interesting and I'll care about the ending.)

Stories with enough background info to fill a novel. (Fix: turn it into a novel or cut details with no bearing on the story)

Stories with no likeable characters, and nobody I can identify with. Whether it's an argument, a fight, a ball game or a story, humans will pick one side and root for them against the other. Have you ever watched a game where you couldn't care less who won? Bingo. (Fix: Make me care who wins, good or bad. Give both sides damned good reasons for what they're doing, not just the 'hero'.)

Just my opinions, do with them what you will...

Cheers
Simon Haynes

SeanDSchaffer

04-08-2005, 11:35 AM

That's an easy one for me. I see it all the time on TV, just a different version every other day.

What story am I talking about?

It's the one where scientists find a way to make a normal animal about one-hundred times its size; it gets loose; runs amok; kills lots of innocent people; etc., etc., etc. :Smack: I think that premise is about as dead as a doornail right about now.

My personal favorite of them -- yes, I've actually watched a few -- was the one about a Komodo dragon (a monitor lizard that lives in Komodo Island, Indonesia) that somehow mutated from its normal size of about 12 feet long to an astonishing 100 feet or so, and two-stories tall at the shoulders. :Huh: It did the thing all 'mutant animals' do: it terrorized a group of people stranded on an island in a struggle to the death which eventually lead -- :Smack: -- to a sequel with a whole bunch of giant Komodo dragons terrorizing a group of people stranded on an island....:eek:

(Gritting my teeth together right about now!)

If any more of those come out, I think I could just about... well... I don't think I need to go into the gory details; I don't want to gross any of you -- or myself -- out. :faint:

Needless to say, I'm not fond of that particular premise, which has been running rampant on a particular SF cable channel for the last several years.

:ROFL:

preyer

04-08-2005, 01:33 PM

sean, you must have missed 'mansquito,' which was brilliant from start to finish. well, maybe 'brilliant' is a *wee* bit flattering. okay, ya got me... it sucked. but, saying it sucked in this case is like saying hitler was not a nice guy.

ziz, excalibur could throw a party and have plenty of magick swords over... if they could get out of various things themselves, lol.

right, knights-errant are do-gooders crossing the countryside searching for wrongs to right, damsels in distress, injusticed needing... justiced. sometimes accompanied with a quest. used to be all the rage. 700 years ago. errant knights, on the other hand, are rather fallen knights, knights without purpose (even evil knights know their purpose, eh?), or, in a sense, employed knights with great internal conflict. either way, really, they're both idealized versions of the real thing and, well, sort of stale.

a knight hell-bent on revenge would be sooo refreshing. 'the good, the bad, and the ugly,' set a thousand years ago -- oh, yeah, i'm feelin' that, baby.

Bamponang

04-08-2005, 01:56 PM

i don't mind unusual names. i *mind* unpronouncable names, though. a pet peeve of mine is learning a new dictionary of terms that are basically just rip-offs of what the word means in real-life. there's a point where my mind starts rejecting *fatashuyi* as a substitute for an apple when *every* common object has a new term to learn, know what i mean?

It could be worse. I once read a book where the aliens spoke my language. I'm sure the author gambled on very few people catching on. Afterall, how many English speaking readers can read Setswana? Ruined the fantasy for me!

Zane Curtis

04-08-2005, 04:14 PM

It could be worse. I once read a book where the aliens spoke my language. I'm sure the author gambled on very few people catching on. Afterall, how many English speaking readers can read Setswana? Ruined the fantasy for me!

It could be worse even than that. I wrote my first bunch of fantasy stories when I was seventeen (all rather dire). After a while, I thought to myself, "Hang on. If these stories are set on this exotic world, why do my characters ride plain old horses? And why would they call it a horse? In fact, why would they speak English at all? And why would they use a Roman alphabet when they've never even heard of Rome?"

So I started to write entire stories in the artificial language I'd invented for this world. All those pages of weird script look pretty good, but these days I don't have the least idea what they say. Finding out would involve digging up all my word lists and pronounciation guides, which is probably not worth the bother.

:faint:

DaveKuzminski

04-08-2005, 09:46 PM

One kind of story that needn't be written is the one in which a criminal goes to great lengths and expense to steal something for profit, especially when their efforts look like they cost as much or even more than what they're stealing is worth. I can understand a few rare instances where it was a collector willing to spend whatever it cost in order to complete his art collection because the owner was unwilling to sell. I can also understand a few instances where the theft is done for the thrill. However, most thefts are for profit and any plan that requires an investment nearly equal to the haul is just plain stupid.

triceretops

04-08-2005, 11:08 PM

Magic stones, runes, rings, swords, necklasses, helmets, cloaks, oh, plaaaleeze!

No more prince and princess. How about a couple of homeless crackers who win the lottery and start a corporate empire...anything but the prince meets the princess, who never told him she was a princess because she wanted to test him, and he keeps his princliness a secret because he thinks he might be too good for the princess who's trying to convince him that she is no good, or just normal.

tri

Zane Curtis

04-09-2005, 03:49 AM

However, most thefts are for profit and any plan that requires an investment nearly equal to the haul is just plain stupid.

You know, I'm reading through this thread and getting story ideas from it. Is there any hope for me?

I'm seeing this sort of like an O. Henry story, about a guy who's smoked one too many reefers. Flying in the face of the evidence, he fancies himself as a criminal mastermind, and makes all these grandiose plans about how he's going to steal The Scream by Edvard Munch, and even more grandiose plans about how he's going to spend his ill gotten gains.

Against all the odds, his scheme actually works. He's figured out how to successfully steal one of the most frequently stolen paintings in the history of art. He's figured out how to evade arrest. He's even figured out a clever way to offload an instantly recognisable painting. But he's none too clever at the book keeping. He has spent more than he's made, and he still owes $20 thousand to his financial backers: two guys in suits and dark glasses called Tony and Luigi.

In the end, the police get their tip off and arrest him when he tries to sell a manuscript to Harper Collins for $20 thousand. It was called: "How I stole The Scream and got away with it."

