Up a River in Non-Motorized Boat

[MMWyrm]

I've been searching for info about this and can find nothing that helps.

Besides sailing, how can you get a non-motorized, large (25-30 foot at least) boat or barge up a river that is flowing at a moderate rate?

[melaniehoo]

Maybe with one of those long poles, a la Huck Finn? Paddle wheels came to mind but that has a motor.

Or rent a tug boat?

[joetrain]

i think they used to poll large boats up the mississippi, a la huck finn, but on a much larger scale.

[JamieFord]

Lewis & Clark traveled thousands of miles going up-river. They used long poles and had members of the expedition walk along the shore pulling the boats. Then there was that whole portage around waterfalls thing...fun stuff!

[MMWyrm]

Hmm... so two guys (would they need more?) could pole a 30-foot loaded boat up a river? That might work.

A bit crazy, but I was thinking of them somehow pulling themselves up the river with ropes attached to something on shore (this is a fantasy story - no magic though), but that would just run the boat aground I guess.

Thanks for the ideas!

[jclarkdawe]

Don't forget oars.

For towing (used on a lot of canals), you use a longish rope to reduce the angle. Person on boat would use pole to keep pushing boat off from the shore. Problem is with the towpath. If there isn't one, it can be a problem.

Going upstream was a long, slow process, but a hell of a lot faster than going over land. Freight would be moved hundreds or thousands of miles this way.

If you live on the East Coast of the United States, you're probably within a day's drive to some of the former canals. It's only when you try dragging a wagon that you see how much better dragging or poling or rowing something upstream is.

On land, there are days when the mud would be so bad nothing moved. If you look at some of the records of the pioneers, you'll see that there were days when they could move and got a whopping mile during that day.

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe

[Pup]

A bit crazy, but I was thinking of them somehow pulling themselves up the river with ropes attached to something on shore (this is a fantasy story - no magic though), but that would just run the boat aground I guess.

That would be the canal boat model. The trick is to have a rudder which keeps the boat in the center of the chanel, even though the rope is actually pulling it slightly toward the shore.

Which leads to the idea of using harnessed animals on shore, pulling it upstream. Need to have a clear riverbank for that, though.

The idea of pulling yourself along with a rope on the boat that's affixed to the shore was used for ferries, going back and forth, but I can't think of a real-life example over a long distance upstream.

[Histry Nerd]

Hey, MMWyrm -

The Vikings (and other seafaring peoples) were known to row hundreds of miles upstream to raid targets well inland. Of course, that requires a vessel equipped with oars, and probably a crew larger than two.

Hmm... so two guys (would they need more?) could pole a 30-foot loaded boat up a river? That might work.

Possibly, if the water is shallow enough. I'm not sure how deep it's realistic to pole, but I would think a wooden pole more than about fifteen feet long would have to be pretty thick to move a boat that size without breaking. And if the bottom is muddy or silty, there's a good chance of losing the pole, or just of not going anywhere....

A bit crazy, but I was thinking of them somehow pulling themselves up the river with ropes attached to something on shore (this is a fantasy story - no magic though), but that would just run the boat aground I guess.

Not sure it would necessarily run the boat aground, especially if you had poles and/or a rudder to keep it away from the side. It sounds awfully inefficient, though. You would have to tie the ropes off, get back on the boat, pull, get out, move the ropes upriver and tie them off again, get back in the boat, pull, etc. Much more efficient (assuming you have two guys to move the boat, as you suggested) for one guy to get out and walk along the bank with a rope tied around his waist while the other keeps the boat off the bank. When the one gets tired, they can trade places.

Of course, if your guys are amateurs at all this, you could have them try one method, figure out it doesn't work, try another, figure out it's inefficient, then finally figure out how to do it. Then, if you come up with a better idea, they can run into an old guy who says "Why the hell are you doing it that way?" and explains an even easier method.

Hope this helps.
HN

[MMWyrm]

This is over an established trade route in the river. I was thinking perhaps the ropes they pull would be permanent fixtures 'installed' so to speak, along the side of the river.

For a while I was actually going with a couple of oxen walking round on the barge turning some elaborate contraption that would power a paddle wheel... but that seemed a bit too far out there.

I am about 2 minutes from a stretch of the Delaware Canal and I did think of a tow path, although I was trying to get away from having animals with them.

[waylander]

Canals in Britain were build with paths along the bank and barges were towed by draught horses before motorised barges came into use.
I assume the same system worked on the trade rivers of Europe

[Kathie Freeman]

I recall reading a passsage in a book about a trip upstream on the Eerie Canal and the boat was pulled by mules with a stout rope. There were mishaps involved, but all arrived safely.

[Mike Martyn]

A boat 25 to 30 ft long; that is a subject on which I can speak from personal experience.

A Royal Navy cutter is 25 ft long and weighs about 2000lb. It has four thwarts with two rowers per thwart. Each rower manages one oar which is between ten and fourteen feet long. The coxswain (steersman) sits on a small deck at the stern and steers with the tiller bar which is attached to the rudder.

Many years ago, I was port stroke (lead oar) on such a vessel on a three hundred mile river voyage. The other boys ranged from the bow men who were eight years old to me who was eleven. We didn’t get much work out of the eight year olds. They mostly stood look out at the bow or bailed out the bilge. The steersman was fourteen and no adults accompanied us. The trip took us eight days.

I know it sounds a bit strenuous but it would have been familiar to a little midshipman or ship’s boy from the Napoleonic wars

If you’re interested in the sort of commands the coxswain would shout at us, let me know. Also, if you’re interested, I can provide you a link to a picture of such a vessel.

Since none of the oarsmen were more than four foot six and since this is a fantasy novel, think of us as little gnomes toiling away; vulgar smelly little gnomes singing filthy songs.

Another way of going upstream is called “lining”. The boat can be equipped with a bow line and a stern line. The crew goes ashore on the same side of the bank and half of them haul on the stern line and half on the bow line. The steersman yards the rudder over to keep the boat from being pulled ashore.

We never did this with a cutter but that’s what we did with a twenty two foot, 350 pound freighter canoe when I was thirteen.

[Dai Alanye]

I can testify that for two somewhat experienced adults to paddle a canoe against even a five mph flow is difficult work, so your current had better be quite modest. It's possible to make use of eddies in large streams. You can usually find one after each curve, running upstream next to one bank at a slow rate. Getting across the main current to the next eddy takes some effort, however.

[Tsu Dho Nimh]

"Winching" ... you take a long rope upstream, tie it off and pull yourself up the rope with pulleys or capstans. Repeat as needed. It's a bit speedier if you have two ropes, so while you are wincing up one the second is being laid out from the tie-off point of the first.

That's how the Chinese got through some of the bad areas on the Yangtze before power boats.

Also, along the banks you often have quieter currrents, or even reverse flow, so it's a bit easier than if you try to go up the middle.

[MMWyrm]

Tsu - your idea is closest to what I was thinking about, though I was imagining the ropes (chains?) already positioned along the edge of the river - tied off end to loose end.

Perhaps the draft animals and tow barge system would be most reasonable.

Thanks so much guys. You are a great help.

[Tsu Dho Nimh]

Yes, the Chinese had permanent anchor points and even winch crews stationed along the banks of the gorges.