Don't dive into shallow waters, you'll hurt yourself.

What specifically makes you feel this way? If it's lack of description or character development, you can fix that.

As a general rule of thumb, the writer needs to know several times as much backstory as actually appears in the novel. The fact that it's bugging you may be a good indication you need to work more of it out. (Some writers have the opposite problem--they know enough backstory, but they put all of it into the novel.)

However, is this the novel you give the wordcount for in your sig? So you're almost finished first draft? It's also possible you're having a delayed case of the mid-novel blues. That's a very common phenomenon.

Try to make yourself push through to the end (give yourself permission to write crap), then put it away for at least two months. Do keep writing something--short stories or writing exercises if you don't have another novel idea on tap. Mostly though, focus on recharging your batteries.

After two months, pull out the MS and read it straight through, start to finish. You'll be looking at it with a new perspective. See if it still seems shallow then.

First, listen to FennelGiraffe. She gives good advice and the things she is mentioning are valid.

Second, another take.

One of the things you can do to add depth is not necessarily in back story, but perhaps in theme. A lot of writers don't have a fully developed theme in first draft, they find the theme after writing the first draft and work on it in second. Heightening the theme in a later draft often makes the work richer, and I would also add that use of a solid extended metaphor (to illuminate that theme) does wonders for the depth of a book.

FennelGiraffe said:

Try to make yourself push through to the end (give yourself permission to write crap), then put it away for at least two months. Do keep writing something--short stories or writing exercises if you don't have another novel idea on tap. Mostly though, focus on recharging your batteries.

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Yup, this is good advice. Keep writing. Here's one question/suggestion--has everything you've written about this story ended up in the novel? When it comes to world building, one of my habits is to write scenes I know will never end up in the actual novel. Interactions between characters. Stories from characters' pasts. Stuff that keeps me interested in the story and allows me to build my vision of the world, even if it never makes it into the novel.

Stew21 said:

One of the things you can do to add depth is not necessarily in back story, but perhaps in theme. A lot of writers don't have a fully developed theme in first draft, they find the theme after writing the first draft and work on it in second. Heightening the theme in a later draft often makes the work richer, and I would also add that use of a solid extended metaphor (to illuminate that theme) does wonders for the depth of a book.

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I have had the same feeling about my WIP, actually, although it's weird because the feeling goes away when I reread what I have written and is just present when I am away from the work, thinking about it.

Anyway, I think the above advice is profound, simple, and exceptionally well put. Thanks Trish. It actually strcuk me as something of a lifeline because I am so critical of myself that sometimes my first drafts never get out as I am constantly seeing issues that I could, and should, resolve on a rewrite.

I've definitely experienced the midnovel blues myself. You start to doubt your whole book when maybe just days ago, you were so condfident about it.

Right now, I'm in the middle of my second book, and my MC seems so...flat. I know I have some work to do on her. But I'm following the above advice and pushing through to the end. Fix it during your revision - that's what the revision process is for. And trust me when I say your revision will make your book soooooo much better!

Revisions do wonders! ACE is right about that!

I struggled with the first drafts of both of my novels. The first book is beyond help (though I imagine one of these days I'll get a notion to dig back into it and see what I can do to it to make it better). The second isn't half bad at draft #3. Don't expect the first draft to come out beautiful as a morning glory. They just really don't come out that way.
You'll find your depth in your next draft and if you don't, you'll add it.

oh, and your "still not title" in your sig line - that sometimes comes with the theme too.

I absolutely always feel this way. I read everything, so when I put my stuff up against what I read it always comes off as shallow and lame to me. What I find, though, is that the people who have read my stuff see it with completely different eyes than the ones I see it with. My readers have told me about stuff that I didn't even know was in my work. Even though I know everything behind the scenes, the backstory, etc...I have no idea what's right in front of my eyes. One reader blew me away recently with a 10-page comment sheet she sent me after reading my novel. She spoke of theme, denouement, the threads that were weaved within the story...all these things I didn't see. I don't even know the theme...well, I didn't until she pointed it out to me. The thing is...you need somebody more distant than yourself to tell you whether or not your perceived weaknesses are really there. You are no judge of your own work. Chin up...maybe it's as absorbing as everything else you read and aspire to. Find a beta.

I guess it depends on what you're trying to create. My novels aren't "deep" and they aren't meant to be. I think what I write is similar to what was written back in the pulp era, a whiz-bang fun adventure, nothing more than cotton candy for the mind, which is the sort of stories I love to read.