Zane Curtis

04-09-2005, 04:48 AM

No more prince and princess... anything but the prince meets the princess, who never told him she was a princess because she wanted to test him, and he keeps his princliness a secret because he thinks he might be too good for the princess who's trying to convince him that she is no good, or just normal.

Oh dear, I'm afraid I'm using this one as well, in my WIP. Well, kind of. They're not exactly a prince and princess, but they are in an equivalent social position, in what passes for my world's aristocracy. And it's true that, right up until the start of this story, my POV character never knew that he was a "prince", and an heir to a considerable estate.

My problem is that my two main characters really have to be at the top of the social heap. Otherwise, it's just not plausible that they will have the sort of social influence they will wield in my story. But I hope that, at least, I can depart from the standard cliche, and take the premise in a direction you might not expect. My protagonist doesn't actually want to be a prince, he wants to be an engineer, and his new found fame isn't going to bring him anything but trouble.

whitehound

04-09-2005, 05:43 AM

I've got a sort of a prince in mine - who is bouyantly open and uncomplicated and vain of his own beauty, and has four legs and fur and fangs. And an ex slave who unexpectedly turns out to be a minor aristocrat, and the heir to a small village and some nice orchards.

SeanDSchaffer

04-09-2005, 11:49 AM

sean, you must have missed 'mansquito,' which was brilliant from start to finish. well, maybe 'brilliant' is a *wee* bit flattering. okay, ya got me... it sucked. but, saying it sucked in this case is like saying hitler was not a nice guy.

'Mansquito'? I've heard of it, but I never actually watched it. Just the name made me think of a cheap imitation of the old movie 'The Fly,' which I enjoyed very much. I didn't want to think anybody would stoop so low as to imitate such a classic (Just FYI, I'm talking about the remake made in the late '80's, not the 1950's original) story.

Part of the reason I liked 'The Fly' was that the main character, in his changing from man to fly form, tried to maintain his Humanity and took notes of his horrifying experience before the power he possessed as the fly finally overtook and destroyed him. That depth is something I see lacking in so many 'mutant animal' stories these days. And that is the main reason I think the premise is pretty much dead.

:Shrug:

preyer

04-10-2005, 12:18 PM

the guy transformed into a giant man-mosquito in all of five minutes. it took him awhile to develop wings, for some reason, which was utterly comical to think these relatively small wings would in any conceivable way support the hundreds of pounds the mansquito weighed. 'but, preyer, birds fly.' yes, they do. any they also have hollow bones. and don't weigh 210 pounds. and have a wingspan proportionately appropriate to their mass. and aren't made out of seran wrap.

'the fly' was a great movie (never caught the original, though). the cool thing about SF is it's always mirrored the socio-economics (sorry for having to use that term, i hate it about as much as i do 'christian/judeo') culture of the time. like 'godzilla' has a social commentary reflecting people's fear of the nuclear age, etc..

anyone ever listen to the original orson welles radio version of 'war of the worlds'? here you had the announcer say before the play started back up *after* the commercials (the fact there were commercials should have been peoples' first clue, don'tcha think? lol) that it's just a play, and people *still* freaked. people musta thought ming the merciless was coming at 'em.

i wouldn't worry about my story getting hacked up. i reckon there's as much chance they ruin it as there is they make it better. i'd imagine the hard part is actually sharing your vision with someone else when you want to say, 'no, that's not the way i want it to be!' watching 'project greenlight' has the writers on call and they're highly pissed that their story has been very altered.

then again, i heard michael crichton's 'timeline' was a good book, but it had to be one of the worst movies i've ever seen, stupid, boring and illogical from start to finish, but, apparently, *very* different from the book. whatever you think of crichton, there's no denying he's a heavy-weight, so even these guys get jerked around every now and then. (i always thought crichton was a competent director, too, which makes it a bit strange to think how he could allow his book to be so horribly portrayed unless he was completely out of the loop.)

stories where you go back in time but aren't allowed to alter anything for fear of changing the future. though i know there are time-cop stories who protect time or whatever, just the whole concept of going back in time and not doing anything is just a boring idea, not to mention the obviousness of, 'gee, i wonder if something's going to go awry? what, oh, what could it be?'

anything where the hero has a special ability granted by hell that they use for good. good concept, too over-done. i'd like for that one to die down and by the time it cycles through again i'll have some good stuff for it. :) (okay, i admit i'd like to see the videogames 'nocturn' and 'bloodrayne' made into cheesy movies.)

the problem i have with princesses is they're all sickeningly spunky. precociousness makes me gag. they're so one-dimensional. and invariably their one apparently character flaw which the hack makes sure we know from the third paragraph onwards is her free spirit/quickness to get riled up. basically, her immaturity is the sole thing to for the character to quash, yet at the same time doesn't utterly destroy her the moment she's cast into the real world via a coup. it's as if the only place most writers take this character by the end is a place where she realizes what a brat she's been which enables her to fall in love right before dismissing the usurper. (gotta point out 'gone with the wind,' here. in the end, scarlett is still nothing more than a spoiled brat. arguably considered the best movie ever made.)

oh, and i'm officially against any story, comic, or movie where someone takes fifteen minutes to die so they can impart a clue to the hero. *person dying in hero's arms*: 'beware... of... dave ch... ch...ch... ugh....' then there being five characters named dave ch-something.

SeanDSchaffer

04-10-2005, 02:18 PM

stories where you go back in time but aren't allowed to alter anything for fear of changing the future. though i know there are time-cop stories who protect time or whatever, just the whole concept of going back in time and not doing anything is just a boring idea, not to mention the obviousness of, 'gee, i wonder if something's going to go awry? what, oh, what could it be?'

Preyer, do you remember a short story (I honestly don't remember who wrote it -- I think it might have been Heinlein -- but I thought it was brilliantly done) called 'A Sound of Thunder'? Basically the premise was that a man would go back in time to the age of the Dinosaurs on a safari, but would be forced to stay on a floating pathway above the actual ground so as not to possibly change time.

The story goes that the man became so excited about his kill (An already-dying dinosaur) that he stepped off the platform and ran up to touch the dead animal.

