Outline vs. Step Outline

My feeling is, don't bother with an outline unless either:

1) You absoute cannot work without first doing an outline

or

2) Your client (or prospective client) absolutely will not accept a script without an accompanyig outline.


That said,I sometimes do outlines, but they have always bee 100% of my preferences. And the style/format/layout I chose was pretty free-form. It was exclusively for MY purposes during the gestational process of writer.

If I ever landed an assignment, and if they said: "We want an outline first, adnwe want it that outline to follow this exact format," I would be sure to smile and say: "Sounds like another step in the overall step-deal. So sure--for an extra fee I will also do an outline."

Plot Device said:

If I ever landed an assignment, and if they said: "We want an outline first, adnwe want it that outline to follow this exact format," I would be sure to smile and say: "Sounds like another step in the overall step-deal. So sure--for an extra fee I will also do an outline."

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It most likely wouldn't work just like that, and especially not in TV land - which I think is what Ryen' was referring to.

The outline is not a separate/extra fee in the deal - it is normally part of the deal.

And if the outline was acceptable, the fee would also be part of your overall fee for the script. 10% in most cases (same with treatments). And this 10% would be deducted when you started the script (even a rewrite of an original pilot that you may have submitted)

Could be different with US TV. Not sure about that.

A beat outline, or Step outline are generally used by the writer in outlining his/her story, usually for your eyes only(so I have heard).

Maybe a Synopsis, is what they are referring to.
I Have a copy of the Synopsis for the first Star Wars Titled(The Star Wars).
This is eight pages in length, including the title page.
It has about twenty to thirty paragraphs, which give a run down of the overall story.

If you wish to do an outline , the Beat outline is a simple one or two line description of each scene.
The Step Outline is an expanded version of the Beat outline, giving a lot more detail, including information as to how it might be shot.
Daniel.

RylenolFlu said:

Hey everyone, I'm going forward with a project I've garnered a significant amount of interest in and have a question about the outline process.

I have written outlines for television specs I have done, but these have been step outlines. Is it more helpful to type up a scene outline (with slugs and the like) or just a paragraph type outline? Anyway, just looking for some opinions on this part of the creative process. Thanks.

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Basically, step outlines are generally required for work in TV. Sometimes, when you have assignment work, you are also required to deliver an outline or a treatment -- which is more detailed than a step outline (I must admit, I've never heard the term "scene" outline -- I'd think that if you've reached that level of detail, you might as well be writing the movie) and is simply describing the events of the story in present tense prose with little or no dialogue.

But if you are doing it for yourself, the short answer is - do what works for you. If a step outline is helpful, do it. If you want something with more detail, that's fine. I've written things and written treatments first (usually six to ten pages). I've also written scripts with no outlines and no treatments.

If this is simply "work product" -- only you can decide what sort of preparation works for you. My only suggestion is that, however much or however little detail you put into your outlines/treatments - don't feel locked into them when you get into the script stage. Allow yourself the freedom to discover new directions and new ideas as the specific details of your writing suggest new possibilities to you.

NMS

outline

first you make one line of each scene. there should be some 60 of these.

this'll be your outline.

then there wiil be division of into 2 or 3 points of that scene. this is my method.

this helps in knowing where you want to go, and where you are headed.

now one thing to remember is that, this is just like a blue print. there have been instances where I began with a scene or an event and when the script was finished that very scene was not there in the script.

you have to be flexible to such changes. the script will keep getting changed if it goes into production for reasons like weather, budget, ego problems.

regards,
Aceinc1

60 scenes? i thought 40 was good for an average 110 page script.

I've heard various numbers quoted by gurus and pros. Memory's playing tricks on me, is it Save The Cat that recommends 40 scenes as a rough guide? And was it George Lucas who said write 60 x 2-minute scenes and you have a film?

-Derek

yep, you're right, d, that was 'save the cat.' his breakdown formula called for nine scenes each for act I, the first part of act II, the last part of act II, and for act III. the remaining scenes, he says, are there for you to play around with if you feel the need. while that's a bit formulaic for my tastes, i see his point considering the kind of 'high concept' 'four quadrant' movies he's talking about.

i can see lucas saying that, though i don't know if he did. i think it was 'empire' whose first draft was in the 160 page range. so was 'network''s, that i've heard. what i do like about snyder's 15-point beat sheet is that it *should* keep the script within reasonable lengths, assuming of course you're not doing something like 'lord of the rings.'

dpaterso said:

I've heard various numbers quoted by gurus and pros. Memory's playing tricks on me, is it Save The Cat that recommends 40 scenes as a rough guide? And was it George Lucas who said write 60 x 2-minute scenes and you have a film?

-Derek

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I have to confess, in all the years that I've been writing screenplays, I've never yet counted the number of scenes in one of my screenplays. I couldn't even begin to tell you how many scenes are in any of them, nor could I even imagine why I should know or why I should care.

