erotica in sci-fi/fantasy....

[preyer]

i'm pretty sure this has been addressed already, but does erotica turn you off a sci-fi/fantasy story? how far can you reasonably go with it? how would you rate most of the genre, PG, R, etc.? is sex rather a taboo subject, and when it's employed, is it generally glossed-over or very subtle as to practically not exist?

[Galoot]

Aside from some rather embarassing stories by Piers Anthony, I've never run across any erotic SF. I suppose there's a place for such a thing, but that place isn't on my book shelf. I can't speak for Fantasy, though, as I haven't read nearly as much of that.

BTW, Erotica is a genre. If the plot hinges on sex it's Erotica. If sex isn't the central theme then it's just a story that happens to contain sex.

I like my SF hard, but not in the erotic sense.

[WVWriterGirl]

I had an issue with this in my second book. It's still only in the writing, getting it out stage, but the scene in question is in oh, chapter three or so. The sex isn't described by any stretch of the imagination. Here's the passage:

“I carried you with me for so long,” she sighed into his ear, “both physically and emotionally.” She allowed a little chuckle to fight its way free from her rising emotions. Kilvaren raised her face to his and kissed her deeply and stopping her words.

“Then let me carry you for a while.”

He gently laid Cislin back on her bed. When he took his place beside her, the place reserved for him so long ago, Cislin’s memories of the urgent, frenzied sex of youth began to be replaced by the passionate, tender love of adulthood. As they began to share that love, Cislin thought, This is how it should have been all along. This is where he belongs now, and always.

__________________
That's the extent of it. My husband says it has turned it into a soap opera, and I may end up taking the entire chapter out because it's not necessary for the story in its entirety. It is necessary for the man to be there, but the sex is not necessary. Like I said, it's still in the "writing" phase and it's too early to make a monumental decision. It isn't necessary for the story, but right now it's necessary for the character, Cislin.

I personally don't find anything wrong with scenes like the one I've posted above in a fantasy novel. I think the genre is read by a lot of men because of the adventure aspect of it, and they don't really want all that mushy girl-stuff. I read the genre because of the locations and the possiblities in those worlds that aren't in ours, but then again, I'm a girl. ;)

What do you think, though? Is the above kind of what you were talking about, or were you talking more along the lines of racy, hot-n-sweaty sexual descriptions? Would you stop reading a fantasy novel in which the above scene appeared in chapter 3?

WVWG

[preyer]

that scene sounds fine to me. would the average fan be opposed to something steamier, you think? not to make it sound like porn or turning it into a sleazy thing for a page or so, but would 'adult' fantasy be out of line with fans and publishers?

[Kate Nepveu]

is sex rather a taboo subject, and when it's employed, is it generally glossed-over or very subtle as to practically not exist?Well, it depends on the book. I recommend you go to your local bookstore and look at Laurel Hamilton's books and Jacqueline Carey's Kushiel series as the books that probably have the most sex of works that are still considered within the genre.

There is also a new trend for paranormal romance; Tor has a new mass-market paranormal romance line (http://www.tor.com/paranormalromance/), and Luna (http://www.luna-books.com/) is publishing paranormal romance trade paperbacks. I own several of these but haven't read them yet.

[SeanDSchaffer]

There is also a new trend for paranormal romance; Tor has a new mass-market paranormal romance line (http://www.tor.com/paranormalromance/), and Luna (http://www.luna-books.com/) is publishing paranormal romance trade paperbacks. I own several of these but haven't read them yet.


I read a book several months ago that fell under the 'Paranormal Romace' genre, where the sexual experience was almost in every third chapter, and was highly intense. I found it acceptable only because it was within the genre 'Paranormal Romance;' I personally would not have felt as comfortable reading the exact same book were it under strictly the 'Fantasy' genre.

However, I am somewhat old-fashioned when it comes to this subject. My take has always been, at least with the Fantasy Genre, that erotica within would best be described in vague terms or in the classic 'they went into the bedroom and shut the door behind them' scene. But again, this is only my humble opinion: I haven't read any recent books of the 'Fantasy' genre itself -- I think the latest I read was an Anne McCaffrey book done back about '89 -- so I don't know much about the trends within the Fantasy Genre presently.