When the man returned to his time, everything had changed horrendously because of his actions. He had stepped on and squashed a butterfly as he left the floating platform. As the man tried to get out of a terrible, terrible situation, another man lifted up a gun and the last line goes accordingly, 'There was a sound of thunder.' I loved that short story, because it took a worn-out premise and shone a new light upon it. I wish more writers would be willing to take the old, worn-out ideas, and give them new life in such a way as was done in this particular story.

triceretops

04-10-2005, 05:35 PM

SeanDSchaffer

04-10-2005, 07:11 PM

Sean, the exact, EXACT, same premise and plot was used in a very good book called, Death Beast--the dino safari--the platform--all of it. I'll have to google the name of the auhor.

Preyer--you are just one facinating dude! Your concepts and visualizations are exstraordinary. I got lost in thought just reading your posts. What an idea machine, you are! Please, get a book published soon.

Tri

You know Tri, I've seen examples before of writers who will have a short published and then later on will write a novel based on that short. I remember one of my favorite examples is an old Gordon R. Dickson piece entitled 'Saint Dragon and the George,' which was later turned into a novel entitled The Dragon and the George. All the characters were the same; the basic plot was the same; but it was just turned into a rather large novel.

The reason I bring this up is that, maybe the author of 'A Sound of Thunder' could have also written Death Beast. I don't know this for certain, but I think it's a real possibility.

And Preyer, I agree one hundred per cent with Tri about you. You are definitely a fascinating individual. I love reading your posts; they're so full of good stuff and great insights. Please, keep it up.:Thumbs:

DaveKuzminski

04-10-2005, 07:16 PM

If you like time travel stories, you might want to read the time travel thread. I posted a very short time travel story there that was my first published fiction. It appeared in Keen Science Fiction which at the time was considered a semi-pro venue that paid nicely. Of course, I think it was unique in its own way especially since it was a time travel story in which none of the characters went anywhere in time.

preyer

04-10-2005, 11:45 PM

well, thank ya, guys. nice to be appreciated. i've found that i've often got a polarizing effect on message boards.

anyone ever watch 'the simpsons'? that's about the only reason i own a t.v.. anyway, it was a 'treehouse of horrors' episode where homer goes back in time, stomps on a bug and changes everything. it was... ridiculously sublime.

one short i did about eight years ago involved a drug addict who got it in his mind while high he had been given divine instructions on how to build a time machine. so he did. of course, it was just junk. after it had been built, still filled with 'divine inspiration,' he had a friend chain him to his bed so beat his addiction, and once done with that, got in his time machine. it's unclear whether the force of his will allowed him to travel back in time or he was hallucinating, but back he went to the beginning. that he conversed with God indicates he was unsane at the time as he'd otherwise be burnt to cinder, but he became the first angel, which is another biblical anomoly of my story. that probably didn't need to be written, either, lol.

preyer

04-14-2005, 01:39 AM

i've written 'em, you've probably written 'em: the last magickal wizard, unicorn, dragon (the one i did :)) before the science age kicks in. this is one of those things i think most writers need to get out of their system, and i imagine one of those stories that's done fairly early on.

whitehound

04-16-2005, 06:14 AM

You know Tri, I've seen examples before of writers who will have a short published and then later on will write a novel based on that short.
Often leading to another category of story which shouldn't be written. Vonda McIntyre wrote a wonderfully sad, creepy, impressive novella called Aztecs, which ended with the heroine stepping apart from her former friends in the crew lounge and going to sit with the hyperspace pilots "to live alone with them, and never tell their secrets." It was a perfect, haunting, downbeat ending - but then she expanded it into a full-length novel, and then a sequel, and told the secrets, and resolved the romantic conflict, and totally ruined the original story.

Gregory Benford wrote another strange, sad, creepy novella called If the Stars Are Gods - probably the best thing he ever wrote by a wide margin - and again he ruined it IMO by expanding it into a novel.

preyer

04-16-2005, 09:25 PM

i read vonda's 'the crystal star,' i believe it was called, a star wars novel. it was, without a doubt, one of the worst books i have ever had the misfortune of reading in my life, bought at a garage sale for fifty cents, which was forty-nine cents overpriced. awful, terrible, horrendous, stinky, crappy, stupid, boring, and just all-around sucky.

fallenangelwriter

04-16-2005, 11:29 PM

I've employed prophecies repeatedly, but only to make fun of or shed light on the fantasy staple.

my current WIP is about a prophecy that is actually completely false.

triceretops

04-17-2005, 02:17 AM

If I'm not mistaken, the movie A.I. came from a short story called "Super Toys Last All Summer Long." I forget the sci-fi author's name for the original. But did someone ever script an "A.I" novel? I did happen to like the movie quite a bit, when most of my friends really poo-pooed it for lack of a good/positive payoff.

Tri

whitehound

04-17-2005, 07:41 AM

Vonda McIntyre used to be a very good author but I think she went off the boil a bit and became formulaic - about the time she decided to rewrite Aztecs. A great pity.

Tad Williams' Memory, Sorrow and Thorn sequence centres around a prophecy which is not so much wrong as misinterpreted. It says that gathering together the three eponymous swords will bring power and salvation etc. and the cast spend most of the books trying to collect them only to find out that they bring power to their enemy.

Unfortunately I suspected this twist from near the beginning, when they read out the prophecy which ended "Then the prisoned shall once more go free" and I immediately thought "Why is nobody asking just what is imprisoned, and whether freeing it is a good idea?"

preyer

04-18-2005, 11:12 AM

vonda had won a hugo award, i believe, which amazed me considering how truly bad her one book of her's i read was. if she won the pulitzer i'd not read another one of her books. i guess we all write stories better off in a watery, downwards circular motion, but i just remember hating every single aspect of it. that one book has biased me towards all her others.

yep, that twist seems like a glaring beacon shouting, 'if you're surprized by the ending, you weren't paying attention!' i don't know about anyone else, but my novels are my babies and even if someone paid me a commission to do one, i'd do it like it was my own. that last line could have been gotten around in so many different ways. as it is, it's just blatant and illogical. were everything else in the book running okay, i'd finish it, but stuff like that sticks in my mind for the rest of the book. i mean, that's not even foreshadowing, it's a flat-out statement by the author that what's going to happen won't be what's expected by the characters, yet the cast conveniently ignores that bit of doomsday. i mean, are they stupid or something? lol. clearly the author figured the reader would take 'imprisoned' to mean the average joe oppressed by his society, but i'm more literal than that and take 'imprisoned' to mean 'those in prison' at first glance. it was probably very evident by the middle of the book that what you thought was a red flag indeed was being borne out to be exactly that, no?

