Which word count to use in query?

Mr Flibble · Feb 14, 2008

Well, I've written a fantasy, and it's currently at 190+k words by Word. Obviously this is a little long, and probably won't get me many partial requests! However, if I use the white space method, ie 250 words * number of pages, I'm down to 125K, which is more likely to be acceptable.

So in my query, which should I put? If I state 125K, should I say I've used the white space method? I don't want the agent thinking I've tricked them in any way.

Any advice much appreciated.

Julie Worth · Feb 14, 2008

IdiotsRUs said:
Well, I've written a fantasy, and it's currently at 190+k words by Word. Obviously this is a little long, and probably won't get me many partial requests! However, if I use the white space method, ie 250 words * number of pages, I'm down to 125K, which is more likely to be acceptable.

So in my query, which should I put? If I state 125K, should I say I've used the white space method? I don't want the agent thinking I've tricked them in any way.

Any advice much appreciated.

The white space method almost always gives you more words, not less, so you're probably doing something wrong. I'd go with the MS word count, and try to get that down to 125k the old fashioned way.

BTW, for the 250 method to mean anything, you should use 1" margins all around, Courier 12 pt, 25 lines per page, and start new chapters on a new page. If you use a smaller font like TNR, that will throw things off, and if you tell an agent that you used the white space method, most won't know what you're talking about.

ascribe · Feb 14, 2008

What's the white space method? I usually end up with too few words by the time I'm done editting. Would this be a better method to use?

Mr Flibble · Feb 14, 2008

Julie Worth said:
The white space method almost always gives you more words, not less, so you're probably doing something wrong. I'd go with the MS word count, and try to get that down to 125k the old fashioned way.

BTW, for the 250 method to mean anything, you should use 1" margins all around, Courier 12 pt, 25 lines per page, and start new chapters on a new page. If you use a smaller font like TNR, that will throw things off, and if you tell an agent that you used the white space method, most won't know what you're talking about.

I'm using TNR at 12, other than that it's all as you say.

I'm just trying to find a way to get that count down, bar hacking the thing to pieces.....*sighs*

Thanks anyway.

BTW - white space method - take the number of pages, multiply by the average 250 words per page ( provided you have 25 lines per page). This takes into account the amount of white space due to dialog etc. Gives a more accurate picture of how big the book will actually be when printed ( as MS word doesn't differentiate between words such as "a" and "antidisenstablishmentarianism")

edit: Tried changing to courier and redoing 250 * pages. Still came up as 165K, which is at least within bounds for fantasy.

Julie Worth · Feb 14, 2008

IdiotsRUs said:
edit: Tried changing to courier and redoing 250 * pages. Still came up as 165K, which is at least within bounds for fantasy.

If you have no dialogue at all, huge paragraphs, and no chapter divisions, that might be possible. My WIP is 98k words by MS count. But by the white space method, it's 115k. You might check your spacing, see if you're actually getting 25 lines/page.

Mr Flibble · Feb 14, 2008

err loads of dialogue, no really long paras, and chapter divisions, 25 lines per standard page. *looks confused, as usual*

Sean D. Schaffer · Feb 14, 2008

According to Writers Market, the 250 method is preferable to the word count on your computer. The publisher needs to know how many finished pages according to their house style, your work is going to take up. So the 250 method is what the publisher is likely looking for ... unless it's an e-publication, which as I understand it, is a whole other ball of wax.

Mr Flibble · Feb 14, 2008

I must use lots of really short words, or something....

Julie Worth · Feb 14, 2008

Or ellipses.

Mr Flibble · Feb 14, 2008

hehe, I don't use them much, except on forums. I don't know why.

Maryn · Feb 14, 2008

FWIW, the 250 words to a page rule depends on 1.25-inch margins left and right, 25 lines per page, and a monospaced font which prints 10 characters per inch, such as Courier 12. It doesn't work unless all those factors are present.

1.25" margins give you 6 inches of text per line. Courier 12 prints 10 characters or spaces per inch, resulting in 60 characters per line. That's ten "words" (a word being any six characters) per line. Times 25 lines, there's the magic 250 words to the page. You can deduct for white space (say, chapter beginnings or endings).

Maryn, not good at math but adequate with arithmetic

Julie Worth · Feb 14, 2008

Maryn said:
1.25" margins give you 6 inches of text per line. Courier 12 prints 10 characters or spaces per inch, resulting in 60 characters per line. That's ten "words" (a word being any six characters) per line. Times 25 lines, there's the magic 250 words to the page. You can deduct for white space (say, chapter beginnings or endings).

Maryn, not good at math but adequate with arithmetic

You might be over-thinking this. The one inch margins allows for the fact that all the 60 spaces aren't used, due to the ragged right edge. So it's 60 spaces on average.

