Chapter Zero

Higgins · Feb 4, 2008

Apparenlty my framing chapters have a certain something...some beta readers want more framing. Framing is of course not exactly back story and the way I do it it tends to put the MC forward as a personage that has an odd set of relations to various standard conventional sets of evaluations: Good and bad in the Cold War, tedious and cool in academic terms, etc.

But this framing of frames in effect makes your next frame out into a chapter Zero...Good and bad in terms of adding chapters to the front of the story, tedious or cool in terms of literary devices...etc.

Plot Device · Feb 4, 2008

Framing??

Is that (maybe) kind of like .... black and white Kansas, then Technicolor Oz, and then back to black and white Kansas again? Am I right? So the two instances of black and white at the front and then the back ends of that film are the "frames" of that story, right?

Are you saying your frames also have frames? Double frames? Or (as a professional framer I know calls it) double-mattes?

Thats sounds like a kind of a no-no to me. Almost as ridiculous as a movie that has a flashback INSIDE of another flashback (something they did incessantly in Ghosts of Mars).

Higgins · Feb 4, 2008

Plot Device said:
Framing??

Is that (maybe) kind of like .... black and white Kansas, then Technicolor Oz, and then back to black and white Kansas again? Am I right? So the two instances of black and white at the front and then the back ends of that film are the "frames" of that story, right?

Are you saying your frames also have frames? Double frames? Or (as a professional framer I know calls it) double-mattes?

Thats sounds like a kind of a no-no to me. Almost as ridiculous as a movie that has a flashback INSIDE of another flashback (something they did incessantly in Ghosts of Mars).

It's tricky (flashbacks inside of flashbacks)...but they are sometimes mysteriously effective such as in The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance
where the true story is only seen inside a flashback inside a flashback.

Yeah...double framing seems a bit much.

ChaosTitan · Feb 5, 2008

Movies aren't good examples. Have you ever read a successful double-frame in a novel?

Dawnstorm · Feb 6, 2008

ChaosTitan said:
Movies aren't good examples. Have you ever read a successful double-frame in a novel?

Frankenstein:

1. Arctic explorer writes to his sister (frame)

2. Victor tells story to Arctic Explorer (story proper)

3. Monster tells story to Victor (the parts that don't include Victor)

It's usually not a problem, since people don't tend to think of the frame as they read the story that's being told in the frame.

PinkUnicorn · Feb 6, 2008

your description reminds me of Ian Flemmings' Octopussy, which was by far the worst book I ever read. It was flashbacks inside of flashbacks, and you couldn't tell which end of the book was the beginning and which was the end... it was just jumping about all over the place and really getting nowhere as a result.

Higgins · Feb 6, 2008

ChaosTitan said:
Movies aren't good examples. Have you ever read a successful double-frame in a novel?

As I remember it there is a double frame in the amazingly effective opening chapters of Wurthering Heights (the traveler's story of witnessing Kathy's Ghost...one of the best chunks of narrative of all time)...tricky but not impossible.

Of course maybe you have to be a Bronte to do it. I vaguely recall some weird Bronte-esque double-framing in Shirley ... And of course one often finds stories where a story is told in a letter (which is of course a story in a letter in a story in a book).

ChaosTitan · Feb 6, 2008

Dawnstorm said:
Frankenstein:

Higgins said:
As I remember it there is a double frame in the amazingly effective opening chapters of Wurthering Heights

Excellent, classic examples.

Let me rephrase, though, since we're writing in the twenty-first century. Any examples of books published in the last thirty years? I only ask for clarification, not because I don't think the technique will work. I just haven't seen it done in a modern novel, and I'm curious to know if anyone has.

mscelina · Feb 6, 2008

Not in the last thirty years that I can recollect but I think du Maurier's Rebecca might be a good example--Last night I dreamed I was at Manderley again. Let me think...I'll come up with one.

Higgins · Feb 6, 2008

ChaosTitan said:
Excellent, classic examples.

Let me rephrase, though, since we're writing in the twenty-first century. Any examples of books published in the last thirty years? I only ask for clarification, not because I don't think the technique will work. I just haven't seen it done in a modern novel, and I'm curious to know if anyone has.

Iain Banks in various books since about 1990 (eg Use of Weapons and Feersum Injun) uses very elaborate framing devices. In Use of Weapons the frame is so elaborate that it turns out the inner tale is not told by the character that you assume is telling it.

My frames are much simpler.

Chapter Zero

Higgins

Plot Device

A woman said to write like a man.

Higgins

ChaosTitan

Around

Dawnstorm

punny user title, here

PinkUnicorn

Tossing Elves in bed with Unicorns

Higgins

ChaosTitan

Around

mscelina

Teh doommobile, drivin' rite by you

Higgins