okay, granted, most sci-fi readers aren't writers, too (...or are they...?), but, come on, people are more savvy than editors and sometimes writers give us credit for (writers being folk who usually come up with plots and ostensibly know the techniques are able to 'see it coming' a lot, if not most, of the time). i've said it before: don't treat me like a kid who had to take the special bus to school or a mensa member and we'll get along just fine. :)

Anaparenna

04-18-2005, 03:45 PM

Preyer, do you remember a short story (I honestly don't remember who wrote it -- I think it might have been Heinlein -- but I thought it was brilliantly done) called 'A Sound of Thunder'? Basically the premise was that a man would go back in time to the age of the Dinosaurs on a safari, but would be forced to stay on a floating pathway above the actual ground so as not to possibly change time.

The story goes that the man became so excited about his kill (An already-dying dinosaur) that he stepped off the platform and ran up to touch the dead animal.
It was Bradbury, and actually, the guy chickened out at the sight of the dinosaur. :) Found it here: http://www.sba.muohio.edu/snavely/415/thunder.htm

It's still one of my favorites.

whitehound

04-21-2005, 02:28 AM

vonda had won a hugo award, i believe, which amazed me considering how truly bad her one book of her's i read was. if she won the pulitzer i'd not read another one of her books. i guess we all write stories better off in a watery, downwards circular motion, but i just remember hating every single aspect of it. that one book has biased me towards all her others.
A pity because she really is very good, usually.

i mean, that's not even foreshadowing, it's a flat-out statement by the author that what's going to happen won't be what's expected by the characters, yet the cast conveniently ignores that bit of doomsday. i mean, are they stupid or something? lol. clearly the author figured the reader would take 'imprisoned' to mean the average joe oppressed by his society, but i'm more literal than that and take 'imprisoned' to mean 'those in prison' at first glance. it was probably very evident by the middle of the book that what you thought was a red flag indeed was being borne out to be exactly that, no?
Oh no - it wasn't until the penultimate chapter and terrifying climax of four very long books that it became apparent just who the "prisoned" person was whom the swords would free. You see a lot of people on "our" side, including both the hero and the political leader, were also imprisoned at various points and the way it was set up it was entirely reasonable for the heroes, and most readers, to think the prophecy referred to them.

It was clear that the prophecy meant that the swords would serve the good guys and free the opressed - and it was only very gradually that it became apparent that there was a case to be made for the enemy being the good guy. He was a terrible and murderous oppressor, but one who had himself been terribly oppressed and had been driven mad by the destruction of his people.

It was only because I'm really paranoid that I spotted that little clue at the outset - and because I do psychic readings, because one of the things you have to be terribly careful with with e.g. dowsing is to remember *exactly* how you worded the question, because for some reason you always get an answer to what you said, not what you meant to say. So I automatically thought "Don't just ask 'Will the prisoner be freed?' - you have to specify *which* prisoner." But I'm sure most people wouldn't spot that, because it was very subtly done - like a clue in a good detective novel. They really are exceedingly good books.

whitehound

07-17-2005, 08:36 AM

bump

triceretops

07-17-2005, 01:07 PM

Preyer, do you remember a short story (I honestly don't remember who wrote it -- I think it might have been Heinlein -- but I thought it was brilliantly done) called 'A Sound of Thunder'? Basically the premise was that a man would go back in time to the age of the Dinosaurs on a safari, but would be forced to stay on a floating pathway above the actual ground so as not to possibly change time.

The story goes that the man became so excited about his kill (An already-dying dinosaur) that he stepped off the platform and ran up to touch the dead animal.

Man, does that ever sound like a novel called Deathbeast, and it was very well done.

Tri

Axler

07-19-2005, 02:43 AM

Preyer, do you remember a short story (I honestly don't remember who wrote it -- I think it might have been Heinlein -- but I thought it was brilliantly done) called 'A Sound of Thunder'?

Ray Bradbury wrote "A Sound of Thunder." Filming of a movie version was completed over a year ago...don't know why it was never released.

Man, does that ever sound like a novel called Deathbeast, and it was very well done.

Tri

Deathbeast was written by David Gerrold, which was of course a much later work. If any influences were involved, I'm sure Mr. Gerrold was on the receiving end from Mr. Bradbury's short story.

Lyra Jean

07-19-2005, 10:46 PM

There should be a law prohibiting prophecies in fantasy books for at least ten years. It is incredible how many writers include prophecies "that must be fulfilled".

What if it was a prophecy "that must be fulfilled" and the hero decided to not fulfill it. So it wasn't fulfilled. That would be a twist I think.

dblteam

07-20-2005, 01:44 AM

One idea I really like is having the magical key to the prophecy that would save the world being a person or intelligent artifact, but a rather nasty and evil one who has absolutely no interest in helping the good guys. Sort of like a plot coupon run amok.

I still haven't found the right story for this one, but it keeps lurking in the back of my brain.

Valerie

triceretops

07-20-2005, 12:55 PM

"What if it was a prophecy "that must be fulfilled" and the hero decided to not fulfill it. So it wasn't fulfilled. That would be a twist I think."

I like to call this reverse plotting. Farenheit 451 is a great example of it. Where firemen are to protect and serve, they burn, destroy and procecute. I used a totally benign agency, the FCC, to run around and filch the written word from people. In Death Race 2000 drivers are awarded points for running down people instead of avoiding them

Rich people live in jail complexes for fear of being robbed by the poor.
Doctors put people to death
Serials killers are let loose in a competition for the most kills.

These aren't real great examples. I just think we have to come up with unique ideas, or even styles, for that matter, something outside the box.
I can't count how many times agents and editors have told me to "make it different", "don't be afraid to draw outside the lines."