Still, I personally think that a Fantasy book with a lot of erotic scenes in it would be best suited under the genre title 'Paranormal Romance.' It makes more sense to me because if I, as a reader, am not expecting erotic scenes in a book designated 'Fantasy,' (Which under that genre title I usually don't) and find said scenes, I become very uncomfortable reading it. On the other hand, if I start reading a book knowing there is a romantic and erotic flavor to it, I am not so uncomfortable in the reading thereof.

Just my two cents.

[WVWriterGirl]

I forgot to mention that the above scene is the *only* scene in this book that's even moderately racy. I just wanted to make it clear that I didn't dump sex throught the book. *grin*

WVWG

[Ella]

Is there anything wrong with a bit of sex in a story if it's not gratuitous? Is it there just for titillation or does it carry the characters beyond where they were before? I don't think sex is a stranger to SciFi. It just needs to be there for a reason. Explicit descriptions may get you shelved in the wrong section, s'all. ;)

[Kate Nepveu]

Still, I personally think that a Fantasy book with a lot of erotic scenes in it would be best suited under the genre title 'Paranormal Romance.' It makes more sense to me because if I, as a reader, am not expecting erotic scenes in a book designated 'Fantasy,' (Which under that genre title I usually don't) and find said scenes, I become very uncomfortable reading it. On the other hand, if I start reading a book knowing there is a romantic and erotic flavor to it, I am not so uncomfortable in the reading thereof.I think if you saw the packaging, cover copy, etc., of the Hamilton and Carey books, you'd expect the erotic scenes. But this is an excellent point--reader expectations are serious and powerful things, and if authors are going to violate them, they ought to know what they're doing and why.

[preyer]

that's why i've always lobbied for a ratings system on books, an idea that's roundly rejected by most writers on these boards. i think what a lot of writers are afraid of is wal*mart won't carry their books if 'they' knew what was in them, lol.

'preyers' is by no means meant for the kiddies or folk not liking some, ah, risque storytelling. for instance, late in the book, one of my two protags completely has his mind blasted, is thrown into a pit of corpses, finds his lover there, and, bear in mind he's totally lost it, tries to screw her back to life. of course, that's not erotic in any sense of the word, but just as an illustration of how far a publisher is willing to go within the fantasy genre, i have to wonder if that's pushing things perhaps too far for a fanbase that's pretty conservative for the most part (or at least that's generally the type of fare we're offered, though i've seen some 'dark fantasy' books that have pushed some limits).

odd that there are plenty of covers with hot chicks on them and we expect the books *not* to contain a good sex scene, eh? lol.

[Kate StAmour]

Erotic(a)/Romantica Sci-Fi/Fantasy is becoming increasingly popular particularly with e-pubs. Check out: Ellora's Cave, Liquid Silver Books, and Loose ID (to name a few). What you will find if you check around is that erotica readers are demanding more intricate storylines. Now, while the erotica industry is booming, I don't think many erotica readers are also straight sci-fi readers, so the probability of shared readership is most likely small.

[preyer]

true. i'm not suggesting mixing genres, particularly erotica and sci-fi. as mentioned, more just a well-placed sex scene in SF/F that's got a little heft to it. it begs to have a satire written about it, no?

[Roger J Carlson]

Aside from some rather embarassing stories by Piers Anthony, I've never run across any erotic SF. I suppose there's a place for such a thing, but that place isn't on my book shelf. I can't speak for Fantasy, though, as I haven't read nearly as much of that.


Heinlein attempted it in his later SF books. It may not seem like it now, but "Time Enough for Love", "Number of the Beast", "Stranger in a Strange Land", and "I Will Fear No Evil" were all pretty racy for their times.

Robert Silverberg also dabbled in it. "Tower of Glass" comes to mind.

You have to remember, though, up until the late 70s, SF magazines were pretty puritanical.

