Help! Gender neutral pronouns/possessives required!

Broadswordbabe · Feb 1, 2008

I have a hermaphroditic character in the current wip and I'm trying to find a useable, non-jarring way of referring to them.

I have tried "hey" for "he/she" and "hir" for "his/her"; also they and their; "heshe" and their....so far I'm not entirely happy with any of them.

Anyone have an example of somewhere this has been done well, or is there now a standard in sf/fantasy that I've missed?

As always I apologise if this has been covered elsewhere.

Tsu Dho Nimh · Feb 1, 2008

shim for the pronoun and and shis for the possessive?

IceCreamEmpress · Feb 1, 2008

In my opinion, there is no good way of doing this, except to rewrite every sentence so that it doesn't require pronouns, which is insanely hard work.

This website summarizes the state of play around gender-neutral pronouns pretty well. There's also a Wikipedia article on the topic.

DeleyanLee · Feb 1, 2008

Many moons ago, I had a three-gendered race I wrote in a shared-universe APA: Males, females and jemales. I won't get into the biology of it ('cause it sucked--there's a reason I no longer try to write SF), but the pronouns ran: he/she/je and he/her/jer and his/hers/jers.

Just seemed to make sense to me and none of the other writers/readers ever had a problem understanding what I was saying.

If you want it, take it. I won't use it ever, promise.

Gray Rose · Feb 1, 2008

L.M.Bujold uses "it" for her hermaphrodites, spelling out what "it" refers to.

LeeFlower · Feb 1, 2008

Ursula K. LeGuin's The Left Hand Of Darkness faced this very problem. She ended up using the masculine to refer to the nongendered characters in the book, but apparently said later in an essay that she regretted it.

There's unfortunately no consensus anywhere--including the GLBT community, where non-gendered pronouns are necessary to accurately refer to some people. He-She-Ze(or Zie)/His-Hers-Zirs is probably the most common set, but the issue's been complicated by the (ridiculous, imo) belief that every nongendered person should have the right to choose their own pronouns.

Honestly, my inclination would be to just use They/Their. Yeah, it's plural. But you know what else is plural? You. The singular is actually Thee. They is becoming more and more acceptable as a nongendered singular as time passes, and people are already familiar with it. It's certainly more elegant than what's going on in the GLBT community.

geardrops · Feb 1, 2008

Grammar for Grasshoppers?

IceCreamEmpress · Feb 1, 2008

DeleyanLee said:
Many moons ago, I had a three-gendered race I wrote in a shared-universe APA: Males, females and jemales. I won't get into the biology of it ('cause it sucked--there's a reason I no longer try to write SF), but the pronouns ran: he/she/je and he/her/jer and his/hers/jers.

Just seemed to make sense to me and none of the other writers/readers ever had a problem understanding what I was saying.

If you want it, take it. I won't use it ever, promise.

I like that!

Apart from that, I think "he/she/e", "him/her/em", "his/her/er", "his/hers/ers" is the best solution I've seen.

Ravenlocks · Feb 1, 2008

Linguistically pronouns are a closed set; new ones don't get added. If English nouns had gender, you could just use whichever pronoun applied, but... Personally I'd probably go with "it" or "they," although I might go with "he" depending on how non-gender they are, and I think I read a book once with aliens who could switch gender at will, and they were all called "she," so you ended up with sentences like, "She has fathered..."

Traditionally "he" was the default when gender was unknown, but of course it's charged now.

I have a feeling I've been very unhelpful.

veinglory · Feb 1, 2008

Bujold also used some weird word. I rhink it was xi, xis, somwthing like that as a 'he/his' like construction. In one other book the character was treated as male by others and he/his was used by the narrator.

Dragon-lady · Feb 1, 2008

Someone (Eric Flint I think but I won't swear to it) wrote a world where what were in fact the females (because they produced eggs) were the larger and more "masculine seeming" and were always referred to as "he" even though they weren't. The males actually carried the young. It gave me a headache.

Because of our total lack of non-gender pronouns this is a very difficult situation to get around. If they are androgenous, I would very much avoid referring to them as he. If nothing else, it's inaccurate, (as in the series I mentioned) confusing and headache producing.

I would probably make up a set of pronouns--making up things is what we do after all.

small axe · Feb 1, 2008

Well, a 'hermaphrodite' wouldn't be gender 'neutral' ...

I like veinglory's idea of "xi,xis" because it's simply a new designation, you're not struggling to combine two together.

If you wanted it to be "xy, xys" that would be a play on the x and y sex chromosomes (I don't know the genetics of hermaphrodites, are they genetically male or female, x or y or a combination? Can you have some hermaphrodites who are genetically XX and others XY? I dunno, you undoubtedly do)

Dragon-lady · Feb 1, 2008

The definition of hemaphroditism is: one having both male and female sexual characteristics and organs so I don't follow your point. I can't see how anything but gender neutral would work. Admittedly she contains the word he--so I suppose in a way she would work, but it would also imply that the character is female and since it isn't that wouldn't be right. It isn't an "it" since it has both genders. I don't see anything but to invent pronouns.

