How do you write lyrics?

JoNightshade

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After listening to how III turned KTC's lyrics into a song, I got to wondering.

Are there any special guidelines or rules for writing song lyrics? Conventions everyone uses? How is it the same or different than writing poetry?

I've never done it before, so I'm just curious about the process from different perspectives.
 

maestrowork

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I need to have music in my ears first -- melodies, or some kind of tune to help me get the cadence. Then I think of a theme. I'm not very good at rhymes so that's a struggle with me, but once I have the melodies it's not too difficult to put words to the music... I consider myself a composer first and not a very good lyricist, and I can't go the other way -- meaning, writing the lyrics first and then fitting a melody to it... I don't know why. My brain just doesn't work that way. With Summer Lost (which Jay and I collaborated -- check it out in the Music Lab area), I actually was listening to a song when I came up with the poem, thus it already had some kind of sing-songy cadence to it.
 

KTC

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I'm usually new at everything I try. I've written lyrics a couple of times. I think the ones I wrote for that song were a little less than required words for lyrics. Could have used a couple more verses probably. III did great with what little he was given. I just did freefall, really...the same way I approach a poem. Only difference with lyrics is I try to rhyme. III really had little more than a poem to make into a song, though. (-; A song I wrote lyrics for last year had 4 verses with a chorus and was a little tighter. What you asked about how is it the same or different from writing poetry...I try to approach all my writing in the same way I approach poetry...so I can't really answer that one. I'm sure every person would give you a different answer anyway.


This is kind of interesting: http://www.essortment.com/howtowriteson_rqjw.htm
 

JoNightshade

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Thanks for sharing, guys...

So, more questions here. You usually have to have a "chorus," right? The part that repeats. And then you have verses.

For the individual verses, do you have to make sure all the syllables work out? So like verse one, line one would have the same syllables/cadence as verse three, line one. Yeah?
 

JRH

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Here is an article about the differences between Poetry and Songwriting that I posted before in the Songwriting Forum. In a way this is peripheral to your question but it does pertain to the underlying problems.

*******

Song Lyrics and Poetry are related, but they are very different in many respects. Few serious poems (as opposed to Verse) can be successfully set to music and fewer Song Lyrics can be taken seriously as Poetry when stripped of their Music (Despite examples like Dylan, Cohen, Simon amd Billy Joel, whose lyrics, are considered primarily as "Verse" or "Minor" Poetry, when compared to that of Masters like Yeats, Frost and Eliot) or any Major Poets of Classical Antiquity.

To begin with they have different purposes. Poems are meant to take all forms of experience (both internal and external) and put them in an organized form that will communicate with a reader on a multiple levels, by recreating universal experience so that it might provoke thought or emotion or understanding on multiple levels.

Although Poems can can draw from "Personal" experience, they are more properly suited to dealing with classical questions of Life, Death, History, Conflict, Philosphy, Social Criticism and various moral and ethical issues, and all are most effective if they are presented on a universal level.

The forms that Poems can take are almost unlimited as long as the Basic elements of craftsmanship are employed encompassing Purpose, (whether it be description, analysis , or expression of an emotional or intellectual response to experience, Focus which centers on a single subject and be bounded by Unities of Expression, Thought, and Image which must end in a Denouement or Outcome that Unites the whole.

They can encompass such complexity because they may be examined at leisure and returned to over and over again to capture subtleties of meaning.

Song Lyrics are much more limited as their "primary purpose" is to provide Entertainment and Pleasure by provoking emotional response through describing Personal Interactions, providing Social Criticism, or communicating Feeling.

This may sound roughly similar to the goals of poetry, but "Lyrics", because they must be grasped and absorbed at a rapid pace, are generally limited to a single theme that can be responded to on an emotional or direct level without requiring (or encouraging) thought beyond the basic message, although other levels and any subliminal messages may be generated or otherwise carried by the music itself.

Moreover "Traditional Lyrics' were and are generally encumbered by the necessity of regular Rhythms, Rhyme and a fairly standard over all structure of Verse-Chorus- Bridge-Chorus-Verse-Chorus or variations thereof, which would generally NOT be considered appropriate to Poetry.

Some modern lyrics, (particularly HipHop and Rap) are more free form but still subject to basic Rhythms and constrained by the need for multiple internal Rhymes which are often extremely repetitious and even more limited than "Traditional Lyrics" in the subject matter they can effectively express, and even less inclined to multiple levels of meaning.

I write both Songs and Poetry and find that they not only require differences in approach and intent (aside from my own commitment to elements of craftsmanship) but that they seldom can crossover easily from one form to the other, (although I have in fact done so at least a few times in both directions, and found that, except in a couple of cases it took radical revisions in form to do so).

Hope this gives some insight.

Jim Hoye, (JRH)
 

maestrowork

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Thanks for sharing, guys...

So, more questions here. You usually have to have a "chorus," right? The part that repeats. And then you have verses.