I read one straight-up (you'll forgive the pun) erotic fantasy novel. It had wizards and witches, elves (both high and low), dwarves and goblins. The interesting thing is that although it started out being purely erotic in nature and VERY explicit, as the story progressed, the eroticism became less prominent. By the end, it was a typical "heroic journey" type fantasy. It was very interesting to watch it metamorphose from pornography into literature.

I don't think every story should have (or be about) sex. But every story should at least acknowledge its existence, since sex is fundamental to human psychology.

[veinglory]

I like sf erotica but I want to know that it will be in the book before I buy it, rather than just 'popping up'.

[Ella]

I don't think every story should have (or be about) sex. But every story should at least acknowledge its existence, since sex is fundamental to human psychology.

You nailed it perfectly!:Clap:

(Pardon the pun. It's so easy to do.)

Ella

[Birol]

Heinlein attempted it in his later SF books. It may not seem like it now, but "Time Enough for Love", "Number of the Beast", "Stranger in a Strange Land", and "I Will Fear No Evil" were all pretty racy for their times.
I don't think every story should have (or be about) sex. But every story should at least acknowledge its existence, since sex is fundamental to human psychology.


Don't forget Heinlein's Friday. Sex was pretty casual in it. And McCaffrey's Freedom's Landing series had some sex scenes in them, though IMO that entire series was far from her best work. The Pern books, too, if you think of the dragon mating scenes and how the dragonriders reacted when their dragons were in heat. *shrug*

I think sex is actually pretty prevalent in the SF/F genre.

[preyer]

sure, sex is there, but how it's described and dealt with is changing gradually, isn't it? how far can published gay sci-fi/fantasy be off? i'm not talking about erotica fan-fic or something you'd find off the internet, but right there on the shelves at B&N. put that stuff in 'gay interest' or alongside asimov?

[Birol]

But I'm saying its already there. In Friday, it was as likely for the female characters to jump into bed with one another as it was for a threesome or sixsome to occur. At one point in that book, two female characters were cohabitating in a nice little family environment.

Another example, F.M. Busby's Star Rebel. It is the classic Navy-in-space scenario. Sex between members of the same sex was a spacing offense. Yet, when the protag catches two men in the airlock, he agrees to cover it up rather than reporting them.

Granted, none of the elements of these books are the primary plot points, but in some cases, how the main characters react do create decisive moments for them. Other times, it is mere background information. When you are talking about where things should be shelved at B&N, to me that would be the deciding factor. Is the sex a detail or as the primary plot?

[preyer]

unfortunately, if it's there in graphic form, the deciding factor may be the stores selling the book. advertised as a 'gay space opera,' i'm pretty sure wal*mart isn't going to carry it. okay, i'm damn skippy they won't.

in those examples you provided, i think it depends on the detail of the laison more than if it happened and was gone in the same paragraph. and i venture to say that lesbian acts are by far more acceptable than male/male acts, eh? there's also a difference between your side characters being caught in the airlock together as opposed to the main character hiding his or her homosexuality. i think you could get away the heroine being gay as long as there's a strong male hero, and her actions don't go into terrific detail and people would be cool with it, especially if you threw in a sexual tension even between them. on the flip side, a strong gay male protagonist, even glossing over sex with another male, i think you're going to have a hard time getting it the same shelves as piers anthony if the store knows about the content.

when i write, if sex comes up, it's dealt with in the way i think it's appropriate. i certainly don't shy away from it. gimme a hundred people in a real-life work scenario and i'll show you people having sex with one another, heh heh. so, from that standpoint, which tries to come from a practical skew, sex, to me, is as much of a natural premise as religion. of course, neither should just be thrown in there with reckless abandon without purpose. i think that's whay you were asking for in the last sentence, no? if not, i'm not sure if sex is ever the entire premise of many, if any, SF/F books, is it? i mean, it's not exactly very noble for the ragtag band of misfit warriors going off to kill the bad guy just so they can score with chicks afterwards, is it? lol.

i think it was always understood back in the day that the hero was going to get some *after* they sped away from the dying planet, beautiful mad scientist's daughter in tow. then you had captain kirk put on his boots after rolling out of bed, not to mention the controversial first inter-racial kiss ever on t.v.. and it's funny you gave examples that were all science fiction, which has seemed to advance far beyond fantasy's standards (advance or degrade, however you want to look at it, but i ask you, which genre is 'worth' more to an investor, SF or F?). is it safe to say there's more sex and sexuality in SF? is that something an editor might look for, and if it's too strong of a scene, is that something he'd want edited out?