Tri

whitehound

07-20-2005, 01:22 PM

Not quite reverse plotting, but certainly deliberately subverting expectations - one of the back-themes in my WIP concerns low-tech. tribes exploring the ruins of an ancient and more technologically-advanced civilization.

I deliberately set it up so that readers would expect it to be one of those by now rather clichéd "mysterious high-tech. artefacts" stories, with ruined spaceships and burned-out energy weapons etc. - I'm sure any SF reader knows the sort of thing. Except that in this case the corrided high-tech. artefact they find and puzzle over is a steam-driven winch for raising timber, and the mysterious, unintelligible transport system, so much faster than anything they have now, able to raise loads against gravity etc., is a canal-system, with locks.

triceretops

07-20-2005, 01:44 PM

I like the idea, Whitehound. Yes, not quite a reverse--a "suprise" instead.

I'm going to try a galactic janitor, who's a bit of a rogue, running around scooping up space trash, and neutralizing toxic spills on planets. Only he and his crew generally use high explosives to blow everything up to solve problems, until he's hired to check out a planet full of bones. He then has to take his vocation seriously (for once in his life) and investigate a REAL planetary catastrophy and find out why an entire civilization has been wiped out.

Tri

whitehound

07-22-2005, 03:38 AM

That sounds very interesting and original - I hope it gets published.

In the WIP I also have one of the characters commenting early on that her people have legends that they came to this windswept world in great far-travelling ships thousands of years beforehand - and I'm going to let the readers spend almost the whole book thinking "Aha - the remnant of a space-faring civilization!" before they find out that the people came there from another continent, in clinker-built sailing-ships.

DaveKuzminski

07-22-2005, 04:03 AM

There is a school of thought, I believe, that holds the idea that once a civilization reaches a certain point, technological advances begin to occur with increasing frequency. You might not have that many thousands of years to let your people forget their roots.

whitehound

07-22-2005, 04:19 AM

It's probably true that once you reach a certain point, invention begets invention - but these aren't humans, they're vaguely humanoid aliens with a much lower birth-rate than humans. The mysterious ancients, who'd got up to about the cusp of an Industrial Revolution, were wiped out by a devastating plague which killed 70% of the population. Two or three thousand years later their descendants have still not quite made up the population-loss and they live in small towns scattered widely across vaste almost empty plains, without much opportunity for sharing ideas which, in many cases, would be restricted as being guild secrets.

In any case many human societies have trundled on for thousands of years without very much technological advance - the native Americans living north of California, for example, made huge advances in botany but very little in other forms of technology, since they too lived scattered across trackless plains.

And even with our rapid breeding-rate and our access to iron (which neither the native Americans nor the people I'm writing about had much of), and a large population living cheek by jowl and sharuing ideas freely, it took about 1,300 years for technology to climb back up to anything like what it had been before the fall of Rome.

Mac H.

07-22-2005, 04:37 AM

There is a school of thought, I believe, that holds the idea that once a civilization reaches a certain point, technological advances begin to occur with increasing frequency.

It's a nice school of thought . The problem is that (in our culture at least) the rate of technological advances (per capita) seems to be falling.

We are still advancing, but not as fast.

This measurement is based on the number of patents issued per capita.
If our population starts to drop, we can expect the our overall rate of technological advances to fall as well.

Mac

preyer

07-23-2005, 03:46 AM

i'm not i'm too hep on that, MH. i've plenty of patentable ideas i never got around to, just thought of doing, but just wasn't fast enough. i'm sure everyone's got a patentable idea, just not enough motivation or money to make it happen. i think we also need to consider the per capita thing based on an industrialized nation, not the population of the entire world.

i guess 'advancement' here is a slippery word: we've certainly advanced more in the last fifty years than at any point in civilization. i think you need to include artistic endeavors, too, along with this kind of 'advancement,' eh? let's add trademarks and copyrights in there, too, for a more accurate number. unless, of course, 'advancement' leaves out literature and the other arts.

i'd hate to make the correlation that the more educated our society becomes, the less inspired it becomes, too, because i know there are a lot of folk here have pursued college degrees. :)

preyer

07-23-2005, 04:03 AM

oh, and i'd venture to say our society has reached a lot of technological advances in mechanics to the point that now since we've got computers, a profound shift in 'invention' occurs, making new mechanical devices roundly obsolute agasint those with the wherewithal to make a significant change. in other words, perhaps there *is* a drop in the basement mechanic trying to figure out a new way to iron a shirt or beat an egg, but only because we've reached a pinnacle of how many different ways it can be improved upon. those who *can* improve on it are working in some R&D department for pampered chef, lol.

too, since our society is turning more towards the service industry, there's little point to improving a lot of technology that simply will have no impact our our lives. there are so many advanced technological things we take for granted, is it any wonder the average person has difficulty actually building a working model of a computerized egg beater that runs on solar power with a built-in radio? how many people are able to write their own computer code?

i myself have approached a couple of giant icon businesses with an idea and they told me to get bent, 'we don't accept outside solicitors.' okay, fine, be that way, jerkasses, figure it out yourself then as your stock continues to slide and your inbred ideas get continually worse.

i agree, on a per capita basis there may be fewer patents, but i wouldn't go as far as saying that the numbers tell the tale when there are a lot of other factors to consider like there never has been before, from corporate policy to the computer to a fundamental shift in how people earn their money to the restrictive cost of basic design to creation (i think the average cost runs around thirty thousand dollars to make your suntan lotion applicator to your back a prototype reality), application fees and patent lawyer. no wonder i've never patented anything-- it costs too much money! lol.

azbikergirl

07-27-2005, 06:15 AM

In a book I have, Writing Science Fiction and Fantasy, there's a chapter titled Ideas that Wouldn't Die. It lists some of the done-to-death plots:

humans falling in love with androids
post-holocaust (usually nuclear) where everyone moans about how terrible things are
totalitarian societies that look just like hundreds of other fictitious totalitarian societies
couples applying for state permission to have a baby
individuals applying for state permission to live another year
time travel stories that add nothing new to the old re-hashed stories (such as killing one's own grandfather)
psi stories that add nothing new (telepathy, telekinesis, clairvoyance, etc.)
UFOs, the Bermuda Triangle, vampires, astral projection
cryogenically preserved patients awakening in a Strange New Future
aliens evaluating homo sapiens and/or earth as a candidate for extermination, admission to a galactic federation, settlement, etc.
deals with the devil
frustrated SF writer using a time machine to find a more congenial market for his work
obvious take-offs on current events, such as alients finding Pioneer 10

DaveKuzminski

07-27-2005, 07:22 AM

In a book I have, Writing Science Fiction and Fantasy, there's a chapter titled Ideas that Wouldn't Die.

