Newb.

Neon · Feb 7, 2008

Hi everyone, i am new to this board. Ive always loved writing and as a child i was constantly writing short stories, when i grew up i tried my hand at writing a few novels however i tend to get bored by the 5th chapter and lose track of what i am wanting to say.
However, i have a new storyline at the moment which i am completely in love with, im writing it because i want to write and not because i need something to write (which i think was my problem in the past).
Anyhow, i am having a few problems i was hoping you could help with??
I tend to write alot of dialogue and im not sure if thats a bad thing or not, i just feel like you can learn alot about characters through what they say and how they say it- am i wrong and should i be adding in more narrator description?
I am currently writing with a plan, i know what i want to write and what chapter it will be in. Will that give my story too much of a structured feel?
Also- from reading other posts i see a lot of you have attended creative writing courses- i havent, am i doomed?
Thanks!

Shweta · Feb 7, 2008

Neon!

We're in the same boat with novels. I'm hoping that the current one is the first I'll finish, and I figure being excited is a good sign!

On dialogue, I'd say you absolutely need more than dialogue -- but not necessarily right now! Everyone's first draft is different, and if sketching it out, mainly by dialogue, works for you, that seems to me to be a fine way of getting that first draft down. Good luck

What you described is pretty much how I used to write short stories, and sometimes still do. I do find that I end up ditching or changing a lot of that dialogue on the second draft, while I add other things and try to really visualize the scene -- but that's not a problem, it's just one of many ways of approaching this, and yeah, it does let me know a lot about the characters.

Plans, like everything else, really work for some people, and really freeze some people up. And then there are the people who make detailed plans as a sort of safety net, and then ignore them and wing it, knowing that if it doesn't work, they have a plan. Everybody's different.

As for the creative writing courses -- they work for some people, and are terrible for others. You're not doomed. The only way to be doomed is to stop writing.

So! Keep writing!

And don't stop.
(on pain of doom)

PS you might want to swing by the Newbie Forum and introduce yourself there too - it's a friendly place with lots of useful information

(I never actually did that, but it seems to be a good thing to do).

Neon · Feb 7, 2008

Thanks!
I really had no idea there were this many people who were so into writing.
Obviously as i am quite new to this, i am quite ignorant too (apologies! but i do want to learn!). How many drafts do you tend to go through before you get to your final version?
I didn't actually see the newbie forum untill i posted here, oops, but i will be posting in there too.
What kind of novels do you write?

Mr Flibble · Feb 7, 2008

I tend to write alot of dialogue and im not sure if thats a bad thing or not, i just feel like you can learn alot about characters through what they say and how they say it-

I wish I had that problem. My chracters always clam up when I need them to talk, well all except one Loudmouth.

Dialogue is a great way of showing character / emotions rather than telling. A few beats sprinkled in to keep the reader grounded in where they are / what they're doing is good too. It's all a matter of balance - something which comes with practice ( I hope, or I'm doomed too)

Maybe when you've settled in , pop something in the Share Your Work forum - it's invaluable for getting an unbiased eye to look at what you've done.

I write fantasy, and as many drafts as it takes. Too many on one project - I should really give it a rest and try something else.

:welcome:

Paichka · Feb 7, 2008

I love 'party guy'.

Anyway, Neon, welcome to the Novels board! I'm pretty new my own self, have yet to finish a novel (writing, not reading

) and haven't gone to any creative writing courses. If we're doomed, at least we're doomed together.

Shweta gave you some great advice. The advice I'll add is to check out the Learn Writing with Uncle Jim thread -- there's some great practical advice in there about beating the "Mid-Book Blues".

Enjoy! This place is fun.

Neon · Feb 7, 2008

IdiotsRUs- Thanks for the advice, i think i may be too scared to post my work for critique though, i have a feeling it's no where near as good as some of the stuff you are all writing, i know there are alot of published writers around. Fantasy sounds like alot of fun, you must be very creative!
Paichka-thanks for the tip, i'll take a look, are you also writing fantasy?

Mr Flibble · Feb 7, 2008

i have a feeling it's no where near as good as some of the stuff you are all writing,

You haven't seen the utter trash that was my query letter.

Shweta · Feb 7, 2008

Oh right, I knew I was missing something. Thanks, Paichka!

Here is the Learn Writing with Uncle Jim thread.

Neon: I've been known to go through 15-20 drafts for a short story. But mostly I give 'em up within 10 or so. For a novel? I dunno. Haven't finished one yet. My guess is three more than I want to :tongue

Added: Oh and, Share Your Work isn't for showing off our wonderful babies, it's for learning what we're doing wrong and getting constructive feedback. The best way to get a feel for it is to wander over and look at other people's work, and try giving them helpful comments. That will also get people to know who you are before you ask them to spend time on yours

And you're in the right place. This is a great place to learn! I know I've learned an awful lot since I wandered in here.

Mandy-Jane · Feb 7, 2008

Paichka · Feb 7, 2008

Neon said:
Paichka-thanks for the tip, i'll take a look, are you also writing fantasy?