[Galoot]

Ah, yeah. Heinlein. I forgot about him. The adolescent me thought he was cool. The adult me thought he was either obsessed or stuck rewriting the same book over and over again.

The racier he got the less I liked him. Sex in space, sex in the past, sex in the future, sex in alternate universes, sex in Oz, sex underwater, sex in Heaven, sex in Hell...did I miss any? God rest his soul, but man! Take the sex out of his later novels and you wind up with short stories.

I read SF to expand my mind, not my pants.

[skyi001]

I read SF to expand my mind, not my pants.
ROFLMAO! But wouldn't it be great if it could do both? hehe Seriously, I agree with what Kate said about the "shared readership"...those that want erotica will buy erotica and those who want fantasy will buy fantasy.

Of course, you may have to explain the word "fantasy" to some who are not familiar with the genre. I once told a friend's boyfriend that I wrote fantasy and he turned to her and said, "Oh, like the ones we read in bed?" EEEK! He was much less interested when he found out what I really wrote.

[Birol]

I once told a friend's boyfriend that I wrote fantasy and he turned to her and said, "Oh, like the ones we read in bed?" EEEK! He was much less interested when he found out what I really wrote.




:ROFL: That's priceless.

[maestrowork]

I think it was Stephen King who said "sex is always there." You can write about it, around it, over it, under it, but always keep in mind that people have sex in their minds, a lot of times, consciously and subconsciously. That includes your characters, and your readers. You can't avoid it. So use it to your advantage.

And sometimes it's good even if sex is only a motivation, a by-product, and not the end goals or results. Men could go to wars for sex, but not because of sex... Helen of Troy could launch a thousand ships, but probably no one got to sleep with her at all...

Now, how far do you go in any particular genre depends on the genre. Obviously there's quite a lot of sex in romance and erotica. And none in children's book... (but even Bambi has "sex"in it, if you think about it) I suspect that in fantasy/sci-fi you can push the envelope as well, as long as you don't step over the line for any particular publisher (if publication is your goal).

The question is: do you really want to see two hobbits getting it on?

;)

[Roger J Carlson]

I'm not sure I can see Samwise Hamfast and Rosie Cotton in bed together!

But seriously, I think the discussion has gotten off track. Just because a novel has sex in it doesn't make it erotic, does it? The purpose of an erotic novel is to arouse sexual interest -- 'expand the pants' as skyi001 said so eloquently.

Other than that fantasy novel I mentioned (and can't remember the name of) I can't think of any SF or Fantasy novel that I would classify as erotic. Short fiction, however may be a different story.

I remember reading an anthology of short SF devoted to sex. I can't pull out the title, but I remember the cover. There was a naked woman with tubing all over her body and curled around her breasts. Anyone remember that? Some of those stories could be classified as erotic.

[maestrowork]

When you cross genre like that, one would ask is it really an erotica with SF/F elements in it, or is it a SF/F with erotic elements in it? It's all about focus. Certainly an erotica can be set anywhere, any time. I can see an erotica set in Hobbitland... if there's an audience for that (yes, there are people who think hobbits are sexy). But I think a real SF/F story is not about arousing people's sexual appetite. Certainly there can be scenes and elements of such, but I think I can say this with confidence: SF/F is not about sex, in general. Once you cross into sexually focused stories, I think you're writing erotica.

[Galoot]

I think it was Stephen King who said "sex is always there." You can write about it, around it, over it, under it, but always keep in mind that people have sex in their minds, a lot of times, consciously and subconsciously. That includes your characters, and your readers. You can't avoid it. So use it to your advantage.

