Fuel storage in underground military installations.

Delarege said:

A few questions:

Given a large underground installation (Army, SW United States) that is cut off from the rest of the world:

Would their fuel tanks be deep underground? How much fuel might they store (gallons)? How long could they power a generator (assuming it would power all critical usages for the entire base)? Would there be tanker trucks kept in the base that could move the fuel, and would those be stored full or empty?

Currently, what sort of vehicle would be used to send two men out on a non-hostile scouting mission? The success of the mission rests mostly on the fuel consumption. The farther they can go, the better the intel. Given a basic flat desert terrain without roads, how long would their fuel last? Would it be routine to take a spare can of fuel? What would be its capacity?

How many truck size entrances would a large base have?

What do they call an area underground where they would keep the vehicles? Would it look similar to a parking garage with lines painted and arrows marking travel lanes? Is this area only for military vehicles or might there be private vehicles?

Would it be unusual to find aircraft beneath the surface in an underground army base? Would it be unusual NOT to find aircraft beneath the surface in an underground army base?


WIP moving ahead slowly. Thanks.

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Lots of questions!!!

Here are a two links that will give you some help. Note Fort Hood is the largest US Army base in the US, the links - the first provides details (way down in the text of an audit report) of their above and underground fuel storage capacity. The next link is a brief on Ft Hood itself.

http://stinet.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA383510&Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Hood

Have fun...


added: On the question of storage of fuel trucks I believe, they have to be full. An "empty" tanker is full of fumes, therefore more likely to ignition from static electricity, etc.

Delarege said:

Would their fuel tanks be deep underground? How much fuel might they store (gallons)? How long could they power a generator (assuming it would power all critical usages for the entire base)? Would there be tanker trucks kept in the base that could move the fuel, and would those be stored full or empty?

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Toy gave a good link here. As to generator question, how much fuel does the generator use? That's a separate question on generator life. Trucks would be kept on the base. They'd be empty. Trucks usually go get the fuel, and then take it to whatever needs the fuel. They do this for safety reasons.
Also, if you're talking about aviation or jet fuel JP-4 or JP-8), remember that it's not all the flammable or combustable. The joke is that you can toss a match on top of a can of it and nothing happens. And that joke is true. JP-4 and JP-8 are kerosene based. The people who work fuels smell all the time. Their clothes smell. Everything they touch or sit in smells. Everything in the vicinity smells. It's good texture stuff for your pages.

Delarege said:

Currently, what sort of vehicle would be used to send two men out on a non-hostile scouting mission? The success of the mission rests mostly on the fuel consumption. The farther they can go, the better the intel. Given a basic flat desert terrain without roads, how long would their fuel last? Would it be routine to take a spare can of fuel? What would be its capacity?

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A humvee. Depending on the enviroment, it would have a .50 caliber machine gun that would fire NATO ammunition. And it's loud. I don't know the milage of a military hummer, but I do recall it's not that good. Oh. And military hummers break all ... the ... time. On the range, I'd guess between 200-250 miles.

Delarege said:

How many truck size entrances would a large base have?

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For security purposes, no more than two. Less access is easier to control and the commander wouldn't need to use up valuable security forces to staff unneeded entrances.

Delarege said:

What do they call an area underground where they would keep the vehicles?

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Motor pool.

Delarege said:

Would it look similar to a parking garage with lines painted and arrows marking travel lanes?

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You bet, and each parking spot is also a spot where it can be repaired, so picture plenty of toolboxes and grease around as well as mechanics.

Delarege said:

Is this area only for military vehicles or might there be private vehicles?

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Military vehicles only.

Delarege said:

Would it be unusual to find aircraft beneath the surface in an underground army base?

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Not helicopters. Unless the DOD were hiding them for some reason, or they were purposed for that base, yes, that would be unusual. We used to hear talks about stashing B-52s and such in the sand when the SALT-II satellites would fly over head. That didn't actually happen. Everything just went to the bone yard in Arizona where it is reusable.

Delarege said:

Would it be unusual NOT to find aircraft beneath the surface in an underground army base?

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Most underground military bases are primarily used as back-up "command posts" for "when the bomb goes off." Similarly, the US has flying and sea assets that do the same thing. For practical reasons, having a large base underground isn't effective or useful.