A scene should be exactly as long as the particular requirements of the *scene* need it to be. When it's reached that length, you should end the scene and move on to the next scene. When you've reached the end of your last scene, then your movie is over.

NMS

Can't/won't argue with that. I've never counted scenes either or felt the need to.

But bear in mind that many members in this forum are startup aspiring screenwriters looking to make some kind of sense of the mysterious process. So posted questions will range from "Is my 500-page script too long?" to "Why can't I use Bubblegum font?" to "How many scenes should my script contain?"

Methinks most "screenwriting for dummies" type books and certain gurus supply general rule of thumb advice that at least keeps raw new talent in the ballpark until they learn a little more.

So it's all very well to say "Write however many scenes your script needs" -- but then, as sure as the sun rises in the east, you'll encounter the rogue aspiring screenwriter whose script has 1,715 scenes (in Bubblegum 10 font, no less).

That's when those "ballpark" suggestions come in useful.

-Derek

dpaterso said:

Can't/won't argue with that. I've never counted scenes either or felt the need to.

But bear in mind that many members in this forum are startup aspiring screenwriters looking to make some kind of sense of the mysterious process. So posted questions will range from "Is my 500-page script too long?" to "Why can't I use Bubblegum font?" to "How many scenes should my script contain?"

Methinks most "screenwriting for dummies" type books and certain gurus supply general rule of thumb advice that at least keeps raw new talent in the ballpark until they learn a little more.

So it's all very well to say "Write however many scenes your script needs" -- but then, as sure as the sun rises in the east, you'll encounter the rogue aspiring screenwriter whose script has 1,715 scenes (in Bubblegum 10 font, no less).

That's when those "ballpark" suggestions come in useful.

-Derek

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Well of course, then you're getting into a very different area -- knowing how many scenes your story needs, and knowing how long a scene needs to be to convey what it needs -- or even *if* you need to have a particular scene at all.

Paul Thomas Anderson is someone worth looking at in this regard - at the way he will take a scene up to a certain point and then -- bang. Out.

Spoiler Alert --

In There Will Be Blood there are a number of occasions where you can see this economical use of scenes. His son's been deafened. Finally, the Doctor is examining him -- he's struggling, being held down.

Well, we know what's coming next -- the scene where the Doctor is going to give the diagnosis -- your son's deaf. I can't help him.

But it doesn't come. Since we already know it, there's no point in having it. So it's not there. We cut to the next scene, in which the Lewis character is having a discussion about finding somebody -- bringing them in to help teach his son.

Later, there's a scene with his long lost brother and a comment passes between them on a beach, something about peach trees, and Lewis just stares at him -- and we realize, just based on that -- this guy isn't really his brother. We don't know why, what he said that was wrong. But it was something.

Next scene, they're in some music hall. The brother asks him for some money. Lewis gives it to him. He goes off. Lewis is just staring at him, thinking. Doesn't say anything.

Next scene. The brother's asleep. Bam, Lewis has a gun to his head -- Who are you? And the guy confesses.

Lewis never explains what tipped him off. We don't know.

It doesn't matter.

Scenes stripped down simple. Written, as it were, in script, not printed on the screen in block letters.

When you talk about skillful writing (or moviemaking) what you're really talking about, on some level, is a skillful act of communication. That means having a really clear understanding of what your words and images are going to convey to an audience. Knowing just exactly when they are going to *get* it. And when they get it -- end of scene.

NMS

true. having not developed a keen eye, you have to apply common sense to any advice, especially that which purports to know. a novel? no problem.

see, i can tell a story in fiction form. telling the story isn't an issue, it's telling an effective story *in a script format* that needs to clock in at or around a certain length that i'm trying to learn about. like anyone else i think, i'm looking at advice here and there and everywhere and seeing what i can see and agree with, looking for common denominators, hints and tips, particular craft elements, and how the business is run, etc.. so these books and articles and such serve merely as a way to cut through years of trial and error. no, i doubt some guy's formula will work for me any more than some guy's horse betting system will rake in cash hand over fist, but it took this guy years to develop it and there's likely something worthwhile to take away from it considering i know dick about screenwriting. (remember, i don't know how to write a screenplay per se, but that's far removed from knowing how to tell a story.)

were i to start today, this is what i'd do (and under the idea that i'm not trying to reinvent the wheel, just trying to tell a story within the parametres): i would get myself some 3 x 5 cards that serves for scenes and jot down what scenes i have already in conjunction with an outline that expands on those scenes. i'm not reaching for the stars on the first several ideas by any means. the first idea is a simple low-budget horror script, of which i can't count how many i've watched (i can't get enough of B horror for some dumb reason), so it shouldn't be difficult finding one that's got roughly the same tone i'm looking to achieve. it'll be a decent movie ~ i don't plan on writing stupid shit so why pick out a bad movie?