And sometimes it's good even if sex is only a motivation, a by-product, and not the end goals or results.
My thoughts exactly. Maybe I'll have to give that King guy a read some time. I hear he's growing popular.

(Nearly) everyone is motivated by sex to some degree. It's one of our basic drives. How much sex motivates the characters is the issue. Samwise could have stayed home to boff Rosie, but he chose to hang out with his friend instead.

Yeah, yeah, a person could say "But if he didn't go then he wouldn't have made it into the story." To which I could reply "Right! The story was about friendship. Tolkien would have picked a more pliable and less horny hobbit to hang out with Frodo if Sam had wanted to stay home. The story chose the character and the author chose the story."


By the way, don't mock the hobbit fetish. I've had a thing for short people in bonnets ever since Witness (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0090329/).

[Pthom]

I think it was Stephen King who said "sex is always there." You can write about it, around it, over it, under it, but always keep in mind that people have sex in their minds, a lot of times, consciously and subconsciously. That includes your characters, and your readers. You can't avoid it. So use it to your advantage.Yes, sex is always there. So are activities we all do (and, I venture, so do aliens and monsters) such as using the bathroom ... But we hardly ever see mention of eliminating bodily wastes or maybe not so rarely, bathing. Is the mention of these activites, like the mention of sex, such a taboo? I think not so much taboos as they're generally unnecessary to further the plot. Yet, I think of the movie, "Rob Roy," where the protagonist's wife is caught while doing her morning's morning. I suppose she could have been out picking lavender or feeding the dog, but then she wouldn't have been in such jeopardy.

So, are our mores such that we feel a need to dance around the issues of procreation and personal hygene, or do we avoid these subjects primarily because there just isn't really any need, given our plot lines?

[preyer]

funny you mention that: one book i wrote had the protag wake up, go to the bathroom, basically perform his daily ablutions in an uncomfortable manner with the thought, 'jeez, they never tell you about this stuff when making you a hero.' that's about as much space as i devoted to it. i did it more as a way to show the hero's discomfort and how mundane even a hero's life can be at times. at the same time, the hero was tired of being a hero, so i felt it fit well with the character's overall attitude.

still, i'm not if it's fair to compare taking a crap with losing your virginity, or even scoring with the heroine. it's always been interesting to me, though, how people in the past are usually depicted as having perfectly straight and sparkling teeth. well, not that that's ever said outright, but it's rarely even indicated, either, except the villian always has either rotten green teeth or are so perfect it's beyond description. i think what it is is only villians have teeth/fangs, everyone else just gums their elvish bread.

best scene of 'demolition man' is where he swears into the machine so many times to get enough paper to wipe his arse because he can't figure out the three seashells. you're right, though, there's enough imagery in that-- i don't need the details, lol. (still, it killed me not knowing how the three seashells worked, either.)

[Roger J Carlson]

Well, I don't need to know how many times a character uses the bathroom (and for what) anymore than I need to know how many times he breathes per minute. That is, unless it is pertinent to the story. I may need to know that a character's breath was rapid if he is running from an assailant or that she ran to the bathroom to puke after seeing a grisly murder.

By the same token, while I don't usually acknowledge such everyday functions, I can't ignore them completely either. Just like I can't have a character hold his breath for ten minutes (without adding some rationalization like being in a trance), I also can't have a character hide in a closet for 18 hours without a catheter or some such.

