Perfectionism: When is enough; enough?

Oboy! I get to tell two of my favorite stories!

(1). Tennessee Williams, in an interview said, (paraphrasing here), "A writer is never satisfied with his work. No matter how much you go over it, you can open it to any page and immediately think, 'This should be that, and that should be this...'"
"Then how do you know when it's done?" the interviewer asked.
"Oh, that's easy!" Williams laughed. "My publisher sends someone, who takes it away from me!"

(B). Ernest Hemingway was once asked at a party why he (famously) re-wrote the last page of The Old Man and the Sea forty-seven times (actual number may vary). He answered, "To get it right."

I know, I know, this is no help at all...

Okay, no more stories, just a quote, from Oscar Wilde:

"This morning, I took out a comma, and this afternoon, I put it back in."

My rule of thumb (which I should call Oscar's rule): when my "rewriting" reaches the stage where all I'm doing is moving commas around, I stop.

Oh yeah, as to your specific questions, personally, I try to write well at all times, but if I'm having trouble with a sentence, paragraph, etc., I go with whatever I've got and go back to it later. You can't write a novel until you have the first draft done. And you can always go back to a trouble spot...

I give myself permission to sit there and tinker with sentences until I get it right, even on the first draft.

But if I'm just sitting there staring at a blinking cursor, I make myself power through and move on. Then I come back later.

I'm not a perfectionist...

I'm also not an introvert, am not a high school outcast, and can't spell.

Gotta wonder if I'm supposed to be doing this...

I not only re-write the sentence or insert a better word, I then start at the beginning of that sequence of events and read the whole lot again. Sometimes the change that looks right in the sentence doesn't fit well in the paraqgraph, or the chapter.

Then the magic happens. The section I had a niggling doubt about suddenly sounds right. (I read my work out loud to test the flow, even though it worries the dog). It's not a scientific formula for me, it's the gut feeling.

I think that besides being a perfectionist, I'm always finding a "better way" to present a scene.
I'm constantly tweaking and writing things in other ways.
I only stop when it looks good. When I think it shows everything I have in my mind.
It's hard to explain, really.
I guess I want the magic to be there the first time around. Because if it doesn't, I'm just not feeling it. I guess I need to feel it for me to move on.

It's like trying to build a rope bridge that has planks of wood.
I can't just put the ropes across the cliff, and then put the planks and do the knots.
I need to throw the already made bridge across the cliff.
And besides that, before I throw it I need to make sure the planks and the ropes aren't weak.
It needs to stand. Even if it's just the first draft.

And something that I developed, thanks to being an inexperienced, first-time writer, is that sometimes, when I don't feel very motivated to write, I read the whole thing from the beginning.
I usually find that gets me into the flow.
However, as I read it through, it's like I'm doing something I shouldn't be doing until the whole story is down on paper.

And I'm constantly tweaking my dialogue. It's a pain, some times. Because I know it can be better. I know it can sound much better. I know that I could have a lot more than what I wrote first.
And I feel like I can't wait for that time to repair. I have to do it then.

For me it would really be hard to have the first draft ready 'in no time' because the story I chose to tell is an epic, and it's long and I really want it to be the best I can the first time around.
I dunno.

I'm trying to get over it and I've already started making something I call "Author's notes", where the narrative stops and I literally write to my future self, in the middle of the page, addressing things that I now start to convince myself can work on later.

When it stops making my head feel funny and hurt every time I read it, I think maybe after the next round it might be close to finished.

Don't. Ever. Post. In. Courier. I. Will. Kill. You.

I heard the author of this book speaking at a writer's group meeting a few months ago:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/1592641229/?tag=absolutewritedm-20
She talked of the importance of the first page and such. She said she rewrote the first SENTENCE a large number of times, like 25 or 50 times. Maybe she got to where she was only moving commas around in it.

My biggest chore of rewriting is when I lay that sentence down for the first time. It's immediate. I don't want to come back, but I inevitably will, but to the larger picture. I try to get it right the first time in the hopes that it will save me a whole lot of heartache and fretting later. I can't stand editing and can't apply the "write crap" rule just to get ink splashed. So I try to get as accurate as I can on the first pass--the foundation.

Tri

Terran said:

While working on your first draft, do you fight it out, until every word, sentence and paragraph are exactly as you want it?
Or:
Do you throw it all down on the page as fast as you can get it out of your head then clean it up on the second draft?
Curious to see what other peoples methods are.

Click to expand...

I make my first draft as clean as I can. My usual practice is to revise my previous day's work before moving on with anything new. The only exception is the opening. I agonize over those first few paragraphs until I think I have them exactly right and then I can write the rest of the story.
Linnea

I do all editing and revisions on the rewrite. Unless I have conjured up a plot change that needs to be integrated asap.

Terran said:

While browsing through the thread: What's the worst part of writing a novel? I noticed perfectionism as common theme among most writers. Though this trait was listed as a dislike, and I completely understand why, I believe this is a trait all good writers share.
As one who has spent countless hours, writing and re-writing a scene in search of that perfect flow, that magical combination of words where when joined begin to take on a life of their own.....
I have to wonder; when is it enough?

While working on your first draft, do you fight it out, until every word, sentence and paragraph are exactly as you want it?
Or:
Do you throw it all down on the page as fast as you can get it out of your head then clean it up on the second draft?
Curious to see what other peoples methods are.

Click to expand...

