Gritty fantasy

Judg · Feb 6, 2008

My critique group pointed out, very rightly, that my world was coming across too idyllic.

Guilty as charged. I've obviously read Tolkien too many times. All these idyllic little societies threatened by the Big Dark Shadow. (No, I'm not knocking Tolkien. I love LOTR.) Problem is, mine isn't supposed to be so nice. So I'm busy rewriting the offending chapter, which is probably the worst one. But I'm not a gritty person. I don't have a gritty imagination.

I need to read a gritty fantasy or two, preferably not modern urban, because my world is not modern. More like late medieval in technology, Renaissance in mentality. Roughly.

Got any gritty worlds to recommend to me?

My-Immortal · Feb 6, 2008

I just finished reading "Legend" by David Gemmell - fairly gritty at times.

I've read some of Glen Cook's Black Company - gritty.

Good luck with your writing.

Albedo · Feb 6, 2008

China Miéville elevates grit to an artform in his first Bas-Lag novel, Perdido Street Station. It's urban, but not modern urban. It's more an amalgam of Victorian London, Mediaeval Paris and Ancient Rome, with steampunk-level technology and an otherworldly level of urban grime. Miéville clearly loves big cities and according to interviews is cynical about Tolkeinesque nostalgia for a bucolic past, noting that the past was often a very gritty place. He may be who you are looking for.

TheIT · Feb 6, 2008

Lois McMaster Bujold's Curse of Chalion and Paladin of Souls come to mind.

Oddsocks · Feb 6, 2008

Does it absolutely have to be gritty? It's possible, I think, to have not-nice without gritty.

I'm not a gritty person either, and my worlds tend toward niceness as well, but there is nastiness there without it being all that gritty. As a kid, there are bad guys in cartoons that it's perfectly possible to fear (as a kid, anyway), though these were never gritty evils. It may be a more simplistic take on evil, though, or at least a more abstract one.

I might just be biased, though. I hate gritty - to me, it sours the whole story and I don't feel like I want to keep reading. This is why I think it's possible to have not-niceness with having grittiness - because I love many fantasies, and fantasy almost always has not-niceness of some form in it, and yet when I find a fantasy gritty, I'm usually not interested.

Maybe I have an odd definition of grit, though. As for recommendations, I haven't read much of George R. R. Martin, but I found what I did read very much horribly gritty.

Smiling Ted · Feb 6, 2008

Try reading Shakespeare of London by Marchette Chute.
A great evocation of Elizabethan London - nice 'n' gritty.

Aristophanes · Feb 7, 2008

since it has a medieval/renaissance setting, perhaps you'll want to include how unsanitary it was back then. I mean, they didn't have proper sewage, or flushing toilets, or showers. There was the plague. They didn't have soap. Everyone probably had grit underneath their fingernails; now that's gritty.

Dragon-lady · Feb 7, 2008

Actually even in the middle ages, people weren't always dirty. They did indeed have soap. Soapmaking goes back as far as 2000BC.

But as for gritty, what one finds gritty might vary. I personally find GRR Martin gritty--but that's a matter of opinion.

Shweta · Feb 7, 2008

Perhaps Tim Powers? Try The Drawing of the Dark for medieval fantasy, though it's an early book, and not his best by a long shot.

Steve Brust's Jhereg and sequels. The first book is sort of light-adventure, but has a lot of grit to it. The later books get... pushing too dark for me.

If you're willing to try YA, Jonathon Stroud's Bartimaeus trilogy manages it quite beautifully, while never quite losing the light touch. Bit more modern than you want, but might give you ideas.

And my husband says, Barbara Hambly's Dragonsbane.

ETA: And Ellen Kushner's Swordspoint, and Scott Lynch's, The Lies of Locke Lamora. Of course (smacks forehead)

If you want non-idyllic without grit, you might try John M Ford's The Dragon Waiting. Definitely not LOTR there, but I wouldn't call it gritty.

zornhau · Feb 7, 2008

Mary Gentle "Ash"

It about covers all bases. Also George RR Martin "Song of Ice and Fire"

Paichka · Feb 7, 2008

(All of those books are amazing.)

How are we defining gritty? Is "gritty" realism? Or is it more hyper-real, so the bad is worse and even the good is not so great? That's George RR Martin to a T -- even his good guys have really rotten traits. Everything is death and vileness underneath a pretty exterior. Same with China Mieville. I think that might be a little darker than the OP is looking for, even though they're some of my favorite reads.

Judg, have you tried lookin at things like the Medieval Sourcebook or other primary source documents for ideas? Non-idyllic doesn't necessarily have to mean squalor and filth and disease all the time, or rape and violence. You don't have to wallow in it. We're not talking Pillars of the Earth, here, right? Just, farm animals and a lack of indoor plumbing, or disease, or more common death from childbirth. That doesn't even have to be the primary focus -- just throw out a comment about the leper colony down the street, and that might make things seem much less idyllic in your world.

Straka · Feb 7, 2008

I suppose my Fantasy is a little gritty compared to Wheel in Time series. One aspect you might want to look at is having "Good" characters do immoral things. What is Aragorn slept with a prostitute because he was lonely? It always surprised me that some of the characters in the Wheel in Time series didn’t spend more time chasing women (granted I’m only on the 4th book) but that lends a different feel to the world.