[preyer]

this is true. you don't want to mention these things if you don't need to. i pointed that scene out because i felt it did justice to the character's distaste of what he'd become, which was something he had at one time wanted to be based on all the gilt and glamour of being a hero, where the reality was everyone else lived happy lives in nice homes, and here he was a lifetime later still crapping in the woods, which if you've ever crapped in the woods before, ain't exactly the height of luxury, lol.

i like those slices of life, though. i wonder what heroes do after the adventure, what the oscar-winner does that night once he goes home and locks his doors. what happens in the battle usually isn't as interesting as the aftermath to me. whenever there's a technical lay-out of a fictional space ship, the first thing i look for is the bathroom. if there isn't a bathroom, the design is bogus and not worth the paper it's printed on, eh?

i've read in plenty of books where the character wakes up and 'performed his ablutions' and that's done and over with. books are far more centred around what a character eats, if they even mention that. at the same time, most readers probably don't want to know how bad their historical character actually stinks or about the fetid smell of rotting feces surrounding a castle. *i* do, but i'm weird like that. :)

[Roger J Carlson]

i've read in plenty of books where the character wakes up and 'performed his ablutions' and that's done and over with. books are far more centred around what a character eats, if they even mention that. at the same time, most readers probably don't want to know how bad their historical character actually stinks or about the fetid smell of rotting feces surrounding a castle. *i* do, but i'm weird like that. :)

But this too can be overdone (not saying that you've done it). I recently started (but never finished) reading a fantasy where EVERY scene was accompanied by detailed smells. After a sword fight, they smelled the stench of the dead man fouling himself. Well sure I know that when someone dies, they lose control of their bowels, but I don't want to hear about it every time.

A hardened fighter wouldn't even notice the smell, so why mention it? On the other hand, a novice might smell it and be sickened by it. That makes it important to the story. Otherwise, it's just gratuitous.

[maestrowork]

Sex is a motivation, if not the end goal or means. Usually going to the bathroom is not a strong motivation. If you want to make going to the bathroom a motivation, go for it: He must fight and kill the bastard in the parking lot, so that he can finally release himself at the diner's filthy bathroom...

There are many basic human needs, and they are strong motivators: the need for food and water, shelters, companionship, sex. Stories are about people and their relationships with one another. Sex is a very good motivator (conscious or subconscious) when you deal with human relationships.

When I said "sex is always on people's mind," I don't mean to say everything you write, or everything the characters do, is about sex. Read King's On Writing -- he talks briefly on it. Sex manifests itself in various things -- aggression, intimidating, awkwardness, direct desires, kinky thoughts, tension, depression, etc, etc, etc. Not only is sex a good motivator, it's also a good distractor, or conflict generator. Give your character a sex life (or take it away) and see how his personality changes... and if the character is asexual, what about how the other characters react to him/her? Does sex manifest into any conscious and unconscious emotions, actions and conflicts for them?

In my WIP, for example, it hasn't really been about sex -- not a mention of sex at all -- but the sexual undertone is there. And if I'm correct, the readers will get it, since sex is on their minds, whether they realize that or not.

[MacAllister]

And to push what Maestro just said even a bit further: Sex--and attitudes, hang-ups, fetishes and what-have-you ABOUT sex--not only function as direct motivators, but also play a behind-the-scenes function informing both characterization and story.

I find this especially true in genre fiction.

[whitehound]

Maestrowork said that "SF/F is not about sex, in general. Once you cross into sexually focused stories, I think you're writing erotica" but this surely only applies if the story is focused on sex primarily in order to *be* erotic.

You could perfectly well write SF about how sex might evolve in different societies, species and technologies. There's a humorous filk song (SF-based folk song) called something like "An investigation into the concept of anatomical docking manouvres in a zero-gravity environment" which is actually quite thought-provoking (especially after a few pints), and which examines the serious problems which would confront anyone trying to have sex while weightless, and makes sensible suggestions about what to do about it. This seems to me to be perfectly legit. SF, and not particularly erotic.

Again, there's a wonderfully well-written published novel about Babylon 5, called Clarke's Law (by John Mortimer), in which one of the characters is a human male who is sexually fixated on aliens. This is sensitively but fairly explicitly portrayed, and is IMO a valid comment on the sort of thing that almost certainly will happen if we encounter aliens who are even vaguely physically and emotionally compatible with us. [I don't mean humanoid - one of the guy's amours was a sort of hippo covered in tentacles - but just having some sort of concept of sex and not actively dripping acid.]