Okay, okay, I'll give you the secret to writing new stories that aren't cliched to death. Ready?

Whispering, "Combine two or more cliche elements into the same story."

Then you can end up with a story about a human who falls in love with a psi-android who was sent to Earth to harvest parts for alien invaders who have to apply for state permission to live another year.

Pthom

07-27-2005, 10:48 AM

Dave, I'll let you re-explain "plot coupons" now . . .
;)

preyer

07-27-2005, 11:30 AM

damn good examples. damn good. :)

DaveKuzminski

07-27-2005, 04:37 PM

Dave, I'll let you re-explain "plot coupons" now . . .
;)

Those are in the backs of all books that publishers know are old and stale. You use those to get a discount on the plot at the local cemetary to use for burying that book before it gets to really stinkin'!

scfirenice

07-27-2005, 09:22 PM

The problem is, everything has been done to death. Even so called new themes are twists on old ones if you go back far enough. When you boil down the plot, it's going to be the same. Could someone write a great twist on vampires or weres that sells tons? yeah. How many bodice ripers are being sold every day...same story, different highlander. You have to find a way to stand out and be inventive and you can sell even the oldest of old themes.

preyer

07-27-2005, 10:44 PM

could someone still write a vamp or werewolf story and sell tons? sure. and that would be probably literally one out of every ten million vampire stories. vamp stories in particular could stand a rest, it being probably most writer's first few stories. and it shows more often than not. here's the best line you will ever see concerning words you read on the internut and vampires, as said by count bludula himself, 'i need another vampire story like i need another hole in my neck.'

at one point, people got cute and/or wise and tried to play out a bunch of what-if scenarios (what if a vampire suffered acid reflux? what if a vampire got in an accident and lost his teeth? what if a vampire sucked the blood of a werewolf? what if a vampire sucks blood of someone suffering AIDS?). even now those are done to death.

here's the thing, it's not about theme or plot, per se, it's how it's expressed. ...another take on vampire history and culture... another vampire with endless wealth... another vampire with conflicting emotions, afraid to be a predator... the bad-arse vampire hunter.... it's just the same stuff over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over nad voer dan evor ndaveor anodenrevnan again. movies are okay, i'm done with those in a couple of hours, but books are something else. the point is it's seemingly impossible with some of these stories to be inventive anymore. i dare say a lot of professional writers abandon these stories, knowing how overdone they are (except for screenwriters, who, i'm sure, think they've got a 'good' vampire script in them) and don't see the use in spending them time with them unless they've got something really good (or are otherwise complete berift of ideas, lol). sorry, i don't think it's fair to compare an entire genre such as bodice-rippers/romance to a niche market. i'm sure there are plenty of romance stories that don't need to be written either, but would you say one over-done plot is comparable to the entire horror genre? (whereas i wouldn't be the least bit surprised to find plenty of anne rice on the shelves of the average avid romance reader, i think we're talking about the exception here, not the rule.)

what is the theme of vampires, anyway? or of any of those old saws listed most recently? if you break down those themes into their most generic form, sure, there's no problem. it's the details, though, that are so incomprehensibly over-used that warrants the title of this thread, eh?

are the themes in a vampire story 'better' than the themes used in a witch story? no, not really. so what are vampire stories so vastly more popular? i think because it's something we've grown up on and feel comfortable in 'knowing.' wtiches, time travel, psychic powers, et al, have a complexity to them that telling a vampire story completely doesn't need on the surface, that is, vampires feel more intrinsic than the others *because* we've been so over-inundated with them from birth that there's no escaping what they are, how they came to be, their nature, etc.. we don't have to research vampires, we already know everything there is to know about them, eh? covens, on the other hand, involve a group dynamic that can be a lot harder to write, or time travel can be hard to research when there are so many detailed theories about it, even psychic powers are something that needs to be researched (unless you take the wussy way out and simply chalk it up to using the frontal lobe or something and offer no explanation beyond that). then again, if you don't agree and want to debate that vampirical themes somehow strikes more at the core of the human psyche, i think that explains why romance stories are so popular, no? what hits home more than love?

vampires require practically zero ambition, really. write a good frankenstein story. i think a lot of writers would be afraid to do that because it takes more of an understanding than vampires. or be different and write about a mad scientist who hunts down vampires to take bits and pieces of them to make a super-vampire. okay, that's a stupid idea (no, really, it is, don't anyone get inspired over that crap, else you might as well throw in time-travel and an undersea lab on a repopulated mars while you're at it).

vampire stories... heh/bah! only i, preyer, have a new twist on the tired tale, and i alone. everyone else's stories are just regurgitations of puke that's already been vomited out by worse hacks than me with nothing better to write. i say there's no nutritional value in re-hashed puke, and no matter how you season it it still tastes like what it is. except for MY story, naturally, because, you know, only *I* can offer something fresh and exciting because, well, that's me all over. :)

basically these stories don't need to be written at least for another five years because they've already been written literally a million times over.

loquax

07-27-2005, 11:21 PM

The best vampire film I've seen is "From Dusk till Dawn". Now that's a good twist on an old concept.

scfirenice

07-28-2005, 01:08 AM

I was using vampires as an example. Vamp stories are overdone but I've read a few good ones by newer authors who managed to put a twist on it and make it interesting. My point is, most everything is overdone now especially in regards to supernatural humanoids:Witches, weres, telepaths, faeries, etc... the key is to find a way to make it exciting. I think Charlaine Harris would be offended by the comment that vampires don't require ambition. I would argue that they require MORE ambition since the market is so saturated with them and getting them in print now would require something special.
S

preyer

07-28-2005, 09:45 PM

right, i was using vampires as an example, too. about the one thing left for vampire authors to incorporate into the story is a return to themes, which, it seems, these stories have gotten away from as a result from newby writers concentrating on the coolness of the character than anything else. sure, there may be a few twists left to these ideas, and maybe even a new idea or two that happens almost by default as a result from writing a novel, but these aren't the norm, not from what i see. i encourage these stories be written-- and kept in the writer's computer because 1) people think because they've written something it's worthy of being read and 2) i wholeheartedly believe you have to write a lot of tripe to ever write something good (unless you get lucky or are just a natural born writer), so go ahead and get these things out of your system and be done with it.