KTC said:

I absolutely always feel this way. I read everything, so when I put my stuff up against what I read it always comes off as shallow and lame to me. What I find, though, is that the people who have read my stuff see it with completely different eyes than the ones I see it with. My readers have told me about stuff that I didn't even know was in my work. Even though I know everything behind the scenes, the backstory, etc...I have no idea what's right in front of my eyes. One reader blew me away recently with a 10-page comment sheet she sent me after reading my novel. She spoke of theme, denouement, the threads that were weaved within the story...all these things I didn't see. I don't even know the theme...well, I didn't until she pointed it out to me. The thing is...you need somebody more distant than yourself to tell you whether or not your perceived weaknesses are really there. You are no judge of your own work. Chin up...maybe it's as absorbing as everything else you read and aspire to. Find a beta.

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this is true too. A lot of us go through this.

megan_d said:

So lately my MS has been feeling... Well, I guess the best word here would be "shallow." Other novels seem to be these complex little machines, and mine feels like a magnet tied to the end of a stick in comparison.

And yet, I don't think my plot is simple. I don't think my character's are without depth. My little universe needs a little fleshing out, but nothing the second revision won't fix. And yet, the feeling of shallowness persists.

I think some of the problem might be that I, as the creator of this little monster, know everything (about the novel). And, more importantly, I know what I don't know. I know that I don't know great big slabs of backstory, which makes everything seem shallow. But does it come across the the MS?

I'm too close to it, I think. Does anyone else ever get struck with feelings like this? Will it pass? Should I try and fill that backstory in, even if it's just for myself and never makes it into the MS?

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The more you get to know your MC the further and more in depth your story will feel. Sit back and watch your story through your main characters eyes and by the rules of the world she/he walks in and i'm sure you will get more of a thought process going.

Add a subplot. Add two.

Minor characters will save your life.

Counterpoint to the theme.

FennelGiraffe said:

(give yourself permission to write crap)

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If I didn't give myself permission to write crap, I'd never write at all.


And yes, the fact you are struggling over the lack of back story with your character could possibly be an indication there is a problem there. But like others have said, write it out (ha, ha, Get it? Instead of "ride" it out, I said "write" it out. It's not nearly as funny if I have to explain. Work with me people!) Anyway, just keep going, and if you think you need to know what the backstory is, yeah, write a summary of it. Even if it never makes it in the novel, it might help you feel more comfortable with your story.

if the story works without the exposition, there's no reason to add it. imo, it's the same with subplots unless you *really* have to add one... if not, why overcomplicate things? 'complication' does not equate to 'depth.' if you're finding your 'deep meaning' by tacking on a bunch of bullshit, what's that say about the original story? tells me the real story is with the side dishes, not the main course.

doesn't sound as if you're lacking enough words. it's probably just a temporary loss of confidence. artists suffer this constantly, you're not alone. (i recall the story of jimmy page losing faith in the second zeppelin album, i think it was. he'd worked on it for so long. too long. yet it was brilliant. sorry, i can't dredge up any writing examples off the top of my head, though i'm sure it's even more true considering novel writing hinges mostly on the writer and there's no one really else to blame if it doesn't work.)

it's always hard to write a novel and learn a lot of things about writing novels at the same time, too. not that this applies to you, just saying is all....

things you've admitted to; 'my plot is not simple,' 'my characters have depth,' and 'my universe needs a bit of bulking up but is otherwise solid.' if that pretty much sums it up, sounds like you need a pep talk, nothing more.

Stew21 said:

One of the things you can do to add depth is not necessarily in back story, but perhaps in theme. A lot of writers don't have a fully developed theme in first draft, they find the theme after writing the first draft and work on it in second. Heightening the theme in a later draft often makes the work richer, and I would also add that use of a solid extended metaphor (to illuminate that theme) does wonders for the depth of a book.

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This is great advice. Might it be that a lack of worldbuilding seems to be the problem, when it's actually that your theme isn't developed to the fullest?

I personally need backstory for my novel.
I've been doing it for that last few weeks and I notice a difference in my own thinking of the story.

Before, I had a group of characters that had to do this, and that was it.
But then I started really wondering about the place where they lived, which occupies like, 2% of the novel.

I didn't feel confident with the story. I didn' think a lot of thinks through, to be honest.
I just had this and that because that's what I needed.
But if you create backstory for almost everything(teh more, the better), it just makes it feel more alive.
I feel that my stories are getting that feeling of deepness that you talk about. tehs tuff I get from Harry Potter and LotR.
Just think about your world.