Like Paichka says it doesn't have to be filthly, to be gritty. What about other taboo acts people do? Murder, blackmail, rape, molestation, bribery, drunkness, incest…

For a gritty fantasy manga I'd say look at Berserk

Dragon-lady · Feb 7, 2008

The WoT women annoyed me just past bearing--spent all of their time looking dreamily at what's his name and tugging on their braids. They could have used a big hint of grit in my book.

I'm not actually quite sure what it is meant by gritty, but I would say maybe Song of Fire and Ice. I like Martin (most of the time--I don't think his children are child-like even for the middle ages but even Martin isn't perfect. LOL) Or maybe the OP just meant grubby. And that's easy to do as someone mentioned. Just talk about them being dirty and needing a bath when they finally get to town and a funeral procession for the woman and baby that died two days after childbirth.

Alexandra Little · Feb 7, 2008

Dragon-lady said:
The WoT women annoyed me just past bearing--spent all of their time looking dreamily at what's his name and tugging on their braids. They could have used a big hint of grit in my book.

Didn't one of the women get spanked in the WoT? I remember something like that and I threw the book across the room.

As for the point of this thread...Terrier by Tamora Pierce (YA fantasy) does a good job of grit (imo).

Sarpedon · Feb 7, 2008

Were there any women in WoT that DIDN'T get spanked?

Ravenlocks · Feb 7, 2008

People keep bringing up George R. R. Martin as gritty. Every time I try to read him I get stuck in Chapter One where each of the kids ends up with a direwolf. I just can't get past the fact that the bastard kid gets one too. It seems too unbelievably rosy to me. Where does the grit come in?

Straka said:
Like Paichka says it doesn't have to be filthly, to be gritty. What about other taboo acts people do? Murder, blackmail, rape, molestation, bribery, drunkness, incest…

Are these what constitute grit? Cuz, uh, my WIP has pretty much all of them except maybe drunkenness (although the incest is only rumored but doesn't actually occur).

Judg · Feb 7, 2008

Thanks a lot, you guys. That should keep me busy for a while. I have read the Bartimeaus trilogy and I should perhaps have another look at it, because what I'm looking for is social tension more than anything else. I will have some urban settings, so good old fashioned city grime could be worked in a bit to "de-prettify" things. The chapter in question takes place in a village though, one that is rather bucolic and peaceful. But I've got to work in a sense of a growing (not yet critical) social dysfunction.

You know, just explaining this "out loud" helps quite a bit. I've been banging away at the rewrite today and I think I've improved the chapter a lot. Still, I'd like to do some reading before I get into heavy-duty revisions of the whole MS, and I've now got a nice list to take to the library. Thanks to everyone.

Shweta · Feb 7, 2008

Hm. Might not be what you want, but Patricia Brigg's Raven duology has some interesting social tension in a village, especially in book 1. It's this mixture of bucolic and tense.

Um, I know there's another book that... oh. The Moorchild.

Dragon-lady · Feb 7, 2008

Ravenlocks said:
People keep bringing up George R. R. Martin as gritty. Every time I try to read him I get stuck in Chapter One where each of the kids ends up with a direwolf. I just can't get past the fact that the bastard kid gets one too. It seems too unbelievably rosy to me. Where does the grit come in?

Are these what constitute grit? Cuz, uh, my WIP has pretty much all of them except maybe drunkenness (although the incest is only rumored but doesn't actually occur).

If you haven't read past Chapter one, then you wouldn't know would you? You stop reading because the bastard gets a direwolf? *shrugs*

Let's see that'r right after his father beheads an outlaw, right?

Read it and you'll find out.

As far as bucolic, it's over-rated as pretty. It tends to involve a lot of dirty work such as mucking out stalls, a lot of manure, sweaty field hands, as well as no indoor plumbing or running water except in a river. People are frequently not any too open or friendly to outsiders as well.

geardrops · Feb 7, 2008

Grit can also come across in the words you use. Terser, shorter sentences, less flowery prose, words with hard sounds: they will help get that point of grit across without having to go into exceptional detail.

It's just sort of how we're used to seeing things. You see a movie with a lot of bright, shiny colors, you don't expect it to be hard-boiled. You see candlelight, soft focus, and velvet draperies, you're probably not expecting the new Dora the Explorer movie.

Am I clear? I don't know. I hope I'm explaining this right.

Judg · Feb 7, 2008

Yes, you're explaining it right. Well, I understand it, so you must be.

You're right, word choice can have a powerful subliminal effect. I'm not sure my skills are up to that, but I'll try to keep that in mind. Practicing writing poetry would probably be the best exercise for that.

Shweta, you are the most incredible fantasy encyclopedia I have ever seen. Have you read every work of fantasy ever published? It seems whenever there's a "What should I read" thread, you have a zillion suggestions...

Death Wizard · Feb 7, 2008

Judg, you gotta go for George R.R. Martin for nonmagical grit and Steven Erikson for magical grit.

mscelina · Feb 7, 2008

If you ever wanted gritty realism that slowly usurps a fantasy world, you might try The Reckoning of Asphodel. I think the author's blog is called Elf-Killing and Other Hobbies or something like that.

Straka · Feb 7, 2008

Ravenlocks said:
Are these what constitute grit? Cuz, uh, my WIP has pretty much all of them except maybe drunkenness (although the incest is only rumored but doesn't actually occur).

I just wanted to put it out there as another way to look at grit. Sometimes good people can do "bad" things and that can it interesting.

Like this one night in college... well nevermind.

badducky · Feb 7, 2008

Doesn't mine count as gritty, Janet?

I know my apartment does.

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