For the individual verses, do you have to make sure all the syllables work out? So like verse one, line one would have the same syllables/cadence as verse three, line one. Yeah?

Yes, usually you have a chorus. Something catchy, and they repeat. Not a MUST, but usually. Rock, and pop seem to require a chorus and repeating verses (AABA, etc.) But Jazz, for example, can be free verse. And then there's musical.

As for syllables... no, I don't count them and try to fit it, but the cadence has to be right. Sometimes I might add a couple more syllables or slur a few notes together if they sound right. For example, if there are five notes, I can either a) fit five syllables such as "I'll be back for you," one for each note or b) group the notes together as one word: "I'll be ba-ck..." or c) give it a few more syllables (staccato): "I'll return to you soon..." That's why to me, knowing the melody helps so I know the rhythm and cadence and I can be flexible about it... so in short, no, the numbers of syllables don't have to match from verse to verse.

Read the lyrics of Summer Lost and listen to Jay sing it, and you'll see what I mean.
 
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III

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For me, each song is different and I never know what to expect. Sometimes I'll hear a melody in my head and the words just fall into place like blocks. Sometimes I'll hear a story with a theme that resonates within me and I'll work on structuring those ideas into a poem and turn it into a song. Sometimes I'll be driving in the car and have an idea and start jotting notes (typically where I do most of my songwriting). Sometimes I'll work on a chord progression on the guitar and fit it with some other ideas I've been working on and cobble together a song.

Sometimes things just fall into place and sometimes it's like making a mosaic out of live cats.

As far as structure, I just try to do what's right for the song. I really like the idea of varying a theme, whether its the rhyme scheme or the idea, in the verses and choruses. But I also love to experiment with linear songs. Prince's Darling Nikki is a great example of linear song crafting. There's no chorus, and there's a basic guideline of chord progression that he wanders back and forth over vocally. Or look at the ryme scheme of When Doves Cry. That chorus is perfection. I think the entire Purple Rain album is songcrafting at its best.

I think lyrics and poetry end up the best when you start with an idea that's really meaningful to you, then you take the time to lovingly craft it and stick with it and keep arranging it until it's something that you find deeply satisfying.

Jay, looking forward to ever-increasing action in the Music Lab
 

Serena Casey

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I'm going to reply as if I've actually written a complete song :D

Usually, lyrics come to me first and melody second, if at all, but the reason I haven't finished one is I really seem to need the melody in order to finish the lyrics. I have lots of ideas for good (I think) songs, but I hesitate to put hours and hours into completing the lyrics without knowing if I'm going to need to change lots of words or phrases to fit the melody or timing better. Then I'm afraid that'll change everything and it will be wasted work.

I know no work is wasted, really, but that's just my excuse, since I never have a block of time where I say, Okay, I'm using the next three hours to work on a song.

Unfortunately, any relatively original melodies that occur to me come in the middle of the night, or a nap, when I'm unable to capture them, and when I wake up they're gone.

This thread makes me in the mood to work on it.
 

ChunkyC

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I was never much of a lyricist. I've rarely written a song on my own, instead I'd collaborate with someone else who came up with the words. Usually, I'd have some kind of chord pattern or even a simple hook that I'd bring to the other person and that would spark their imagination. On occasion, they would already have something and I'd try to come up with music to suit it.

In either case, it always took work to fit the two pieces together. Rarely did the words fit perfectly if they came first, and even if they could be made to fit, it would take some imaginative crafting of melody and cadence on the part of whomever was singing it.

Maybe I just wrote weird music. :D
 

KTC

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I will sometimes spend hours reading lyrics. It's a great way to see the process. I have many lyricist heroes, but my biggest is Bernie Taupin. I read what he does and it boggles the mind. With writing a novel it really helps to read novels. This is also true of lyrics. It's almost like an osmosis way of learning the process. I'm a no rules kind of person...an organic learner. You should try reading through hours of lyrics. As you learn you are also enthralled.
 

rugcat

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I almost always start with a chord structure or a hook, or both. That usually suggests a melody to me, sometimes instantly, often not. The lyrics always come last.

Very rarely, a melody line comes to me, so strong that it stands alone. Then I figure out which chords go with it best. (If it's a complex melody, or jazz oriented, that's not always so obvious.)

I've never written a lyric and tried to set it to music.

Songwriting shares one thing with other forms of writing -- whatever way works for you is best.
 

JoNightshade

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Thanks for all the responses, guys! This has been really interesting so far because it's so foreign to me.
 

JoNightshade

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Okay, I tried to write some song lyrics. I posted them in the music lab if anyone is interested in my amateur attempts. :)
 

bubbagringo

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Sometimes things just fall into place and sometimes it's like making a mosaic out of live cats.

wow...I've heard it put a lot of ways but that sums it up great

(I'm stealing that shit) ;)

for me its always about being inspired...as in I have a pain or an itch that has to come out

when I actually sit down to write the lyrics they always seem to be there...and I rarely edit them very much

the music to go with the words however, usually takes some doin'.....