IceCreamEmpress · Feb 14, 2008

Courier 12 is 12 characters per inch. That's what the "12" indicates. The 10-characters-per-inch Courier font is named Courier 10.

The rule of thumb for a "250-words-per-page" page count is to divide the number of characters in the document by 1800.

Julie Worth · Feb 14, 2008

IceCreamEmpress said:
The rule of thumb for a "250-words-per-page" page count is to divide the number of characters in the document by 1800.

Isn't that for pricing translations and so forth?

Julie Worth · Feb 14, 2008

IceCreamEmpress said:
Courier 12 is 12 characters per inch. That's what the "12" indicates. The 10-characters-per-inch Courier font is named Courier 10.

Nowadays most use Courier New or Dark Courier instead of Courier. The font size for the "white space" method is 12 pt, where a point is 1/72 of an inch.

It's so much easier, though, just to forget all that and use the MS count. No agent will object, but some might if you try it the other way.

Sean D. Schaffer · Feb 14, 2008

Julie Worth said:
Nowadays most use Courier New or Dark Courier instead of Courier.

That could be due to the lack of Courier itself as a font in the average word processing program. In all the word processors I've had, I have only had Courier New as an option, never ordinary Courier.

Of course, my experience with word processors is somewhat limited to newer ones. I don't really remember what fonts were available in the late 80's when I first found out there was such a thing as a word processor program. So you all might want to take my post with a grain of salt.

--Sean

IceCreamEmpress · Feb 14, 2008

Julie Worth said:
Isn't that for pricing translations and so forth?

It's a publisher's rule of thumb used for all kinds of calculations. It's an approximation, after all.

I totally agree that you should either give a raw word count OR follow the formula specified by the publisher, if any--there really isn't any reason to try to suss out what the publisher's method of calculating word count is if they don't specify.

I'm still mystified by how IdiotsRUs got a smaller count by the page division method than she had by the raw word count method. It sounds like an arithmetic error.

And I see the confusion about the "Courier12" vs. "Courier" in 12 point thing. It's fresh in my mind, because we went over it recently on another thread and I got it wrong!

Mr Flibble · Feb 15, 2008

IceCreamEmpress said:
I'm still mystified by how IdiotsRUs got a smaller count by the page division method than she had by the raw word count method.

So am I - I tried with my other WIP's and got less each time though. Possibly it's the font thing - even though I've converted the whole thing to courier.

It sounds like an arithmetic error.

Hope not - I'm a book keeper! Sums are what I do.

And I see the confusion about the "Courier12" vs. "Courier" in 12 point thing. It's fresh in my mind, because we went over it recently on another thread and I got it wrong!

And one suspects that's where I'm going wrong - if courier12 is actually different from courier at 12 point then that would be it - because courier at 12 point is all I can do. Although I am getting 12 characters per inch.

IceCreamEmpress · Feb 15, 2008

IdiotsRUs said:
And one suspects that's where I'm going wrong - if courier12 is actually different from courier at 12 point then that would be it - because courier at 12 point is all I can do. Although I am getting 12 characters per inch.

You should be getting 10 characters per inch with Courier at 12 points, because it's 7 points wide and there are 72 points in an inch.

How many characters are in your manuscript?

Also, are you using A4 paper or 8.5" by 11" paper? Because the page-division method only works with US paper (8.5" x 11").

Mr Flibble · Feb 15, 2008

IceCreamEmpress said:
Also, are you using A4 paper or 8.5" by 11" paper? Because the page-division method only works with US paper (8.5" x 11").

And there we have it. It didn't say anything about paper size in the FAQ, so I assumed A4.

Ah well, back to the hack and slash of editting.

Thanks

Julie Worth · Feb 15, 2008

IdiotsRUs said:
And there we have it. It didn't say anything about paper size in the FAQ, so I assumed A4.

I doubt that was it. I changed my WIP to A4, keeping the lines at 25/page, and it grew by ten pages. You'd expect that, since A4 is not as wide.

ReneC · Mar 23, 2008

Sorry for reviving a dormant thread but I wanted to add something I found very useful when formatting my MS to the white space method. I tried using the suggestions here but my MS would fall to either 24 or 26 lines per page, I was having difficulty getting it to be exactly 25 lines. I found this helpful link, so I thought I'd share it here.

May2005_TechTip.pdf

Which word count to use in query?

They've been very bad, Mr Flibble

What? I have a title?

I...love...rejections

They've been very bad, Mr Flibble

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I Tried

What? I have a title?

Hapless Virago

What? I have a title?

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Hapless Virago

They've been very bad, Mr Flibble

Hapless Virago

They've been very bad, Mr Flibble

What? I have a title?

Relapsed insomniac :(