Double trouble

KTC · Jan 27, 2008

I just came to the realization that I have to almost double up my word count. Not that I just came to this realization, really...I just decided to stop deluding myself. I am not sure how I'm going to do it. Has anyone ever had a manuscript that they've polished to a sharp point knowing it's way under the acceptable word count? I don't know why I put myself in these corners. I'm going to have to take the whole thing apart and re-evaluate to try to figure out where I can add. I am happy with the story's progression. Everything happens where I want it to happen. I can't picture adding all those words. It is clean now. Just complaining. Back to the drawing board, I guess. It's time for a HUGE rewrite. If you found yourself in this position, would you try to fill it in or realize that you wrote something in its entirety and it just isn't the right size and you just put it aside as an interesting experiment that went wrong?

SageFury · Jan 27, 2008

If I found myself in this situation I would probably add in reserve scenes I thought of before but decided to leave out for weird reasons... =)

David I · Jan 27, 2008

What sort of word count do you have right now?

I'm assuming you don't have an agent. If the present length is in the realm of remotely feasible and you think it's good as it stands, I'd be inclined to try to find representation rather than adding padding. If it really needs to be expanded, it would be nice to have an agent or editor suggest where it needs to be expanded

You obviously feel that anything additional would be "padding". That's not a good frame of mind for expanding a text!

a_sharp · Jan 27, 2008

Double? Not quite, Kev, but I've come close. What helped was to set it aside for a few weeks. That was hard, because I was hot and with it. But the gap allowed me a fresh look and I saw where I had taken shortcuts and missed opportunities for great dialogue, deeper characterization. That work is still awaiting submission for other reasons (current events caught up) but what materialized from it was about a third more length, which sat better with me. Good luck.

Danger Jane · Jan 27, 2008

Finished it, started something new, then started rewriting. The original extremely short project probably still won't break 30K...but this one will break 40K, and if I need to double the word count, I have another story I'm going to write anyway that I will weave through this one, because the two stories emphasize each others' themes.

Everything I write seems to be about 10K longer than the last. So if worst comes to worst, I write another novel that makes it around 50K, find my agent with that (assuming 40K won't do it and the two plots thing doesn't work out), and then pull out a couple more novel(la)s. There are short novels and novellas that are published and not only by small presses. More in MG and YA than adult fiction, of course, but it still happens.

Richard White · Jan 27, 2008

Geez, I wish I had those kinds of problems. I usually set out to write a good 100K story and wind up with a 140K first draft. My problem isn't expanding things, it's trimming stuff out to make it work.

SageFury · Jan 27, 2008

Richard White said:
Geez, I wish I had those kinds of problems. I usually set out to write a good 100K story and wind up with a 140K first draft. My problem isn't expanding things, it's trimming stuff out to make it work.

I seem to luck out and make them perfect lengths =)

I think it's because I spent the first three years developing my world before writing about it =)

Chasing the Horizon · Jan 27, 2008

I think every story has an 'ideal' length, and if you try to shorten or add to it so it fits the publishing industries guidelines you'll end up damaging the story. I did this with my first novel. The initial outline was bringing it in at 170k, so I made changes until it was down to 125k. Even though it ended up the right length for agents, the pacing was all over the place, so it wasn't good enough to get an agent. I've since rewritten it back to 160k, and the story is many times better for it.

Put your short book to the side and work on something else. Eventually you'll end up with a story that has an ideal length in the acceptable range. Once you're an established author, you can get work of virtually any length published. Stephen King has published Colorado Kid, which is less than 200 pages (maybe around 45k words), and The Stand (which I think is about 1,600 pages in the unedited version, or well over 400k words). Stephen King had a number of novels laying around that he wrote before Carrie which he later published after he was famous too (some of which were a lot better than Carrie, IMO).

KTC · Jan 28, 2008

David I said:
What sort of word count do you have right now?

I'm assuming you don't have an agent. If the present length is in the realm of remotely feasible and you think it's good as it stands, I'd be inclined to try to find representation rather than adding padding. If it really needs to be expanded, it would be nice to have an agent or editor suggest where it needs to be expanded

You obviously feel that anything additional would be "padding". That's not a good frame of mind for expanding a text!

Yes. Exactly. It's not a good frame of mind. But that's where I stand. I've been trying to think about what I could add. I've been considering adding full chapters throughout, etc. It's just that I also feel like I told the story. You know when you see something one way and it's impossible to envision it another way? That's where I am. I do feel like anything I add would be padding. Which is entirely a bad place to be when you also feel that you have to add double what you already have. That's a lot of padding.

KTC · Jan 28, 2008

Richard White said:
Geez, I wish I had those kinds of problems. I usually set out to write a good 100K story and wind up with a 140K first draft. My problem isn't expanding things, it's trimming stuff out to make it work.