Delarege said:

Dang. I knew that. Does retirement kill brain cells?

Is there a name for those canvas covered trucks?

Do I get from this that I might find a helicopter but not an airplane? For my purpose I want no flying machines on base.

What is DOD?

Thanks to you both.

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I'm retired, so I know the situation with brain cells...

1 - The truck looks like a standard U.S. Army 6 x 6, the military having about a thousand different "M" numbers for the same truck depending on its specific use; I won't even venture a guess on the model number.

2 - On the no flying machines, that is a tough one. Helicopters on a US Army base is a certainty; if it is a medium to large base you will also have some fixed wing aircraft (Military utility - commercial Beech type, etc.)

3 - DOD = Department of Defense.

In the Air Force, we referred to that truck as a "deuce and a half", and sometimes as a "six-by". I suppose they are now obsolete, but I'd bet National Guard units still have a bunch of them around.

http://www.militaryfactory.com/armor/detail.asp?armor_id=62

M35A2 6X6 2.5 ton truck, cargo with(or without) winch.

Diesel powered, 5 forward and 1 reverse gear, a high and low drive (Low only engaged in first or second gear). Will carry two comfortably in the front with gear and ten in the back using the jump seats. About 250 miles range with fuel, depending on load. Reasonably all-terrain, however they can get bogged down in sand or mud if you aren't careful.

Definitely want a ground guide if you're trying to back one up (usually the TC's job).

Haven't driven one in about 13 years, but I'm not likely to forget it anytime soon. If you gave me enough time, I could probably remember the TM for it.

Del,

For information on massive underground installations, you may find more looking into civilian sites (like the wampum storage facility (where they filmed Day of the Dead)) rather than military.

Just a thought.

Delarege said:

Does retirement kill brain cells?

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I've heard it grows them

Delarege said:

Sure it is a relative question but wouldn’t they have some expectation on how long they would have power if cut off from the grid? Days? Weeks?

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I'd think days, not more than about two weeks. Again, depends on the amount of fuel plus the kind of generator. A place like the mountain complex at NORAD has its own capacity to generate electricity. So, if you're talking on that scale, perhaps months. Just a ballpark (I did a story on NORAD in 2000), but I think three to six months isn't out of the question for a facility like NORAD.

Delarege said:

That mileage works. Am I correct in thinking that the army limits vehicle speed to 45 mph?

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I believe that's been nixed. Convoy duties in Iraq require vehicles to be able to move past blockades of any kind or push though them. And they don't stop. Friends have said they've gone 85 mph nonstop for about 90 minutes in Humvees and the Deuce-and-a-half you pictured above.

Delarege said:

Do I get from this that I might find a helicopter but not an airplane? For my purpose I want no flying machines on base.

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Again, if Army, then mostly helicopters or (after thinking) something called an OA-10 (you can google that; it does forward air observation). Army also flies a C-27, a small two engine cargo plane. Finally, if it's set in the now, a preponderance of unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) small to large.

Delarege said:

I have to move a thousand people from sothern callifornia to Montana without roads. Mostly, it will be a march but they would have vehicles, the tanker trucks and such. This is why the fuel is important.

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The Army would task Air Force cargo planes, a C-17 or a C-5, to move those soldiers and equipment. Soldiers and equipment would be mixed on the flights.

Fact sheets on both aircraft: C-5 and C-17.

Given the number of soldiers and equipment and the the number of times I've flown on both, I'd say your looking at three or four C-17s or two or three C-5s (the passenger configuration is different and allows more).

Delarege said:

Here is a diagram I found that claims the existence of thousands of miles of tunnels. While I really hope the military hasn’t gophered up the subterranean U.S. it makes for interesting conversation. But for the story, these tunnels would pretty much destroy my plot. I’m hoping they are as fake as they look.

I particularly like the one going into Mexico. That could explain a lot. “Somebody plug that leak!”

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I think you can safetly discount the above map as rubbish...My favorite is the tunnel to Catalina Island!

Delarege said:

What? No tire pressure, Richard? I'd love to own one of these, by the way.

This truck only needs to set in the corner of the motor pool. It is only cover for a crime.