I, too, think perfectionism can be a positive trait, particularly when it comes to a job which requires one to be meticulous! (I actually saw a book on great careers for perfectionists. It's nice to know we can be of good use! )

Now, as to your questions:

My rule is, it's "enough" when you just can't STAND to even look at the thing anymore. During the editing stages of my novel manuscript, when I just had a few more chapters to go, I wanted to lock myself in the bathroom! I'd reached the point where I just couldn't bear to go any further with it anymore. That's when I know: "It's ready."

Well, either that or the deadline is right around the corner.

I TRY to throw the first draft out in one shot. "Try" is the keyword here. I constantly have to force myself to JUST WRITE IT and don't stop to fix typos, give unnamed characters a name, rewrite paragraphs, etc. It's a struggle, but I truly believe that it's best to write the first draft in one full swoop. Just start writing it and DO NOT LOOK BACK until you reach the very end.

And even there I feel so tempted to change things.

Terran said:

While working on your first draft, do you fight it out, until every word, sentence and paragraph are exactly as you want it?
Or:
Do you throw it all down on the page as fast as you can get it out of your head then clean it up on the second draft?
Curious to see what other peoples methods are.

Click to expand...

Is there some way to combine both options?

I claim that I'm on my second draft, but I never actually finished the first. My novel tends to be a kind of amoebous (sp? word?) blob that gets larger as I throw down words and then smaller as I write around in various places, perfecting prose and deleting sections/characters. I'm now on my second version of this blob, even though I stopped the first version because I realized I needed to change something major about the MC.

My perfectionism really feels like a disease sometimes...

I will say sometimes perfectionism is paralyzing. Change for change's sake is not necessarily good. I've met writers still working on their first novel 15 years later and who have not moved forward and I've met writers who produce copious numbers of first drafts but never a fully edited finished product. I think there is room in an artist's mentality for small parts of both...

Greenwolf103 said:

I TRY to throw the first draft out in one shot. "Try" is the keyword here. I constantly have to force myself to JUST WRITE IT and don't stop to fix typos, give unnamed characters a name, rewrite paragraphs, etc. It's a struggle, but I truly believe that it's best to write the first draft in one full swoop. Just start writing it and DO NOT LOOK BACK until you reach the very end.

And even there I feel so tempted to change things.

Click to expand...

Boy are you lucky to be able to do that. I can't. If something bugs me, I fix it immediately and can't move forward until I'm satisfied with my fix. I want my first draft to be the best I can make it and expect that by the time I'm done, my writing has improved so my revisions will be that much tighter. But that's just me. I know writers who are so good that their first draft IS their last draft. I think I hate them. Well, maybe not but I sure do envy them.
Linnea

JoNightshade said:

I give myself permission to sit there and tinker with sentences until I get it right, even on the first draft.

But if I'm just sitting there staring at a blinking cursor, I make myself power through and move on. Then I come back later.

Click to expand...

Absolutely. Especially the moving-on part: I must remember that.

I had to learn to control my Sword of Perfection, keep it sheathed until needed, ignore something until the pot on the back burner of my brain finally sends up the perfect bubble. It will, usually, though it might take a few months. Meanwhile, I get the next chapters written.

Perfectionism kept me from getting past four or five chapters for years. On the other hand, Nanowrimo showed me that just slapping things down as fast as I could (which in my case, isn't very fast) could get downright traumatic.

So now I try to write decently for the first draft. I'll pause, and try to think of a better way to say things, spiff things up a bit if need be. Still, the goal of the first draft is to create a pleasing shape. Refining and polishing will come later. There is no point in polishing something for days on end, only to decide the whole scene has to go. That is where I have found the balancing point that works for me.

I write the first draft down fast, with little to no editing. I just need to get if out of my head and I'm always coming up with new things to add or revise (especially in world-building). But I don't go back and edit or change it. I keep a running list of these things and add or modify my 2nd draft. I finished a first draft last week of a 100K novel and had 4 single spaced papes of notes on changes/additions, plus notes on goals, motivations, conflicts & characterization. I shocked myself that it took me only 5 days (rather than weeks) to make my all my changes and additions. So now I'm on the next revision, adding sensory description, fixing show vs. tell issues and checking paragraph/sentence flow/structure. Once I'm done with that, I'll start editing. When I'm sick to death of editing and only find myself changing words I've already changed, then I'm done.

It scares me that my first-pass revisions went so well. It's my 3rd completed novel and either my writing has improved and I'm getting it right in the first draft or I'm missing the boat somewhere! It just went too smoothly. Does anyone else ever feel this way when things seem to come together well?

I write it all down, but try to make it sound good the first time around. At the end of the day I do a little clean up and when I'm done with the whole book I do more revisions.

I'm not a perfectionist, but I certainly get the jitters sometimes if I'm not writing, editing, or researching every day.

I have to say that is the problem in why I have been unable to go beyond my first chapter. I posted here to be critiqued and got alot of great feedback .So I decided to rewrite it, make the changes. I figure I need to get it right so I can know where to go from there. (Either way I need help!!!). If you knew how many copies of chpt 1 I have stored-you'd think I am crazy.

Hi Angel,
My advice is to not stop at chapter one to rewrite. Write the whole thing through first then go back and rewrite and rewrite and rewrite...

As you're writing your story through the first time, you may find that you have to go back to chapter one and make a change to the plot or a character and possibly have to throw out all those words you spent so much time reworking.

For example, in my current WIP, strange and scary things are going on inside a family's new home. In the first draft of the story, the house was a 70's ranch-style home, but as I got deeper into the story, I realized it had to be an older house to explain why the things were happening. A few other elements also needed to be changed. Now I am rewriting the earlier chapters and rewording a LOT.