wanna know why i think these things keep getting published? this is actually a pretty valid reason despite the fact it's pointless from a literature standpoint, but it's the same reason that the same kind of stupid movies are constantly redone and that's to introduce a new audience to the same story just in an updated version. honestly, are there a lot of experienced readers still out for a vampire story? obviously a few, but i mean on average? by that i mean 'new' vampire product isn't being written and published for me, necessarily, rather than for another generation of reader who's newer to reading and want ten vampire novels on the shelf like i wanted ten vampire novels on the shelf... twenty years ago, lol.

does it require ambition? imo, not much. in fact, i think an experienced writer doing the same-old-same-old is either being lazy or is just out of marketable ideas. merely to illustrate a twist? okay, here's one i'm not familiar with: a vampire coven trapped inside their lair in a kind of alamo situation. lame? sure is. different? maybe a bit. enough to get someone to read it? done right, more than likely. do i have fifteen novels to write before i get to it? you betcha. then again, i've got plenty of ideas to get down before i feel reduced to something like that. here's another idea: vampires actually succeed in becoming a large segment of society. it could be done either as a dark-ish comedy where nike starts making vampire-specific clothing or a bit more serious (coca cola making soft drinks with carbonated hemoglobin, cars with sun-blocking tinted windows, coppertone with the same stuff, a vampire cable show with vampire news, etc.) with social overtones where humans as a food source are becoming scarse, yet the balance the vampires admit they need to maintain completely isn't being maintained. it would play well in the midwest where we're suddenly being inundated with a latino influence, and instead of dumbass teenage girls in the suburbs having trophy black guys for boyfriends they have trophy vampire boyfriends and a corporate undercurrent where no icon company wants to be the one to rein in their outsourcing and downsizing at the cost of making profit. or how about a vampire mafia because vampire cops were interesting for about a minute? better yet, instead of vampires in those 'ideas', use werewolves. i could take any of these piss-poor ideas and at least make a script out of it if not base an entire career on some of 'em, but if i ever decided there was any merit to any of them, i'm not likely to impose the quick 'n easy vampire thing over it which, i feel, would only degrade the idea for lack of my own imagination. even shooting fish in a barrel is harder than running a stake through a vampire's heart as he sleeps in his coffin, eh? lol.

Selene LuPaine

08-04-2005, 06:16 AM

Ouch, there goes love for my novel-in-the-making. I am working on a vampire lycan novel, but it is also more than that. It has an entire world I created myself, and doesn't follow the over-used vampire against lycan battles and plots.

In fact the whole idea started from an rp, right where i created my charri(character). If its safe I'd like to provide a link to that rp. This is no ametuer rp. This is an rp that by the first well written descripted post, done by my good friend known as Dead Hero, ruled out all the newbies who write only a sentence.

Edit: I even spent four hours from 5am to 9am to draw up the map for my story with great details. I find that it's the key to finding ideas for any fiction story. Meh...I couldn't sleep so I decided to work!

Euan H.

08-11-2005, 12:28 PM

here's another idea: vampires actually succeed in becoming a large segment of society.

Kim Newman has done this:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/038072345X/

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0380727145/

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0380732297/ (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0380732297/qid=1123746968/sr=8-7/ref=pd_bbs_7/002-0795330-1691269?v=glance&s=books&n=507846)

dhenderson002

09-12-2005, 08:19 PM

NO MORE BODY SWITCH STORIES!! Not unless there is something new that can be done that I have over looked.

preyer

09-12-2005, 08:42 PM

whether or not your lycanthrope/vampire story *needs* to be written, bear in mind people will still buy it. do we *need* another bodice-ripper? no. but, it's the fact that some things are well-trod territory that we feel safe and can relax and get into the story perhaps a lot easier than in a world where everything is unfamiliar.

EH, see, it's practically all been done, lol. vampire's in space? been there. maybe robot vampires in space is relatively unheard of, i'm not sure. as long as the vampire protag isn't one of these guys who hates to drink blood... man, i'm so tired of that.

DaveKuzminski

09-13-2005, 03:23 AM

Don't recall if I posted this before, but it goes to show that there are ways to put new twists into old ideas:

Fly By Night

by Dave Kuzminski

The sun had just set and the coffin opened. A figure stepped from the coffin and said to his waiting servant, "Renfield, I have reached an unhappy conclusion and am serving you with notice of your discharge."

Renfield shook his head. "Master, I don't understand. I've served you loyally all these years. It just doesn't make any sense for you to fire me now."

The Count replied, "Renfield, I must. I'm sorry. You'll have to leave the castle and find other work. Should you need a letter of recommendation, I'll gladly provide you with one. Surely, there must be another vampire in need of someone loyal like yourself . . ."

Renfield spotted an insect on the wall, smacked it dead while catching it before it could fall to the floor, and then popped it in his mouth. Seeing that, the Count flinched.

"You were saying, Master?"

"Uh, yes, I was saying that surely there must be another vampire in need of someone loyal like yourself to tend to the castle during the day. It's not easy, I know, finding someone to keep the cobwebs neatly arranged, insure that the dust is undisturbed, and . . ."

At that point, Renfield spotted a fly and smacked it before gobbling it as well.

"Renfield, what you're doing disturbs me. Must you eat right now?"

"But Master, you never mentioned that my eating disturbed you before."

"True, Renfield, I haven't. However, that was before I dined at the house of a British explorer just back from Africa."

Renfield asked, "Has that something to do with my discharge from your services?"

"Unfortunately, it does, Renfield. I was unaware that Sir Mallory had been stricken with Tse-tse fever before I dined."

"But Master, I still don't understand."