Judg · Feb 1, 2008

Wikipedia has an entire table of different options. See if there are any that grab you.

Ziljon · Feb 1, 2008

I always thinks of hermaphrodites as female.

Dragon-lady · Feb 1, 2008

Interesting Wikipedia article, Judg. I found this very interesting:

"Since at least the 15th century 'they', 'them' and 'their' have also been used as singular pronouns. This is called the singular 'they'."

I usually double-check info from Wikipedia for accuracy, but that really caught my eye.

Judg · Feb 1, 2008

Yup, always wise to double-check them, but that has the ring of truth to it. Of course, it was probably never considered correct, but we've all done it. Just like since the disappearance of thou/thee, many dialects (perhaps all) have evolved a plural you form to keep the distinction alive. Youse, y'all, you guys, whatever... It's filling a hole that is felt. We feel the need for a gender-neutral pronoun, so we cobble one together with the materials at hand. They/them is gender neutral so we pretend it's singular. "One" is inadequate to the task for various reasons.

Ravenlocks · Feb 1, 2008

As I understand it (which could be incorrectly), hermaphrodites can have either XY or XX chromosomes. Why not use the appropriate gender pronoun based on which set of chromosomes each particular one has?

Granted, of course, that the culture is at a level to know about things like that.

Ravenlocks · Feb 1, 2008

Having now read the Wikipedia article, I like "a." It's historical, so it's better than something invented in modern times. "A put on a's hat and ran outside to meet me."

Oddsocks · Feb 1, 2008

I think they/them/their was actually used quite a lot prior to the prescription that male pronouns should be used in a gender-unknown context (i.e. 'if the reader chooses, he may...').

It's always sounded most natural to me.

They also appear to be coming back into fashion, I think. The themself construction is also developing and starting to gain acceptance as a result - so even though 'they' is plural, this shows that people can interpret it as singular.

Bartholomew · Feb 1, 2008

The word "they" actually has a strong history of being used to refer to singular objects in certain circumstances. But I think your best bet is to go with "He," or "She" depending on which gender your character leans closest towards.

Broadswordbabe · Feb 3, 2008

Wow. Lots of feedback here - thank you! I shall look at the Wiki article.

I'm mainly looking for something that will simply avoid jarring the reader while sounding gender-neutral. So I may well end up going with 'they/them/their' after all, as it sounds as though it has linguistic precedent. As to the x/y chromosome argument - I'm writing fantasy, not SF, so I'm aiming for the right feel rather than scientific accuracy <ducks in anticipation of well-aimed missiles from highly scientifically-accurate and well-informed fantasy writers...>

OK OK I admit it! I personally tend to write fantasy rather than SF partly because I'm a bit of a thickie where the sciences are concerned.

Quite a lot of a thickie, really. (Also I like swords a lot).

But that's a whole other thread, isn't it?

Thanks everyone for all the help!

Dragon-lady · Feb 3, 2008

Broadswordbabe said:
Wow. Lots of feedback here - thank you! I shall look at the Wiki article.

I'm mainly looking for something that will simply avoid jarring the reader while sounding gender-neutral. So I may well end up going with 'they/them/their' after all, as it sounds as though it has linguistic precedent. As to the x/y chromosome argument - I'm writing fantasy, not SF, so I'm aiming for the right feel rather than scientific accuracy <ducks in anticipation of well-aimed missiles from highly scientifically-accurate and well-informed fantasy writers...>

OK OK I admit it! I personally tend to write fantasy rather than SF partly because I'm a bit of a thickie where the sciences are concerned.

Quite a lot of a thickie, really. (Also I like swords a lot).

But that's a whole other thread, isn't it?

Thanks everyone for all the help!

I totally sympathize. I write fantasy partially because I like it better and partially because the science types come after you with hatchets if you get something wrong.

Maybe we fanatasists should start carrying shields for defense.

Mr Flibble · Feb 3, 2008

Broadswordbabe said:
OK OK I admit it! I personally tend to write fantasy rather than SF partly because I'm a bit of a thickie where the sciences are concerned.

Quite a lot of a thickie, really. (Also I like swords a lot).

But that's a whole other thread, isn't it?

I thought it was just me!!

Ravenlocks · Feb 3, 2008

Broadswordbabe said:
As to the x/y chromosome argument - I'm writing fantasy, not SF, so I'm aiming for the right feel rather than scientific accuracy <ducks in anticipation of well-aimed missiles from highly scientifically-accurate and well-informed fantasy writers...>

OK OK I admit it! I personally tend to write fantasy rather than SF partly because I'm a bit of a thickie where the sciences are concerned.

Quite a lot of a thickie, really. (Also I like swords a lot).

No missiles from me! That's part of the reason I write fantasy, too (and I like swords). The X/Y thing would really only work if people know what their chromosomes are, so in a fantasy with swords it probably wouldn't.

Wait, now I feel an idea coming on where they find out by magic... (it's mine, I claim it)!

Help! Gender neutral pronouns/possessives required!

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