I've heard others say this too, Richard. But I think it's one of those 'the grass is always greener on the other side' things. You know, when in fact it is brown on both sides. I've heard many a people saying they have too much. It's just as hard having too little...if you feel like you have a whole package. Both are difficult and both are positions a writer doesn't want to be in. I'll trade you for a few days...maybe do a Freaky Friday type thing?

KTC · Jan 28, 2008

Hope To The Horizon said:
I think every story has an 'ideal' length, and if you try to shorten or add to it so it fits the publishing industries guidelines you'll end up damaging the story. I did this with my first novel. The initial outline was bringing it in at 170k, so I made changes until it was down to 125k. Even though it ended up the right length for agents, the pacing was all over the place, so it wasn't good enough to get an agent. I've since rewritten it back to 160k, and the story is many times better for it.

Put your short book to the side and work on something else. Eventually you'll end up with a story that has an ideal length in the acceptable range. Once you're an established author, you can get work of virtually any length published. Stephen King has published Colorado Kid, which is less than 200 pages (maybe around 45k words), and The Stand (which I think is about 1,600 pages in the unedited version, or well over 400k words). Stephen King had a number of novels laying around that he wrote before Carrie which he later published after he was famous too (some of which were a lot better than Carrie, IMO).

Good advice. It has been put aside for months though. I've been waiting to hear back from a publisher...knowing that it would be rejected and knowing that word length would be one of the contributing causes of that rejection. It's hovering around 40K. I wrote it complete at about 25K...I can no longer remember...and I added to get it to 40K for the submission. Doing that was one of the hardest things I've ever done. I sort of compromised for that stretch...I can't see myself compromising for another stretch. I think you're right that every story has a length. I think I reached mine. I was all set to sit down and add chapters, but when I actually went to do it I came to a brick wall.

Sophia · Jan 28, 2008

KTC said:
If you found yourself in this position, would you try to fill it in or realize that you wrote something in its entirety and it just isn't the right size and you just put it aside as an interesting experiment that went wrong?

I think there would be two options. If the story feels right at the length it is, then perhaps it could be submitted to magazine markets as a novella rather than a novel. I know that in the SF genre, for example, novellas are a legitimate form and are published regularly, and they often have their own award category. You could search for agents that specify that they will consider novellas, but generally I think novellas are like short stories, in that an agent is not generally involved in the submission process.

I think a need to fill in is a good opportunity to make the novel richer and deeper. You could perhaps try giving the protagonist more plot layers in the form of additional problems they have to face. For each problem, you can think of a few scenes that set it up, bring it to its narrative climax like any other story arc, and then resolve it. You would need to then incorporate the new plot layers into the novel. I recommend Donald Maass' Writing the Breakout Novel Workbook for step-by-step suggestions for this, if you haven't tried it.

Best of luck with it!

Stew21 · Jan 28, 2008

Kevin, I wonder if there is another subplot lying in there somewhere you haven't tapped.
Or maybe a plot involving Seb as an adult that will benefit from the reflections of this plot.

Can you weave another story line in. That way you would have to change they things that happened to Seb in the storyline you currently have. Additions would be another story.

Just a thought.

dpaterso · Jan 28, 2008

Any possibility of writing a 40k sequel? Which could be spliced together with the first story to make a novel? Just call 'em Part I and Part II.

-Derek

KTC · Jan 28, 2008

Stew21 said:
Kevin, I wonder if there is another subplot lying in there somewhere you haven't tapped.
Or maybe a plot involving Seb as an adult that will benefit from the reflections of this plot.

Can you weave another story line in. That way you would have to change they things that happened to Seb in the storyline you currently have. Additions would be another story.

Just a thought.

Trish. Having read it, you might know where I stand. Or you may be thinking there are big holes where expansion could definitely help.

I had feedback forms from the 6 judges who chose it. Almost all of them said it was refreshing to have a novel with virtually all male characters that appealed to female readers. Almost all of them mentioned that specifically. It almost was a hinderance to me. I saw a scene in my head when Sebby is leaving the graveyard where he talks to the tombstone...a girl from school approaches, they start to talk and she is introduced into the novel and becomes another element. Then I hear what the judges said and I wonder if adding a female character would be wrong, or too obvious, or out of place. And I also see injecting more of the black woman who was hanging onto Sebby's dad at one point...making her hang around for more than that one scene...and then I think of what the judges said. All 6 of the judges were women too. I try to think of that...juxtapose it against everything I hear about women making up a large percentage of the reading public.

YES! I'm overthinking everyTHING.

Maybe you're right. About weaving in another story line. I just don't know what that story line is yet?

KTC · Jan 28, 2008

dpaterso said:
Any possibility of writing a 40k sequel? Which could be spliced together with the first story to make a novel? Just call 'em Part I and Part II.

-Derek

I like this idea, Derek. Thanks. I don't know how to put it into action at the moment, but I like it all the same.

Trish...what would you think of the Part II being AFTER the ending and going into their new lives together? I just don't see that as feasible as the ending is the kind of ending I like where the future is open. I wouldn't want to kill that future in the mind of the reader by showing it?