And it really depends on your story.
Is it fantasy/Sci-Fi? Or historical? or just one character getting depressed(I know it's a stereotype of stories people write)?

If you want a big world to feel deep, create that deepness.
Put stuff in the hollowness.
Don't just create a hole and say "Ah! See? It is a big hole! Ain't I great?"
Fill it, preferably to the top, and who knows, you could even create mountains of little treasures that come from your world on top of that hole.

Trust me, you feel steadier when dealing with the story and you have less doubts, if you do it.

"Do I really have to create a backstory to everything?"
The more the better. And you take less risks of missing something and appearing shallow as you say. Do you want your reader to think. "Gosh! this author didn't think anything through!"
If you like your story you should have no problem in dayreaming of the things in it.

but it could also be that you have a good story already.
the commentary you have received from people who have read it shows us that they can see things that you're glad they do, even though hadn't noticed those yet.
If they can do this by now, by themselves.....do you need to touch the story?

Danger Jane said:

This is great advice. Might it be that a lack of worldbuilding seems to be the problem, when it's actually that your theme isn't developed to the fullest?

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Just checking something, and it's going to sound ignorant, which it is...
An example of a 'theme' would be....?
Growing up. Good Vs. Evil?
If so, how do you develop that?

HourglassMemory said:

Just checking something, and it's going to sound ignornat, which it is...
An example of a 'theme' would be....?
Growing up. Good Vs. Evil?
If so, how do you develop that?

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That's basically it. Coming of age is a common theme in YA, for instance, or in the Great Gatsby, the themes are of the superficiality of wealth and the decline of the American dream. Most writers discover their themes partway through or after writing the first draft.

When you edit a novel, keep in mind the theme--a detail here or there will do wonders bringing it out. Stuff like extended metaphors, like trish said, can be really good for emphasizing a theme.

i'd say the theme is the underlying concept, the 'what i'm trying to say without saying it out loud' ideas. if you wanted to explore the relationship between an estranged father and son, that's the theme. doesn't matter if one's the court magician and the other is a jester (actually, that's a pretty good idea) or one's a klingon and the other is his bastard vulcan son. if you've got any drama at all you're apt to have themes even if you don't intentionally know you're writing them. for example, two sisters who don't get along might be a theme if it's something you delve into. you don't have to preach or teach anything to have a theme.

usually as i write, themes become apparent. it's my job to recognize them and see if i can exploit, er, explore it. that's another reason why outlines don't work for me personally. still, once i see a theme popping up, i take advantage of it and it helps shape the guts of the story.

if you use themes, you'll want to know about metaphors and allegory.

do you need a theme to get published? no, i wouldn't say so. would it hurt? probably not, unless you screw the theme up, and if you manage that the rest of the story is probably screwed up, too.

you can base novels around themes. were i to do this, i'd pick out a dynamic human trait, say, greed, and attach to that, say, redemption. or greed and and a riches-to-rags story (watch 'wall street' for the perfect example of this). basically, you can pick some dynamic trait and make it mean something.

just don't tell the reader what you mean. that beat up clunker your MC is driving could be allegorical for the way his life is going or the way society is progressing (or falling apart).

'good v. evil' doesn't make for a very good definition of a theme, imo. i mean, what is that? yeah, it's a theme, but could you be *less* specific? the answer is, of course, no, you couldn't. for it to be more effective it has to be more specific. 'g v. e' is, imo, simply too broad.

i'll give you an example. parke godwin did his version of 'beowulf,' which in its broadest sense could be a 'g v. e' tale. beowulf versus grendel. what the character is really about is his quest to forgive himself for being human, which leads him early in life to flee from a battle. he kept his action a secret and branded himself a coward, then to prove to himself he's not, goes on practically suicidal missions. after becoming reknowned for spectacular deeds and ridiculous bravery, he still can't forgive himself. he does eventually. then gets killt. such is life on paper, eh? the theme here is obviously redemption, and not just in other people's eyes, but in your own, the need to forgive yourself.

would that book exist without starting off without a theme? not without many, many drafts.

a story isn't restricted to only one theme, either. if your theme is the unattainability of the american dream, under that umbrella you're likely to explore many themes. in the 'beowulf' example, 'shame' would be another theme. he's shamed into needing redemption.

greed, power, friendship, lust, survival, jealousy, revenge, cowardice, love, growing up, loneliness... the list goes on. these are the things that give your story meaning. you have to test these things with your characters and situations. and you most certainly have, even if you know it or not. some academics would advise not to even start writing unless you know what you're writing *about*. looking at LOTR and harry potter, you can surely see many blatant themes being explored. the power of love and unity and friendship duh duh duh duh duh.

is it just about harry versus voldemort? hardly. is it good versus evil? well, yeah, kinda, sorta, in its broadest sense, i guess. it's kind of like saying 'conflict' is a theme. well, what about conflict?