anyway, i'll indeed sit down and compare the movie with a beatsheet just to see how well the two compare. i'll count scenes. i'll maybe even time scenes, or at least pay attention to their general length in relation to one another. i'll do all this so i know and not with the idea of copying, rather to get a feel and make sure the advice from these gurus just all wasn't a ton of bullshit. i'll do that with several movies and will read the scripts if those are available.

and there's one thing i've got to admit right now: i know me, and i know that i'm not going to be one of those guys that reads a hundred scripts before penning a single word. i'll knock out about twenty of the movies i admire (if i can find those scripts) with an eye towards specific things. imo, 'network' should be required reading. my goal there would be to concentrate on dialogue (not to say it isn't a great story. and besides for some 'well, bob, as you know...' exposition early on, it's the perfect example of the difference between great dialogue v. realistic dialogue. that is, regular people aren't usually that witty, talk that fast or instill that much intellectual concepts in their average speech right off the top of their heads. compare that dialogue with 'the godfather' and there's an ocean of difference.) i'll read something else to focus on action. then read a few samples of each for comparison's sake. and with all of them i'll want to pay attention to character description and introductions, scene set-ups, the flow of the action, scene direction (if any). i'm also of the mind that i don't want necessarily a script that's been written and directed by the same guy. i'm sure 'pulp fiction' is very entertaining to read, but i also have to wonder how much of that would be applicable to the spec script i'm trying to get out, know what i mean? and i want to be sure i'm looking at specs, not shooting drafts.

but at some point i'll have to actually begin, you know, writing a screenplay! at some time you'll have the basic format down along with some nice stylistic things to do. i'm not sure reading another fifty screenplays will help me with format. i'm sure it wouldn't hurt, though i'm not sure what i'd gain would be a dealmaker, either. it's like those people who read voraciously and yet still can't produce a story worth reading. what's the point of all that 'research' if you just can't do the job? what, is another hundred books to your credit going to magickally make your writing all come together? probably not. there's got to be a cut-off point where you feel confident enough to start the job.

i'll give you an example: recently i started a new job building humvee engines. they wouldn't even let me do the first thing until i spent two daze observing. honestly, they could have started me off after about half an hour after walking through the door. i've started more complicated jobs after being shown once and the guy standing over me for a minute to make sure i could do the job. two different cut-off points, same result. mileage will vary from person to person.

the idea is if i know what i'm looking for then i don't have to slog through six months of material waiting for inspirations and epiphanies. not that it's not an ongoing learning process and those twenty are the only ones i'll ever read, not by a long shot, just that to get me up and running with a real sense of how to pull things off i don't need a thousand examples. does that sound too over-confident?

i'm nowhere near there yet. i've got the rest of this book to read, i want to compare it to another, i've the scripts to knock out, and a story to add meat to in the meanwhile. after a few scripts are banged out to my satisfaction, i'll promptly panic and forget the first thing i should do, and i'll be asking a lot of basic questions which, if those books are worth their weight, i should already know the answers to.

if i can't do forty scenes, i sure can't do sixty, though, eh? lol. i've a few movies here and there and i like to *think* i have some kind of sense of scope, so if i know it's a slam-bam-thank-you-ma'am rom-com, i'll likely be down in that forty range as opposed to a sweeping mob epic that spans the decades.

nm, i think that's a part of storytelling that i'm interested in, not only with scriptwriting but in fiction, too. of course there's a difference, but i don't think anyone would be here if they didn't think they had an innate way of telling a tale. some are wrong. woefully, terribly, horribly wrong on occasion. some will then say to themselves, 'well, if i work hard at it and do this that and other i'll be okay.' and some of those some might actually sell something, 'proving' that mean old critiquer wrong. some folk, imo, operate on the assumption that if they immerse themselves in this stuff long enough that it'll sink in even if they accomplish it through absolute rote.

others just seem to know what to do. naturally that's based on a lot of their own research and experience, too, but it seems that sometimes people just don't get it at all, ever, and if it's not written down in some book somewhere they'll never figure it out.

in fiction, i'm forever harping about finding an editing technique that you can live with. i think your's is a perfect example of a guy who knows how to use editing to good effect (or so it would seem without actually seeing that movie). it another one of those things that you can learn by reading about it, but if you can't effectively apply it then it might not help. some people just can't inflict harm on their own babies. and then you can throw all the advice at someone and they'll say, 'well, they did it in this movie!'

but, uh, you realize you're using an uwe boll film as justification, don't you?

and these would be the same fiction writers who go on for three pages talking to the doctor about what can be done for the boy because they learned some fact along the way and want to make sure the reader is duly impressed. then they'll read about stopping the scene when it's done, but, guess what?, they'll think that will never apply to them or never know when to apply it. but, oh, 'i'm a visual person!'