What would the army use to move men if these are obsolete? Does everybody get a Hummer when they sign up? (kidding)

I have to move a thousand people from sothern callifornia to Montana without roads. Mostly, it will be a march but they would have vehicles, the tanker trucks and such. This is why the fuel is important.

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This sounds very familiar...there was a movie some years back that had this same situation, except US wide. I'll think of the name in a bit...

Got it!

Deep Impact -1998

http://movies.yahoo.com/movie/1800021188/details

Delarege said:

So I can throw out the map marking the alien landing sites too?

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Dems is for real...that's the only thing worth keeping...

Delarege said:

I hate to be a pest, Jason, (actually it is what I thrive at) but the primary point is what would be stored subterranean? Anything on the surface would be useless. The only survivors are those that were underground. The only supplies they can use are what was underground.

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Ah. Then the C-27s are probably your best bet for aerial stuff. The OA-10s, too.

Delarege said:

Yes, there are several underground private facilities. I have found an underground city in Canada, an underground pharmaceutical research center (250 feet down), an underground library and many other places. Most will be in the story, as well as tunnels, subways, and even a kid growing pot in a cave.

Unfortunately for me, I couldn't see the story playing out without military involvement. I wish I knew more about the military. This would be a lot easier to write. Wampum looks worthy of mention. . Nearly anything underground might support survivors. Thanks.

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That reminds me.

OK, this may be a bigger installation than you were looking for... and it's in the UK. But Turnstile is decommisioned, so a lot of information about it is now open source.
That may make getting information on this kind of facility rather easier than convincing the military to unclench.

Delarege said:

What? No tire pressure, Richard? I'd love to own one of these, by the way.

This truck only needs to set in the corner of the motor pool. It is only cover for a crime.

What would the army use to move men if these are obsolete? Does everybody get a Hummer when they sign up? (kidding)

I have to move a thousand people from sothern callifornia to Montana without roads. Mostly, it will be a march but they would have vehicles, the tanker trucks and such. This is why the fuel is important.

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Nope, don't remember the tire pressure. Probalby about 45psi but that's what the dash 10 (the technical manual for operator level maintenance) is for.

The 2.5 ton truck was decommissioned in the 101st after Desert Storm and we received 5 ton trucks instead. Personally, I like the deuce because it was more maneuverable, but the one I had was definitely refurbished. When we were doing some maintenance on it, I noted the name plate on the inside was on top of something else. We took it apart and found the original Kaiser-Willeys plate beneath it (the original WWII jeeps were made by Willeys). I guessed my truck was built in the mid-50s and had just been upgraded/repaired ever since.

Cargo vehicles when I got out were the 5 ton and the HMMT which was a huge vehicle.

Well, it depends on your unit, but in the MI unit I was in, only the officers were assigned Hummers. The rest of us either rode in the trucks (101st) or in tracks (3rd ACR).

If you're moving large numbers of people, there are several options. If it's severe enough (and it sounds like it would be), the military would have no problem commandeering civilian vehicles (busses, semi-trailers, etc.) to move those kinds of masses of people to safety. You REALLY don't want to ride on a wooden jump seat, overland, for thousands of miles.

If you're going overland, top end speed is pretty low. Only tracks and specially designed vehicles - FAAVs for one (the army's own dune buggies mounting either TOW missiles or .50 cal. machineguns) - can maintain any real speed overland. Regular trucks willl be lucky to do 30mph off-road and not shake their cargo or passengers to death.

Richard White said:

If you're moving large numbers of people, there are several options. If it's severe enough (and it sounds like it would be), the military would have no problem commandeering civilian vehicles (busses, semi-trailers, etc.) to move those kinds of masses of people to safety. You REALLY don't want to ride on a wooden jump seat, overland, for thousands of miles.

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Another easy write in: your motor pool could have several 45-pax buses; the military uses these motorcoaches to move people around all the time and there are bound to be a few available. Off the top of my head, to move that many troops, you'd need -- what -- 40? So, maybe no that many available, but you could move the lot as a "rag tag fugitive fleet" in the buses, the few airplanes and hummers and so on.

Heck, during Desert Storm, we moved troops into Iraq on Saudi double-decker busses because some of the infantry units there didn't have enough organic transportation assigned to them. (think paratroopers on foot in the desert . . . not a good combination).