I know of at least two anthologies of SF stories about sex - one called Arrows of Eros, which sounds like erotica dressed as SF but has at least a couple of good SF ideas in it, and one called Great Balls of Fire.

[Galoot]

...just having some sort of concept of sex and not actively dripping acid
Just because that's not your thing, don't judge the rest of us.

[Paolo]

I struggled with that theme while writing my sci fi novel. All the major characters are female, becasue the story primarily deals with an all-female world. I handled sexual themes very delicately and most of the sex was implied. I also explored themes of intense intimacy NOT based on sexual relations. Some of the intimate relationships in the book occur between members of different species. I wanted to explore how two sentient creatures might have a loving, romantic and devoted relationship without sex. The results are strange, but touching.

I did find it necessary to describe some intimacy between two females - one human, the other humanoid. Don't worry, it's not as bestial as it sounds, the species are close enough, and technically, they may be the same. It's rather hard to explain here. You'll just have to read the book (shameless plug).

Anyway, I'm still not sure how that particular relationship will play out with the reader and I can't be sure until its published. All I know is that it was necessary to the plot. I won't pull any punches either. It was fun to write, too.

[Medievalist]

Certainly there can be scenes and elements of such, but I think I can say this with confidence: SF/F is not about sex, in general. Once you cross into sexually focused stories, I think you're writing erotica.

I understand what Maestrowork is saying, and here are some works that aren't about sex, but rather are about issues surrounding sex, like gender and social roles:

Delany Triton, Dahlgren, The Stars in My Pocket Like Grains of Sand, Einstein Intersection

LeGuin The Left Hand of Darkness

Sarah Zettel Playing God

[Paolo]

Samwise could have stayed home to boff Rosie, but he chose to hang out with his friend instead.

Awesome point. Samwise acted on a love so deep it made him forget about his own life. He literally carried his friend through hell and did it gratefully.

So in that relationship, you have intense passion and powerful intimacy without sex. Is sex implied? Does that kind of love and devotion always imply something erotic?

Don't know.

I guess we focus on sex because that's where we all came from. Naturally we're fascinated by the act that got us here. It's the stuff behind the act that I want to explore in my characters.

I'd be interested to know how other folks here have dealt with the subject (in general terms).

[whitehound]

So in that relationship, you have intense passion and powerful intimacy without sex. Is sex implied? Does that kind of love and devotion always imply something erotic?No. If the friends are gender-compatible (straight and of opposite gender; gay and same gender; or simply bi), sometimes an intimate friendship will lead to erotic attraction; or sometimes it will kill it off totally, by making them see each other as too much like siblings to be fanciable.

[The incest taboo runs deep in humans. Traditional kibbutzim, where children were raised all together in a Children's House from infancy, ran into trouble because they found that kids who had grown up living as brother and sister could not fancy each other, even though really they were unrelated.]

If they aren't gender-compatible, then however much they love each other, the idea of getting erotic is going to make at least one partner go "Ewww!."

And yes, you can love someone that deeply without wanting to shag them. Family members do it all the time. The two most important relationships in my own life have been a potentially sexual relationship with a guy (sadly he died before it could become actually sexual) and a totally asexual life-long friendship with a woman.

[RhiannonKelley]

I don't think there's anything wrong with sex in Sci Fi/Fantasy books. I think it just depends upon the author. I think it was mentioned before about Laurell K Hamilton and Jaqualine Carey. They are both in Sci Fi and Fantasy and there is plenty to be had as far as sex. In Carey's series, the main character carries out her spy duties in the disuise of a trained "call girl". As far as gratuitous sex, I think again it is up to the author. I don't see why gratuitous sex can't be in a story, people have gratuitous sex all the time in real life, so I think its fine in a story.

[whitehound]

Sure - so long as it doesn't take over to the point where the story is just erotica with SF trimmings, rather than SF with a sexy sub-plot.

[Paolo]

Sure - so long as it doesn't take over to the point where the story is just erotica with SF trimmings, rather than SF with a sexy sub-plot.

I agree. After all, we're all sensitive people with so much to give.