i'm not overly worried about my editing skillz, but even i admit i could benefit from writing a television script if that would help me know when a scene 'should' end. i'm probably like a million other guys out there who watch deleted scenes and wonder, 'that wasn't long, it was kinda funny, why did they take that out?' because it didn't need to be there and there are better editors in this world than i, that's why. a lot of times there's commentary involved that *tells* you why a scene was removed. well, you don't have to hit me over the head a million times with a salami, though i know i'll write things that will (hopefully) end up on the cutting room floor.

i've always said that editing is a separate art. that applies to fiction and movies.

i think, too, that if you're faced with a scene that isn't as skillful (i'd called it effective ~ tomatoes/tomahtoes) as it needs to be but has some merit, you can delete it an hope it doesn't matter, arrange the scenes differently, and/or take the gist of that scene and put it in the one before or after. that's generally how i edit my fiction, though i admit i'll have to be probably more thrifty in a script. after all, novels *do* offer a lot of freedoms, such as being somewhat allowed to expound on things a movie might otherwise have to imply.

i think it's somewhat telling that one of those 'basic' questions i don't see here is 'how do i edit my script?' i'm sure there's a thread about it somewhere, but i'm also just as sure to see ten 'how do you like my logline?'s before then.

I just glanced through a recent script - 107 pages, 65 scenes, basically. (Not that any of this matters, I was curious.) Of course, then you get into what constitutes a scene. You could have two people doing something in one room, leave that room to another room, where someone else enters and one of them leaves - so you've changed characters and locations (rooms) but it's still one flowing scene.

Anyway, in and out is the way to go - enter as late as possible, leave as early as possible.

that's true, livin, what does constitute a scene? i could have forty-five cards in front of me (theoretically, i've not gotten that far yet) and each one is a distinct scene, but when you go to write it out there may several little pieces you need to add to make the scenes connect (again, theoretically for the purposes of the discussion). technically it's probably a scene, but i don't think that's what blake snyder ('save the cat') had in mind when he suggested 40 scenes. i mean, if you count stock footage of an airplane landing, is that a scene? if so then i can easily see where 60 scenes could be there.

and i'm not sure what 'continuous' means in the slugline.

'enter as late as possible, leave as early as possible' is something i'm still trying to wrap my senses around. there's still an awful lot of fiction-thinking i have. that's kind of like one of those bits of advice given even to a novelist which pretty much goes instantly ignored. i don't think i can ignore that in screenwriting, eh? i'll get it worked out, though.

preyer said:

i mean, if you count stock footage of an airplane landing, is that a scene?

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No. Especially not for these purposes.

preyer said:

if so then i can easily see where 60 scenes could be there.

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No, if that were the case, I'd have 100+ scenes sometimes.

My 65 scenes contained more than 65 slug lines - I had to ballpark it a little, clumping a few here and there. But, it's basically 65 scenes. Some scripts would be much harder to count in this regard with juxtapositions and intercuts, etc...

i wouldn't have counted it either, but to be honest i've never seen anyone actually describe what a 'scene' entails, as if it's just understood. and maybe it mostly is, at least up 'til someone starts applying an interpretation to it.

so, out of curiosity, since you have 107 pages, would you guess then that your movie would run roughly an hour and forty-seven minutes shot as is? so, with that timeframe, you've got about 65 scenes. that averages to be 2.26 minutes per scene. so i can see now where you'd have that many scenes. what kind of story is it? i ask because off-hand i'd think dramas may have scenes that run a bit longer on average because of the dialogue, but i don't know that for sure.

preyer said:

since you have 107 pages, would you guess then that your movie would run roughly an hour and forty-seven minutes shot as is?

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In so much as that rule applies, I would say it is appropriate enough for this script also.

preyer said:

what kind of story is it? i ask because off-hand i'd think dramas may have scenes that run a bit longer on average because of the dialogue, but i don't know that for sure.

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Psychological Drama.

I just checked another script - 110 pages, about 86 scenes (although this one's tougher to discern due to a lot of juxtapositions). It's a drama.

well this thread has gone way off the original question.

anyhoo - i just stopped in to add: FD (and possible MM) software has a reports feature where you can easily find out how many scenes you have. also how many: times at this location, times this character speaks, times this character speaks to a different character, you can isolate each character's dialogue, etc...

these are actually great features for various reasons. ie - if you have a location that only comes up once in your entire script then you should probably eliminate it and find that action to happen someone else. you can see that your antagonist is in more scenes than your protag or that they only interact twice in the entire script, etc...

so many detailed questions can be answered. one may think they're not important but for marketing (to a producer or an a-list actor) purposes these things may need to be addressed and you can fix them in the rewriting process.

yeah, sorry, ry, i think i hijacked your thread. ya gotta watch me, i'll do that....