"It's quite simple, Renfield. We're simply no longer compatible. Since that particular dinner, I've discovered that I'm a fly by night."

}|{ the end }|{

Axler

09-13-2005, 03:41 AM

"It's quite simple, Renfield. We're simply no longer compatible. Since that particular dinner, I've discovered that I'm a fly by night."

}|{ the end }|{

Wasn't that story a finalist in the Forry J. Ackerman Most Extreme Groaner Competition?

danahunter

09-14-2005, 01:11 PM

My addition: reluctant heroes. I'm so very, very sick of the prophesied or chosen hero running away from his/her duty.

DaveKuzminski

09-14-2005, 04:32 PM

Wasn't that story a finalist in the Forry J. Ackerman Most Extreme Groaner Competition?

Not that I'm aware of. Is there actually such a competition?

Axler

09-14-2005, 04:43 PM

Not that I'm aware of. Is there actually such a competition?

Well, if there's not, there should be. I've got a couple of pieces I'd like to submit myself, one dealing with a psychotic who has targeted Kellogg's (working title: wait for it--"Cereal Killer") and another about a really dumb werewolf entitled "Lycandope."

Euan H.

09-15-2005, 05:06 AM

My addition: reluctant heroes. I'm so very, very sick of the prophesied or chosen hero running away from his/her duty.
Unfortunately, I think this one will always be with us. Hero's journey and 'refusal of the call' and all that...

danahunter

09-15-2005, 05:28 AM

Unfortunately true. But people, please: Joseph Campbell didn't say you must be a pathetic wanker crying a billion tears while you're refusing the call! Argh! I can only quote a popular bar sign in Rocky Point: "No Snivelling!"

Winterborne

10-04-2005, 09:49 PM

I like that idea! Very original. Let me know when it comes out. : )

Jaycinth

10-05-2005, 01:26 AM

And I've come to respect all of you a lot more. Remind me to give more than hugs and praise.

But back to the subject of overdone Science Fiction, Fantasy and Horror plot lines.

So what? If you keep beating a dead horse, something interesting is bound to pop out of the bloated carcass. More so under the heat of the midsummer sun, than in the dead cold of winter.

Try taking a hackneyed plot line, then choose a news paper story at random, and blend them. The result may amuse you.

And don't forget to stand back when the dead horse pops.

OH, check the maggots too, one of them might be unique, and worth culturing.

Euan H.

10-07-2005, 05:49 AM

Try taking a hackneyed plot line, then choose a news paper story at random, and blend them.
Right. Well...let's see. Cliche plot line first. Hmm. Well, can't get any more cliche than 'hero finds an object which at first gives him power but then begins to change him into something else' (LOTR, Magician, Elric, etc. ad nauseum).

Now for a news story. Well, scooting off to Yahoo gives the first story as: "BBC Report: Bush says God told him to invade Iraq."

This has definite possibilities.

DaveKuzminski

10-07-2005, 05:21 PM

There you go. Bush saw LOTR, concluded that the ring is still intact and located in Iraq, so he goes there to beat Saddam to it, only has his forces capture Saddam when it appears that Saddam still might gain it first, and remains intent to stay in Iraq until the ring, er, democracy, is obtained.

trebuchet

10-08-2005, 02:36 AM

Still you do have a point that any fantasy book that starts off with the mysterious and ancient mage/druid/mystic showing up to pull the young halfthing/gnome/bobbit away from his peaceful village to defeat the imminent destruction of everything good and true by the Evil Lord of Death/Hell/Evil-Land... Well it's probably not going to be particularly clever in its writing either, is it now? (Yes, I'm looking at you, Terry Brooks.)

Now, I'm not fond of this sort of thing any more either, mind you, and can't speak to any recent sequels, but I read Sword of Shannara when I was ten, I think. Thirty years ago. I was captivated. My friends and I argued over who was going to play whom in our reenactments. Was it so cliched then? And what audience was it written for, anyway? Us, today? I don't think so.

Jaycinth

10-11-2005, 01:15 AM

I'm impressed by what Terry Brooks did in writing it and getting it published. I'm not terribly impressed by the writing style, although I read them as soon as they hit the library.

What I would like to see is a new monster. No Frankensteins (enough with the abused children) No Draculas ( I love Vampires, but it is hard to get them right)

Something that is insidious and new. Not something that has been buried for a millenia ( I'm guilty of that) and dug up. Not 'the thing that must not be named', Something 21st century!

And no matter how long I poke through these horse guts, I, at least, have not found it. Maybe if I beat a dead Llama. . .

preyer

10-11-2005, 04:34 AM

'beat a dead llama....' lol. good one.

anyone who can come up with an original monster will probably hit it big time, eh? new cliches? hm, maybe the evil entity who lives on the internet. i don't know what you'd call the heroes, but i'm sure we've moved beyond 'cyberpunks' as a term. maybe not, i don't know. computers = not my thing.

nah, that bush thing could be interesting. had i more time, i'd play around with it here for a minute or two. instead of beating horses or llamas, though, i'll beat that snotty teenage brat who walks into my store as if *he* owned the place. man, i hate snotty teenage brats. those are the real monsters.

DaveKuzminski

10-11-2005, 07:34 AM

Consider this as a possibility. Two dimensions slip temporarily into an overlapping state because of testing on a planet. Because the slip is centered on a planet, that allows creatures from both dimensions to move back and forth, allowing some creatures from a world in the other dimension to enter our own where they then proceed to wreak havoc on the ecology of the entire world since it's not just one specimen, but entire breeding herds of some that slip in. Now give those creatures some familiar, yet different abilities such as predatory fish that float in the air because they have a gas inside special cells. Their very mobility will make it difficult to get weapons into place to counter them without destroying entire communities. Besides which, there won't be enough weapons to defend the entire world, especially since they're breeding in one or more remote locations thus creating huge herds or schools that then seek prey.

So now you have a story in which you have the dangers of testing, problems of maintaining the current ecology while trying to destroy an alien ecology, a need to arm people to defend themselves and the complications that can bring, and a need to recognize which creatures are natural counters to the predators preying on humans so that you don't destroy them in order to enlist their aid by not killing those.