Yeah, though some days I feel like it's writing me. *grumble*

Charlie Horse · Feb 7, 2008

The most important thing I've learned as a writer is to make yourself write everyday, no matter what. If your creative juices aren't flowing then write crap. But whatever you do, keep writing. It's like practicing the piano. It may not sound good at first, but if you do it enough and are dedicated you'll get better.

Prawn · Feb 7, 2008

Amen to that! 1000 words a day, baby!

Neon · Feb 7, 2008

Thanks for all of the advice- i really need it!

Do you suggest i keep writing untill im done, and then go back and edit or should i edit as i write?

Shweta · Feb 7, 2008

Again, this depends on the person.

But writing till you're done is a good way to get that first draft done. So if you can, that's probably the best approach.

Nateskate · Feb 7, 2008

First, hi and welcome aboard.

You're not doomed for not taking creative writing, though it can help if you did.

You're asking the right questions. Getting a novel to flow requires balance, If you have too much or too little narrative or dialogue it will throw off the pacing. It's a Goldilocks thing. For a book to flow you need to get the right mix.

icerose · Feb 7, 2008

Perhaps you are an outliner.

If you find your story floundering by chapter five, then before you even start have a chapter by chapter outline. It's so you know exactly what's going to happen in each chapter. It helps keep things interesting and keeps you from getting bogged down.

Try it. It might help. Other than that all I can say is be persistant with your writing because you'll learn a whole lot more from one "The End" then you will with a thousand beginnings.

Also perhaps try short stories. Get practice working with a story arc on a small scale.

Shweta · Feb 7, 2008

icerose said:
Also perhaps try short stories. Get practice working with a story arc on a small scale.

Though don't believe that short stories are easier

(I've been writing short stories the last few years, and I'm sort of relieved to have a novel to play in now!)

icerose · Feb 7, 2008

Right not easier but perhaps more conquerable

Neon · Feb 7, 2008

Thanks for the replies again.

Icerose- i've actually done chapter outlines, not for the whole book because im not sure if the storyline will change but i've done the first ten.
I think i sort of give up previously because i wasn't really into what i was writing myself, so i think i found it really hard to ''sell'' it to somebody else, if that makes any sense.
I have a little more faith in myself this time because i feel strongly about what im writing and i've partly been through it myself- hopefully this time i'll make it to the end!

Another question (sorry!)- What is the difference between a short story and a novel, word count wise.?

icerose · Feb 7, 2008

A short story can be anywhere from 1 word to like 20k words. A novella is like 30k-50k A novel is about 70k-100k and up. Correct me if I'm wrong anyone.

Also don't think that just because you really believe in this writing that you won't have hard spots or spots you'll get bogged down in, or spots you'll want to quit and throw it all away.

Make a pact with yourself that you'll finish this time and keep it. Trust me, you'll need it. Daily minimum page goals can help too. Doesn't matter what gets on paper, just makes sure it's happening.

Shweta · Feb 7, 2008

I think a short story is up to 10K, and 10-20K is a novelette. But I also think it depends on your genre and on the particular publishers.

ishtar'sgate · Feb 7, 2008

Neon said:
I tend to write alot of dialogue and im not sure if thats a bad thing or not, i just feel like you can learn alot about characters through what they say and how they say it- am i wrong and should i be adding in more narrator description?
I am currently writing with a plan, i know what i want to write and what chapter it will be in. Will that give my story too much of a structured feel?
Also- from reading other posts i see a lot of you have attended creative writing courses- i havent, am i doomed?
Thanks!

I love dialogue. It's my favourite part of writing. But dialogue can't happen in a vacuum, you need some description so include as much or as little as you think is necessary. I don't know if you need to add MORE because I don't know how much you've currently included. If you post a bit on the forum and ask that question specifically, you'll probably get the feedback you're looking for.
Lots of people outline their work and know exactly what's going to happen in each chapter. If you like structure by all means use it. I'm not made that way and tend to keep my plan in my head and let my characters go where they want, within reason.
I don't think you're doomed if you don't attend a creative writing course but they're a lot of fun and tend to stimulate one's creative juices so if you're having trouble completing something, a creative writing class could be just the thing you need.
Linnea

Judg · Feb 7, 2008

icerose said:
Make a pact with yourself that you'll finish this time and keep it. Trust me, you'll need it. Daily minimum page goals can help too. Doesn't matter what gets on paper, just makes sure it's happening.

Absolutely. I made a pact with myself this time and advertised it. I told all kinds of people that I was going to finish a novel, make it the best it could be and make every serious effort to sell it. I'm on the second part now.

Matera the Mad · Feb 7, 2008

I never took a creative writing course in my life. Sort of taught one though...

Get to that last chapter just once, and your life begins

Go! Go! Go!

wayndom · Feb 7, 2008

I've read that there's such a thing as too much dialog, but I've never figured out exactly how anyone decides how much is too much. Nabokov once said something like, "Novelists who write more than three or four lines of dialog at a time are lazy, and I won't read them." So I guess he'll never read any of my work, boo-hoo...

If you're really that into dialog, you might want to look into writing screenplays (or stage plays). I've never heard anyone complain that a play had "too much dialog."

Newb.

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