Finni · Jan 28, 2008

As an avid reader, KTC, I must say that it isn't the length that matters, its the substance. I did try to find another way to say that, I know how it sounds! However, it is truthful. I love to read just as much as I love to write. I would enjoy a tight novella more than I would enjoy a padded novel. If I care about the characters and am taken out of my day by a story thats all that matters as a reader.

If you feel this story is 'perfect' don't pad it, but if you think it is missing something other than word count then by all means write more.

KTC · Jan 28, 2008

That is great advice, Fin. I don't think it's 'perfect', but I do think it's complete. I just wonder if there is a market for novellas. I know I read them, but how easy is it to get one published? I should check who published the ones on my own shelf. Anybody out there know anyone interesting in novellas?

NeuroFizz · Jan 28, 2008

I'm going to go with the others here, Kevin. You may want to get lost in thought on this (start taking long showers or something), to see if you can come up with a sub-plot that could impact the entire story, even if it changes the overall trajectory of the plot. Sometimes a good sub-plot not only drives a sub-theme through the story, but turns up throughout the story so the added material isn't just dumped in one place. But, you have to make sure it becomes an integral part of the story, not just a by-the-way filler. This means (to me) it can't just add to characterization. It has to go much deeper than that. Sometimes a good subplot can add an interesting twist to a story, and sometimes it can change the entire flow. But, don't to anything until you think it through. You have a lot of time and effort invested in the story. Bounce some ideas off of your beta readers if you want to, but just let you mind go--push in the clutch and let it coast downhill.

CaroGirl · Jan 28, 2008

I'm in a similar position. Mine stands at almost 65K but is still too lean, according to the betas who've given me feedback. They want more. Just more.

Have you done all you can with your characters? How well does the reader know them right now? Can you add scenes (even flashbacks, which I think would work well with my understanding of you novel) that support the current plot and flesh out your characters? Can you put a few of them somewhere and just let them talk? You might be surprised at what they'd say.

Also, if you're at 40K, I think you can safely add a minimum of 20K to make it marketable (which is not necessarily double).

KTC · Jan 28, 2008

NeuroFizz said:
I'm going to go with the others here, Kevin. You may want to get lost in thought on this (start taking long showers or something), to see if you can come up with a sub-plot that could impact the entire story, even if it changes the overall trajectory of the plot. Sometimes a good sub-plot not only drives a sub-theme through the story, but turns up throughout the story so the added material isn't just dumped in one place. But, you have to make sure it becomes an integral part of the story, not just a by-the-way filler. This means (to me) it can't just add to characterization. It has to go much deeper than that. Sometimes a good subplot can add an interesting twist to a story, and sometimes it can change the entire flow. But, don't to anything until you think it through. You have a lot of time and effort invested in the story. Bounce some ideas off of your beta readers if you want to, but just let you mind go--push in the clutch and let it coast downhill.

Also great advice. Thanks Rich. I think what I'm afraid of is adding filler. I am going to have to go deeper than just adding a couple things here and there. I am going to need a weave that will effect the entire picture, not just add scenes. I'm going to think on that sub-plot. In the meantime, I think it's time to let Mr. Lightfoot know it's not quite ready for public viewing. (-;

NeuroFizz · Jan 28, 2008

Franny will enjoy the extra long walks, Kevin...

KTC · Jan 28, 2008

lol. Yes. She will.

And, Caro...that's a good point. I'm thinking double, but that's not necessarily true.

Time to take Franny to the woods...

Dawnstorm · Jan 28, 2008

As a reader, I'm pretty much where Finni is. So chances are I'd prefer the approach. However, I'm a bit out of the circulation. So I'm not much help on that front:

KTC said:
Anybody out there know anyone interesting in novellas?

However, I do think that some mags that don't publish novellas (because they're too long) might be interested in serialising a good one. (Type "serialis[z]ed novella" into google as a starting point, or for inspiration. Plenty of pages, but I'm lazy.)

If your target readership is women (a possibility), you might also look into special interest mags; not fiction markets per se, but they often run serialised stuff. (I've seen it done in TV programmes of all places!)

Just spouting ideas. I don't know your story, or how malleable it is to serialisation.

maestrowork · Jan 28, 2008

Kevin, if you think there's no more subplot to be added, and it is the way it should be, then I think you may want to accept that it's going to be a novella and not a novel.

Padding the word count just for the sake of making it a 80K novel is not going to work unless you can really dig for more truths in the story. If you write sparsely, you may be able to spruce up the prose and dialogue, character development, add more plot, etc. But if you think the writing is as sharp as it should be, and it's the story you want to tell, then really, I think it's fruitless to try to add another 20-40K to it just because. There's nothing wrong with a novella -- it just means you may have a harder time selling it. But IMHO, it's better to have a great novella than a so-so/padded novel.

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