*what about* conflict?

what about greed?

what about modern day slavery?

what about the street urchin living in the city of gold?

if you reduce your entire story into one paragraph, therein you're likely to discover the governing themes. you may have to read between the lines a bit, but it's there. 'a plucky street urchin befriends a slave and together they concoct a scheme to steal the street of gold.' right there you've got self-reliance/survival, friendship/potential love and a moral question: is it right to steal from the rich to help the poor (especially if the poor is yourself!)? my goodness gracious gravy, what more do you want from a story, anyway? sprinkles on top?

have i got you thinking about themes? good. and bad. it's easy to lose the story you're in the middle of when themes start to take over.

'oh, but, Preyer, not every story has a theme!'

name one. i don't care what the author's intention was, his story has a theme. whether or not he explored it is another matter.

'oh, but, Preyer, that's like saying every story has acts!'

true. what story doesn't? what writer doesn't start off with an introduction, rising tension, and resolution? again, you may not know you're doing it, but you're probably very much sticking to a loose storytelling structure. that's what people mean when they say 'i'm an intuitive storyteller.' what that really is saying is they're writing a story no differently than it's ever been written for thousands of years, but they lack the in-depth knowledge of what they're doing.

theme and structure go hand-in-hand. like peanut butter and jelly. fred and ethel. captain and tenille. preyer and hot, gratifying sex.

was 'the great gatsby' written without a theme in mind? i doubt it. 'friday the 13th'? probably not so much, but themes are there, you betcha.

take your character. he has to grow from point A, the first time we meet him or her or it, to point B, where we depart them after they've grown at the end. everything inbetween serves to justify that change. themes, when it comes to character growth, justify the justification. the character has to do or experience something for the change to happen.

'a man goes on a wild adventure and reconnects with his estranged father.'

pretty cool theme. you've got 'indiana jones and the last crusade' right there.

'a man goes on a wild adventure and learns that there's more to life than making money.'

hm, sounds like 'a christmas carole' to me. among other stories. in each example, you've got your beginning and your end *and* what your story is *about*. the 'about' is contained in all that middle stuff. it's how father and son build a relationship, how a miser comes to his life-altering conclusion.

you could do a story without considering the themes inherit in *any* story. you could also be missing out on a lot of great opportunities once those themes become apparent. then again you could always drown in your own self-righteous poignancy, you never know.

as to the comments regarding adding backstory... i'm of the mind that less is more and rarely, if ever, all at once and up front. dole out your world-building in spurts. if your 'universe' is an archetype in itself, i'll pick up on it pretty quickly. i don't need to know, nor do i care, about how the politics of frodo's village operate. i don't know much about sewage systems of the babylonians, either, and i rather doubt that if you told me it'd make much difference unless that's their escape route or entrance into the palace (and probably be very unimpressed with that old go-to cliche). do i need to know the history of how the city was established and every single conflict they had that's not germaine to the story?

if i don't need those things and the story works without that 'knowledge,' how is adding to it going to improve my reading experience? if you feel the need to add more details you think i'll find cool, great, pass the kool aid, but let's not overdo it, eh?

if you feel your story is flat, be sure that your hero isn't just being dragged along by the plot as opposed to actually doing things that will fulfill his quest, whatever that may be. your hero has got to make decisions for himself, he just can't constantly step into a tavern and run into the mysterious stranger with all the answers. he decides to do something and enters a new situation where we learn more about the world. and show what that world is.

biff decides to follow his destiny as 'the next in line as the chosen one,' and has to go to the armoury office to apply for an adventurer's license, which the bank requires in order to give him a loan to get started, as he can't even buy a sword without some coin. the armoury office makes him fill out form after form, then tells him he has to wait three weeks for 'processing.' in the meantime, he can obtain his adventurer's certification at the training grounds. the trainer asks about the whereabouts of his sword. biff explains that he doesn't have a sword to finish the training to get his certificate to get his adventurer's license to get a loan to buy a sword!

during this time, i imagine i'd be pretty well entertained, learn a lot about biff and about the kind of world he lives in. if, on the other hand, you want to toss in a few details about the luxury carriage trundling by, that's fine, too.

i could go on....